Hey all,
I have a situation where a condo owner is being annoyed by bass being
produced by a subwoofer in an adjacent unit. For now, my role is just to
document the levels.
I've been trying to determine an acceptable indoor noise criterion.
Most of the bass is in the 40-50Hz 1/3 octave bands, which rules out NC.
I've been plotting my measurement data against the NR25 curve, and in
most cases, the bass noise meets the criteria, even with levels in the
31.5 Hz octave band pushing 70 dB. However, the sound levels do exceed
the RC25 curve.
My question: is there precedent for using RC (instead of NC or NR) to
evaluate bass noise in condos/apartments? I've seen plenty of references
that suggest using NC25, NR25, and RC25 to evaluate indoor noise in
living spaces, but when it comes to design goals or mitigation, most
references I've seen use NC25 or NR25. The problem is that since RC25 is
(intentionally) more restrictive at low frequencies, I don't want to be
accused of using the more restrictive criterion just to get a desired
result.
Herb
Angelo Campanella - 30 Sep 2005 04:30 GMT
> I have a situation where a condo owner is being annoyed by bass being
> produced by a subwoofer in an adjacent unit. For now, my role is just to
> document the levels.
No surprise.
> I've been trying to determine an acceptable indoor noise criterion.
> Most of the bass is in the 40-50Hz 1/3 octave bands, which rules out NC.
Not really. Beranek has made the NCB curves down to 16 Hz.
for NCB-25, we have:
Hz dB
16 81
31 66
63 51
125 43
250 35
500 30
1000 27
etc.
> I've been plotting my measurement data against the NR25 curve, and in
> most cases, the bass noise meets the criteria, even with levels in the
> 31.5 Hz octave band pushing 70 dB. However, the sound levels do exceed
> the RC25 curve.
The RC curves are bogus, IMHO when it comes to evaluating lowest and
highest frequency noise because they badly stray away from the "single
number" philosophy. Typically at low frequencies, a noise that is rumbly
(as you have), will rate as RC-25(R) while the NC-scale will rate it as
NC-40, for instance.
> My question: is there precedent for using RC (instead of NC or NR) to
> evaluate bass noise in condos/apartments? I've seen plenty of references
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> accused of using the more restrictive criterion just to get a desired
> result.
My rationale these days is the following:
1- Acousticians love NC (or NCB)
2- Mechanical engineers love RC.
3- I know that when they stick to designing to the RC "curve" (really, a
5 dB/octave straight line, though this has recently changed in new ANSI
S12.2), so that the ME's will over design and thereby fend off trouble
at very low and very high frequencies.
4- When I arrive on-site and measure the results, I am likely to get
what we want.
Angelo Campanella
> Herb
Herb Singleton - 30 Sep 2005 19:40 GMT
Thanks Angelo & Noral,
I know about Schomer's RNC curves (well okay, I forgot about RNC, but
when Ang mentioned NCB it reminded me about Schomer's paper) - since,
AFAIK, RNC hasn't (yet) gained widespread, I'll stick with NCB for now.
Also, I'll look up a copy of ANSI S12.2 to see what it has to say.
Noral, you said "You could have a spectrum that is perfectly acceptable
based on the rating curves but still very annoying because of the
musical beat characteristic." At least one reference I've seen suggested
adjusting NC/NR curves by -5 dB for "pure tone, intermittent or
impulsive" sounds. Presumably this adjustment could be used for music?
Herb
Peter Larsen - 03 Oct 2005 15:48 GMT
> Thanks Angelo & Noral,
> I know about Schomer's RNC curves (well okay, I forgot about RNC, but
> when Ang mentioned NCB it reminded me about Schomer's paper) - since,
> AFAIK, RNC hasn't (yet) gained widespread, I'll stick with NCB for now.
> Also, I'll look up a copy of ANSI S12.2 to see what it has to say.
> Noral, you said "You could have a spectrum that is perfectly acceptable
> based on the rating curves but still very annoying because of the
> musical beat characteristic." At least one reference I've seen suggested
> adjusting NC/NR curves by -5 dB for "pure tone, intermittent or
> impulsive" sounds. Presumably this adjustment could be used for music?
In the context of audibility below noisefloor pure tones get 10 dB as I
understand this. This matters when the complaint threshold is passed,
because ""audible == they didn't listen to what I said about the noise,
now I am angry"", passing the complaint threshold and seeing complaints
disregarded most definitely lowers the tolerance. The best real life
solution is a curfew after which further galactic battles shall be
postponed to after 9 am. Diplomacy, including having the noisy part hear
how loud it is at the offended part, can be a highly efficient tool.
The subjective disturbance criteria may also be whether the vibrations
are felt. Allow me to humbly suggest to supplement measuring airborne
noise with accelerometer measurements of floor, wall and ceiling
vibration.
> Herb
Kind regards
Peter Larsen

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Noral Stewart - 30 Sep 2005 11:59 GMT
Herb,
First recognize that a major part of the complaint is not because of the
level of the sound but because of the beat. That is, if the sound measured
the same but did not contain the musical beat, it would be much less
objectionable. You could have a spectrum that is perfectly acceptable based
on the rating curves but still very annoying because of the musical beat
characteristic.
The NC and NCB curves basically assume steady sound levels that are not
pulsating. One of the reasons that the RC curves are more restrictive at
low frequencies is because the developer had experienced a lot of problems
with HVAC systems that produced pulsating sounds at low frequencies. He was
trying to compensate for this, but then the RC curves are too restrictive at
low frequencies if the sound is not pulsating. More recently, Schomer has
proposed the RNC rating system that uses curves more like NCB, but with a
tangency method, and a penalty adjustment if the low frequency sound is
pulsating. You might look into that.
However, the problem is that if the musical beat is heard, it is very
attention getting and irritating. The goal is not just to get the music
down to some criteria curve, but to determine a reasonable level of
background sound by such a criteria curve, and then get the music down to
the point that it would be masked by such background level. Thus, the music
needs to be significantly lower than the acceptable level of background
sound.
> Hey all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Herb
abr@norconsult.no - 05 Oct 2005 14:19 GMT
> Hey all,
>
> I have a situation where a condo owner is being annoyed by bass being
> produced by a subwoofer in an adjacent unit.
This problem isn't directly assessed in the norwegian regulation.
However, the reference standard says that music from bars, restaurant,
etc, in apartments should be evaluate as noise from mechanical
installations.
The noise limits are Leq<25 dBA, Lmax<27dBA and Lmax<47dBC. That's for
classs C apartement, the minimum limits. For apartements with improved
acoustics, class A, thoses limits are reduced by 5dB (20, 22) and it
says that it should not be any disturbing frequence when the 1/1-octave
noise levels are plot against NC- og RC-curve. For NC curves, that
means that the result curve must be 5dB lower than the noise limit in
dBA. hence, NC15 for class A. For Rc-curves, the noise level must not
exceed the curve by more than 5dB in frequences below 500Hz.
Hope this will give you some relevant guidelines.
Alain Bradette