This set of recommendations was first prepared after noticing some nasty
behaviors on the USENET. Initially, I embraced the usual recommendation
to ignore trolls, crackpots, liars, flamers, and other nasty posters.
This worked for most of cases. For example, after postings from certain
nasty posters were ignored several times, the posters stopped from
replying more.
However, this recommendation did not work for the most nasty individuals
[*] and this has obligated me to rethink the guidelines, incorporating
new tactics for beating that people.
I had been ignoring most accusations, nonsenses, and lies from certain
poster in non-moderated newsgroups but then he followed me to two
moderated newsgroup and started again.
Also there was some recent discussion in moderated newsgroup
sci.physics.foundations about moderation policies, just after a group of
people openly protested to the moderator board about the annoying
messages that passed moderation. This chapter finished after one of the
moderators warned in public to the nasty poster.
Since his interest in that moderated newsgroup has diminished and
actually he is not posting more, returning to moderated newsgroups where
he posts dozens of nasty messages (insults, lies, ad hominem...) each day.
After this episode was analyzed I have also included recommendations for
moderated newsgroups. I have done several experiments in different
newsgroups, forcing limiting behaviors, recollecting the data, and
preparing the guidelines.
In several occasions I have publicly said I was recollecting information
for the guidelines and warned nasty posters about their behavior. For
example the day 12 I wrote
> I repeat again, are you aware that this thread and your messages will be
> cited in a new version of USENET guidelines?
And the reply was
"Why should I care? Nobody but you cares about your guidelines."
I have also received some feedback from users of moderated newsgroups, I
wait more feedback from moderators for this part.
Another defect of the original recommendation to ignore crackpots was
they feel freedom to post anything nonsensical they want. This was
irrelevant for veteran readers, of course, most of whom already kill-
filled the crackpots but was a source of continuous confusion for novice
readers.
For example, recently I wrote the standard Hamiltonian of special
relativity and one crackpot replied
"No. The special relativistic Hamiltonian is H = L = -mc^2 * [1 - v^2/
c^2 ]."
and from here followed a nasty discussion with more crackpots adding more
mistakes, noise, and insults. For example, another crackpot picked over
the above wrong Lagrangian and wrote
http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.physics.relativity/2008-07/
msg00824.html
Everyone who studied a minimum of special relativity and mechanics
detected the mistakes they were doing, but there was case of one novice
(no physicists are usual on newsgroups) who did not and supported in
public to the crackpot who wrote "H = L = -mc^2 * [1 - v^2/ c^2 ]".
I think it is our responsibility do not ignore those notorious mistakes
and warn novice readers always was possible. That is my current view with
further recommendations to notice the mistakes without being caught in
the noise generated by crackpots as those.
The guidelines are accessible on
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/miscellaneouszone/guidelines.html
and comments are welcomed. I thanks Murray Arnow and Peter M. Brown for
their reading of the guidelines and useful suggestions.
NOTE
[*] There is a documented case of a clearly perturbed individual who has
tried for close a year to falsify the Groups ratings about posters adding
hundred of negative stars and simulating the ratings of a hundred of
different readers. He achieved this by exploiting a well-known bug in the
Groups console.
This poster was once caught by a Groups administrator, and his fake rates
eliminated from the total rate. But that did not stop him. He changed the
nick, started a new account and continues trying to falsify the archive.
This and other samples from crackpots like Eric Gisse, disorder trolls as
Dono (Karandash2), professional liars as Tom Roberts and others will be
presented, with details, dates, original messages, and links on a future
Micro-thought, "Some samples of USENET fauna", now in preparation
canonicalscience.blogspot.com

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BradGuth - 22 Jul 2008 15:10 GMT
On Jul 22, 2:22 am, "Juan R." González-Álvarez
<juanREM...@canonicalscience.com> wrote:
> This set of recommendations was first prepared after noticing some nasty
> behaviors on the USENET. Initially, I embraced the usual recommendation
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
> --
> Center for CANONICAL |SCIENCE) http://canonicalscience.org
How or why the hell does “Juan R. González-Álvarez” manage to
crosspost a given topic into sci.physics whereas replies to this
simply never materialize as contributed to any of this topic as having
been crossposted into this otherwise public newsgroup?
It functions as though the topic is broken, even though all other
sci.physics topics are working properly. It must be because of using
the “Followup-To: sci.physics.relativity” option that doesn’t make a
whole lot of sense if “Juan R. González-Álvarez” is trying to draw
public attention to his/her rant.
Recommendations for effective online scientific discussion
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/be956bf14b9bff00?hl=en#
Is there a good reason in this case for using the "Followup To:"
option?
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
BradGuth - 23 Jul 2008 15:10 GMT
> On Jul 22, 2:22 am, "Juan R." González-Álvarez
>
[quoted text clipped - 119 lines]
>
> - Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Why is Juan R. González-Álvarez unaware of using "Followup-To:
alt.crackpot"?
And of others clearly opposed to changing a damn thing for the better
using "Followup-To: alt.creep, alt.morons"
- Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth
Bryan Olson - 22 Jul 2008 17:38 GMT
> This set of recommendations was first prepared after noticing some nasty
> behaviors on the USENET.
You might want to start, Juan, by correcting your own bad Usenet
behavior. Do not abuse the "followup-to" header. Why did you think
your post needed to appear on five groups, but replies should go
only to sci.physics.relativity?
[...]
> In several occasions I have publicly said I was recollecting information
> for the guidelines and warned nasty posters about their behavior. For
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> "Why should I care? Nobody but you cares about your guidelines."
That strikes me as a reasonable response.
[...]
> This and other samples from crackpots like Eric Gisse, disorder trolls as
> Dono (Karandash2), professional liars as Tom Roberts and others will be
> presented, with details, dates, original messages, and links on a future
Who do you think you are kidding, Juan? What distinguishes these
people isn't outstandingly nasty Usenet behavior; it's that they
argued with *you*. Now you have the nerve to pretend your issue
is "effective online scientific discussion". No one is fooled.
Juan, your real cause could not be more obvious.

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Juan R. - 23 Jul 2008 12:35 GMT
Bryan Olson wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:38:26 -0700:
>> This set of recommendations was first prepared after noticing some
>> nasty behaviors on the USENET.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> post needed to appear on five groups, but replies should go only to
> sci.physics.relativity?
It is technical issue of my newsreader I don't know how solve. If I leave
the followup in blank or add all groups then gives error 441 and don't
post.
> [...]
>> In several occasions I have publicly said I was recollecting
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> That strikes me as a reasonable response.
Exact, why would he stop from submitting more nonsense and insults after
being warned to not continue that way? Why would he stop from doing that
in moderated newsgroups where was warned by moderators to remain polite?
He preferred to abandon the moderated newsgroups to continue to lie and
insult in non-moderated ones.
> [...]
>> This and other samples from crackpots like Eric Gisse, disorder trolls
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> isn't outstandingly nasty Usenet behavior; it's that they argued with
> *you*.
I differentiate between arguments, and the mere insults, ad hominem, and
lies.
Moreover, you seem to be unaware these people has argued practically with
anyone who has participated in the groups. Indeed they are top posters of
all times.
> Now you have the nerve to pretend your issue is "effective online
> scientific discussion". No one is fooled. Juan, your real cause could
> not be more obvious.
Use the guidelines if you like them and not if you don't. It is that
simple.

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Juan R. - 23 Jul 2008 12:40 GMT
"Juan R." González-Álvarez wrote on Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:35:56 +0200:
> Moreover, you seem to be unaware these people has argued practically
> with anyone who has participated in the groups. Indeed they are top
> posters of all times.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/about
1º) Dirk
5º) Tom
6º) Eric
Dono changed nick from Karandash2 when was banned and that may explain
why is not one of top poster of all times. Still Dono is one of top
posters this month.

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dlzc - 22 Jul 2008 17:40 GMT
Dear "Juan R." González-Álvarez:
Restored the full cross-post list.
On Jul 22, 2:22 am, "Juan R." González-Álvarez
<juanREM...@canonicalscience.com> wrote:
> This set of recommendations was first prepared after
> noticing some nasty behaviors on the USENET.
...
> I think it is our responsibility do not ignore those
> notorious mistakes and warn novice readers always
> was possible. That is my current view with further
> recommendations to notice the mistakes without
> being caught in the noise generated by crackpots
> as those.
Sure had to cut out a lot of whining, trolling, and personal opinion
before I got to your recommendation.
Why do you trim the "Followup-To" list on a posting such as this? If
you are going to spam five groups, you should support on-topic debate
in all five groups.
David A. Smith
Juan R. - 23 Jul 2008 13:00 GMT
dlzc wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:40:43 -0700:
(...)
Your nasty posts in another thread were ignored but not more David. See
below.
> Why do you trim the "Followup-To" list on a posting such as this? If
> you are going to spam five groups, you should support on-topic debate in
> all five groups.
As explained before it is a 441 error in my newsreader.
I see you are not perturbed by Eric posting nonsense, Dono trying to
falsify Groups archive and ratings or Tom promoting usual lies but you
are by technical issue about cross-posting.
All of that is fine for you. No? Indeed you replied then to me, but you
did not them.
In any case, you are detected
"Be aware that some people will argue indefinitely over a moot point. One
of their favorite tactics is to overemphasize a minor point while totally
ignoring a major issue. Avoid this trap! It fills the network with
useless noise and waste time."
http://www.canonicalscience.org/en/miscellaneouszone/guidelines.html

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dlzc - 23 Jul 2008 18:04 GMT
Dear "Juan R." González-Álvarez:
On Jul 23, 5:00 am, "Juan R." González-Álvarez
<juanREM...@canonicalscience.com> wrote:
> dlzc wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:40:43 -0700:
>
> (...)
>
> Your nasty posts in another thread were ignored
> but not more David. See below.
Your opinion of my comments is your problem.
> > Why do you trim the "Followup-To" list on
> > a posting such as this? If you are going
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> As explained before it is a 441 error in my
> newsreader.
You are specifically spamming five newsgroups. Your choice of
newsreader is not usenet's problem. If you can only respond to a
single newsgroup, then you should keep it there.
> I see you are not perturbed by Eric
> posting nonsense,
Your opinions are your problem. Eric posts less nonsense than, for
example, this "sewing circle" discussion you have started here.
> Dono trying to falsify Groups archive
Your tiny little feelings about "ratings" are not usenet's problem
either. They are not recorded outside of Google Groups, and do not
help the conversation.
> and ratings or Tom promoting usual lies
> but you are by technical issue about
> cross-posting.
Tom can be baited into trying to depend himself by various trolls,
where any sane human will accept that Tom is also human. Tom is the
most honorable person (that is still alive) that I know. You however
change your rules because your feelings get hurt. Science is an
atagonistic system. We don't respect others feelings where facts /
data / theory / application are concerned. If you place yourself
between a responder and your pet "theory", and you get shot at, whose
fault is that?
> All of that is fine for you. No? Indeed
> you replied then to me, but you did not
> them.
They rarely post off-topic, typically respond in thread, respond
directly to the OP, and do not constantly change the thread title.
You however expel the contents of your gut on any thread, about anyone
else, and change the thread title despite usenet guidelines.
> In any case, you are detected
Yeah, I've been here since Feb 2000. I'll probably be here a bit
longer.
> "Be aware that some people will argue
> indefinitely over a moot point. One of their
> favorite tactics is to overemphasize a minor
> point while totally ignoring a major issue.
> Avoid this trap! It fills the network with
> useless noise and waste time."
Good point. Can you read your own advice?
David A. Smith
Tonico - 23 Jul 2008 19:18 GMT
> Dear "Juan R." González-Álvarez:
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> David A. Smith
********************************************************
Why won't you guys take your increidibly stupid feuds the f.ck out of
sci.math?
Thanx
Tonio
Juan R. - 23 Jul 2008 09:34 GMT
"Juan R." González-Álvarez wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:22:02 +0200:
> This set of recommendations was first prepared after noticing some nasty
> behaviors on the USENET. Initially, I embraced the usual recommendation
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
>
> canonicalscience.blogspot.com
A copy of this message is also archived in sci.physics.foundations where
I wait feedback from moderators.

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Juan R. - 24 Jul 2008 09:23 GMT
"Juan R." González-Álvarez wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:22:02 +0200:
> This set of recommendations was first prepared after noticing some nasty
> behaviors on the USENET. Initially, I embraced the usual recommendation
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
>
> canonicalscience.blogspot.com
Thanks everyone by feedback. Thanks by kindly words and thanks also by
all the hostile replies.
Latter ones (some very hostile) clearly indicated that I shoot to the
center of the target :-)
Here in thereafter lies, ad hominem, and straw man will be not longer
ignored as before but just noticed each time some troll want to break a
normal thread with usual nasty behavior. Trolls are advised to keep
out :-)

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