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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Acoustics / September 2006



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Stiking Power Vs Loudness

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bg_ie@yahoo.com - 04 Sep 2006 09:39 GMT
Hi,

What is the relationship between how hard you strike an instrument and
how loud the resulting sound is.

Basically, I wish to display an object onscreen for each drum beat and
I'm wondering what relationship I should use between the brightness of
the object and its amplitude.

For example, if I stike a note, and the resulting sound has an
amplitude of 80dBs, what will the resulting amplitude be if I hit it
twice as hard? 90dB?

Thanks,

Barry.
The Ghost - 04 Sep 2006 14:41 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Barry.

How do you determine/know when/that your hit is twice as hard?
bg_ie@yahoo.com - 04 Sep 2006 15:11 GMT
> > Hi,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> How do you determine/know when/that your hit is twice as hard?

Sorry if i wasn't clear about that. At the moment I'm doing the
following -

SetColorRGB(amplitude/32767,0,0);

So, I color my object in a linear fashion with respect to amplitude.
So, the object is black for zero amplitude, and red for an amplitude of
93dB. This doesn't look good though, so I'm thinking the brightness
should change with loudness not amplitude. The reason it doesn't look
good is because the object is quite dark even at 83dBs. I'm trying to
mimic a performer on stage so I'm just wondering what the relationship
is between how hard an instrument is hit and the resulting sound.
Jens Rodrigo - 04 Sep 2006 16:01 GMT
>> > What is the relationship between how hard you strike an instrument
>> > and
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> mimic a performer on stage so I'm just wondering what the relationship
> is between how hard an instrument is hit and the resulting sound.

Here is an interesting test tone generator:
http://www.measure.demon.co.uk/Acoustics_Software/db_demo.html

Go to the REF = reference sound and find out which of the following
levels you "feel" to be half as loud. That is not easy, perhaps
impossible.
And when you made a guess, you know only for that single tone
how much it is. That says nothing about the level (loudness) of
your drum beat, which is half or double as loud.

Cheers Jens
Chris Whealy - 04 Sep 2006 17:49 GMT
>> How do you determine/know when/that your hit is twice as hard?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> mimic a performer on stage so I'm just wondering what the relationship
> is between how hard an instrument is hit and the resulting sound.

Several things:

1) You didn't answer the question.  How are you determining the force
with which drum is being struck?  Are you taking actual measurements
from a real drum, or is this a virtual drum?

2) You're using linear scaling to represent a phenomenon to which human
perception is logarithmic.  It would be better to take the log (to the
base 2) of the quantity being scaled.  This value will then appear on a
linear scale from 0 to 15 (15 = log2(32768))

3) Loudness is the human perception of amplitude, so once you have
scaled amplitude logarithmically, it will approach the human perception
of loudness.

4) Don't follow your statement "I'm trying to mimic a performer on
stage".  In what respect?  The force with which a drummer can hit a drum
 will vary in a linear manner, but the perception of the loudness of
the beat will vary logarithmically.  See point 3).

5) All drums have a frequency content.  So assuming you're sampling real
drum beats, why not FFT the sample and assign a different *colour* to
each component in the frequency domain.  Then scale the *brightness* of
each colour logarithmically according to its amplitude.  Low frequencies
would appear near the red end and higher frequencies towards the blue
end. The actual beat will then appear as a colour that is the sum of the
colours represented by the frequency components.

6) Read the recent thread on this NG called "loudness and dBs".  Lots of
useful discussion on the topic of loudness and human perception.

7) Please post your results.  I'd like to see whether such a
visualisation helps communicate information that would otherwise be
difficult to perceive.

Chris W

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The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
                                         ---

The Ghost - 04 Sep 2006 17:58 GMT
>> > Hi,
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> mimic a performer on stage so I'm just wondering what the relationship
> is between how hard an instrument is hit and the resulting sound.

The problem you are having is due to the fact that sensation magnitude
(brightness, loudness, etc) is not linearly related to stimulus amplitude.  
The relationship is that of power function of the form S=kI^a, where S is
the sensation magnitude, k is an arbitrary scaling constant, I is stimulus
intensity and a is an exponent that depends on the sensory modlaity
(hearing, vision, touch, etc).  For the basics see:

http://ahsmail.uwaterloo.ca/~wchedder/stevenspowerlaw.htm

In your case, you would calculate "S" and replace "amplitude" in your
equation by "S."  In the equation for "S," "I" would be the input
amplitude.   You will have to do some experimenting with "k" and "a" to get
the best subjective result.  The exponent "a" needs to be positive and less
than 1.  A good starting point would be k=1, and a=0.3.
Angelo Campanella - 05 Sep 2006 05:01 GMT
> For example, if I stike a note, and the resulting sound has an
> amplitude of 80dB, what will the resulting amplitude be if I hit it
> twice as hard? 90dB?

Depends on your exact meaning of "twice as hard".

If you mean with twice the hammer velocity, then we have a plan:

Kinetic energy is (1/2)*(M*V^2), so the doubled velocity gives four
times the kinetic energy delivered to the sound producer.

That amounts to a 6 dB increase.

Ergo, twice velocity gives twice the amplitude or four times the energy.

Again, that's 6 dB more, not ten.

If you used three times the velocity, then it's 9 times the energy, or
about 9 dB more... almost the ten you were looking for.

So we make it 3.1623 times the velocity, which gives ten times, and also
10 dB more.

That's what it takes to make a sound  "twice as loud"... 3.1623 times as
hard...

Psychoacoustics.....

Angelo Campanella
 
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