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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Acoustics / December 2008



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How to measure footstep vibration and noise?

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esmith591@gmail.com - 28 Nov 2008 16:10 GMT
I am on the board of a NYC co-op apartment.  Residents of the building
have ongoing issues with excessive noise and vibration resulting from
inadequate floor coverings and unrestrained activity of children in
apartments on the floor above.  Some noise in communal living is
expected.  However, there are situations which seem out of control.
What, if any, equipment is available that could provide an effective
measure of this type of impact/vibration noise so that our residents
are not forced into situations where one person's word is pitted
against another's?

I know very little about electronics so simple explanations would be
extremely helpful.  Would a seismometer be useful?  Something using an
accelerometer?  It doesn't seem like an ordinary noise meter would
register the problem when the jarring vibrations of the impact are
frequently more the issue than the actual noise.  And just how
prohibitively expensive would such equipment be?

Thank you.
Ethan Winer - 29 Nov 2008 14:45 GMT
I'm sure the real experts will chime in soon enough, but it seems to me a
standard $50 Radio Shack SPL meter would do the job. I understand that some
of the noise is felt as much as heard, but it still should register on an
SPL meter. The larger question is not how to measure the noise, which you
already know is intrusive, but finding a solution that doesn't cost $15,000
per apartment for new floated floors etc.

--Ethan
Asbjørn - 29 Nov 2008 19:36 GMT
> I'm sure the real experts will chime in soon enough, but it seems to me a
> standard $50 Radio Shack SPL meter would do the job. I understand that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> --Ethan

Over here you would need a quite expensive Tapping Machine and a Sound Level
Meter with 1/3-octave band filters,
but I will leave this to the experts who are more familiar with your
regulations.

- Asbjørn
Tony - 30 Nov 2008 11:20 GMT
> I am on the board of a NYC co-op apartment.  Residents of the building
> have ongoing issues with excessive noise and vibration resulting from
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> are not forced into situations where one person's word is pitted
> against another's?

With a general move away from fitted carpets and towards hard floor
coverings there has been a great increase in noise problems in apartments.
Often leases or contracts require people to fit carpets but are ignored - I
suggest this is the first point to check.  Where hard floor finishes are
part of the building design, architects should incorporate resilient
isolation, but even if the architect complies with the building code there
can easily be interference with neighbours if there are young children in
the upper apartment.

There are two questions here: one about building construction and carpets,
and the other about people's behaviour.  These aspects are addressed by
different measurement methods.

Building construction is tested by making a standardised impact with a
tapping machine, and measuring the sound level in the room below.  The
tapping machine noise is not much like human footsteps (imagine a lot of
cats wearing clogs) but it is standard and we know how to interpret the
results.

The other aspect is the actual noise and vibration.  Modern sound level
meters allow noise to be measured and the actual sound to be recorded over
long periods, and this is often necessary in noise from neighbours disputes.
If there is serious disagreement the meter can be put in a locked case so
that it cannot be interfered with.  It is of course also possible to measure
vibration, but this is not usual, because if the vibration from footsteps is
a problem, the noise will usually be a worse problem.  For vibration, you
have to think about making sure that you are measuring it from the right
source, and not from local footsteps, traffic etc.  Also it can be more
disruptive because you really have to access the main floor slab without any
soft or resilient covering.

In both cases there is a problem in interpreting the results.  For the
building there are probably no statutory requirements unless it is new.  For
the actual noise and vibration, it can be difficult to agree on what is an
acceptable level, although if it is bad enough this could be fairly obvious.
There are a number of possible guidelines for acceptable levels, but I think
there is nothing definitive.

It looks to me as if you will need professional consultancy.  But before you
get any measurements done, do make sure you know what to do with the
results.  Otherwise you could end up with a lot of expensively acquired
data, but no agreement on what it means and what should be done about any
problems.

Finally, with noise from neighbours the solution is rarely just technical.
I have come across situations where a technical fix solved the problem even
though the neighbours were still not on good terms, but this is rare.
Usually to get a satisfactory resolution, it is necessary to come to some
understanding with the neighbours, even if you have to agree to disagree on
certain points.
Signature

Tony W

esmith591@gmail.com - 01 Dec 2008 02:18 GMT
Thank you all.  We do understand that these situations need to be
addressed by a combination of house rules and behavior modification
more than technical solutions.  Currently, our house rules require 80%
of the floor to be covered but do not specify thickness or material.
When one set of neighbors has complied by covering the appropriate
area, the difficulty usually arises from the behavior, and it's
usually perceived differently from one floor to the other.  We would
be looking for a way to assist in mediation by using the data to
demonstrate to the offenders that the complainants are not being
overly sensitive or, conversely, to demonstrate to the complainants
that their situation is not out of the norm.  We're aware that there
are probably not interpretive standards but hope that if the equipment
isn't too expensive, people of good will might be able to use it to
come to some common understanding before things escalate into noise
wars.

One of our members has a sound meter from Radio Shack, but it doesn't
seem to have any way to output the data.  I'll do some more research.
Savant - 02 Dec 2008 15:13 GMT
On Nov 30, 8:18 pm, esmith...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thank you all.  We do understand that these situations need to be
> addressed by a combination of house rules and behavior modification
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> One of our members has a sound meter from Radio Shack, but it doesn't
> seem to have any way to output the data.  I'll do some more research.

As alluded to above, there are measurement standards for determining
the impact isolation of floor / ceiling systems. Any good acoustical
consultant can perform the measurement and evaluation of the floor /
ceiling system(s) in question, including the proper execution of
standardized tests. If the board is disinclined to pay for testing (it
won't be cheap), they should still consult with an acoustical
consultant (i.e., expert). Even if all the consultant is hired to do
is inspect the floor / ceiling system and perform a cursory
evaluation, it's better than DIY. Refer to www.ncac.com or www.inceusa.org
for qualified consultants / experts in your area.

More to the point is what sort of modifications are going to be
acceptable to residents. To improve the situation, modifications (to
behavior and/or flooring and/or construction and/or ...) will be
necessary and it's unlikely that all parties will be openly receptive
to them. Considering that, I would advise consultation with an expert,
who can provide details of all possible modifications. Once the
expert's report and findings have been received, they can be presented
to the board / association / residents (however that works for your
group). Whatever your formal process dictates (e.g., a vote?) usually
takes over from there.

Savant
esmith591@gmail.com - 09 Dec 2008 13:27 GMT
Thank you, Savant, for the info and the links to the consultants.
Angelo Campanella - 12 Dec 2008 05:47 GMT
> Thank you all.  We do understand that these situations need to be
> addressed by a combination of house rules and behavior modification
> more than technical solutions.  Currently, our house rules require 80%
> of the floor to be covered but do not specify thickness or material.

    Aye, there's the rub. Success depends on which 85% is actually fitted
with carpet. I always add "... including as a minimum, all foot traffic
areas". It's very important that the occupants above realize that its
not where one might want to protect the floor, but importantly where a
vigorous pace rate will develop in traveling from place to another on
that floor surface.

    A second sore spot is under chairs at tables ofen used; chair scrapes
are similarly annoying as heard below.

    Ther's no easy way to mitigate this matter once it is allowed that
upper units be occupied where the effective AIIC value is below 60.
Sorry, that's the environment we live in today.

> When one set of neighbors has complied by covering the appropriate
> area, the difficulty usually arises from the behavior, and it's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> come to some common understanding before things escalate into noise
> wars.

    My option is to live in a single family dwelling.

> One of our members has a sound meter from Radio Shack, but it doesn't
> seem to have any way to output the data.  I'll do some more research.

    Correct. he radio shack meter measures only down to 50 dBA. If you set
it on the C-scale there is effectively some more sensitivity. For wood
joist floors, it may well pick up the footfall "boom" OK. But for
masonry floor/ceilings, its the mid frequecy "tock-tock" sounds that
really irritate in my expereince, and which are not all that strong,
even when measured on the C-scale. It's a nasy situation.

    Angelo campanella
 
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