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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Fusion / March 2006



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Plasma Physics

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John Schutkeker - 12 Mar 2006 02:32 GMT
Are there any situations in plasma physics where it is useful to employ
Bernoulli's Law rather than the Navier Stokes Equation?
Bruce Scott TOK - 13 Mar 2006 19:12 GMT
>Are there any situations in plasma physics where it is useful to employ
>Bernoulli's Law rather than the Navier Stokes Equation?

The latter is an integral of the former, under really simple boundary
conditions.

Signature

ciao,
Bruce

drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/

uri - 15 Mar 2006 22:25 GMT
Plasma cosmology makes more sense than the other theories because it
introduces a new phase of matter.

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-CMBR.htm
John Schutkeker - 16 Mar 2006 08:00 GMT
"uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in news:1142457905.912038.133250
@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Plasma cosmology makes more sense than the other theories because it
> introduces a new phase of matter.
>
> http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-CMBR.htm

No argument here.  The only reason it's been left out of current theories
is because it's hard enough doing the cosmology without plasma.  Adding
plasma effectively doubles the difficulty, so it halves the likelihood that
you'll be able to find an important problem simple enough to solve and get
a publication out of.
Cary Jamison - 16 Mar 2006 17:38 GMT
> "uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in news:1142457905.912038.133250
> @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Plasma cosmology makes more sense than the other theories because it
>> introduces a new phase of matter.

Definitely, that's great logic!  The more stuff we make up the more 'sense'
it makes!
If anyone ever points out how wrong we are, we can just make up even more
stuff.

Cary
John Schutkeker - 16 Mar 2006 17:47 GMT
>> "uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in news:1142457905.912038.133250
>> @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If anyone ever points out how wrong we are, we can just make up even
> more stuff.

Let me guess, that most advanced science course you ever took was the
highest one required by your mediocre public school.
Cary Jamison - 17 Mar 2006 18:16 GMT
>>> "uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in news:1142457905.912038.133250
>>> @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Let me guess, that most advanced science course you ever took was the
> highest one required by your mediocre public school.

See!  There ya go making up stuff!

Cary
John Schutkeker - 19 Mar 2006 18:31 GMT
"Cary Jamison" <CaryJ@MailAndNews.com> wrote in news:441aeeed$0$49542
$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:

>>>> "uri" <danny99@bezeqint.net> wrote in news:1142457905.912038.133250
>>>> @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> See!  There ya go making up stuff!

Tell me about the advanced science classes you've taken.
Cary Jamison - 21 Mar 2006 17:31 GMT
> "Cary Jamison" <CaryJ@MailAndNews.com> wrote in news:441aeeed$0$49542
> $892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Tell me about the advanced science classes you've taken.

Trying an appeal to (non)authority?  You should know better than that!
Let's just say that your guess was wrong; I see no reason to go further than
that.

My original comments were mostly in response to the website referenced in
the post I was responding to.  It appeared from a cursory glance to be a
kook website (some mix of religion, philosophy, cosmology, etc.) - and since
I, admittedly, am not familiar with plasma cosmology I took the entire post
to be a kook post.

This thread is cross-posted into groups neither you nor uri frequent.  A
quick check of other posts of yours seems to indicate that neither of you
are kooks.  So, I'll admit I may have a thing or two to learn about plasma
cosmology, but I still wouldn't trust the referenced website.

Cary
John Schutkeker - 22 Mar 2006 09:51 GMT
>> "Cary Jamison" <CaryJ@MailAndNews.com> wrote in news:441aeeed$0$49542
>> $892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> - and since I, admittedly, am not familiar with plasma cosmology I
> took the entire post to be a kook post.

Maybe I didn't notice the kook site, as I don't click on every link people
post.  Or perhaps I'm too big a fan of the contribution of science to
philosophy.  After all, the diffusion of the 2nd law into popular
consciousness created (or assisted) Beat Generation poets in their, sadly
pessimistic, social commentary.  That was important for the advancement of
human thought.

My old plasma physics boss from UT Austin, Toshi Tajima, who had an endowed
appointment in two different departments, although he still wasn't a full
professor, formulated an idea he calls the electric universe. He apparently
thinks that electrostatics give a good correction to a gravitational
cosmology.

Of course, the magnetostatic contribution is already well observed,
although possibly not well understood theoretically.  There is a measurable
galactic magnetic field, which requires a galactic current density, and
that does suggest (although not require) a charge density, according to
continuity.  So there may be some good possibilities for projects here.

> This thread is cross-posted into groups neither you nor uri frequent.
> A quick check of other posts of yours seems to indicate that neither
> of you are kooks.  So, I'll admit I may have a thing or two to learn
> about plasma cosmology, but I still wouldn't trust the referenced
> website.

That's certainly true, although I applaud the religious people for at least
staying abreast of the advances in physics.  Perhaps I'm being too
charitable, but I believe that anything that inspires people to study
science can't be *all* bad.  Better to misinterpret science than deny it,
like the anti-evolutionists.

In their own strange way, religious kooks follow something that vaguely
resembles the scientific method.  They *do* constantly revise their
theories to accommodate new developments.  Their problem is that they start
with an assumption that is not allowed to be questioned.  Thus they can
never get to the "right" answer, because their thinking isn't plastic
enough.

So perhaps the scientific method is built in to the thinking of reasonable
people.  That would suggest that it confers an evolutionary advantage, and
natural selection has occurred to reinforce it, over long time scales.
uri - 16 Mar 2006 21:26 GMT
> No argument here.  The only reason it's been left out of current theories
> is because it's hard enough doing the cosmology without plasma.  Adding
> plasma effectively doubles the difficulty, so it halves the likelihood that
> you'll be able to find an important problem simple enough to solve and get
> a publication out of.

It's because these phenomena are nonlinear. We need a lot of
computational power to solve them. But modern computer algebra systems
makes these tasks much easier.
John Schutkeker - 19 Mar 2006 18:30 GMT
>> No argument here.  The only reason it's been left out of current
>> theories is because it's hard enough doing the cosmology without
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It's because these phenomena are nonlinear. We need a lot of
> computational power to solve them.

Yes and no.  IMO not enough people are searching for closed form
solutions to nonlinear problems, especially now that chaos and
bifurcation theories are well founded. Admittedly, you need the
computers to generate the pictures of the bifurcation sets, but they're
just there to guide you, and once you see the pic, you start doing
algebra again.

And of course, there's always linearization in small amplitudes, just to
get a beginning idea of what happens in the most complex systems.

I've got something called the Yulpatov equation, and for well behaved
inputs, it generates well behaved outputs.  Although it is nonlinear,
it's not chaotic, so there's no reason not to search for closed form
solutions.  It's really just a question of finding the right algebraic
reductions and changes of variables.

I haven't found them yet, and I may never do so, but as the years
advance, I'll keep slogging away at it.

> But modern computer algebra systems
> makes these tasks much easier.

This is the method I prefer.  I just learned about Wolfram's on-line
integrator, and it blew my socks off.  It took the hardest integral I'd
ever seen and spit out the answer post haste, with only a little bit of
unreduced algebra.  It is quite unlike the godawful messes I saw Macsyma
produce, ca. '80.
Seperatist9@aol.com - 21 Mar 2006 05:17 GMT
> >> No argument here.  The only reason it's been left out of current
> >> theories is because it's hard enough doing the cosmology without
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> unreduced algebra.  It is quite unlike the godawful messes I saw Macsyma
> produce, ca. '80.

Soja's crew, flonker.

Do your peers know what you do to little children?

They will.
 
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