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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Biology / June 2006EtOH-Ethylene pipe/engine conversion/corrosion
Can EtOH be CHEAPLY converted back and forth to Ethylene? What does 170'F and H2SO4 cost? Why do they make ethanol from petro-ethylene instead of using the ethylene? All the corn in the USA would only supply 10% of the EtOH to power our cars. If we are engineering bugs to make cellulosic ethanol, why not have them produce something which won't rust pipelines and engines. In WW2 some made gasolene and methane from coal. Just because bootleggers once used ethanol to power cars doesn't mean it's the best choice now. I'm thinking there have to be conversion innovations (like using platinum to convert kerosene to gasoline) that will only come with extensive use, and hence accidents and experimentation. You should be able to take in anything (corn silage, apple waste, garbage) and produce energy (EtOh, H2, CH4) or convert them all to a common transit fluid line ethylene. What's the economics at $10 $20, $40, $90 oil? (Assume $90 oil for six months in the near future, the life of $60 oil to be five years and a return to $20 oil in fifteen years.) The panicmeisters are going to destroy this process if they force you to bet on permanently high oil prices: You have to assume the "windfall" that can be plowed back into R&D will only last like seven years; maybe we need 20yr energy futures and other risk derivatives? http://www.fe.doe.gov/programs/powersystems/gasification http://www.woodgas.com/gasification.htm http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/gasification.html > Can EtOH be CHEAPLY converted back and forth to Ethylene? What > does 170'F and H2SO4 cost? Why do they make ethanol from [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > http://www.woodgas.com/gasification.htm > http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/gasification.html So you want to take a high heating value fuel (kerosene), and make it into a lower heating value fuel? Wouldn't it be better to retune engines to run on kerosene? As far as the rest of all this, are you putting up the money to make this happen, or are you just blanketing a bunch of newsgroups with wishful thinking? Michael > So you want to take a high heating value fuel (kerosene), and make it into a > lower heating value fuel? Wouldn't it be better to retune engines to run on > kerosene? They're called diesels. Graham > As far as the rest of all this, are you putting up the money to make this > happen, or are you just blanketing a bunch of newsgroups with wishful > thinking? It's significant that this question was asked (and answered, somewhat negatively) a couple of weeks ago. My guess is, this is either a wishful thinker, or someone trying to hook investors.  SignatureAidan Karley, FGS Aberdeen, Scotland Written at Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:35 +0100, but posted later. No, I'm looking for ideas. (And my orgo is rusty, and never was good.) I haven't touched petro in ages and recently a lot of friends started asking me (BSChE'81 never used) and I started wondering. I've learned in life that the one who isn't afraid of asking dumb questions wins the most. EtOH rusts stuff. Why not convert it to something that doesn't? If we are making bugs to make fuel from wood, why not make something better? During WW2, they made gasolene and methane from coal. They didn't redesign the engines and furnaces. If we are redesigning things, wouldn't it make more sence to chose the product rather than to let the fact that bootleggers used it (and the farm lobby demands it) chose for us. I don't get how you inferred kerosene? (Unless it's the one about making ethanol from petro-ethylene.. I found that on an ethanol boosterism site. That baffles me, too.) I was looking for something you can convert EtOH to that most resembles gasolene. So I was wondering, why not ethylene (an olefin). It's only because it's the first thing I found in my old orgo book, not because it's a good answer. > EtOH rusts stuff. Where did you get that idea ? Graham >> EtOH rusts stuff. > > Where did you get that idea ? From the same source of misinformation that told him that gasolene <sic> and methane were made from coal with no engine modifications. > No, I'm looking for ideas. (And my orgo is rusty, and never was good.) I > haven't touched petro in ages and recently a lot of friends started asking me [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > it's the first thing I found in my old orgo book, not because it's a good > answer. It is relatively easy to convert ethanol to ethylene with a high degree of selectivity (strong acid catalyst, ca. 200C, lowish pressure). However, ethylene is very difficult to ship & to store in bulk due to it's physical properties (it's a supercritical fluid at room temp & high pressure. Expensive cryogenics are required to produce a liquid phase). It is far easier, cheaper, & safer to ship & to store ethanol. I suppose it would be possible, in principle, to oligomerise the ethylene you've made by such a dehydration process to form C8 olefins & aromatics, however the combination of three distinct processes (ethanol formation by fermentation, ethanol dehydration, & ethylene oligomerisation) would make this a very expensive option for producing a liquid fuel. Finally, the most economic industrial route for making ethanol is still from "petro-ethylene", as you call it. The normal process is the high temperature & pressure gas phase hydration of ethylene using a solid acid catalyst (usually phosphoric acid, absorbed onto silica or clay granules). The economics of this process are superior to that of "fermentation" ethanol, even allowing for the current high oil price, & also the political subsidies that fermentation ethanol producers currently enjoy. Regards, Braveheart Ok, my first stab stunk. I'm not surprised. But what about alternatives? Your post kinda explains to me why duPont is going the bio-butanol route. And, yes, I'm not surprised the economics of all this ethanol stuff still stinks. If there were no subsidy, even with these oil prices, it wouldn't fly. And I'll be the first to blame varmint mental geopagans for our lack of new wells and refineries. And I'm not inclined to believe in peak oil, either. They say Exxon's Tillerson is like the only oil exec who expects oil prices to come down again. (But I agree with him.) - = - Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Reagan Mozart Pindus BioStrategist http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}--- [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards] [Yellary Clinton & Yellalot Spitzer: Nasty Together] Dumb question: why are all the bio fuels alcohols and the components of petro-gasolene alkenes & aromatics? I mean if alcohol was so cool, then why wasn't it in original gasolene? Or is it that low-carbon alcohols are liquid? And what baffles me is if glucose is C6.H12.O6.. the bugs use up (fess up, waste) energy to make EtOH.. isn't there like a cheaper reaction to turn glucose (and the levo-chiral cellulosic sugars) into a better fuel directly? (Ok, you could just burn them and ship the electricity!) On the other hand, just hearing about duPont bio-butanol shows me I'm not the first one to ask these questions.. and it kinda points to the answer.. Reading material references welcome. (I still have Morrison&Boyd Orgo & McCabe&Smith Unit Ops. But I use the REA ChE Hbk mostly - which is really cool to have everything in one book.) - = - Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Reagan Mozart Pindus BioStrategist http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}--- [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards] [Yellary Clinton & Yellalot Spitzer: Nasty Together] >Dumb question: why are all the bio fuels alcohols and >the components of petro-gasolene alkenes & aromatics? because petro fuels don't have alcohols in them, right from the ground. >I mean if alcohol was so cool, then why wasn't it in original gasolene? original IC engines ran on alcohol >Or is it that low-carbon alcohols are liquid? > >And what baffles me is if glucose is C6.H12.O6.. >the bugs use up (fess up, waste) energy to make EtOH.. its anerobically digested by the bugs. if O2 is available, aerobic bugs would use it all the way to CO2 and H2O. >isn't there like a cheaper reaction to turn glucose (and the >levo-chiral cellulosic sugars) into a better fuel directly? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >On the other hand, just hearing about duPont bio-butanol shows me I'm >not the first one to ask these questions.. and it kinda points to the answer.. yeah. i spotted teh butanol thing in the paper this morning. one of those "why didn't I think of that" moments. >Reading material references welcome. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards] > [Yellary Clinton & Yellalot Spitzer: Nasty Together] I heard on the radio about duPont-BP bio-butanol. Apparently it is less corrosive than ethanol. - = - Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Reagan Mozart Pindus BioStrategist http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}--- [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards] [Yellary Clinton & Yellalot Spitzer: Nasty Together] |
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