Life after Death
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l.arendes@googlemail.com - 19 Sep 2007 08:48 GMT Hi!
Within the research project of Artificial Life (AL), it is tried to simulate life. Good examples are the papers by Terzopoulos. For example, in his paper about fishes (http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~dt/ see Publications - No. 26) his animals show a quite complex and realistic behavior.
On the other hand, scientific research about reincarnation (see Ian Stevenson: Reincarnation), about near-death experiences, and apparitions indicates that something like a soul may survive bodily death.
But if Artificial Life should, in future, be successful in simulating life: Would this mean that there cannot be an entity like the soul which survives death? --- Not necessarily, because for a simulation you need a computer: You need basic software and - above all - a processor. And something like a processor (which uses natural laws as the world software) might be necessary in the real world, too. If there were just one processor for all natural objects in the real world this would be something like a Weltgeist (world spirit). But maybe the world is a multi-processor system, and maybe there is a processor for each living being. These life-specific processors (you may call them entelechy or soul) might be able to control another body after the death of the previous one.
What do you think of these ideas? Can there be any experiments which could test this?
Bye, Lothar Arendes
My homepage-address: http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes
l.arendes@googlemail.com - 19 Sep 2007 08:50 GMT Hi!
As a motivation for the belief that we could survive bodily death I want to quote the abstract of an article by the famous American psychologist Ian Stevenson et al.:
Ian Stevenson & Satwant Pasricha: "A preliminary report on an unusual case of the reincarnation type with xenoglossy". In: The Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, Vol. 74, July 1980: pp. 331-348.
Abstract: The authors report a case of the reincarnation type with several unusual features. First, the subject began to have apparent memories of a previous life when she was in her thirties, a much older age than that of the usual subjects of cases of this type; second, the memories occurred only during periods of marked change in the subject's personality; and third, the new personality that emerged spoke a language (Bengali) that the subject could not speak or understand in her normal state. (She spoke Marathi and had some knowledge of Hindi, Sanskrit, and English.) A careful investigation of the subject's background and early life disclosed no opportunities for her to have learned to speak Bengali before the case developed. A final interpretation of this case cannot be made on the basis of present information and knowledge. The authors, however, believe that, as of now, the data of the case are best accounted for by supposing that the subject has had memories of the life of a Bengali woman who died about 1830.
Bye, Lothar Arendes
http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes/index2.htm
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t - 21 Sep 2007 06:34 GMT > From: l.aren...@googlemail.com > the new personality that emerged spoke a language (Bengali) that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > supposing that the subject has had memories of the life of a > Bengali woman who died about 1830. Or she heard some Bengali during her youth, and subconsciously memorized what she heard, but never understood the grammar until she got into a think-outside-box mode during hypnosis and finally began repeating some of the stuff she had long-before memorized. Given that she knew two other Indian languages, presumably she lived in India and would have had lots of opportunity to hear Bengali occasionally too.
l.arendes@googlemail.com - 21 Sep 2007 08:41 GMT On 21 Sep., 07:34, rem6...@yahoo.com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: l.aren...@googlemail.com
> Or she heard some Bengali during her youth, and subconsciously > memorized what she heard, but never understood the grammar until [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lived in India and would have had lots of opportunity to hear > Bengali occasionally too. Stevenson investigated this case more closely. You are probably wrong with your assumption that she heard Bengali before she started speaking in Bengali. And her grammar was correct without hypnosis. She really lived in India but Bengali is not spoken everywhere in India.
jcon - 21 Sep 2007 14:46 GMT On Sep 21, 2:41 am, l.aren...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 21 Sep., 07:34, rem6...@yahoo.com (Robert Maas, seehttp://tinyurl.com/uh3t) > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > She really lived in India but Bengali is not spoken everywhere in > India. Bengali is the second most spoken language in India, so even in areas where it's not dominant, you're going to find plenty of people who speak it.
Does she live in an are where Bengali is spoken? Has she ever lived in an area where Bengali was spoken? Has she ever had a close acquaintance (friend, nurse, servant, etc) who spoke Bengali?
Also, how much talking did she do? Was it whole conversations, or just a few words? Linguistically, Bengali is strongly related to the languages she speaks (Hindi, Marathi, and Sanskrit), so if it's just a few phrases, it wouldn't be that hard, particularly if her interviewers were "open minded" and wrote off mistakes to "dialectic variation".
Finally, how can one prove she didn't just study Bengali to get some notoriety?
I think I have a different definition of Occam's Razor than you do.
-jc
l.arendes@googlemail.com - 25 Sep 2007 09:38 GMT On 21 Sep., 07:34, rem6...@yahoo.com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: l.aren...@googlemail.com Of course, it is hard to demonstrate the validity of empirical data in a newsgroup of the internet. To validate the reports about the claimed memories of previous lifes we would need to discuss great parts of Stevenson`s book about reincarnation. But - for the sake of argument - if you make the assumption that the data are correct and that we cannot explain them away by assuming that the child picked the information up unconsciously - what would you say then?
There are also some other types of phenomena: near-death experiences, apparitions etc. Do you think that all these phenomena are pure hallucinations?
Bye, L.A.
By the way , on my side of the internet, in Germany, I get the information that there were 5 messages within this thread, but I can see only four (three by me, one by you, Robert Maas, to which I now answer again). Should there be one more message which I do not get?
mike3 - 25 Sep 2007 22:15 GMT On Sep 25, 2:38 am, l.aren...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 21 Sep., 07:34, rem6...@yahoo.com (Robert Maas, seehttp://tinyurl.com/uh3t) > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cannot explain them away by assuming that the child picked the > information up unconsciously - what would you say then? Why could not such a great-length discussion be done, anyway?
l.arendes@googlemail.com - 26 Sep 2007 09:33 GMT > On Sep 25, 2:38 am, l.aren...@googlemail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Why could not such a great-length discussion be done, > anyway? This can be done but I would have to quote very often from the book because this is a very complicated topic.
Anyway, my point of view is the following: We cannot prove that all data and the survival interpretation are correct, and that is the reason why I prefer to construct a theory at first which entails survival (for example on the basis of my processor interpretation of Aristotle`s entelechy) and then to check whether this theory can make new predictions which can be tested experimentally. If such a theory could be found and if new data could be gathered on the basis of this theory then this would be a hint that also the present data were valide. Without any theory all data are questionable.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t - 29 Sep 2007 22:58 GMT > From: l.aren...@googlemail.com > ... it is hard to demonstrate the validity of empirical data in > a newsgroup of the internet. But you can summarize the main jist of the evidence, and we can discuss whether such evidence, even if true, supported the hypothesis, or supported alternate hypotheses.
> To validate the reports about the claimed memories of previous > lifes we would need to discuss great parts of Stevenson`s book > about reincarnation. Surely you can write a Web page that summarizes some of the evidence?
> But - for the sake of argument - if you make the assumption that > the data are correct and that we cannot explain them away by > assuming that the child picked the information up unconsciously - > what would you say then? The most likely conclusion is that the assumption you ask me to make is mistaken. We can never be sure the child didn't hear the language by accident, at a time where the responsible parents wouldn't now remember, and the child while remembering the syntax wouldn't remember where she heard it before. For example, a baby-sitter could have used the non-local dialect while talking with her boyfriend (on phone) to avoid eavesdroppers hearing sexy talk. The parent probably didn't pay attention to the private call, and wouldn't remember that a non-local dialect had been spoken years ago.
> There are also some other types of phenomena: near-death > experiences, apparitions etc. Do you think that all these > phenomena are pure hallucinations? Yes, in the sense of malfunctions of nerve-cell systems when under stress of oxygen deprivation.
> By the way , on my side of the internet, in Germany, I get the > information that there were 5 messages within this thread, but I > can see only four (three by me, one by you, Robert Maas, to which I > now answer again). I got a similar effect in Google Groups. Are you using GG there?
> Should there be one more message which I do not get? Probably yes.
Let me try indented-thread view right now: 1 l.aren...@googlemail.com Sep 19 2 l.aren...@googlemail.com Sep 19 3 Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t Sep 21 4 l.aren...@googlemail.com Sep 21 5 jcon Sep 21 **MISSING** 6 l.aren...@googlemail.com Sep 25 7 mike3 Sep 25 8 l.aren...@googlemail.com Sep 26 Indeed, one message (5.) in indented view but not in group-of-ten. Google Groups is still seriously broken!!
l.arendes@googlemail.com - 02 Oct 2007 10:00 GMT As I wrote in my previous post: Without any underlying (and experimentally tested) theory all data are questionable: This includes your interpretation that children who speak in a foreign language always picked it up somewhere and sometime (and maybe subconsciously), and your other interpretation that all other phenomena related to the survival hypothesis were hallucinations made by the brain physiology. I doubt that all these data can be explained away in this way, but my point of view is like your one a subjective feeling, and therefore it would be better to have experimentally tested theories about consciousness (e.g., consciousness as a pure brain property or as something else) and about the nature of life (biodynamics) as it is investigated within the research project "Artificial Life".
l.arendes@googlemail.com - 22 Nov 2007 13:19 GMT On 29 Sep., 22:58, rem6...@yahoo.com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: l.aren...@googlemail.com > > ... it is hard to demonstrate the validity of empirical data in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > discuss whether such evidence, even if true, supported the > hypothesis, or supported alternate hypotheses. No matter how much I would write about these investigations you can always find something to criticize. All data can be criticized when they do not have an underlying theory. But I wrote a short essay about the possibility of life after bodily death:
The URL of it is: http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes/survival.htm
Here is my essay:
"Empirical phenomena
There are several kinds of empirical phenomena which parapsychologists who believe that our bodily death would not be the complete end of our existence adduce as arguments in favour of the survival hypothesis. While having an out-of-body experience (see, e.g., Green 1968; Sabom 1982) you have the feeling to be outside of your body, to fly about, and to see your own body and your environment from other perspectives than the eyes of your body have. Some people believe that this phenomenon would indicate that our consciousness could exist without our physical body, and in a similar way the spirits of the deceaseds would exist and would be able to give us messages, for example, with the help of trance media. During the sitting of trance mediumship (e.g., James 1910; Lodge 1917; Broad 1962, 1980; Gauld 1983), someone (mostly a woman) is in trance and seems to be in contact with a spirit (pretendedly by telepathy) who is called the control. Sometimes this control would even take possession of the medium`s body and would use her speech organs to convey messages. The control pretends to be in contact with a deceased (the so-called communicator) who usually is a relative or a friend of somebody sitting together with them (the so- called sitter). The messages which are conveyed by the control and with the medium`s help are mostly information about the deceased`s terrestrial life and about his behavioural characteristics which in some cases seem to match the deceased`s memory structure at the end of his life quite well and which also seem to correspond to his characteristic and idiomatic expressions, his humour, gesturing etc. In other situations deceaseds are to be able to show themselves as so- called apparitions within our physical world (see, e.g., Green, McCreery 1975; Hart et al. 1956). An apparition seems to be physically existant just like normal material objects and completely or partly has a body which the deceased had in the lifetime. Another type of phenomena are the death-bed visions (see Barrett 1926; Osis, Haraldsson 1977). In these visions the dying (or very sick) person sees deceased relatives, friends, or any other and seemingly divine beings (angels, Krishna, Maria etc.) who want to take him to the other world. Such spirits (light beings) are also seen within the near-death experiences (NDE). An NDE (see Moody 1976; Ring 1982, 1984) occur to people who are very close to their bodily death - people who are clinically dead, are in coma etc. During such an experience they initially have an out-of-body experience, they can see their own body, then fly into the other world, talk to divine beings or deceaseds there but are sent back to our material world because they would not yet be ready to die. Finally, in hypnotic age regressions of the reincarnation cases people pretend to remember to have already lived in the past (see Bernstein 1965; Stevenson 1984; Stevenson, Pasricha 1980) but more interesting are spontaneous cases of children who identify themselves with someone who had lived earlier. These children can give a lot of information about their pretended former lifes (where the deceased lived, about his or her environment, the friends, relatives etc.) what the children should normally not know (see Stevenson 1974).
Theoretical considerations
Those people who do not believe that all these phenomena of apparitions, death-bed visions, near-death experience, mediumship, reincarnation memories, and out-of-body experiences would be indications of a possible survival of bodily death mainly pretend that these experiences would be hallucinations (see Carr 1982; Hilgard 1986; Hövelmann 1985; Noyes 1972; Noyes et al. 1977; Rodin 1980, 1989; Roll 1982; Siegel 1977, 1983). But since we do nowadays not have a generally accepted scientific worldview because of the problems of interpretation of quantum mechanics, and since we do not have experimentally tested theories of consciousness and of the nature of life (no biodynamics which explains the seemingly teleonomic, goal- directed, behaviour of physiological processes - although Haken`s theory of synergetics is already quite interesting) one should be very careful with claiming that all these parapsychological phenomena would be only hallucinations. The survival hypothesis is not yet a fully elaborated and experimentally tested theory but this is true for the alternative explanations (everything would just be a hallucination, fraud, cryptoamnesia etc.), too. If there were only one type of phenomena, for example, only trance mediumship then it would be near at hand to assume that the medium`s reports were a fabricating, an invention of stories, maybe with the help of telepathy to get the necessary true information about persons and events in the past. Alternatively, if there were just the one type of apparition phenomena then also the hallucination interpretation would be acceptable. And if there were just the reincarnation cases then it would make sense to assume that these children would suffer from the psychopathological disease of multiple personality (Hilgard 1986) and that they wrongly interpret their knowledge (maybe gained by telepathy) as a remembering of an earlier life. But all these different kinds of phenomena taken together indicate that there could be some truth in the survival hypothesis - at least, all these phenomena should give enough motivation for a scientific research project to investigate the phenomena and the conceivable explanations more closely.
Of course, you can argue that all these phenomena would be created by our death fear; our death fear would again and again produce any effects to console us with the belief in a future life. But on the other hand, which convincing arguments do we really have in favour of the point of view that the bodily death would be the complete end? We observe that every higher organism disintigrates sometime but in science we must also consider that there are unobservable things and that such an unobservable entity may survive the decay of the body. A further argument in favour of the complete end is our missing memory of previous lifes (apart from the pretended memories of the reincarnation cases) but hardly have we memories even of our present early childhood so that memories of a previous life should be improbable anyway. Finally, a scientist may object to the survival hypothesis that neuroscience has demonstrated that our cognitive abilities and our memory depend on our brain which decays at the end of our biological life. But so far neuroscience has not been able to find statisfactory physiological theories of consciousness, memory, and biodynamics. All empirical results of neuroscience (for example, memory deficits after destruction of specific brain areas, or an enhancement of cognitive abilities by injection of specific pharmacological substances) would also be possible if the surviving factor of bodily death (a soul, entelechy, or a vital force) and the brain together formed one system so that the manipulation of one part of the system would influence the whole system (s. Broad 1962, 1980). As long as there is no scientifically tested consciousness theory and no theory of life it cannot convincingly be stated that all arguments for the survival hypothesis would not have any value. Couldn`t it be in reverse that the belief in arguments for absolute death is a wishful thinking of people who got used to a materialistic worldview and who are now unable to change their mind?
Because of the empirical data and on the basis of my theoretical research on consciousness and biodynamics (see Arendes b, c, 1996) I tend to accept the survival hypothesis what I now want to describe more exactly. In several books and essays (Arendes a, f, 1992) I compared the world with a computer. According to this analogy, our four-dimensional spacetime with its material objects correspond to the computer display with its graphical objects and the natural laws correspond to the software, and within this point of view one can take a soul or the aristotelian entelechy (a concept which I prefer) as a processor which controls an organism. The world would be a multi- processor system, and every processor would control one specific organism just like a multi-processor computer can generate several graphical objects, and different processors could be responsible for different objects. A processor is the heart of a computer, it controls the data processing, accomplishes computations, stores results, and arranges the input and output of the data. It is also possible, for example, that whenever a new graphical object is created after another graphical object has been destroyed the processor of the old one could start to control the new one which would correspond to a reincarnation within the real world.
This worldview can also be described without using the analogical computer metaphor, and in my theory of biodynamics parameters of the quantum vacuum are responsible for the teleonomy of the physiological processes (see Arendes d, f). Additionally, I proposed a physical theory of consciousness (s. Arendes b, c, f, 1996) which allows the possibility that consciousness could exist without the existence of a brain. Within this theory I compare consciousness with spacetime of gravitation theory by using the field equations of general relativity theory. These field equations state that the structure of spacetime is a function of matter or energy, and in an analogous way we need field equations stating that our consciousness is a function of brain matter. But interestingly, the field equations of relativity theory allow the existence of spacetime without the existence of matter, and analogously consciousness equations are consceivable allowing the existence of consciousness without a brain. In this case, parameters within quantum vacuum (which also play a role within my general theory of biodynamics) could be part of the personality and could partly survive bodily death. Finally, in this context the theories of the theoretical physicist Burkhard Heim (1983, 1989, 1994) are worth to mention. Heim proposed a theory which is a unification of general relativity theory and elementary particle physics, and within this theory our spacetime is embedded into a higher dimensional world (having six or even twelve dimensions), and within the higher dimensions structures of our personality could exist also after our bodily death (Heim 1994).
Proposals for a research project
My processor hypothesis can be investigated within the research area of Artificial Life (AL) (see Adami 1998; Langton 1995). Within AL scientists try to find the basic principles of life, either by using computer simulations of biological organisms and artificial beings, or by constructing apparently life-similar machines (robots). Since a processor is necessary for a simulation anyway one can add to these simulation programs several simulated processors, and each processor should control a specific simulated organism. In this way the functions of processors in relation to a population of organisms can be investigated more closely. For example, after the death of an organism its processor could take over the control of a new-born organism whereby this new one could show a behaviour which was a characteristic of the deceased one. Maybe such kinds of simulations will some day give us ideas for experimental tests of the survival hypothesis with real organisms."
Bye, Lothar
My pdf-files are on the following homepage: http://mitglied.lycos.de/LotharArendes
l.arendes@googlemail.com - 22 Nov 2007 17:03 GMT Here is the literature chapter of my essay:
References
Adami, C. (1998): Introduction to Artificial Life. New York.
Arendes, L. (a): Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics: The Computer- Worldview. http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes/cwv. htm.
Arendes, L. (b): Challenges to Theoretical Biophysics: Consciousness, Functionalism, and Free Will. http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes/bio.htm.
Arendes, L. (c): The mind-body problem. http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes/mbp.htm.
Arendes, L. (d): Fundamentals of the Scientific Conception of the World. http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes/swc.htm.
Arendes, L. (e): Parapsychologische Untersuchungen zur Hypothese vom Überleben des körperlichen Todes. Zusammenfassung meines Buches über die Überlebenshypothese. (Aufsatz) http://freenet-homepage.de/LotharArendes/entelechie.htm.
Arendes, L. (f): Das Computer-Weltbild. Funktionen der Naturphilosophie in der Naturwissenschaft.
Arendes, L. (g): Die wissenschaftliche Weltauffassung an der Jahrtausendwende.
Arendes, L. (h): Gibt es ein Überleben des körperlichen Todes? Empirische Untersuchungen und theoretische Überlegungen der Parapsychologie zur Überlebenshypothese. (Buch)
Arendes, L. (1992): Gibt die Physik Wissen über die Natur? Das Realismusproblem in der Quantenmechanik. Würzburg.
Arendes, L. (1996): 'Ansätze zur physikalischen Untersuchung des Leib- Seele-Problems'. Philosophia Naturalis 33: 55-81.
Barrett, W. F. (1926): Death-bed visions. London.
Bernstein, M. (1965): The Search for Bridey Murphy. New York.
Broad, C. D. (1962): Lectures on Psychical Research. New York.
Broad, C. D. (1980): The Mind and its Place in Nature. London.
Carr, D. (1982): 'Pathophysiology of Stress-Induced Limbic Lobe Dysfunction: A Hypothesis for NDEs'. Anabiosis 2: 75-89.
Gauld, A. (1983): Mediumship and Survival. A Century of Investigations. London.
Green, C. (1968): Out-of-the-Body-Experiences. Oxford.
Green, C., McCreery, C. (1975): Apparitions. London.
Haken, H. (1977): Synergetics. An Introduction. Berlin
Hart, H., et al. (1956): 'Six Theories About Apparitions'. Proc. Soc. Psych. Res. 50: 153- 239.
Heim, B. (1983): Elementarstrukturen der Materie: Einheitliche strukturelle Quantenfeldtheorie der Materie und Gravitation. Bd. 2. Innsbruck.
Heim, B. (1989): Elementarstrukturen der Materie: Einheitliche strukturelle Quantenfeldtheorie der Materie und Gravitation. Bd. 1. Innsbruck.
Heim, B. (1994): Postmortale Zustände? Die televariante Area integraler Weltstrukturen. Innsbruck.
Hilgard, E. R. (1986): Divided Consciousness: Multiple Controls in Human Thought and Action. New York.
Hövelmann, G. H. (1985): 'Evidence for Survival from Near-Death Experiences? A Critical Appraisal'. In: P. Kurtz (ed.): A Skeptic's Handbook of Parapsychology. Buffalo, pp. 645-684.
James, W. (1910): 'Report on Mrs. Piper's Hodgson-Control'. Proc. Soc. Psych. Res. 23: 2-121.
Langton, C. G. (ed.) (1995): Artificial Life. An Overview. Cambridge, Mass.
Lodge, O. (1917): Raymond or Life and Death. With examples of the evidence for survival of memory and affection after death. London.
Moody, R. A. (1976): Life after Life. New York.
Noyes, R. (1972): 'The experience of dying'. Psychiatry 35: 174-184.
Noyes, R., Hoenk, P. R., Kuperman, S., Slymen, D. J. (1977): 'Depersonalization in accident victims and psychiatric patients'. Jn. of Nervous and Mental Disease: 164: 401-407.
Osis, K., Haraldsson, E. (1977): At the Hour of Death. New York.
Ring, K. (1982): Life at Death. A Scientific Investigation of the Near- Death Experience. New York.
Ring, K. (1984): Heading Toward Omega: In Search of the Meaning of the Near-Death Experience. New York.
Rodin, E. A. (1980): 'The Reality of Death Experiences. A Personal Perspective'. Jn. of Nervous and Mental Disease 168: 259-263.
Rodin, E. (1989): 'Comments on ''A Neurobiological Model for Near- Death Experiences'''. Jn. of Near-Death Studies 7(4): 255-259.
Roll, W. R. (1982): 'The Changing Perspective on Life after Death'. In: S. Krippner (ed.): Advances in Parapsychological Research. Vol. 3. New York.
Sabom, M. B. (1982): Recollections of death: A medical investigation. New York.
Siegel, R. K. (1977): 'Hallucinations'. Scientific American 237: 132-140.
Siegel, R. K. (1983): 'Life After Death'. In: G. O. Abell, B. Singer (ed.): Science and the Paranormal. Probing the Existence of the Supernatural. New York.
Stevenson, I. (1974): Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation. Charlotteville.
Stevenson, I. (1984): Unlearned Language. New Studies in Xenoglossy. Charlottesville.
Stevenson, I., Pasricha, S. (1980): 'A preliminary report on an unusual case of the reincarnation type with xenoglossy.' Jn. Am. Soc. Psych. Res. 74: 331-348.
Thouless, R. H. (1984): 'Do We Survive Bodily Death?' Proc. Soc. Psych. Res. 57: 1-52.
Bye!
http://LotharArendes.blogspot.com
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