Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Biology
BiologyBotanyMicrobiologyEntomologyEvolutionPaleontology
Chemistry
General ChemistryAnalytical ChemistryElectrochemistryOrganic Synthesis
Earth Science
GeologyMineralogyOceanographyMeteorologyEarthquakes
Physics
General PhysicsResearchRelativityParticle PhysicsElectromagnetismFusionOpticsAcousticsNew Theories

Natural Science Forum / Physics / Acoustics / December 2005



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Whisker stimulation with a loudspeaker?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Didier A. Depireux - 20 Dec 2005 16:01 GMT
In some experiment, we want to stimulate some whiskers of an immobilized rat
with a high frequency (600Hz max) stimulus. I looked at piezos, but they are
really expensive for a simple pilot experiment.

Then I thought: since I am already equipped to do sound stimulation,
couldn't I use a speaker, attach some light needle perpendicular to the
cone center, and put the whisker in the needle hole at the other end? I
guess I would need to find a cheap speaker with a heavy mass? It seems too
simple an idea.

2 questions: 0) how could I measure what the actual movement of the needle
is? I was thinking that a microphone would actually work. 1) what would be
the best speaker to use? I am looking at my ScanSpeak tweeters I have not
use for a while, and they seem plenty heavy.

Thanks!

                        Didier

Signature

Didier A Depireux         ddepi001@umaryland.edu  didier@isr.umd.edu
20 Penn Str - S218E   http://neurobiology.umaryland.edu/depireux.htm
Anatomy and Neurobiology                   Phone: 410-706-1272 (lab)
University of Maryland                                   -1273 (off)
Baltimore MD 21201 USA                           Fax: 1-410-706-2512

GregS - 20 Dec 2005 16:49 GMT
>In some experiment, we want to stimulate some whiskers of an immobilized rat
>with a high frequency (600Hz max) stimulus. I looked at piezos, but they are
>really expensive for a simple pilot experiment.

I am familiar having built a system to do this, but with piezos.
The frequencies were much lower, just a touching effect.
You have to deal with resonances at higher frequencies, and
a feedback system might be needed if your changing frequencies.

>Then I thought: since I am already equipped to do sound stimulation,
>couldn't I use a speaker, attach some light needle perpendicular to the
>cone center, and put the whisker in the needle hole at the other end? I
>guess I would need to find a cheap speaker with a heavy mass? It seems too
>simple an idea.

You could use any mechanical device including a speaker driver.
I think there are other mechanical devices also.

>2 questions: 0) how could I measure what the actual movement of the needle
>is? I was thinking that a microphone would actually work. 1) what would be
>the best speaker to use? I am looking at my ScanSpeak tweeters I have not
>use for a while, and they seem plenty heavy.

An infra-red detector will indicate movement.
I have used a sensor with sensor and emitter on the same side.
With the mass attached, the resonant frequency will have to be lower than the stimulating
frequency. A tweeter has very little movement in its design. I would use one with
a fs of about 500 Hz. minimum.
greg

>Thanks!
>
>                                                Didier
The Ghost - 20 Dec 2005 19:55 GMT
> In some experiment, we want to stimulate some whiskers of an
> immobilized rat with a high frequency (600Hz max) stimulus. I looked
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Thanks!
> Didier

1) What is the low frequency limit?
2) What motion of the transducer do you want to follow the applied
voltage....displacement, velocity, acceleration?
3) What is displacement/velocity/acceleration profile vs frequency would
you like to achieve?
4) What are your geometrical constraints in terms of transducer diameter
and proximity of the face of the transducer to the experimental animal
and/or other experimental apparatus?
5) Do you have electrostatic shielding requirements such as those that are
required when making neural or intracellular recordings using high
impedance microelectrodes?




Didier A. Depireux - 21 Dec 2005 21:00 GMT
> 1) What is the low frequency limit?

We want to stimulate at 200-600Hz, using sinusoids that are amplitude
modulated at 4-12Hz.

> 2) What motion of the transducer do you want to follow the applied
> voltage....displacement, velocity, acceleration?

Displacement is all I need (and from it I can get the rest).

> 3) What is displacement/velocity/acceleration profile vs frequency would
> you like to achieve?

Not sure I get this one. I would want the displacement to be the same, no
matter the frequency of the stimulus (from 200 to 600Hz).

> 4) What are your geometrical constraints in terms of transducer diameter
> and proximity of the face of the transducer to the experimental animal
> and/or other experimental apparatus?
> 5) Do you have electrostatic shielding requirements such as those that are
> required when making neural or intracellular recordings using high
> impedance microelectrodes?

In my experience, a simple shield made of copper is sufficient to prevent
"feed-through" from the loudspeaker to the electrode. These are simple
5 MegOhm tungsten electrodes in a sealed system .

                        Didier

Signature

Didier A Depireux         ddepi001@umaryland.edu  didier@isr.umd.edu
20 Penn Str - S218E   http://neurobiology.umaryland.edu/depireux.htm
Anatomy and Neurobiology                   Phone: 410-706-1272 (lab)
University of Maryland                                   -1273 (off)
Baltimore MD 21201 USA                           Fax: 1-410-706-2512

GregS - 21 Dec 2005 21:21 GMT
>> 1) What is the low frequency limit?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Not sure I get this one. I would want the displacement to be the same, no
>matter the frequency of the stimulus (from 200 to 600Hz).

The displacement will change. There are two things you can do. Make
a feedback system, or just know how much to excite at a certain frequency
to make a given displacement.

Wow, we are all the way down to 4 Hz.

Whats expensive about piezo's. The amount of displacement you need
might call for HV amps, but still not out of the question.
You can still get into some severe resonances with any mechanical method.
Keeping the resonance out of your user band is practically mandatory.

greg

>> 4) What are your geometrical constraints in terms of transducer diameter
>> and proximity of the face of the transducer to the experimental animal
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>                                                Didier
The Ghost - 21 Dec 2005 21:38 GMT
>> 1) What is the low frequency limit?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Displacement is all I need (and from it I can get the rest).

What is the maximum peak-peak displacement that you require?

>> 3) What is displacement/velocity/acceleration profile vs frequency
>> would you like to achieve?
>
> Not sure I get this one. I would want the displacement to be the same,
> no matter the frequency of the stimulus (from 200 to 600Hz).

You do get it,  because it is the answer to question(2).


>> 4) What are your geometrical constraints in terms of transducer
>> diameter and proximity of the face of the transducer to the
>> experimental animal and/or other experimental apparatus?

I really need an answer to this question because geometrical contstraints
may rule out some of the simpler possibilities.  Perhaps I should have
asked the question somewhat differently.  For example, assume that you have
a transducer that is x inches in diameter and that its motion is
transferred to the excitation point by some connecting mecanism having a
length y.  Can you give me a few representative x,y combinations that your
setup can accommodate.  

>> 5) Do you have electrostatic shielding requirements such as those
>> that are required when making neural or intracellular recordings
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>                               Didier
Angelo Campanella - 22 Dec 2005 14:54 GMT
> Then I thought: since I am already equipped to do sound stimulation,
> couldn't I use a speaker, attach some light needle perpendicular to the
> cone center, and put the whisker in the needle hole at the other end? I
> guess I would need to find a cheap speaker with a heavy mass? It seems too
> simple an idea.

    The speaker will work. Keep in mind that for very low frequencies, a
steady ac current will produce a static deflection (electrodynamic force
working against the retaining spring effective within the speaker
("spider" spring or its equivalent). This relation is no longer valid at
and above the resonant frequency of the speaker.

> 2 questions: 0) how could I measure what the actual movement of the needle
> is? I was thinking that a microphone would actually work. 1) what would be
> the best speaker to use? I am looking at my ScanSpeak tweeters I have not
> use for a while, and they seem plenty heavy.

    Since you want to work from 200 Hz upward, a very small speaker with a
very high resonance frequency is desirable. The tiny speakers mounted in
PC's and Laptops are an example. I have tested PC speakers and found
them to have a resonance around 300-500 Hz. Laptop speakers, being still
smaller, will have a higher resonance frequency.

    The more formal device for such work is the electrodynamic "Shaker"; or
the "Mini-Shaker" that B&K has made (their item # 4810). It has a moving
coil to be driven by a sine wave current via any amplifier. If you get
the instruction booklet with it, it will describe the current needed to
get the velocity or displacement you wish.

    This shaker method may be the more tedious (finding a 4810) way.

    The speaker method you first described can be "calibrated" by using a
micrometer depth gauge (I am inventing here) mounted and set at the
needle (that would connect to the whisker later). The micrometer would
be "zeroed" with no current through he speaker, then backed away, then
ac current at some low frequency should be applied to the voice coil,
then the micrometer turned back in until faint contact is noted, either
by the ticking sound you might hear, or by an electrical continuity
check you might make.

    Angelo Campanella
GregS - 22 Dec 2005 15:03 GMT
>> Then I thought: since I am already equipped to do sound stimulation,
>> couldn't I use a speaker, attach some light needle perpendicular to the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>them to have a resonance around 300-500 Hz. Laptop speakers, being still
>smaller, will have a higher resonance frequency.

Working below the resonant frequency will severly limit amount of excursion.
After any material is added to the speaker, the frequency will lower.

greg

>        The more formal device for such work is the electrodynamic "Shaker"; or
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>        Angelo Campanella
The Ghost - 22 Dec 2005 16:49 GMT
> Working below the resonant frequency will severly limit amount of
> excursion.

Quite the contrary.  An electrodynamic speaker produces maximum
displacement at frequencies that are below its lumped-element resonant
frequency, Fo.  Above Fo, voice coil displacement decreases in proportion
to 1/(f^2).  Additionally, for f lower and reasonably removed from Fo, cone
displacement follows applied voltage, which means that displacement is
independent of frequency for constant applied voltage.  
GregS - 22 Dec 2005 17:49 GMT
>> Working below the resonant frequency will severly limit amount of
>> excursion.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>displacement follows applied voltage, which means that displacement is
>independent of frequency for constant applied voltage.  

Perhaps I'm thinking of voice coils and the linearity range. All
drivers I have fed signals into produce maximun displacement at resonance, however I'm using a high
impedance source, so that  I can measure the resonance.Using small tweeters or other small drivers,
the suspension is very limited to begin with, so using any of these as opposed
to a lower midrange driver, leaves a lot to be desired in travel. Regardless, having resoance in the
opperating range is detrimental.

I'll be going. Back Jan 3, 2006.

greg
The Ghost - 22 Dec 2005 17:58 GMT
> In article <hOAqf.27624$%X.11407@fe07.news.easynews.com>, The Ghost
> <theghost@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> travel. Regardless, having resoance in the opperating range is
> detrimental.

You are correct.  For an underdamped system, maximum displacement occurs at
resonance; but as you also indicate, a resonant transducer is not suitable
for this application.  
The Ghost - 23 Dec 2005 00:17 GMT
>> Then I thought: since I am already equipped to do sound stimulation,
>> couldn't I use a speaker, attach some light needle perpendicular to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>      The speaker will work. Keep in mind that for very low
>      frequencies, a

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to that conclusion.  The requiremets impose
numerous inherently conflicting speaker requirements.  In order for
displacement (open-loop) to be frequency independent, the speaker with
attached probe has to operate below the lumped-element system resonance.  
Thus a high lumped-element resonant frequency is required which in turns
requires low mass and high stiffness.  But low mass is in conflict with the
added mass of a probe, and high stiffness translates to small displacement
below resonance.  Whether or not the speaker solution will work will depend
on the attached mass, the stiffness of the suspension, and on the required
displacement.  Without knowing the required displacement, as well as the
geometrical constraints, which will determine how much attached mass is
needed to interface the transducer with the preparation, it is not possible
to recomend an appropriate speaker.  

snip......snip

>      The more formal device for such work is the electrodynamic
>      "Shaker"; or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>      This shaker method may be the more tedious (finding a 4810) way.

For many, many reasons.  

>      The speaker method you first described can be "calibrated" by
>      using a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> continuity check you might make.
>      Angelo Campanella

Analog Devices makes a very small MEMS accelerometer having a mass which is
less than 1gm and a usable bandwidth in excess of 1KHz.  Such an
accelerometer could be bonded directly to the tip of an appropriately-
designed stimulator and would measure the motion at the point of excitation
directly.  Because the frequency range of interest is only two octaves, one
could convert the acceleration output to a displacement output by means of
a simple, passive second-order low-pass filter.

 
GregS - 22 Dec 2005 14:57 GMT
>In some experiment, we want to stimulate some whiskers of an immobilized rat
>with a high frequency (600Hz max) stimulus. I looked at piezos, but they are
>really expensive for a simple pilot experiment.

The reason I ask, I didn't think raw actuators were all that expensive.
The actuators we have used here for Daniel Simons projects starting about 25 years ago,
were constructed by their lab personal out of slabs of about .5 X 3 Cm.
Rods were attached to the ends for contact with the whisker. I designed the
amplifiers which drove up to 300 volts. DC amplifiers
can be had with less drive voltage at reasonable costs.
It seems unreasonable with all your other specs., that using
a quickly set up voice coil system is  going to do the job. Perhaps you can scale down the initial
investigation. Do what your thinking, and just try it out and look at the stylus
under the microscope and other position observing methods.

greg


>Then I thought: since I am already equipped to do sound stimulation,
>couldn't I use a speaker, attach some light needle perpendicular to the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>                                                Didier
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.