Natural Science Forum / Biology / Evolution / July 2009

On Jun 7, 2:42=A0pm, "Tom Hendricks / Musea" <tom-hendri...@att.net>
wrote:

s

ch

b=3D

ch

s

..

if=3D

    The young also memorize more than the old. A toddler learns most
of vocabulary the adult will have. They learn walking, eating,
drinking, social interactions, etc. It seems to me that more sleep is
required at those stages of growth where the brain is learning the
faster.
    It seems to me that there are two natural processes that explains
the tendency you describe, neither of which have anything to do with
digestion. First, the toddler is protected by its mother. There is no
point to moving around. A toddler moving around in the wild can not
defend itself, but could get killed. A toddler that sleeps in its nest
is much safer. So either type of sleep, REM or nonREM, is useful for
the toddler. Sleep keeps them out of trouble. Second, the toddler is
learning lots of new things. The toddler needs REM sleep to move items
from short term memory into long term memory. If it hears a word, and
makes an association, then the may know the word for a short time.
However, it will be forgotten unless it is moved into long term
memory. Supposedly, a lot of that goes on during REM sleep.
   Of course, the rest of the body is growing faster at these younger
stages also. However, that doesn't mean sleep is needed for growth of
other parts of the body. One can make a correlation between sleep and
any other process that is faster for youth.
     As I understand it, most of the replenishing for sleep occurs in
the brain. Very little repair requires sleep other than brain cells.
Sleep in mammals appears to help the brain the most, and effects the
rest of the body mainly through the brain. Mammals, especially human
beings, learn throughout their lives. However, old individuals learn
at a significantly slower pace than young individuals.
   A 70 year old can't learn English as fast as a 1 year old,
although the 70 year old can certainly learn English. Furthermore, the
70 year old needs less sleep than the 1 year old. The 70 year old may
need no sleep at all. They still have to go to the bathroom, however.
     The replenshment idea may have partial truth in it, but it is
too vague to be useful. What parts of the body get "replenished," and
what does "replenishment" mean? I suspect you are trying to get back
to your "sleep=3Ddigestion model".  However, you have no established a
strong correlation between sleep and digestion.
     If you want to investigate whether there is a correlation
between sleep and digestion, then you have to study digestion. You
have not presented any direct connection between sleep and digestion.
You can't connect sleep with something (age, in this post), connect
that something with digestion, and then claim that sleep is connected
with digestion.

On Jun 8, 12:46=A0pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:

ed

se=3D

r,

be

hi=3D

e

ps=3D

hi=3D

se=3D

r,

ea=3D

_l=3D

st

ins

r

in

a

I'm beginning to think that the term digestion is too limiting. And it
suggests isolated
processes. I think perhaps the better term is all food in, and all
waste out, no matter
what cell of the body is involved.
IOW any aspect of the body that builds up, or any aspect of the body
that breaks down.
I think the anabolic, catabolic split is pretty specific though.

On Jun 9, 12:15=A0pm, "Tom Hendricks / Musea" <tom-hendri...@att.net>
wrote:

te:

it=3D

H]

es=3D

la=3D

s =3D

w=3D

ar=3D

ha=3D

w=3D

es=3D

la=3D

id=3D

of=3D

e

r

e

earns mo=3D

at expla=3D

younge=3D

p occurs=3D

ut it is

ished =3D

tion

   Maybe the word you are looking for is metabolism rather than
digestion.
   I recall an article in Discover exploring the evolutionary reasons
for sleep. I don't remember the exact date, sorry. However, it showed
correlations between sleep, total weight of animal, and lifespan of
animal. The author tried to explain both REM sleep and nonREM sleep.
He did mention something about metabolism and nerve cells, not a
general rejuvenatation of the body.
   I believe he looked only at mammals. Therefore, we can't use these
results to extrapolate the origin of dormancy. However, mammalian
sleep has different functions than fish. Since you are interested in
human sleep, his conclusion may be of interest. However, I agree that
the origin of dormancy probably started with our fish ancestors trying
to hide at night.
   I'll tell you what I remember. maybe you can find the article.
   First, REM sleep incresed with the lifespan of the animal. The
author attributed that to the processing of memory. Many studies show
that short term memory is turned to long term memory during REM sleep.
Memory is most important to an animal with a long lifespan. So natural
selection for long lived mammals favor sleep.
    Second, nonREM sleep decreased with the total size (weight) of
the animal. This he associated with repair of nerve cells. Small
animals have a higher metabolism. Higher metabolism generates free
radicals that destroy cells. Nerve cells are more sensitive to free
radicals because they don't reproduce fast. So the extra sleep in this
case was associated with repair of nerve cells.
   The second correlation sounds like a subset of what you have in
mind. NonREM sleep is for "rejuvenation" of nerve cells. If we
generalize his reasoning just a little bit, we can argue that nonREM
sleep is for the rejuvenation of any cell that reproduces slowly. Any
cell that doesn't reproduce (like spinal cord nerve cells) can't be
replaced. They can only be repaired at best.
     This doesn't precisely match your model, though it comes close.
Cells that reproduce rapidly (e.g., stem cells) would be more
replaceable than slow moving cells, and so don't need repair.
Therefore, sleep would not be needed to rejuvenate them. The idea of
over all "rejuvenation" doesn't quite fit.
   Again, I think we are talking about present day mammals. The
premammal origin of dormancy may be very well hiding from enemies. I
think that function is still important for juvenile mammals.

   It's fairly specific to a biochemist, but you haven't presented
any knowledge of what these process are. Further, you haven't
established the connection with sleep. I think you are trying to
associate the anabolic processes with nonREM sleep and the catabolic
processes with wakefulness. However, you have not provided evidence or
even a hypothesis that these associations exist.
    An anabolic process is where big molecules break down. A
catabolic process is where small molecules come together to form
large molecules. You provide no evidence that either type of process
has a cyclic nature during the day. In fact, you haven't even
presented that as a hypothesis. You have provided nothing to test,
even in principle.
    Speculating is fine. However, it doesn't sound like you are even
speculating. Your introspection and dreams, from which you said you
obtain some of this, may be uncovering more personal issues than
physiology. If you want to put forward a speculation the rest of us
can appreciate, you have to exhibit a little extrinsic knowledge. Such
as knowing what exactly a biochemist means by anabolic or catabolic.

On Jun 12, 5:22=A0pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:

..net=3D

wro=3D

ed=3D

JA=3D

oc=3D

cu=3D

ap=3D

ng=3D

y =3D

er=3D

ng=3D

oc=3D

cu=3D

n =3D

n_=3D

n

th=3D

he=3D

b=3D

oddler l=3D

esses th=3D

t

s

these =3D

for slee=3D

old,

e

in it, b=3D

establ=3D

correla=3D

s

e

e.

Thanks for your comments. I've gotten this far through investigating
my own life through some basic self hypnosis practices over decades.
What starts out as a simple yes or no  response on the subconscious
level,
can be developed such that  some basic directions -
and they are somewhat vague - on how
the body works can surface after decades of trial and error.

The overriding message that my body tells me  is a sense of
simplicity, that
food in waste out is the key, and that sex is important too.
That once you set up a cell you have
food in /waste out that further goes to 4 options. And that two of
those
involve waking, and two sleep.
Now you may want me to spell out all the evidence.  But I assure you
this
is so preliminary that to even spell out the hypothesis is a
challenge.

But I can tell you that your body, not your mind is in charge. And it
follows
the basics of food in and waste out.

And once even a yes/no system is set up with your subconscious, or
unconscious
(and that is controversial) I claim you can find some basic facts
about how the
body works, why we sleep, why the body is basically for what nurtures,
and against
what's bad etc. etc. And that this is universal with all living
things.

Now I will say this. In this inchoate period, all I can expect is that
others look.
Look with an open mind, I think you'll find evidence to fit  and very
little evidence
that does not fit- though again at this
early early early stage, I can only surmise the basics. But those
basics
are getting more and more specific and as I have pointed out, more and
more
and more of the aspects of life, waking/sleep, male/female, the work
of Karen Horney,
catabolic, anabolic, food in / waste out, etc. etc.  do all fit.

Here's another article on sleep from
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-sleep15-2009jun15,0,6989411.story

Here's a quote

"Insomnia seems to be caused by excessive metabolic activity in the
brain's frontal cortex. For deep, refreshing sleep to occur, the
frontal cortex has to rest, said Dr. Eric Nofzinger, a professor of
psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh.

Research on brain injuries has shown that cooling the brain reduces
metabolic activity. Nofzinger and his colleagues decided to try the
same concept on insomnia by designing a device that gently cools the
frontal cortex during sleep. "

Note the metabolic connection.

I've taken out the gibberish.

In the previous post, I suggested that REM sleep disorders were
associated with obesity.

Please see
http://esciencenews.com/dictionary/rem.sleep

I''ve suggested that NREM sleep is for replenishing the body.

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/sleep_disorders/hic_sleep_basics.aspx

During NREM sleep, the body repairs and regenerates tissues, builds
bone and muscle, and appears to strengthen the immune system. As you
get older, you get less NREM sleep. People under age 30 have about two
hours of restorative sleep every night, while those over 65 might get
only 30 minutes.

This is more support for my ideas.

LZ4n1Wp&sig=a-MiMyeo6FERuvggXOFVx_fgMcs&hl=en&ei=eyBIStDVN4ikMOPj9KsB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1(Page 54)

"Note there is an uptake of colonic motor activities just before
waking. This finding coinciding with the morning sensation of need to
empty the bowels."

This finding fits the idea that the 2nd part of sleep is prepare waste
out.

I've suggested that through the child-mother bond during
breastfeeding,  a pattern of metabolism is set up that is almost
impossible to change.

I've also suggested that sleep is half of this metabolism cycle with
two distinct periods: NREM or deep sleep, and REM lighter sleep with
many dreams.

NREM, I suggest is  for replenishing the body.
REM, I suggest is for preparing waste out.

Now I'd like to go further and suggest that this pattern can have two
problems one with each section of sleep. They are:

1. too little NREM or deep sleep, REM normal -
The child becomes an adult  that is most notably THIN. There is a
sense that there is not enough replenishment.  The  "waste out" option
may be over emphasized.
To resolve the problem the adult needs a new pattern of sleep that
gets more NREM sleep.

2. too little REM or dream sleep, NREM or deep sleep is normal -
The child becomes an adult that is most notably FAT. There is a sense
that too little is being excreted out. The "replenish the body",
option may be over emphasized.
To resolve the problem the adult needs a new pattern of sleep that
gets more REM sleep.

There is no problem with too much deep sleep, and/or too much REM
sleep. The adult just wakes up.

There is a quick way to check this idea.  Thin people should have
sleep disorders of too little deep sleep in all cases. Fat people
should have sleep disorders of too little REM sleep in all cases.

Comment?

If the points in this discussion are true, then we have a clue to
certain chronic diseases.

Sleep = 2 parts

Part one - NREM or the deep sleep, used to replenish the body.
If there is a problem with too little NREM sleep,  the body type will
be thin, underweight, and undernourished.

Now I think we can add this = liable to all ailments and diseases of
being undernourished., health problems of being too thin,
psychological problems of being too thin and underweight.

Part two - REM sleep, used to prepare waste out.
If there is a problem with too little REM sleep, the body type will be
fat, overweight, too little waste out.

Now I think we can add this = liable to all ailments and diseases of
not getting all waste out, health problems of being too fat,
psychological problems of being too fat and overweight.

If I am correct, then in every case those who have thin body type
should have trouble with to little NREM sleep, and those who have fat
body type should have trouble with REM sleep.

Here is more support. This for lack of REM sleep =3D obesity

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=3DREM+sleep+obesity&page=3D1&qsrc=3D0&ab=3D4&u=3Dh=
ttp%3A%2F%2Flin.ca%2Fresource-details%2F12376

Reuters Health (August 4, 2008 By: JULIE STEENHUYSEN) writes that
studies have shown that children and teens who fail to get the proper
amount of sleep each night are more prone to obesity, and researchers
now think it may be linked to a particular stage of sleep. They said
not spending enough time in rapid eye movement (REM) sleep =96 the kind
normally associated with dreaming =96 significantly increased the odds
of obesity in children and teens.

On Jun 29, 11:46=A0am, Tom Hendricks <tom-hendri...@att.net> wrote:

Here is a study that I found interesting with its look at deep sleep ,
NREM and starvation.
Remember I suggest that NREM problems lead to underweight and thin
body type.

Regarding the effects of starvation on sleep regulation, recent
research in healthy humans and in animals demonstrates that such a
condition results in a fragmentation of sleep and a reduction of slow
wave sleep.

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1087079202001223

This study shows a connection between underweight health problems and
sleep disorders.

See  Sleep Disturbance  Associated with Eating Disorders section

=9R4loZkI5K&sig=yZ8HzGoA-FBkCkpsZrYZtCBj-MY&hl=en&ei=TCROSpqVIJGKMuaPnO4D&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

On Jun 29, 11:46=A0am, Tom Hendricks <tom-hendri...@att.net> wrote:

See this too for more connection between REM sleep problems and
obesity.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-1/REM-sleep-associated-with-overw=
eight-in-children-and-adolescents-21643-1/

I've re posted this with a workable url.

This study shows a connection between underweight health problems and
sleep disorders.

See  Sleep Disturbance  Associated with Eating Disorders section

http://tinyurl.com/nzs36j