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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Acoustics / December 2004acoustics education
can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio acoustics. also, what good books are there that give a good introduction to sound and vibration. thanks > can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, > mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio > acoustics. Can't help on these subjects, but > what good books are there that give a good introduction to sound and > vibration. If you want a mathematical discussion of the subject, then get Fundamentals of Acoustics: Kinsler, Frey, Coppens & Sanders Music, Physics and Engineering: Harry F. Olson If you want a non-mathematical discussion, then get Master Handbook of Acoustics: F. Alton Everest Regards Chris W  SignatureThe voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of the wise are quiet and few. -- if i may, i'd add "Fundamentals of noise and vibration analysis for engineers" by M.P. Norton nice book, reads like a textbook and not as accessible as Everest, but covers some theoretical, and some practical aspects of sound transmission and raditation, and so forth. and "Sound and structural vibration: radiation, transmission, and respons" by F.J. Fahy also a nice book :) > can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, > mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio > acoustics. It *really* depends on the specifics, but off the top of my head (in no particular order): Boston University Penn State Purdue University of Miami University of Hartford University of Salford (UK) University of Southampton (UK) I know that Dartmouth and Cal Berkeley have acoustics classes, but I don't know how in-depth their programs are. MIT has lots of classes in various degree programs that cover different aspects of acoustics, but it no longer has an overall acoustics program. > also, > > what good books are there that give a good introduction to sound and > vibration. Chris gave some good books. Herb SignatureHerb Singleton usenet3@ross-specrtrum.com Sound & Vibration Measurements http://www.cross-spectrum.com > can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, > mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio > acoustics. Herb gave you a list of schools. Most acoustics engineering programs are at the graduate level, and most are within departments of mechanical engineering. Penn State has a graduate department of Acoustical Engineering. Univ. of Hartford has an undergraduate specialization in acoustics with an engineering degree. Some other schools can work out special programs. These programs usually do not have courses in audio. I believe the program at Johns Hopkins/Peabody has a significant audio component. For audiology or psychoacoustics, you would have to find a school that also has an audiology program or a psychology professor with psychoacoustics interest. You could possibly put together a minor in one of these areas. > also, > > what good books are there that give a good introduction to sound and > vibration. > > thanks You can find brief comments on some currently available books here. http://www.sacnc.com/books.html > can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, > mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio > acoustics. Hi, Physics of acoustics is physics of sound waves in media or fluids. That means any book about fluid dynamic is right to the point. Sound waves could be initiated by different sources and go though different media, like electrical source and you can find a lot _GOOD_ stuff in physics of atmosphere if you care about open air or in physics of solids if you care about sounds in metal or other solids. The best school is the best school of applied mechanics. I think, MIT is up to the point. What do you mean psychoacoustics? If you mean as parts of human body, like human internals vibrate under sound of low frequency, that is _NOT_ textbooks stuff. > also, > > what good books are there that give a good introduction to sound and > vibration. The best intro into the topic is course of general physics, chapters about waves and acoustics. Read prof Richard Feynman Acoustics book. It is really short and clear book. Good luck, Alex > thanks >> can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, >> mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio >> acoustics. I got my education from the technical University of Denmark. It's recommendable. > What do you mean psychoacoustics? If you mean as parts of human body, > like human internals vibrate under sound of low frequency, that is > _NOT_ textbooks stuff. Psycho-acoustics is the science about the perception of sound. It has its special section in JASA. I am surprised that you haven't heard about it. best regards Peter > >> can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, > >> mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > best regards > Peter Hi Peter, Never was involved in sound perception. Sorry. Have more experience out of human body. That is really interesting topic how sound and human emotions are linked together, isn't it? Sorry, can not advise anything about that, but that is interesting field. Good luck, Alex [snip] >school is the best school of applied mechanics. I think, MIT is up to >the point. Speaking of MIT, they are the leader of the recently created FAA Center of Excellence for Aircraft Noise and Aviation Emissions Mitigation. It's a university-based organization: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2003/faa-1001.html Look to the universities that are part of the group. Some are there because of air emissions, some because of acoustics. >What do you mean psychoacoustics? If you mean as parts of human body, >like human internals vibrate under sound of low frequency, that is >_NOT_ textbooks stuff. He means how people perceive sound: loudness, response, etc. It's not a huge field, but it's well established. There are texts, like Kryter's book and Green's book. FWIW, Penn State has some very good people who work in psychoacoustics, and are part of the Center of Excellence's teams that are looking at low frequency noise annoyance and the acceptability of shaped sonic booms. Ken Plotkin > >What do you mean psychoacoustics? If you mean as parts of human body, > >like human internals vibrate under sound of low frequency, that is [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ken Plotkin Hi Ken, Thanks for comments, I interpret the topic as brutal 'science' for experiments on human, like to find resonance frequency for particular human body internal. For our ugly days with terrorists threads I didn't like to advertise the topic. Your interpretation makes sense. I never meet psychoacoustics in my practical work, but it is really interesting topic, for instance, to find deterministic explanation why we react differently for nice music and motor vibration, even if both sounds have close frequency and loudness parameters. Thanks for comments, Alex >Thanks for comments, I interpret the topic as brutal 'science' for >experiments on human, like to find resonance frequency for particular [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >sounds have close frequency and loudness parameters. >Thanks for comments, The brutal part about psychoacoustics is having to work with psychologists. The only time in my career that I was driven to tears was dealing with our psychologist while setting up a psychoacoustics experiment. And he was one of the very best psychoacousticans in the world, far more practical than most of them. A colleague who managed the next experiment eventually dealt with impracticalities by shifting discussion to just how one could dispose of a body. That colleague went on to do limit-of-noise-tolerance experiments, more in the realm you're thinking of. Very interesting which parts of the body scream "Uncle!!" at various frequencies and levels. Ken Plotkin > The brutal part about psychoacoustics is having to work with > psychologists. The only time in my career that I was driven to tears [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ken Plotkin Hi Ken, I met at once my old colleague who used to work to setup psychoacoustics. The purpose of the experiment was to secure relative big areas like airfield, with limited number of troops. That was his experience about early 1970x from South Asia. Very brutal science. After that old conversation I made a conclusion for myself never ever to work in psychoacoustic field. I can not tolerate work to destroy human body even that is not by guillotine but by acoustic wave. I see in discussion much more peaceful usage of the psychoacoustics. Nice to know about that. But,btw, if we touched this area, do you know about some experiments to explain why we hear something special in voices of our loveones? I see, I can logically explain that but interesting to see mathematical explanation supported by direct measurements. Regards, Alex I believe you are confusing psychological acoustics and physiological acoustics. Psychological has to do with perception of sound or how we as humans mentally and emotionally react to sound. Physiological has to do with physical effects on the body. >> The brutal part about psychoacoustics is having to work with >> psychologists. The only time in my career that I was driven to tears [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Regards, > Alex > I believe you are confusing psychological acoustics and physiological > acoustics. Psychological has to do with perception of sound or how we as > humans mentally and emotionally react to sound. Physiological has to do > with physical effects on the body. Noral, You are right, I mixed two different chapters in my mind :). That was physiological story, very brutal science :(. BTW, hearing aid is physiological science or psychological one? I'm interesting to read some serious research about psychological acoustic. I want to get into math in that area and find some way to make direct measurements to proof the math. Do you know about that kind of research? Will appreciate your comments. Regards, Alex Hearing aid design would depend on knowledge of electroacoustics and the physiology of hearing which is also part of audiology. The study of hearing and speech mechanisms fits into physiological acoustics though within the Acoustical Society of America the speech research has its own committee. You might find this webpage and the links on it useful. http://asa.aip.org/committees.html These are the various technical committees of ASA. I do not know that there is any deep math in the psychological and physiological acoustics areas, though statistics are certainly used in data analysis. >> I believe you are confusing psychological acoustics and physiological >> acoustics. Psychological has to do with perception of sound or how we as [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Regards, > Alex > Hearing aid design would depend on knowledge of electroacoustics and the > physiology of hearing which is also part of audiology. The study of hearing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > psychological and physiological acoustics areas, though statistics are > certainly used in data analysis. Noral, Thanks for quick and full answer. But you set a puzzle for me. I thought my research approach is not unique: 1. recognize wave sources; 2. describe wave sources mathematically; 3. recognize all surfaces and objects in the problem; 4. describe them in math; 5. solve interaction problem between waves, surfaces and other objects in problem; 6. set an experiment and correlate theory based on experiment data. I used that approach in my science research and applications development successfully for years and all my colleagues used the similar ones. Accordingly your post, guys in physiological acoustics avoid do the math work and start from experiments immediately. That is strange for me. Do you remember, some of the greatest researchers said, that science starts when people start to use math to describe phenomena (not just statistics, but math as a general science). The math makes from collection of facts and conclusions not the set of independent observations, but science. I see psychological acoustic is not a science yet, but still in the beginning of its development. Great for guys who will start with that and convert sets of independent facts and conclusion into serious science of psychological acoustics. Thanks for input, Alex The method you decribe works for physical phenomena. When I was in engineering school, I had the idea that mathematical and physical sciences were the only true sciences. However, later I realized that the biological and social sciences were actually more challenging because you could not easily model human reactions. >> Hearing aid design would depend on knowledge of electroacoustics and the >> physiology of hearing which is also part of audiology. The study of [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Thanks for input, > Alex > The method you decribe works for physical phenomena. When I was in > engineering school, I had the idea that mathematical and physical sciences > were the only true sciences. However, later I realized that the biological > and social sciences were actually more challenging because you could not > easily model human reactions. But human body and all its internals are not more then complex mechanical-chemical system that still controls by well known natural forces what were classified some time ago as forces of close range and long range. For my understanding, our bodies behave as any others physical/chemical objects. The world is deterministic. The problem is not all forces inside of us known well enough, and may be not going to be known well enough, because sometime to measure something you have to set a sensor into the place and sensor could kill/destroy the research object. Something like in quantum mechanics: the one cannot know about particle position and velocity at same time. Just one parameter the one can measure, not both. My point is math and physics, as you mention, are more developed sciences then others areas, like biology or social science, but that is not because non-physics and non-math are fundamentally different. They are same as ones, but have more challenges to make direct measurements. That is challenge, to measure something in living body and do not destroy one. But still, for instance, from acoustic perspective, the one can simulate human body as set of connected geometrical forms made from different materials with different properties placed into water solution, and some have contact with external air. Necessary just imply general physics and math to the biology objects to get incredible results. Social science is different. That is more close to quantum mechanics and statistical one. But still same nature as in non organic world: electromagnetic forces, nuclei forces, and etc. There are no specific for organic/social worlds forces, all of them the one can find in non-organic environment. The nova days progress in science of DNA still based on old math and physics, but for some reason, researchers in old times were not too intuitive as modern ones to view on their research subject as on everything else. The difference between biology of 18-19 centuries and biology of our days is because in old times people look on their subject as on something special and they catch new insects, for instance, and described insects size, color, behavior. Today we know why insects have that color, what kind of chemical reactions regulate insects behavior, why they prefer some diet, but can eat some others species in case of hungry/starvations only. Certainly, not everything we know about insects and that is challenge- to find well known phenomena behind of living organism. One more time about my point: the nature is deterministic and to discovery internal mechanisms in some not very well described areas, like biology or social science, researchers have to find well known nature behind of non obvious cover and find the way to measure that. That is challenge. And people in psychological acoustic, I think, so far just did not find some associations between, for instance, human emotions, and parameters of lovely voices. Certainly, there are. The world is deterministic, but find that is challenge. Regards, Alex > physical/chemical objects. The world is deterministic. The problem is > not all forces inside of us known well enough, and may be not going to > be known well enough, because sometime to measure something you have > to set a sensor into the place and sensor could kill/destroy the > research object. That works for dynamic systems such as reaction rates of chemical reactions and analog movements. > The nova days progress in science of DNA still based on old math and > physics, but for some reason, researchers in old times were not too [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > we know about insects and that is challenge- to find well known > phenomena behind of living organism. You might recall that Boolean Algebra differs from linear algebra in striking ways. Neither can replace the other. I am of the opinion that genetics and mutations are based on Boolean algebra and its derivatives & extensions, as yet undiscovered. > One more time about my point: the nature is deterministic and to > discovery internal mechanisms in some not very well described areas, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > emotions, and parameters of lovely voices. Certainly, there are. The > world is deterministic, but find that is challenge. Boolean Algebra combined with speculative permutations and combinations of possibilities and their outcomes will be a favored sport in biological engineering for some years to come, IMHO. Angelo Campanella > can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, > mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio > acoustics. Penn State has it all! Check their web site. Angelo Campanella > can anyone give me some info on some acoustics engineering schools, > mainly focusing on audiology, psychoacoustics and electrical/audio [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > thanks Have a look at http://asa.aip.org/asagrad/gpdir.cm.html and http://asa.aip.org/links.aca.html in http://asa.aip.org/map_education.html Kari Pesonen thanks a lot guys you've been really helpful. i looked around and found that University of Oldenburg, in northern Germany has a well establish psychoacoustics program. Penn states seems to be at the top also. I still have to decide what exactly i want to focus on acoustics. I'm getting there. > Penn states seems to be at the top also. I still have to decide what > exactly i want to focus on acoustics. I'm getting there. Feel free to discuss it here. We will fill you in any any questions, etc. What are your present hobbies? Angelo Campanella > Feel free to discuss it here. We will fill you in any any questions, > etc. What are your present hobbies? > > Angelo Campanella well, for expample, with psychoacoustics, does it deal with human perception of sound, and, with the things that interest me more, does it have anything to do with hearing aids? i think that would be cool to model things dealing with hearing. i'm looking more on the engineering side of it, i like things practical, but research is also cool. i'm not quite sure if i'm the man for it though. i play guitar, i've been playing for a while now, over 10 years. started off with classical and now i'm really into jazz, and also everything else in-between. i also love to skateboard. another thing that i would like to maybe learn is the electrical part of acoustics. DSP and speakers, mics, headphones. i think right now, that's the struggle, either psychoacoustics or the electrical part of it. can i do both? thanks Paul > well, for expample, with psychoacoustics, does it deal with human > perception of sound, and, with the things that interest me more It is indeed that. Perception, reaction to, affected by, etc. For instance, the reaction to sound such as complaints about airport noise, and complaints about modern (rock) music going into residential neighborhoods, and what to expect from such folks is psychological acoustics. Now, the noise control to reduce that such as barriers, etc. is really physical acoustics or more generally noise control engineering. > does > it have anything to do with hearing aids? i think that would be cool > to model things dealing with hearing. Hearing aids is both audiology (design and fitting of them), while the detailed design and production is largely electrical engineering. > i'm looking more on the > engineering side of it, i like things practical, but research is also > cool. i'm not quite sure if i'm the man for it though. That depends on how good you are with quantitative things. The main indicator at earlier ages is whether you do well in math. If it is natural to you, you will do OK in any engineering. But is algebra blows you mind (can't do it) forget about any of the hard sciences. Psychology is OK, though. > i play guitar, i've been playing for a while now, over 10 years. > started off with classical and now i'm really into jazz, and also > everything else in-between. Most acousticians I know dabble to some extent in music. Some are very good and make it to community orchestras, etc. But it remains a hobby, usually life-long, and not their primary profession. They probably know they are among the many that are mediocre in music talent, and would have a very difficult to impossible time making a living at it. So it remains a hobby. > i also love to skateboard. Indicates physical ability. You would do well in field expeditions to obtain rare data. > another thing that i would like to maybe learn is the electrical part > of acoustics. DSP and speakers, mics, headphones. That means you must learn some electrical engineering. > i think right now, > that's the struggle, either psychoacoustics or the electrical part of > it. can i do both? You certainly can. You can take elective courses when in college. The only barrier is that for each such course, you must have the prerequisite experience to qualify to take it. Typically math for most engineering courses, and often a more basic couse to lay a foundation. If you have money support, you can go 5 years instead of four, the last two years combing rounding out credits to achieve the major degree and taking electives to get your minor satisfied. I went on to grad scholl and took my electrical engineering electives then. Undergrad, I took math and literature electives. In Grad school I took EE electives, microwaves (like acoustics), servomechanisms and computers. Ang. C. > well, for expample, with psychoacoustics, does it deal with human > perception of sound, and, with the things that interest me more, does [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > that's the struggle, either psychoacoustics or the electrical part of > it. can i do both? One of the strongest places for hearing aids is Denmark, home of three out of the six dominant manufacturers (35% - 40% of the world market). The danish education within acoustics is largely based at the engineering university departments (http://www.oersted.dtu.dk/ and http://esn.aau.dk/masters/), and organised within the electronic sector. It means that you can easily combine DSP and acoustics, both electro-acoustics and psycho-acoustics. best regards Peter another question: in what fields/companies do you guys work? I'm interested to know the job prospects. paul > another question: > in what fields/companies do you guys work? I'm interested to know the job prospects. Anything that produces a fee. (Consulting.) Ang. C. ballsjohnson@hotmail.com (wiggie) wrote: > another question: > in what fields/companies do you guys work? I'm interested to know the > job prospects. I work for a hearing aid manufacturer. However, I'll soon switch to the headset industry. best regards Peter Here is a link to a French Research laboratory in Marseille France (Laboratoire de Mécanique et d'Acoustique) that researches in some of the fields mentionned. Their research activities and publications will give you an idea of what is done in the different domains of Acoustics (Elastic waves and Inverse problems, psychoacoustics , modelling synthesis and control of sound, computer music and digital audio effects, physics of musical instruments....) and Mechanics. The Laboratory is also asociated with several Masters and PhD learning in Mechanics and Acoustics http://www.lma.cnrs-mrs.fr/ens.htm. Wuod Aketch >> another question: >> in what fields/companies do you guys work? I'm interested to know the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > best regards > Peter Here is the link of the lab forgotten in the previous mail http://www.lma.cnrs-mrs.fr/ap4.htm Wuod Aketch > Here is a link to a French Research laboratory in Marseille France > (Laboratoire de Mécanique et d'Acoustique) that researches in some of the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> best regards >> Peter "Wuod Aketch" <wuod_aketch@hotmail.com> wrote: > Here is a link to a French Research laboratory in Marseille France > (Laboratoire de Mécanique et d'Acoustique) that researches in some of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Wuod Aketch I worked there in 1984 under George Canevet (MMA dans la presence d'un bruit masquant published in Acoustica). My newsreader shows ythe previous post as a response to a posting of mine, even though they are not directly related. But I thought it fun that it accidentially connects me with LMA. best regards Peter |
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