Sound wave reflection in open ended tubes?
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Rory - 15 Feb 2005 14:40 GMT Can anyone explain this to me in very simple terms? How does a sound reflect off thin air? Cheers, Rory
The Ghost - 16 Feb 2005 02:11 GMT > Can anyone explain this to me in very simple terms? How does a sound > reflect off thin air? Cheers, > Rory I can not explain it in simple terms. Perhaps someone else can.
In a constant diameter, infinitely long tube, dynamic pressure and dynamic particle velocity are related to each other by a constant of proportionality called the characteristic impedance of the tube. Acoustic impedance is defined as the ratio of pressure to volume velocity. A cap on the end of the tube represents a condition of high impedance and imposes the requirement that pressure be high and that particle velocity be low at the plane of the cap. Similarly, an open end represents a condition of low impedance and imposes the requirement that pressure be low and that particle velocity be high at the plane of the opening. Both of these conditions impose an abrupt change in the relationship between pressure and partical velocity as the wave travels down the tube. It is the abrupt change in the relationsip between pressure and volume velocity that creates the wave reflection, not your so-called "thin air."
The situation of a sound wave traveling in a lossless tube is mathematically identical to electromagnetic wave traveling in a lossless transmission line. The capped tube is analogous to an very high impedance at the end of the electrical transmission line, and an open tube is analogous to a very low impedance at the end of the electrical transmission line. In both cases wave reflection will occurr. The only case in which wave reflection will not occur is when the transmission line and/or tube is terminated in its characteristic impedance.
lemo5@optonline.net - 17 Feb 2005 14:16 GMT Here is a simple explanation to the rescue, imagine the following, ten nickel, spaced half an inch apart, lined up in a straight line, a drop of glue is placed on the center of each nickel, and a long rubber band is laid down over the nickels, if you now accelerate the firs nickel into the second, the energy (sometimes in the form of a forward moving nickel and sometimes in the form of high pressure nickel) will move from nickel to nickel forward down the line, however once it reaches the front nickel there are no more nickels ahead to allow for nickel pressure buildup, so the nickel wont stop until the energy is turned into rubber band tension, and now you can see that the energy will move backwards down the line (sometimes, as before, in the form of forward moving nickels, and sometimes in the form of tense rubber band sections).
Ken Plotkin - 18 Feb 2005 05:59 GMT >Can anyone explain this to me in very simple terms? How does a sound >reflect off thin air? Cheers, It's not reflecting off thin air. It's reflecting from the open end of the tube.
In the tube, the air is constrained to a column - the sound can't move sideways through the wall. When it reaches the end, the tube is gone and the sound can expand sideways. So at the end the sound changes from being plane waves to being spherical waves.
That process is not 100% efficient (changes always cost you) so not all the energy goes into the spherical wave. The part that does not go into the spherical wave has only one place to go: back into the tube.
Ken Plotkin
Fleetie - 18 Feb 2005 21:54 GMT In the final year of my electroacoustics degree at Salford, in 1992, there was a most wonderful demonstration of this effect. On a road near the halls of residence, there lay a section of about 200 feet of continuous straight yellow plastic gas pipe, about 8 or 10 inches in diameter, that was about to be installed in the road.
I was with a girl, or maybe two of them, can't remember now. I did the obvious, and got one of them to stand at one end and shout down the tube at me, listening at the other end.
It was VERY weird. Not only were there the echoes, but also, the system seemed to be dispersive; high frequencies seemed to arrive slightly before lower frequencies. We stayed playing for ages. I thought the acoustics department ought to have got hold of one of these. It was great.
Martin
 Signature M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890 Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk
Gordo - 19 Feb 2005 00:36 GMT > In the final year of my electroacoustics degree at Salford, in 1992, > there was a most wonderful demonstration of this effect. On a road [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > thought the acoustics department ought to have got hold of one of > these. It was great. The (complex) radiation impedance of a piston in an infinite baffle (a situation quite similar to the open-ended tube under discussion) is quite frequency-dependent. The formula involves Bessel functions and Struve functions. In terms of non-dimensional frequency ka=2*pi*f*a/c, where f=frequency, a=tube radius, and c=speed of sound, the impedance at the end is small and mass-like (i.e., imaginary) for ka<1 (approx.) and approximately equal to the characteristic impedance rho*c (i.e., real) for ka>1. Thus, for frequencies above ka=1, the open end of the pipe is almost non-reflecting. For a 10-inch pipe in air, ka=1 corresponds to about 420 Hz, which is in the frequency range of speech. (Recall that, in music, A above Middle C is 440Hz.)
Gordon Everstine
Chris Whealy - 19 Feb 2005 19:23 GMT > The (complex) radiation impedance of a piston in an infinite baffle (a > situation quite similar to the open-ended tube under discussion) is quite [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Hz, which is in the frequency range of speech. (Recall that, in music, A > above Middle C is 440Hz.) Do you have a breakdown of how a Bessel function can be implemented in a package like Excel? In the standard Excel Add-in (Analysis ToolPak), there is an implementation of the Bessel function, but it does not accept complex parameters.
I would like to extend the functionality of my Porous Absorber spreadsheet to include a micro-perforated panel absorber, but without an implementation of the Bessel function that accepts complex parameters, I am unable to proceed.
Since I'm not a maths wizard, I'm looking for is a breakdown of how a Bessel function (that accepts complex parameters) could be implemented in a language like VBA.
Regards
Chris W
 Signature The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of the wise are quiet and few. --
bert stoltenborg - 19 Feb 2005 21:06 GMT Chris,
Mathcad accepts complex bessels. And it is easier with ranges than excel, IMO. I'm using (now and then) a real old version for loudspeaker simulation.
Bert
> > The (complex) radiation impedance of a piston in an infinite baffle (a > > situation quite similar to the open-ended tube under discussion) is quite [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Do you have a breakdown of how a Bessel function can be implemented in a > package like Excel? In the standard Excel Add-in (Analysis ToolPak),
> there is an implementation of the Bessel function, but it does not > accept complex parameters. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Since I'm not a maths wizard, I'm looking for is a breakdown of how a
> Bessel function (that accepts complex parameters) could be implemented > in a language like VBA. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > but the words of the wise are quiet and few. > -- Chris Whealy - 19 Feb 2005 22:55 GMT > Chris, > > Mathcad accepts complex bessels. And it is easier with ranges than > excel, IMO. I'm using (now and then) a real old version for loudspeaker > simulation. Bert, I've got MATLAB which can handle these calculations fine. But I've already built an Excel spreadsheet that calculates the absorption curve of various constructions of porous absorber (with and without a slotted or perforated front-panel).
I would like to extend the functionality to calculate the absorption curve of a micro-perforated panel. However, this is where Excel lets me down in its implementation of the Bessel function - only real parameters are allowed.
Any ideas...
Regards
Chris W
 Signature The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of the wise are quiet and few. --
Gordo - 20 Feb 2005 03:42 GMT >> The (complex) radiation impedance of a piston in an infinite baffle >> (a situation quite similar to the open-ended tube under discussion) [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Chris W I did my calculations using Fortran, not Excel, and, in any case, for the particular problem of interest, the Bessel functions were all real. If you would give a little more information about what you need (which Bessel functions, which orders, and which arguments), perhaps someone could suggest an algorithm suitable for Excel.
Gordon
Chris Whealy - 20 Feb 2005 20:47 GMT > I did my calculations using Fortran, not Excel, and, in any case, for the > particular problem of interest, the Bessel functions were all real. If you > would give a little more information about what you need (which Bessel > functions, which orders, and which arguments), perhaps someone could suggest > an algorithm suitable for Excel. According to Trevor Cox, the impedance of a micro-perforated panel is calculated using an equation that involves Bessel functions of the first kind and of both the zero and first order. Please look at equation 6.36 on page 181 of Cox's book "Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers". Both the Bessel functions listed here take complex parameters.
The equation 6.36 is as follows:
z1 = j*w*rho*t*(1-2*J1(k'*sqrt(-j))/(k'*sqrt(-j)*J0(k*sqrt(-j))))^-1
Where:
z1 = Acoustic impedance of the tube j = The imaginary unit w = Angular frequency k = Wave number rho = Density of air t = Tube length J1 = Bessel function, first kind, first order J0 = Bessel function, first kind, zero order k' = a*sqrt(rho*w/eta)
Where: a = Tube diameter eta = Viscosity of air
As listed here, the Bessel function both take complex parameters. However, if someone better at maths than me can tell me if the equation can be rearranged so that the sqrt(-j) term can be moved outside the J0() and J1() (similar perhaps to sin(i*a) = i*sinh(a)), then I can implement the calculation using Excel's built-in Bessel function.
Regards
Chris W
 Signature The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of the wise are quiet and few. --
bert stoltenborg - 20 Feb 2005 22:45 GMT I'm not the greatest mathematician ever, but the dissipative factor that is here essential suggests a complex factor? An imaginair factor? Or am I totally stupid? Interesting stuff Chris.... :-)
Bert
> > I did my calculations using Fortran, not Excel, and, in any case, for the > > particular problem of interest, the Bessel functions were all real. If you
> > would give a little more information about what you need (which Bessel > > functions, which orders, and which arguments), perhaps someone could suggest > > an algorithm suitable for Excel. > > According to Trevor Cox, the impedance of a micro-perforated panel is
> calculated using an equation that involves Bessel functions of the first > kind and of both the zero and first order. Please look at equation 6.36 [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > but the words of the wise are quiet and few. > -- Gordo - 21 Feb 2005 04:42 GMT >> I did my calculations using Fortran, not Excel, and, in any case, >> for the particular problem of interest, the Bessel functions were [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Chris W For openers, it would be nice to know what algorithm Matlab uses to calculate complex Bessel functions. Perhaps someone at Mathworks would tell you. However, for your application, you may not need the most efficient approach, just something that gets the job done.
Lacking information about how others compute complex Bessel functions, it appears as if one could calculate a complex Bessel function using the series solution to Bessel's equation. The series solution, which is available in any book that discusses Bessel's equation, is applicable to both real and complex arguments. Since I think you said that you could call a VBA function from Excel, then write a VBA function to evaluate the series, and use enough terms to get the desired accuracy. Your implementation could be verified using Matlab. A nice resource for Bessel function formulas and relations is the Abramowitz and Stegun book, "Handbook of Mathematical Functions." Chapter 9 in that book contains numerous formulas for various ways to express Bessel functions.
BTW, sqrt(-j) is double-valued. Do you know which one you want?
Gordon
Chris Whealy - 21 Feb 2005 10:15 GMT > For openers, it would be nice to know what algorithm Matlab uses to > calculate complex Bessel functions. Perhaps someone at Mathworks would tell > you. However, for your application, you may not need the most efficient > approach, just something that gets the job done. I've tried to examine the MATLAB algorithm, but I haven't spent sufficient time on it to find a usable answer.
> Lacking information about how others compute complex Bessel functions, it > appears as if one could calculate a complex Bessel function using the series [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Functions." Chapter 9 in that book contains numerous formulas for various > ways to express Bessel functions. Hmmm, here's where my lack of mathematical training rears its ugly head. I believe that there's some preliminary ground work that I would need to do before I can successfully reimplemented a Bessel function (of any kind or order...)
I think I'd better get that book and start learning...
> BTW, sqrt(-j) is double-valued. Do you know which one you want? Trevor Cox's implementation is silent on this detail; so no, I don't know which value is required.
Chris W
 Signature The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of the wise are quiet and few. --
dvt - 24 Feb 2005 14:53 GMT > Do you have a breakdown of how a Bessel function can be implemented in a > package like Excel? No, I guess I don't have the answer. There are several pieces of code on the web that will do your job, but I didn't see it listed for Excel or VBA. But I might have a tip... you may be able to modify the following formula to work with complex arguments. I dislike using Excel with complex numbers, so I wouldn't do it this way. I'd reprogram it in VBA. But here goes...
From http://www.dicks-blog.com/archives/2004/12/18/replacing-the-analysis-toolpak-add in-part-1/:
" Here’s a way to calculate BESSELJ function without ATP. This is an array formula:
=SUM(-1^(ROW(INDIRECT("1:50″))-1)/(2^(2*(ROW(INDIRECT("1:50″))-1)+ABS(INT(B1)))*FACT(ROW(INDIRECT("1:50″))-1)*FACT(ABS(INT(B1))+(ROW(INDIRECT("1:50″))-1)))*$A1^(2*(ROW(INDIRECT("1:50″))-1)+ABS(INT(B1))))
Here A1 is the x in BESSELJ and B1 is the n."
 Signature Dave dvt at psu dot edu
Chris Whealy - 25 Feb 2005 09:03 GMT > From > http://www.dicks-blog.com/archives/2004/12/18/replacing-the-analysis-toolpak-add in-part-1/: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Here A1 is the x in BESSELJ and B1 is the n." Thanks for this. However, since posting this request, I have found a free multi-precision add-in for Excel written by a group of Italian programmers calling themselves the Foxes Team. Their website is http://digilander.libero.it/foxes/index.htm
Not only is the coding free, but it is also thoroughly documented!
Chris W
 Signature The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of the wise are quiet and few. --
dvt - 25 Feb 2005 17:42 GMT > Thanks for this. However, since posting this request, I have found a > free multi-precision add-in for Excel written by a group of Italian > programmers calling themselves the Foxes Team. Their website is > http://digilander.libero.it/foxes/index.htm > > Not only is the coding free, but it is also thoroughly documented! Excellent. I saw that web site in my web search, but I didn't see any mention of complex arguments. Does it do complex arguments? If so, how did you find out?
 Signature Dave dvt at psu dot edu
Chris Whealy - 26 Feb 2005 10:15 GMT > Excellent. I saw that web site in my web search, but I didn't see any > mention of complex arguments. Does it do complex arguments? If so, how > did you find out? Dave, it does appear that I was a little over enthusiastic about the immediate suitability of this library for my needs. I've looked through these functions, and although there are many that take complex parameters, the Bessel functions are not among them.
However, all is not lost for two reasons:
1) The Foxes Team implementation is open source, so I can see exactly how they have implemented the existing functions (and their documentation is excellent). 2) Gordon Everstine has kindly sent me his Fortran implementation of a Bessel function that takes complex parameters. So I will convert the Fortran to VBA and (after comparing the results with MATLAB), will integrate it into my spreadsheet.
I just need to confirm with Gordon that I understand the Fortran syntax, then reimplementing it in VBA should not be too tricky.
Chris W
 Signature The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of the wise are quiet and few. --
The Ghost - 20 Feb 2005 23:00 GMT >>Can anyone explain this to me in very simple terms? How does a sound >>reflect off thin air? Cheers, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ken Plotkin I agree that there is always a cost associated with changes, but I do not presently accept the proposition that the change from plane wave to spherical wave propagation is the fundamental cause of the reflected wave.
Imagine two very long tubes which are interfaced to create a single very, very long tube. Both very long tubes have exactly the same inner diameter. Initially, the two very long tubes are separated at the plane of the interface by an infinitely thin, impermeable partition. One of the very long tube is filled with air having a static pressure of 1 Atm. The other very long tube is filled with hydrogen having a static pressure of 1 Atm. Now, imagine a transient wave propagating down one of the very long tubes toward the interface partition. Just as the wavefront reaches the partition, the partition is removed instantaneously, and the wavefront proceeds to cross the interface before any significant mixing of air and hydrogen has occurred. In this situation a refelcted wave will be created despite the fact that neither the cross-sectional area of the tube nor the planar nature of wave propagation have changed.
Comments?
Gordo - 21 Feb 2005 03:08 GMT >>> Can anyone explain this to me in very simple terms? How does a sound >>> reflect off thin air? Cheers, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Comments? As others have said, reflections are caused by impedance mismatches. In this case, rho*c changes at the interface. (In your thought experiment, there is no need to remove the membrane. Just imagine a massless membrane of infinitesimal thickness. Such a membrane would separate the two gases and be transparent to incoming waves.) In tubes, various situations can cause reflections, including change in area, change in tube material or thickness (for elastic tubes), change in wall impedance (e.g., a tube liner), change in fluid (your example). Elastic tubes are particularly interesting, since the apparent speed of propagation is reduced by having a tube which is elastic rather than rigid. This effect is more pronounced for heavy fluids like water.
For a simple structural example of a nonreflecting boundary condition, consider a finite length rod with a longitudinal plane wave propagating toward one end. If that end is terminated with a dashpot of constant rho*c*A (where rho=density of rod material, c=propagation speed=sqrt(E/rho), A=cross-sectional area of rod, and E=Young's modulus of rod material), the wave would not reflect off the boundary, and the rod would appear to be of infinite length (since the wave would be fully absorbed into the boundary). For any other termination, there will be some reflection.
Gordon
Ken Plotkin - 21 Feb 2005 05:42 GMT >I agree that there is always a cost associated with changes, but I do not >presently accept the proposition that the change from plane wave to >spherical wave propagation is the fundamental cause of the reflected wave. Who's to say what's fundamental. In general, you're right - it's an impedance change. But the OP asked for a simple explanation, which I consider to mean "don't start talking impedance." FWIW, I am not a real acoustician, and don't intuitively think in terms of impedances, and so empathize with the OP. For the open tube, I do think in terms of something happening at the end because the constraint of the tube ends at that point.
>Imagine two very long tubes which are interfaced to create a single very, >very long tube. Both very long tubes have exactly the same inner diameter. [snip]
>very long tube is filled with hydrogen having a static pressure of 1 Atm. >Now, imagine a transient wave propagating down one of the very long tubes [snip]
>hydrogen has occurred. In this situation a refelcted wave will be created >despite the fact that neither the cross-sectional area of the tube nor the >planar nature of wave propagation have changed. > >Comments? There is a density and sound speed change at the interface. Again, the behavior of acoustic waves at the interface is more generally described in terms of the impedance change. I don't think I can come up with a simple qualitative description of this one.
The idea of a tube filled with hydrogen at one end and air at the other makes me think of shock tubes, and the classic "natural" shock tube of a methane explosion in a mine. Besides the blast propagating into the air, there is a reflected wave back into the exploded methane/air region. That kind of thing is usually analyzed as a gasdynamic problem, without ever invoking impedance. But one does invoke the fluid equations.
Ken Plotkin
The Ghost - 21 Feb 2005 15:26 GMT >>I agree that there is always a cost associated with changes, but I do >>not presently accept the proposition that the change from plane wave [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >>Comments?
> There is a density and sound speed change at the interface. Again, > the behavior of acoustic waves at the interface is more generally > described in terms of the impedance change. I don't think I can come > up with a simple qualitative description of this one.
> snip....snip I agree, and my point was that the change in impedance is the fundamental cause of the reflected wave. A reflected wave is the means by which nature satisfies the the boundary condition change that is physically imposed at the loaction of the impedance change, but that is not the sort of description that many would consider either simple or qualitative.
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