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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Acoustics / May 2007



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Advice please - how can I deal with this noise?

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brian - 21 May 2007 13:04 GMT
(I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
I'm trying again)

I'd welcome some advice on this noise problem.

The man in the flat above me has breathing problems and has to use
something called an 'oxygen concentrator'. Every few seconds, it
makes
a sort of thudding sound. To give you an idea of the frequency of the
sound it produces, I'll give the size of the machine: it's about 1ft
6ins tall, 1ft wide and about 1ft deep, and the outer case is tough
plastic.

Because of the noise it makes, he himself sleeps in the living-room,
with the machine in his bedroom - which is above my bedroom. There is
nowhere else in his flat where he can put it.

We both thought about how to stop the sound coming through my
ceiling,
and I hit upon putting a wooden board, 2ft x 4ft x 0.5inches, on the
double bed in that room, and putting the machine on top of this, with
a
carpet tile between the machine and the board.

I'd hoped that, with the bed between the machine and the floor, the
sound would be stopped completely, but unfortunately, I can still
hear
the sound coming through my ceiling. The sound it now *very* slight -
I'd say only about 5-10% of what it was, but it's so regular, I can't
help but listen out for it, like a dripping tap, and it's driving me
crazy!  I can even hear it wearing earplugs, probably because of its
low frequency.

So I'm writing here to ask if anyone here can suggest how to get rid
of
that last bit of sound. The machine itself actually doesn't make that
much noise when you're in the same room as it is - it's only in my
bedroom that the slight clicking/tapping it makes becomes something
more like 'thudding'.

The machine is so quiet that I can't understand why putting it on the
bed hasn't stopped the sound completely - I was wondering if perhaps
the board I've put it on is acting as a sounding-board. If this is
the
case, would a smaller piece of board be better? (but it can't be too
small, or else the machine won't balance on the mattress). Or a
thicker
piece of board than 0.5 inches?

My other idea was to cover the whole board with thick foam rubber.
One
problem here is that the machine has an air inlet underneath it, so
putting it on a very soft surface would result in it sinking and
blocking this intake. I was thinking of the sort of rubber mats they
have in gyms.

Another idea I had was to use a grid of wooden rods, or a metal grid,
covered
with foam or carpet - I thought this would resonate less than a wooden
board.

I'd greatly appreciate any advice anyone here can give me. The
sound is now so slight that I can only just hear it, so it might be
possible to remove it altogether. I hope so - I'm having to wear foam
earplugs to get to sleep, and I hate living like this.

Thanks in advance

Brian
Dirk Van de moortel - 21 May 2007 13:23 GMT
> (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
> I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance

Can't you make it *hang* from his ceiling in some way?

Dirk Vdm
Greg Neill - 21 May 2007 13:26 GMT
[snip]

> I'd greatly appreciate any advice anyone here can give me. The
> sound is now so slight that I can only just hear it, so it might be
> possible to remove it altogether. I hope so - I'm having to wear foam
> earplugs to get to sleep, and I hate living like this.

Suspend the machine on hooks from the ceiling, thus
shifting the problem to the upstairs neighbor.  ;-)
Greg Locock - 23 May 2007 11:15 GMT
"Greg Neill" <gneillREM@OVEsympatico.ca> wrote in news:46518f52$0$28130
$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com:

> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Suspend the machine on hooks from the ceiling, thus
> shifting the problem to the upstairs neighbor.  ;-)

Nearly there ...

Hanging on bungee cord.
brian a m stuckless - 21 May 2007 14:33 GMT
$                 Condo (apt) noises and ReSELL-value
> (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
> I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance > Brian            [GOLDEN calf.jpg attached].

Re:            Condo (apt) noises and ReSELL-value
$$  Yes ..almost every condominium (condo) apartment, is like that.
$$  [But, the more-you-pay the less-you-mention it, due to resell].

$$  You are renting or you wouldN'T be complaining on the internet.

$$  Re: Advice please - how can I ReSELL with CONDO-overhead NOiSE?
$$  [You ONLY-ever *BUY* the "top-flat"-condo ..more ReSELL-value].
Sam Wormley - 21 May 2007 14:50 GMT
> (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
> I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Brian

  I'd see is the sponsoring entity can replace the 'oxygen concentrator'
  as they are not supposed to make a periodic "hudding sound". Isolation
  of sound--piece of cardboard (several layers) should be effective.
malibu - 21 May 2007 15:36 GMT
> (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
> I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Brian

Why is there nowhere else in his
flat he can put it?
brian - 21 May 2007 16:34 GMT
> > (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
> > I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Because his flat, like mine, has just one bedroom, and a living-room.
He and his wife both sleep in the living-room (to stay away from the
machine's noise). If they slept in the bedroom, they'd have to move
the machine into the living-room every night (and as they're both in
their nineties, that's not really feasible).

And as their flat's rented, I don't think they could get permission to
hang the machine from the ceiling - and I certainly wouldn't have the
nerve to ask them to, as they've been very helpful up to now, and I'd
hate to push my luck!
Greg Locock - 23 May 2007 11:19 GMT
brian <brianqsmails@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1179761649.633069.133300
@y2g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> Because his flat, like mine, has just one bedroom, and a living-room.
> He and his wife both sleep in the living-room (to stay away from the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nerve to ask them to, as they've been very helpful up to now, and I'd
> hate to push my luck!

Build a wooden frame. From this use 3 or 4 long elastic straps to hold the
pump off the floor. The bounce frequency of the system needs to be less
than half of the frequency of the pump, ideally, but I suspect it will help
anyway.
Angelo Campanella - 31 May 2007 04:49 GMT
> brian <brianqsmails@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1179761649.633069.133300
> @y2g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>the machine into the living-room every night (and as they're both in
>>their nineties, that's not really feasible).

ou need a very soft support

> Build a wooden frame. From this use 3 or 4 long elastic straps to hold the
> pump off the floor. The bounce frequency of the system needs to be less
> than half of the frequency of the pump, ideally, but I suspect it will help
> anyway.

That;s pretty close.

The origianl thought (board on carpet has the wrong parameters; too big
and too hard (one thin carpet).

Firstly, I would set it on a plate or board about the same size as the
pump footprint, just to get a firm base.

    Then I would set all that on a pillow.

    That will satisfy the "less than half the frequency of the pump"
criterion. Actually if you want 30 to 40 dB of attenuation, you need to
have a resonance frequency (unit on pillow) ten times lower than the
vibration frequency of the pump. (Princess and the pea sort of support).

    You can supply the pillow or equivalent.

Angelo campanella
Uncle Al - 21 May 2007 16:23 GMT
> (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
> I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> with the machine in his bedroom - which is above my bedroom. There is
> nowhere else in his flat where he can put it.

[snip whining]

Put the box in the livingroom and the meat in his bedroom.  Stick it
on a couple of big fluffy pillows on the couch.

Signature

Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

Noral Stewart - 21 May 2007 22:48 GMT
First, congratulations on achieving some very signicant noise reduction.
However, as you have found, for this particular sound, the amount of
reduction can be irrelevant if it is still audible because of the
attention-getting nature of the sound.  I have seen a situation where music
was being attenuated by over 80 dB, but the bass thump was still audible.
At this point, it could be difficult getting further reduction.  I suggest
you see if you can find a fan or something that will make a little steady
noise to cover up the thumping sound.  You will need something that can
produce sound at the same frequency or pitch as the offending sound which
may be difficult.  Of course this only works if you have gotten the
offending noise down to the point it can be masked by a sound without that
sound itself becoming a problem.

> (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
> I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Brian
Rich - 21 May 2007 23:17 GMT
> First, congratulations on achieving some very signicant noise reduction.
> However, as you have found, for this particular sound, the amount of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> offending noise down to the point it can be masked by a sound without that
> sound itself becoming a problem.

There are plenty of white noise generators available and some that make
ocean sounds. Perhaps one of the more advanced models, if it has a tone
control (which you can crank all the way down) would be adequate to
mask the remaining sound. The ocean sound is irregular and might work
well.

Sound deadening materials will affect the high frequencies, but the low
frequencies are travel through the walls. I would think the only way
to reduce them would be to physically isolate the source from the floor,
or at least place it on some material that does not transmit vibrations
well. I wonder is a platform could be built from which the generator
could be suspended by wires? Then maybe some foam underneath?

Good luck,

Rich

>> (I posted this a few months ago, but only got a couple of replies, so
>> I'm trying again)
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>>
>> Brian
Tony - 21 May 2007 23:23 GMT
>> The man in the flat above me has breathing problems and has to use
>> something called an 'oxygen concentrator'. Every few seconds, it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> 6ins tall, 1ft wide and about 1ft deep, and the outer case is tough
>> plastic.
(snip)
>> the sound coming through my ceiling. The sound it now *very* slight -
>> I'd say only about 5-10% of what it was, but it's so regular, I can't
>> help but listen out for it, like a dripping tap, and it's driving me
>> crazy!  I can even hear it wearing earplugs, probably because of its
>> low frequency.

If the low frequency element of the noise is really all that is now coming
through, then probably the vibration is coming through the structure despite
your resilient mounting on the bed.  What you need is a flexible mounting
that compresses by quite a large amount under the weight of the machine, at
least several inches.  So a smaller board under the machine might help.  The
board should be just large enough so that the machine is stable, no larger.
You can add weight to keep it stable while allowing more compression of the
bed.  It will also help if is not well damped, i.e. if you move the machine
it should continue to bounce (slowly) for quite a few cycles before it
stops.  Also look for vibration of any tubes or stiff wires that are
attached to the machine and might transfer the vibration to the floor,
by-passing the bed.   It's quite possible that a natural vibration of the
floor is amplifying the noise, especially if the bed is not next to a wall
that the joists connect to.

There are higher-tech solutions - a spring mattress is far from being a
perfect isolator as it will itself have lots of ways to vibrate and some of
them might coincide in frequency with the vibration you are trying to
isolate.  Still it should be pretty good, and to do better you would have to
employ a professional to come and make measurements.

The problem is probably occurring because of the quiet background noise at
night, just as one hears distant traffic and trains at night that are
inaudible during the day.  Therefore Noral's suggestion of masking noise is
a good one.  But it won't work very well unless the masking noise is as low
frequency as what you are trying to mask.  That might require quite a hi-fi
loudspeaker, as fans and such like don't produce much low frequency noise.

Signature

Tony W
My e-mail address has no hyphen
- but please don't use it, reply to the group.

 
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