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Natural Science Forum / Earth Science / Meteorology / July 2009



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The Great Govt CO2 Power Grab

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z0n0b - 03 Jul 2009 06:20 GMT
18 Apr 2009

The inevitable has happened.

The Obama government has declared CO2-a nutrient required by plants to live,
and a gas exhaled with your every breath-a pollutant. Let there be rejoicing
in the ranks of activists.

Now, when I say that what occurred was "inevitable" it means that there was
nothing anybody could have done to stop the government from doing what it
lusted to do.

No facts would have stopped them, no arguments, no evidence, no sober
quantifications of uncertainty. This was going to happen as soon as Obama
was elected.

Control is what was wanted and control is what was had.

The EPA, an agency of our ever-expanding government, has no direct electoral
oversight, by which I mean there is nothing you or I or any ordinary citizen
can do to influence any of its actions.

The president can influence it and occasionally rein in its excesses, as can
congress indirectly, but we folk are out of the loop.

I say this to make you feel a little better if you are upset at this,
unfortunately not unprecedented, move to add more governmental control of
our lives. There was nothing you could have done except possibly have voted
for McCain-and it's not clear that that would have helped either.

So this EPA ruling was as natural an occurrence as CO2 being released in the
breath of spotted owls in old growth forests.

Again, this was going to happen, it was unstoppable.

But, just for the fun of it, I will tell you why it was the wrong thing to
do.

Those That Care created this ruling because they are concerned that
human-caused changes in climate will be deleterious. There are two
components to this belief.

The first is that humans influence the climate. I have said many times that
this is trivially true. It is only a question of how much we do so.

So how much of the change in climate is due to us and how much is natural?
Nobody knows. No body, not even an international body of climate scientists.
There are some guesses, mainly in the form of forecasts that say
temperatures will rise dramatically. But those models' predictions have, so
far, been wrong in the sense that they say we should have been hotter than
we have been.

But bad models that make wrong or unskillful predictions are certainly not a
sufficiently powerful reason to restrain unavoidable bureaucratic zeal
coupled to the belief that any change in anything (including climate) is
some body's fault.

The second component is the most important part, so pay attention. It is the
belief-and it is only a belief, a faith-that whatever changes in the climate
that occur will be bad changes, or changes that will in some way be harmful
to humans.

This is a belief because there is no direct evidence that shows climate
change will be deleterious. There are scads of statistical studies that says
that if the climate changes and if a laundry list of other conditions hold,
then this or that bad thing will happen.

Understand: a changing climate itself is meaningless. The only interesting
question is how that changing climate affects humans.

There have been hundreds, thousands, of studies that make guesses of how
climate change will influence humans. The conclusions of these studies are
statistical, and must be because by definition they are predictions. We have
to wait and see whether these predictions are accurate. I can tell you that
the level of statistical expertise in these publications has been poor at
best and appalling at worst.

There is strong evidence of the investigator effect in these papers, which
in these cases translates to an odd desire on the part of researchers to be
the first to say how fast we are going to hell in a hand basket. My evidence
for this is that there have been almost no studies that show any good thing
that can happen in a warmer, more CO2 rich climate, and that it is
impossible for there not to be good or helpful effects.

There is a hidden component here. Even if the climate changes significantly
because of humans, and even if those changes might be harmful, then we must
also believe that it will be impossible to avoid or mitigate the harm. We
must believe that humans will not be able to effect a technological or
economical solution to the problems we might face.

Now, if and only if all these things are true-if humans do significantly
influence climate, and only harmful things can happen in a changed climate,
and humans will be too stupid or will have no power to mitigate these
harms-then the EPA has done the right thing.

Else it has done the wrong thing, which it obviously has.

http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=531

Warmest Regards

Bonzo
Fran - 03 Jul 2009 07:54 GMT
> 18 Apr 2009
>
> The inevitable has happened.
>
> The Obama government has declared CO2-a nutrient required by plants to live,
> and a gas exhaled with your every breath-a pollutant.

<snip specious rant>

Pollution is the introduction of contaminants into an environment that
causes instability, disorder, harm or discomfort to the ecosystem i.e.
physical systems or living organisms .Pollution can take the form of
chemical substances, or energy, such as noise, heat, or light energy.
Pollutants, the elements of pollution, can be foreign substances or
energies, or naturally occurring; when naturally occurring, they are
considered contaminants when they exceed natural levels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution

Note a couple of qualifications: "they can be "naturally occurring
when they exceed natural levels".

The current concentrations of CO2 are above "natural levels" so
talking about humans exhaling and spotted owls is ignoratio elenchi --
a red herring.

Merriam-Webster speaks of it being "especially man-made waste"

pol·lu·tion
Pronunciation: \pə-ˈlü-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1: the action of polluting especially by environmental contamination
with man-made waste

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pollution

So again, nothing to do with spotted owls.

Now the EPA has for years regulated vehicle and industrial emissions,
or tried to anyway. It sets a benchmark target that indicates the
pollution that is permitted and distingguishes that from the pollution
that is excessive.

It works this out on the basis of what is unavoidable and what
exceedds unacceptable levels of risk to humans. Thus, in the US, there
are for example regulations on how much sulphur can be emitted from
vehicle exhausts.

CO2 is an interesting onebecause clearly, some of the CO2 emitted is
simply cycled between the atmosphere and various carbon sinks -- the
oceans, terrestrial and marine biota etc. Some is naturally occurring,
and some is the result of disticntively human processes. Even the
anthropogenic CO2 gets a partial pass though because it's accepted
that the usages of modern life demand it, so the question is "how much
is acceptable?" That's not a new question but a very old one at least
in terms of pollutants. It is now being applied to CO2, not to reduce
existing concentration, but to slow its *accumulation* in the
atmosphere and eventually stabilise it some time in the future,
hopefully at a level that is consistent with avoiding uncontrolled or
excessively rapid climate change.

Fran
Mauried - 04 Jul 2009 04:34 GMT
>> 18 Apr 2009
>>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
>Fran

What do you do when it is Governments who are the polluters.
For example, all the Coal fired power stations in NSW are owned and
operated by the NSW Govt.
What do you do about pollutants that originate in other countries.
Fran - 05 Jul 2009 07:22 GMT
> >> 18 Apr 2009
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> What do you do when it is Governments who are the polluters.

Sack those in charge? and replace them with people committed to best
practice?

> For example, all the Coal fired power stations in NSW are owned and
> operated by the NSW Govt.

Phase them out. Apply scrubbers in the interim. Do offsets.

> What do you do about pollutants that originate in other countries

The same thing -- only the people over there do it, perhaps in some
cases, with the support of an international agreement and some funds
-- such as Gordon Brown was proposing

Fran
gerry - 05 Jul 2009 12:57 GMT
> > >> 18 Apr 2009
>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>
> Fran

If you are the Goreacle, rich now thanks to pushing the threat of
global warming, you hop on a private jet and fly somewhere with a nice
beach to breathe in some fresh air.  While in flight, you can chortle
over the suckers who bought worthless carbon credits and how the new
"cap and trade" proposal will make you and other insiders a fortune,
enabling you to unload more worthless carbon credits.  Its a great
life, blame industry for global warming, part of a cycle that has been
going on for millions of years.  But when it comes to reducing a real
danger, smokestack emissions from coal fired power plants, let those
plants with those high smokestacks get a paid pass from air quality
regulations by buying carbon credits.  And if you are Gore, return to
you mansion that uses up 12X the power of am average sized house and
say it is okay, you have carbons credits.  Maybe he even printed up
those credits himself in his mansion's basement, who is to know.  Not
the government, which couldn't even catch Madoff.
Mauried - 06 Jul 2009 01:03 GMT
>> >> 18 Apr 2009
>>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
>Fran

Very good, how about explaining exactly in practical terms how you go
about doing this.
For example, how do you go about sacking Govts, or forcing Govts to
install scrubbers on their power stations.

Also explain how you go about forcing Govts in other countries to do
the same.

China for example, is a one party State.
The people cant sack the Govt even if they wanted too.
Fran - 06 Jul 2009 04:06 GMT
> >> >> 18 Apr 2009
>
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> For example, how do you go about sacking Govts, or forcing Govts to
> install scrubbers on their power stations.

There's this little thing called 'democracy', which applies to
government but not to private corporations and businesses. You set
performance parameters, get them independently monitored and results
put on the public record.

That's roughly what happens when I teach. Periodically we teachers are
audited, and we have to show evidence that our teaching programs match
the specifications of the syllabus, our units of work match our
teaching programs, and that our units of work are manifest in the work
produced by our students and that the output is of an adequate
standard for the cohort. If we fail these standards we get put under
direct supervision to get "support" and our supervisor is accountable
for our performance as well as us. If the failure is a serious one we
can get sacked.

I see no reason why the bureacracy should be rtreated any differently.

> Also explain how you go about forcing Govts in other countries to do
> the same.

People in those countries would do it in much the same way

> China for example, is a one party State.
> The people cant sack the Govt even if they wanted to.

That is a problem but if China doesn't do the right thing one can
always subject them to penalty tariffs to compensate for their
backsliding -- providing everyone else is doing the right thing. I
suspect if everyone else were doing the right thing they'd come to the
party because they need western markets.

You can always follow the idea of creating a substantial fund
disbursed subject to strict accountability to encourage reluctant
developing states to do the right thing.

Fran
 
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