Natural Science Forum / Earth Science / Meteorology / July 2009

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I a much closer to that goal than most people.
I don't own a car, I don't pay utilities.
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No, whats pure stupid idyllic ideology is denialism.
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No, I know more than Al Gore by orders of magnitude on the subject,
more than enough
to appreciate what a mess he made with his presentation.
-

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lol. I don't hate an industry, i know it to be a wrong and primitive
pig headed means by which to derive energy.
Thats not emotional, its knowledge there is a difference.

Further more, My capacities for lucid visualization are far above the
abilities of mere muggles to even imagine.
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You should listen because i am telling the truth, not whining, while
you are spinning bs and running in circles.
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Says an ignorant scam artist or a dupe. Which are you?
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No, there is no philosophy, there is only understanding. Even the
people who are evil
and trying to cling to fossil fuels would in fact be better off with
green energy, so i am in service
to them whether they understand that or not.
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and without proper burden of proof,
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The burden of proof is on the crackpot denialists.
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and definition of each and

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oh please, don;t make me giggle.
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i love this projection/ accidental confession bs. These things are
true of the deniers, and not true of me at all.
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Just keep

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The people going to hell are the deniers.
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and when has the free market ever kept anything honest?
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That is why we now have fuel which we need

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whereas electric cars and geothermal power could have you buzzing
around for thousands of miles to the penny.
your duped by exxon and fighting for them to keep making you into
their cash cow.
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Nationalization only means a

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who said anything about nationalization?
you did.
And thats funny, because its another projection and thus accidental
confession.
We have in fact nationalized the auto industry and gas and oil and
coal, with the result being
government own monopolies and fixed prices.
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you call this modern? the use of fossil fuels is what traps humanity
in the technological dark ages.
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If

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if they had not been allowed to force out other options, natural
market forces would have driven
such fuel use into obscure history by now.
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You forget the possibility of electric cars or exclude it
intentionally.
also, theres bikes.
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No, it doesn't.
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The only crime that could

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no, in fact we don't need the fuel to survive, we could do fine with
other forms of energy.
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even oxygen can become a pollutant in too high a quantity, your words
demonstrate you don't understand the basics
of toxicology. On 100 percent oxygen, you will almost certainly die
unless you are allready having trouble breathing,
or unless you are smart enough to take only short shallow breathes.
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no, its not theoretical at all, its well understood and well proven.
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There are thousands of experiments which have been done and if you
were interested we could tell you how to set one
up for yourself for under a few thousand bucks using fish tanks.
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For this reason the idea of

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simply another lie dependent upon reader ignorance.
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again, another lie.
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simply untrue and total nonsense.
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again, lies, bs, ignorant stupid pathetic nonsense.
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1. There are many different ways to derive energy.
2. Each of these methods has different relationships with the
environment
3. Each of  these methods has different costs and different benefits
4. Each of the these methods has different pros and cons.
5. A partial list of methods; oil, coal, shale, wood, gas, Biofuels
(a. food crop, b. hemp crop c. algae) Solar, Thermal Solar, Wind,
Tidal, Geothermal, Hydrogen, Hydrolic, Zero Point, Nuclear.

6. Oils relationships with the environment are
a. oil is ancient organic material that has undergone geological
processes.
b. oil is removed  from the ground via oil wells. Ie oil is mined from
the Earth.
c. oil is burned in order to get heat and chemical reaction to create
the energy.
d. burning it creates smoke. the smoke is toxic. it is multiply toxic
to the ecosystem in multiple ways.
e. its causing global warming
f. it causes cancer
g. it causes acid rain
h. thus it hurts humans personally and the whole ecosystem as whole in
these different ways.
7. oil costs a certain amount of money to obtain from the earth,
depending on how deep it is and at what pressure it is under.
8. oil costs a certain amount of money to refine and process, as well
as to transport.
9. The pros of oil are that ;
a. it is accessible with very primitive levels of technology
b. our current energy infrastructure is based on oil
c. oil costs less than biofuels or, at least, it used to.
d. oils over all cost benefit analysis remains do-able from the
perspective of economics alone.
10. The cons against oil are
a. oil is actually very expensive as technology compared to other
forms of energy in which initial
costs render yields not limited by physical quantities. Solar power
stations, Wind, and Geothermal all provide energy options which
are simply cheaper over the long term.
b. oil pollutes the ecology as mentioned in its environmental analysis
above.
c. that pollution will cause the extinction of life on earth as we
know it should it continue.
d. we have already reached a tipping point where we have raised the
global temperature so high that the new larger contributor to
greenhouse gasses is the ice that is being melted.
e. thus we need solutions to reverse global warming, or, our
civilization is doomed.
11. Coal. The specifics change, but Coal, like oil, is an ancient
organic substance exposed to geological processes, mut be burned, and
thus
contributes to pollution and global warming.
12. oil Shale and coal Shale. Similar to oil and coal or extensions of
them, shale is harder to mine and harder to extract oil from.
thus it costs more to process.
13. Biofuels. The difference between biofuels and oil or coal is that
biofuels have not been exposed to geological processes, but rather,
similarly effecting technological processes.
a.Biofuels still have toxic smoke which pollutes and which contributes
to global warming
b. Biofuels trade energy shortage and economic stress for food
shortage and economic stress, thus creating c +d
c. Biofuels create food shortages, hunger, and contribute to global
poverty
d. Biofuels make food more expensive.
14. Solar Power
a. solar power is derived from the suns light and chemical processes.
b. Solar panels are a permanent fixture which will continue to derive
energy whenever the sun shines.
c. Solar panels have real but comparatively very tiny environmental
costs.
d. Solar panel technology is up to date and evolved, no more research
is actually required.
e. assorted pundits and candidates and politicians and so forth like
to tell us that they favor more research for solar power.
Thats a secret unsecret way of saying that they don't support
employing it as a real world solution, because solar power has worked
and has been feasible and economically viable for over 20 years.
f. Solar power is derived at a specific rate depending on the size of
the panel, the efficiency of the absorption of the sunlight, and the
amount of
sunlight available.
g. Solar power does better at high altitudes because theres less
atmospheric interference.
h. Solar Power has very low yields per physical system cost. In order
to run a car on Solar energy, you have to panel the entire car,
and in order to run your house on solar energy, you would have to
panel your entire rooftop and buy energy saving appliances.
i. Solar power is most attractive and useful in a whole energy
strategy because it is uniquely mobile. Geothermal wells or  Wind
power or tidal power (for obvious reasons) won't run a car directly.
j. Solar power could in theory be used to solve the energy crisis
almost by itself, by paneling over a very large surface area. This
surface area
has been calculated variously, with low estimates ranging in 10 by 10
miles, and high estimates ranging upto 200 by 200 miles.
h. The problem with this is that the cost/ benefit analysis shows us
that this would be very expensive when compared to a holistic energy
strategy.
i. Solar power has very low yields when compared to geothermal power.
15. Thermal Solar. Thermal Solar is a variation of Solar power with a
much cheaper cost, a much lower per square foot yield, and operating
at a much simpler technology level.
a. about 100 miles by 100 miles (median estimate) of Thermal solar
paneling could in theory meet our energy needs.
b. Thermal Solar can be done in such a way that it has lower materials
costs and lower materials environmental impact.
c. Thermal solar involves using light to heat a liquid which creates
energy by pushing a turbine when the fluid expands.
16. Wind Energy.
a. Wind energy is derived from creating large turbines called wind
mills.
b. Wind mills are generally very large affairs.
c. The larger a windmill is, the more energy it creates relative to
its overall material cost.
d. This means that the cost/ benefit analysis shows that larger
windmills are cheaper.
e. Windmills create medium yields of energy when they are operating.
f. One good large windmill can probably meet the energy needs for
perhaps a dozen homes.
g. The USA could in theory meet all of its energy needs via wind
power, if we invested heavily also in enormous
distribution network infrastructure.
h. The USA is rich in wind energy compared to most places on the
earth.
i. the problem with windmills is downtime when theres no wind.
j. This is significantly less a problem than with solar downtime due
to no sun.
k. Wind and Solar together as a team can capitalize on the two
extremes of climate, and should thus be employed
alternately depending on the location one wishes to provide energy
for.
l. for instance, Solar power is better in New Mexico, Arizona,
California, Texas, And sunny places.
J. And yet Wind power is better in places like New Jersey,
Oregon,...places alongside the Canada Border.
k. The other problem with wind power is that it can create quite an
eye sore to look at.
l. Wind power also can be very devastating to local bird populations.
m. Wind and Solar might be good tandem partners for cities like
Denver, where theres lots of wind and lots of sun,
but not usually at the same time except for when it is.
This allows such a system to generate power in the sunny months with
solar and in the winter months with wind.
17. Tidal Power
a. Tidal power is derived much like wind power is, from the movement
of water instead of air.
b. Tidal power is slightly higher in potential yields because water is
denser.
c. Tidal power would have to be done more or less on remote beaches ,
probably in large fenced
areas to protect the systems from animals and animals and humans from
the systems.
d. Tidal power is obviously only viable on the coastlines of oceans or
very large bodies of water such as lakes.
e. Tidal power could in theory meet all of our energy needs.
f. the cost/ benefit analysis for tidal power is a bit murky because
its a mostly unexplored technology.
g. however, proof of concept units do exist and the technology is very
simple.
h. tidal power has problems due to the corrosive nature of salt water
and erosion.
i. Tidal power is unpopular because it ruins one beach per facility.
j. Most accessible tidal power exists in the energy of waves.
k. Cost/ benefit analysis shows that tidal power can be done out at
sea, but it becomes increasingly more expensive the further out
you go to get the power back to land.
l. Tidal power is probably a good solution for arctic regions which
don't get much sun, and whose wind conditions might on some occasions
be too intense,
pulling windmills down.
m. Along with Solar power and Wind power, tidal power provides a third
leg of medium level yield energy for low materials cost in situations
where
geothermal power would be too expensive.
18. Geothermal Power
a. Geothermal power is energy derived from the heat of the earth.
b. that heat is on average several miles beneath the surface.
c. However, there is a lot of variance in how deep that heat is, and
every state has regions where that heat is within a few hundred meters
of the surface.
d. Geothermal power like wind power becomes cheaper per materials cost
the larger the plant is.
e. Geothermal power has very high potential yields, and is in fact
competitive with nuclear power in terms of sheer yield.
f. Geothermal power plants could in theory be built with higher energy
yields than nuclear power plants. However, this is not advised or
advisable, due to
potential tectonic stresses such high energy plants could create.
g. in the range around 100th or even 1 tenth the yield energy of a
nuclear power station, geothermal power stations could be built which
would have
virtually no impact on tectonic stresses.
h. Tectonic stress is an important variable. Frequently geothermal
power is most accessible along fault lines. However, these should be
ignored for
caldera like situations where the system is not contributing or in
danger due to tectonic stresses.
i. There are many different ways of configuring a geothermal power
station, and only one which this author supports. This is called
double circuit closed system geothermal power.
j. double circuit simply means that the water drops on one circuit and
the steam comes up on the other.
k. closed circuit means that no water is ever lost in the system,
because even the heating element chamber is a well engineered
container
L. Geothermal power can in theory meet all of our energy needs
M. of the resources available to us, it does this with the cheapest
over all cost, the smallest possible ecological footprint, and the
highest level of
permanency.
N. Geothermal power is not a good solution in situations where a small
amount of power is needed for small communities or remote estates. It
has a high material cost and start up cost to drill the well.
O. Geothermal power is theoretically available almost everywhere on
the surface of the earth.
P. current oil wells now go as deep as 7, 8, 9 miles deep.
Q. Enough Geothermal power is accessible within 200 meters depth to
meet all of our energy needs.
R. where larger power sources are wanted in places where that heat is
deeper, it is still true that geothermal heat in most places is not
deeper than 4 miles.
S. In some rare situations where the crust is thick, geothermal power
might be as deep as 20 miles.
Don't drill there, import the energy from 150 miles away somewhere.
19. Hydrogen power;
a. Hydrogen power is an up and coming technology which we can expect
to see having good strong applications 20 or 30 years from now.
b. Hydrogen power is very promising, but currently, its still mostly a
way to store energy, not create it.
c. The two main exceptions to this are using corrosive rare earth
metals to get reactions, and using phased electrical energy to short
out the binding force.
d. The problem with the former is that the rare earth metal is itself
a form of fuel, and that creating it, and "burning" it with water both
create toxic
substances as side effects.
e. the problem with the latter is containment of the field and what
happens when organic matter is exposed to high energy bursts of
electricity.
f. To the knowledge of this author, water based solutions which
continue to use a combustion engine are frauds.
g. When Hydrogen becomes a used technology, it will probably be for
very large equipment and uses, such as trains, planes, and large boats
20.  Hydrolic or Hydro Electric power.
a. This energy is created by damming a river and using falling water
to drive a turbine.
b. this is incredibly damaging to the ecology.
c. Yields are fairly high per materials cost, but, still, hydro
electric materials costs are comparable to geothermal power, which
doesn't destroy an entire
ecosystem per power plant.
d. Hydro electric power does not exist in anywhere near sufficient
quantities to meet all of our energy needs.
e. This author finds hydro-electric power to be a bad idea all the way
around, not even as useful as nuclear power.
21. Nuclear power
a. Nuclear power (currently) is derived from using rare earth metals
in reactions which turn some fraction of those fuels directly into
energy.
b. The radioactive fuels must be mined, and this results currently in
the deaths (and serious health problems) of many Miners.
c. Nuclear power currently creates hyper toxic and radio active
wastes, which cost money to tend and babysit, and which in an accident
of ignorance 10 thousand years from now could wipe out an entire
continents worth of our descendants.
d. Nuclear power is in many senses still a futuristic technology with
much promise and much potential.
e. Thus nuclear power should be studied and refined in the laboratory.
f. The focus of such studies should be in finding ways to use non
radioactive fuels,
finding ways to create dissipating forms of radiation only, and
finding ways to eliminate the problem of wastes.
g. Nuclear power is very high yield, but it has exorbitant costs,
especially over  the long term.
h. Compared to Geothermal power, nuclear power is extremely expensive,
gets more expensive instead of less expensive over time, is extremely
dangerous, and perhaps most importantly, sooner or later we will run
out of nuclear fuels, and still be forced to move on to geothermal
power.
i. Nuclear power will be most useful for purposes of exploring our
solar system and our galaxy.
j. There is no good reason to use nuclear power for domestic use
considering the other much better alternatives.
22. Zero point energy
a. Zero point energy is derived from quantum phase state fluctuations
where energy is created in contradiction to the "laws" of conservation
of mass and
energy.
b. Zero point energy is a futuristic technology which may become
realistic within the next 100 years.
c. Final stage proof of concept zero point energy research should be
conducted at least as distant from the earth as the oort cloud, due to
the unforseeable
nature of potential dangers.
d. In theory, zero point energy could create a self sustaining quantum
phase reaction which could create nearly unlimited energy in spaces
literally too small to be seen by the naked eye.
e. Early stage research into zero point energy is the entire field of
quantum mechanics, specifically Singularities, branes, and quantum
holographics.

23. Summary of findings.
a. Geothermal, Solar, Wind, Tidal, and Hydrogen Technologies together
provide a clear and easy path towards green and sustainable energy.
b. Geothermal energy specifically is the solution which a realistic
green energy infrastructure should be rooted in.
c. It is reasonable to project a total holistic solution in which 80
percent of our energy comes from geothermal, 10 percent from Solar, 5
percent from
Wind, and 5 percent from Tidal.
d. It is also worth mentioning that electric cars are a current and
viable technology.
e. This is all of it simply a sumary of known and provable science
fact. The only reason why most people don't know all of this is that
oil companies
and rich evil jerks have spent billions of dollars to flood the public
with propaganda and misinformation.
f. The other strategy of the evil empire jerks is to promote energy
resources such as biofuels or nuclear power which create a situation
of extreme expense so that they can continue to exploit our need for
energy in order to make money. A Geothermally based energy
infrastructure would provide
extremely cheap energy (especially over the long term) and this would
be the death of the energy industry.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

:ymalien:

No, ... really... its true. If only you knew how true. briefly, lets
put it in context.
I'm an aspie. I have 3 out of eight types of IQ in the 180 range and 3
out of eight in the
low nineties. The cognitive differences between me and AVERAGE"(?) are
thus skewed away
from average both directions; extreme high intelligence and a lot of
graceless stupidity.

So there I am; alienated and alienating;
studying your civilization just so that i can adjust to its strange
social customs;
And thus existing in a very awkward matrix of perceptions about that
civilization
most of its participants can't have.

To think of it in more literal terms, its like the common persons view
versus the birds eye
view of civilization to be in my head. Imagine, then, what this is
doing to me, as TORI AMOS
once asked" Don't you know what this is doing to ME? Here? In my
HEAD?"
Quote:

I was alive and I waited waited
I was alive and I waited for this
Right here, right now, there is no other place I want to be
Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history

I saw the decade in, when it seemed
the world could change at the blink of an eye
And if anything
then there's your sign of the times

I was alive and I waited waited
I was alive and I waited for this
Right here, right now

I was alive and I waited waited
I was alive and I waited for this
Right here, right now, there is no other place I want to be
Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history

Right here, right now, there is no other place I want to be
Right here, right now, watching the world wake up from history

Right here, right now, there is no other place I want to be
Right here, right now, watching the world wake up

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/jesus-jon ... yrics.html
_________________

prometheuspan

Edit | Quote
#2
Wed 03 Dec, 2008 15:50
Post subject: Re: THREE POSSIBILITIES??? Post There are three main
timeline paths diverging in yonder woods, and i say, lets take the
path less travelled
in a sharp less turn and fix this path that we are on.

The first possibility is that we will invest in nuclear and biofuels
and miss our chance to convert the economy in time to prevent the
meltdown that would happen due to the increased strain on the
biosystem to grow fuel and global warming. So in possibility one, Joe
president is hanging out in NEW DENVER. Its the turn of the next
century, thats right, 2100. And Joe is sitting there in the
superbasements above and below and next to NORAD, and the news is
grim. Because the planet is covered in super cell storms, and the
atmosphere and the ocean have hit their tipping points where the
balancing system kicks in; Earth is auto healing her atmosphere by
flushing it with more water;
the increased heat is simply evaporating more water. All the land life
has died on the surface from radiation and heat, or 700 mile per hour
winds. And they are thinking and talking mostly regretfully about
how they mismanaged the earth. But the good news is that theres a lot
of biological activity still left in the oceans. Sure they are acidic,
and almost all fish life died, but there are lots of bottom dwelling
creatures and flora which won't even notice. The big happy news in
fact is that our colonies on the sea floor are going well, almost
finished in their construction.

And then the bad news hits. The systemic destruction of the top layers
of the ecosystem have triggered an evolutionary biopanic in the
primitive strains which survived. Evolution which has stayed at a very
slow rate or pace has now been accelerated geometrically foreward as
the very primitive strains are adapting to the new conditions we
created as a test of their adaptive ability. We are forcing
an evolutionary event, in which we just created hyperplagues; billions
of them.

The good news is surface life is showing back up, in tiny little
clumps hidden under rocks and in caves;
as new clustering biogroups of simple life which has only just now
evolved are popping up everywhere.

The spins on that get progressively worse and worse and worse as time
goes on, until in 2105 or so at the very end of the large novel i can
write in my head, joe president learns that a species of newly evolved
ants has found NEW DENVER and breached its security barriers. En
masse.

While hes in an interior zone which is remote from the larger easier
to access tunnels, the ants are
incoming from every direction, and they are the size of infant kittens
and enormously toxic with their bites.
They use acids to dissolve even metals, and they are coming,
inevitably, like the new ecologies
grim reaper, it descends into new denver with a fatal inevitability,
and with sounds of gunfire and screams heard in the distance, that
possibility ends.

#2
Wed 03 Dec, 2008 16:02
Post subject: Re: THREE POSSIBILITIES??? Post The second possibility
is a much more grand scheme in which joe is sitting as president at
cruithne station. Realizing in the 2020s that the moon and mars would
be silly and impossible to colonize, we finally got ourselves up to
cruithne, and hollowed her out and spun her. The main population
center
is now cruithne, with thousands of smaller craft distributed out to
colonize over time the rest of the solar system. The story centers on
the discovery of warp drive and our subsequent quest for a new planet
to
replace the one we just wore out, as well as the strengths and
weaknesses of being a species with nothing to cling to and everything
to gain from any found found conflict with a species that just happens
to have a nice planet we admire.

In this story there are only 42 species in the whole galaxy; that
being the entire reason for the answer douglas adams computer so
eloquently provided. 42 total sentient and space faring (in the warp
drive sense.) However, we have just entered that arena and some of
those species have been planet shopping for millenia, so the 300,000
planets which are earth sized and in an earth like orbit have all been
taken in the galaxy and all the ones with life on them of any kind
have alien colonies already there.

The only way to gain turf is to take it. While we are not by any means
the most powerful species in the galaxy, half of the galaxy is running
on technology we can duplicate or better.
Guess who the "BORG" are?

Guess who the "Grox"? are?

They are only that side of shadow projected into an amusement;
a symbol of something we all know we may become.

The unfortunate unseen end to this tragic novel is that while there
was easy prey to start with, 3 different civilizations in the galaxy
have technology so advanced above ours that they end us as a minor
annoyance one day when they notice, in horror, what we have done.

Its a long and banal novel in my mind, a war story all about conquest
that only takes a very surprising twist in the last five minutes of
reading.
_________________
Image

Image
The opposite of bravery is not cowardice but conformity.
Image
Image
Where is it written that all of our dreams must be small ones? -B5-
"Theres a place out beyond right and wrong; I'll meet you there" RUMI
**== (%) =:) :angelic-blueglow: :angelic-cyan: :angelic-
flying: :angelic-green: :angelic-yellow: :happy-sunny: :happy-
sunshine: :violence-swords: :violence-bowandarrow:

The greatest achievement is selflessness. The greatest worth is self-
mastery. The greatest quality is seeking to serve others. The greatest
precept is continual awareness. The greatest medicine is the emptiness
of everything. The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds
ways. The greatest magic is transmuting the passions. The greatest
generosity is non-attachment. The greatest goodness is a peaceful
mind. The greatest patience is humility. The greatest effort is not
concerned with results. The greatest meditation is a mind that lets
go. The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances. - Atisha

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#2
Wed 03 Dec, 2008 16:24
Post subject: Re: THREE POSSIBILITIES??? Post The third possibility,
and the point of this board is that we are here for the purpose of
creating that third possibility, is joe president on cruithne station
is now inaugurating the Zenterprise. Its 10 thousand meters long,
carries a fleet of 1000 100 meter long and wide fighter/lander/cargo/
atmospheric craft,
And looks suspiciously like the enterprise D except that theres 4
nacelles instead of only two, and theres
a large aftward hull which houses the bays.

This is inauguration day for a dream brought to life; a science
fiction story made no longer science fiction,
not by one single planet earth; but by the will and collective
knowledge of all the 42 sentient species of the galaxy. She is a
million times faster than any known previous ship, and a thousand
times better armed, and she is staffed not by a crew of 300 humans and
50 aliens, but by a crew of 42 different slots,
each in exact proportion, for a crew total of say 8400, or 20
individuals per species. (did i miss a zero somewhere? It barely
matters one way or the other.)

We discovered warp in 2035, or, to put it a different way, we
engineered it first successfully. The limits
of it are its node to node gravity well hopping, just like with spode.
Unlike spode it gets about 100 light years of range to hop inside of
the galaxy, or fine range to hop towards whole galaxies. The main
consideration is gravitic interference, its hard to fly through
complicated gravity fields.

The problem with hopping towards a galaxy is its still some ratioized
stretched proportion for the time
distortion, and the journey towards the nearby galaxies takes months
and farther quickly years.
Whereas hopping star to star is virtually instantaneous.

The difference in limitation between our first ships, then the
Borgmobiles, and then this Zenterprise?

The Borg Mobiles will make it to ten times the speed and ten times the
range, about 1000 light year hops in galaxy .

The Zenterprise will give us whole galaxy wide leaps to any star in
the whole galaxy, and fly 100 times faster than the Borg Mobiles
between galaxies.

This opens up the near cluster of galaxies about the same as
multiplying it by a whole galaxy;
IE at least thousands of realistic destination galaxies and millions
of galaxies accessible to long range trips.

so this Zenterprise reality will actually be far more powerful than
Picards Enterprise and an order of magnitude larger. Rather than
phasers, she will be armed with grasers, gravity beams. There won't be
any transporter beam tho.... Lol.

This novel in my head begins with the inauguration day, with the
president of the united states and the president of the united
federation of planets transfering authority of the ship over to its
human Admiral and commander. (since it runs a small fleet of ships,
the Zenterprise is commanded by an admiral who commands 1000
captains.)
_________________

Edit | Quote
#2
Wed 03 Dec, 2008 16:27
Post subject: Re: THREE POSSIBILITIES??? Post The unrealistic part of
this simulation is warp speed. Into our own galaxy, it might well be
that we would be looking to find earth 2 at merely .4 the speed of
light, and that the Zenterprise would be capable merely of .9 of the
speed of light. Which means the story would play out over a very slow
period of time as a novel, but other than that not much changes.

_________________

#2
Wed 03 Dec, 2008 16:30
Post subject: Re: THREE POSSIBILITIES??? Post The difference between
wether or not we get one or the other of the first two novels to live
out as a species or wether we get the last option depends on wether or
not this makes it to obamas Desk.

Quote:
1. There are many different ways to derive energy.
2. Each of these methods has different relationships with the
environment
3. Each of these methods has different costs and different benefits
4. Each of the these methods has different pros and cons.
5. A partial list of methods; oil, coal, shale, wood, gas, Biofuels
(a. food crop, b. hemp crop c. algae) Solar, Thermal Solar, Wind,
Tidal, Geothermal, Hydrogen, Hydrolic, Zero Point, Nuclear.

6. Oils relationships with the environment are
a. oil is ancient organic material that has undergone geological
processes.
b. oil is removed from the ground via oil wells. Ie oil is mined from
the Earth.
c. oil is burned in order to get heat and chemical reaction to create
the energy.
d. burning it creates smoke. the smoke is toxic. it is multiply toxic
to the ecosystem in multiple ways.
e. its causing global warming
f. it causes cancer
g. it causes acid rain
h. thus it hurts humans personally and the whole ecosystem as whole in
these different ways.
7. oil costs a certain amount of money to obtain from the earth,
depending on how deep it is and at what pressure it is under.
8. oil costs a certain amount of money to refine and process, as well
as to transport.
9. The pros of oil are that ;
a. it is accessible with very primitive levels of technology
b. our current energy infrastructure is based on oil
c. oil costs less than biofuels or, at least, it used to.
d. oils over all cost benefit analysis remains do-able from the
perspective of economics alone.
10. The cons against oil are
a. oil is actually very expensive as technology compared to other
forms of energy in which initial
costs render yields not limited by physical quantities. Solar power
stations, Wind, and Geothermal all provide energy options which
are simply cheaper over the long term.
b. oil pollutes the ecology as mentioned in its environmental analysis
above.
c. that pollution will cause the extinction of life on earth as we
know it should it continue.
d. we have already reached a tipping point where we have raised the
global temperature so high that the new larger contributor to
greenhouse gasses is the ice that is being melted.
e. thus we need solutions to reverse global warming, or, our
civilization is doomed.
11. Coal. The specifics change, but Coal, like oil, is an ancient
organic substance exposed to geological processes, mut be burned, and
thus
contributes to pollution and global warming.
12. oil Shale and coal Shale. Similar to oil and coal or extensions of
them, shale is harder to mine and harder to extract oil from.
thus it costs more to process.
13. Biofuels. The difference between biofuels and oil or coal is that
biofuels have not been exposed to geological processes, but rather,
similarly effecting technological processes.
a.Biofuels still have toxic smoke which pollutes and which contributes
to global warming
b. Biofuels trade energy shortage and economic stress for food
shortage and economic stress, thus creating c +d
c. Biofuels create food shortages, hunger, and contribute to global
poverty
d. Biofuels make food more expensive.
14. Solar Power
a. solar power is derived from the suns light and chemical processes.
b. Solar panels are a permanent fixture which will continue to derive
energy whenever the sun shines.
c. Solar panels have real but comparatively very tiny environmental
costs.
d. Solar panel technology is up to date and evolved, no more research
is actually required.
e. assorted pundits and candidates and politicians and so forth like
to tell us that they favor more research for solar power.
Thats a secret unsecret way of saying that they don't support
employing it as a real world solution, because solar power has worked
and has been feasible and economically viable for over 20 years.
f. Solar power is derived at a specific rate depending on the size of
the panel, the efficiency of the absorption of the sunlight, and the
amount of
sunlight available.
g. Solar power does better at high altitudes because theres less
atmospheric interference.
h. Solar Power has very low yields per physical system cost. In order
to run a car on Solar energy, you have to panel the entire car,
and in order to run your house on solar energy, you would have to
panel your entire rooftop and buy energy saving appliances.
i. Solar power is most attractive and useful in a whole energy
strategy because it is uniquely mobile. Geothermal wells or Wind
power or tidal power (for obvious reasons) won't run a car directly.
j. Solar power could in theory be used to solve the energy crisis
almost by itself, by paneling over a very large surface area. This
surface area
has been calculated variously, with low estimates ranging in 10 by 10
miles, and high estimates ranging upto 200 by 200 miles.
h. The problem with this is that the cost/ benefit analysis shows us
that this would be very expensive when compared to a holistic energy
strategy.
i. Solar power has very low yields when compared to geothermal power.
15. Thermal Solar. Thermal Solar is a variation of Solar power with a
much cheaper cost, a much lower per square foot yield, and operating
at a much simpler technology level.
a. about 100 miles by 100 miles (median estimate) of Thermal solar
paneling could in theory meet our energy needs.
b. Thermal Solar can be done in such a way that it has lower materials
costs and lower materials environmental impact.
c. Thermal solar involves using light to heat a liquid which creates
energy by pushing a turbine when the fluid expands.
16. Wind Energy.
a. Wind energy is derived from creating large turbines called wind
mills.
b. Wind mills are generally very large affairs.
c. The larger a windmill is, the more energy it creates relative to
its overall material cost.
d. This means that the cost/ benefit analysis shows that larger
windmills are cheaper.
e. Windmills create medium yields of energy when they are operating.
f. One good large windmill can probably meet the energy needs for
perhaps a dozen homes.
g. The USA could in theory meet all of its energy needs via wind
power, if we invested heavily also in enormous
distribution network infrastructure.
h. The USA is rich in wind energy compared to most places on the
earth.
i. the problem with windmills is downtime when theres no wind.
j. This is significantly less a problem than with solar downtime due
to no sun.
k. Wind and Solar together as a team can capitalize on the two
extremes of climate, and should thus be employed
alternately depending on the location one wishes to provide energy
for.
l. for instance, Solar power is better in New Mexico, Arizona,
California, Texas, And sunny places.
J. And yet Wind power is better in places like New Jersey,
Oregon,...places alongside the Canada Border.
k. The other problem with wind power is that it can create quite an
eye sore to look at.
l. Wind power also can be very devastating to local bird populations.
m. Wind and Solar might be good tandem partners for cities like
Denver, where theres lots of wind and lots of sun,
but not usually at the same time except for when it is.
This allows such a system to generate power in the sunny months with
solar and in the winter months with wind.
17. Tidal Power
a. Tidal power is derived much like wind power is, from the movement
of water instead of air.
b. Tidal power is slightly higher in potential yields because water is
denser.
c. Tidal power would have to be done more or less on remote beaches ,
probably in large fenced
areas to protect the systems from animals and animals and humans from
the systems.
d. Tidal power is obviously only viable on the coastlines of oceans or
very large bodies of water such as lakes.
e. Tidal power could in theory meet all of our energy needs.
f. the cost/ benefit analysis for tidal power is a bit murky because
its a mostly unexplored technology.
g. however, proof of concept units do exist and the technology is very
simple.
h. tidal power has problems due to the corrosive nature of salt water
and erosion.
i. Tidal power is unpopular because it ruins one beach per facility.
j. Most accessible tidal power exists in the energy of waves.
k. Cost/ benefit analysis shows that tidal power can be done out at
sea, but it becomes increasingly more expensive the further out
you go to get the power back to land.
l. Tidal power is probably a good solution for arctic regions which
don't get much sun, and whose wind conditions might on some occasions
be too intense,
pulling windmills down.
m. Along with Solar power and Wind power, tidal power provides a third
leg of medium level yield energy for low materials cost in situations
where
geothermal power would be too expensive.
18. Geothermal Power
a. Geothermal power is energy derived from the heat of the earth.
b. that heat is on average several miles beneath the surface.
c. However, there is a lot of variance in how deep that heat is, and
every state has regions where that heat is within a few hundred meters
of the surface.
d. Geothermal power like wind power becomes cheaper per materials cost
the larger the plant is.
e. Geothermal power has very high potential yields, and is in fact
competitive with nuclear power in terms of sheer yield.
f. Geothermal power plants could in theory be built with higher energy
yields than nuclear power plants. However, this is not advised or
advisable, due to
potential tectonic stresses such high energy plants could create.
g. in the range around 100th or even 1 tenth the yield energy of a
nuclear power station, geothermal power stations could be built which
would have
virtually no impact on tectonic stresses.
h. Tectonic stress is an important variable. Frequently geothermal
power is most accessible along fault lines. However, these should be
ignored for
caldera like situations where the system is not contributing or in
danger due to tectonic stresses.
i. There are many different ways of configuring a geothermal power
station, and only one which this author supports. This is called
double circuit closed system geothermal power.
j. double circuit simply means that the water drops on one circuit and
the steam comes up on the other.
k. closed circuit means that no water is ever lost in the system,
because even the heating element chamber is a well engineered
container
L. Geothermal power can in theory meet all of our energy needs
M. of the resources available to us, it does this with the cheapest
over all cost, the smallest possible ecological footprint, and the
highest level of
permanency.
N. Geothermal power is not a good solution in situations where a small
amount of power is needed for small communities or remote estates. It
has a high material cost and start up cost to drill the well.
O. Geothermal power is theoretically available almost everywhere on
the surface of the earth.
P. current oil wells now go as deep as 7, 8, 9 miles deep.
Q. Enough Geothermal power is accessible within 200 meters depth to
meet all of our energy needs.
R. where larger power sources are wanted in places where that heat is
deeper, it is still true that geothermal heat in most places is not
deeper than 4 miles.
S. In some rare situations where the crust is thick, geothermal power
might be as deep as 20 miles.
Don't drill there, import the energy from 150 miles away somewhere.
19. Hydrogen power;
a. Hydrogen power is an up and coming technology which we can expect
to see having good strong applications 20 or 30 years from now.
b. Hydrogen power is very promising, but currently, its still mostly a
way to store energy, not create it.
c. The two main exceptions to this are using corrosive rare earth
metals to get reactions, and using phased electrical energy to short
out the binding force.
d. The problem with the former is that the rare earth metal is itself
a form of fuel, and that creating it, and "burning" it with water both
create toxic
substances as side effects.
e. the problem with the latter is containment of the field and what
happens when organic matter is exposed to high energy bursts of
electricity.
f. To the knowledge of this author, water based solutions which
continue to use a combustion engine are frauds.
g. When Hydrogen becomes a used technology, it will probably be for
very large equipment and uses, such as trains, planes, and large boats
20. Hydrolic or Hydro Electric power.
a. This energy is created by damming a river and using falling water
to drive a turbine.
b. this is incredibly damaging to the ecology.
c. Yields are fairly high per materials cost, but, still, hydro
electric materials costs are comparable to geothermal power, which
doesn't destroy an entire
ecosystem per power plant.
d. Hydro electric power does not exist in anywhere near sufficient
quantities to meet all of our energy needs.
e. This author finds hydro-electric power to be a bad idea all the way
around, not even as useful as nuclear power.
21. Nuclear power
a. Nuclear power (currently) is derived from using rare earth metals
in reactions which turn some fraction of those fuels directly into
energy.
b. The radioactive fuels must be mined, and this results currently in
the deaths (and serious health problems) of many Miners.
c. Nuclear power currently creates hyper toxic and radio active
wastes, which cost money to tend and babysit, and which in an accident
of ignorance 10 thousand years from now could wipe out an entire
continents worth of our descendants.
d. Nuclear power is in many senses still a futuristic technology with
much promise and much potential.
e. Thus nuclear power should be studied and refined in the laboratory.
f. The focus of such studies should be in finding ways to use non
radioactive fuels,
finding ways to create dissipating forms of radiation only, and
finding ways to eliminate the problem of wastes.
g. Nuclear power is very high yield, but it has exorbitant costs,
especially over the long term.
h. Compared to Geothermal power, nuclear power is extremely expensive,
gets more expensive instead of less expensive over time, is extremely
dangerous, and perhaps most importantly, sooner or later we will run
out of nuclear fuels, and still be forced to move on to geothermal
power.
i. Nuclear power will be most useful for purposes of exploring our
solar system and our galaxy.
j. There is no good reason to use nuclear power for domestic use
considering the other much better alternatives.
22. Zero point energy
a. Zero point energy is derived from quantum phase state fluctuations
where energy is created in contradiction to the "laws" of conservation
of mass and
energy.
b. Zero point energy is a futuristic technology which may become
realistic within the next 100 years.
c. Final stage proof of concept zero point energy research should be
conducted at least as distant from the earth as the oort cloud, due to
the unforseeable
nature of potential dangers.
d. In theory, zero point energy could create a self sustaining quantum
phase reaction which could create nearly unlimited energy in spaces
literally too small to be seen by the naked eye.
e. Early stage research into zero point energy is the entire field of
quantum mechanics, specifically Singularities, branes, and quantum
holographics.

23. Summary of findings.
a. Geothermal, Solar, Wind, Tidal, and Hydrogen Technologies together
provide a clear and easy path towards green and sustainable energy.
b. Geothermal energy specifically is the solution which a realistic
green energy infrastructure should be rooted in.
c. It is reasonable to project a total holistic solution in which 80
percent of our energy comes from geothermal, 10 percent from Solar, 5
percent from
Wind, and 5 percent from Tidal.
d. It is also worth mentioning that electric cars are a current and
viable technology.
e. This is all of it simply a sumary of known and provable science
fact. The only reason why most people don't know all of this is that
oil companies
and rich evil jerks have spent billions of dollars to flood the public
with propaganda and misinformation.
f. The other strategy of the evil empire jerks is to promote energy
resources such as biofuels or nuclear power which create a situation
of extreme expense so that they can continue to exploit our need for
energy in order to make money. A Geothermally based energy
infrastructure would provide
extremely cheap energy (especially over the long term) and this would
be the death of the energy industry.

_________________
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The opposite of bravery is not cowardice but conformity.
Image
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Where is it written that all of our dreams must be small ones? -B5-
"Theres a place out beyond right and wrong; I'll meet you there" RUMI
**== (%) =:) :angelic-blueglow: :angelic-cyan: :angelic-
flying: :angelic-green: :angelic-yellow: :happy-sunny: :happy-
sunshine: :violence-swords: :violence-bowandarrow:

The greatest achievement is selflessness. The greatest worth is self-
mastery. The greatest quality is seeking to serve others. The greatest
precept is continual awareness. The greatest medicine is the emptiness
of everything. The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds
ways. The greatest magic is transmuting the passions. The greatest
generosity is non-attachment. The greatest goodness is a peaceful
mind. The greatest patience is humility. The greatest effort is not
concerned with results. The greatest meditation is a mind that lets
go. The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances. - Atisha

The EPA says that the computers that they have now, do not have the
capacity to run the value of the effectiveness to cost that ANY
program to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide.

So far they have ran the calculation out to several hundred zero's
without getting any value at all. Their advisors say that if they keep
running the zero's, they may get a 1 somewhere in several thousands of
zero's.

They say they need this computer in a hurry before the upcoming
greenweenieology fest in Copenhagen. They must have SOME value and
cost benifit for their plan of controling economic function of the
free world, and their plan to intimidate and force India and China to
their knees in compliance with the advice of climatologists.

So EPA, how much is,,
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000^0,,,,,,,,,,,

This is also the value for your valid execution of the primary task of
your job discription.

Your statement of a particular detriment to the environment that will
happen ' if emissions are not cut', means nothing. You have NO PROGRAM
TO EFFECTIVELY ACHIEVE ANY EFFECT WITHOUT GENOCIDE OF 9/10 OF WORLD
POPULATION.

FACE THE FACTS AND REPORT THE FACTS, CIVIL SERVANTS

YOU'RE FIRED

HAHAHAHAHhahahahHAHAHAHAHhahahahHAHAHAHhahahahahahHAHAHAHAHA

KD

kdthrge@yahoo.com was disarmingly stupid enough to reply to:

---

Well, actually I was asking about your math skills..

But, if you'd like to "disuss compentency", I'll try not to laugh..

--Too hard..