Can't find microbes in lake water
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Bob Alexander - 05 Aug 2004 17:19 GMT Hi,
I've been trying to find any sort of microbes in samples of lake water. I've taken samples from the water surface, the muddy bottom, and floating plants. I've seen a grand total of two single celled animals.
I thought every drop of water was supposed to have very large numbers of microscopic animals. Are my expectations unrealistic? Am I gathering samples from the wrong place? If Leeuwenhoek had looked at most of my water samples, he would've decided there's nothing there and microscopy is a waste of time!
Thanks, Bob Alexander
David Sewell - 05 Aug 2004 18:24 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Thanks, > Bob Alexander Hi Bob I'm newish to this stuff. Just waiting for my first half decent scope to arrive. What about using a magnifying glass on site so that you have a fair idea of what's there before leaving.? Last visit to my local ecology area, I recall spotting masses of stuff just with the naked eye. I'm just rekindling an old interest I had as a kid. So just my two penneth. Regards, David
Aaron - 05 Aug 2004 19:36 GMT Hi,
I used to do this with my two sons. It is great fun.
There are several issues raised in your request. By your description of the locations you sampled, you should have had no difficulty in harvesting single cell plants and animals. Still you might try again looking along the shore in an area where there is some plant debris floating in quiet water with what looks like a scummy film and bubbles on the surface. The animals feed on the bacteria that feed on the decaying plant matter. . . .
It is possible that you have collected samples with the desired specimen, but may be having problems preparing the slides or with the microscope..
What brand and type of microscope are you using? How much experience have you had using this instrument? .What eyepieces and objectives are you using? How are you preparing your slides?
With this information, it may be easier to figur out what needs to be done.
Aaron
>Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Thanks, > Bob Alexander Bob Alexander - 05 Aug 2004 23:59 GMT > What brand and type of microscope are you using? How much experience > have you had using this instrument? .What eyepieces and objectives are > you using? How are you preparing your slides? The microscope is Edmund Scientific's "Beginner Microscope Kit" with a fixed 10x eyepiece and 4x, 10x, and 40x objectives. I have not had much experience (it is, after all, a beginner's scope). Slide preparation is just getting a drop of water in an eyedropper, putting it on the slide, and putting a cover slip on. I know enough to avoid air bubbles. I'm not using any stains or filters.
Thanks, Bob
Aaron - 06 Aug 2004 00:52 GMT Hi Bob,
If this is the kit for $100.00, that is a large part of your problem because it is a child's toy..
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3112201
You will alwasys be struggling with this equipment because the basic elements are so poor. It is designed more to provide a child with the feeling of using a microscope than it is capable of real use as a scientific instrument..
You can keep trying to work with the lake samples and you may get occaional success as you learn more about the scope, but i would not expect much..
I would recommend that you look on eBay for a used industrial microscope that is 40 years old and that is in usable optical condition. There are many instruments for sale under $150 from makers like American Optical, Bauch and Lomb, Spencer, and Reichert..
If you do not want to risk making a purchase on eBay, I. Miller in Philadelphia is a well known dealer in professional microscopes. I have seen offerings by him of decent instrument in the under $300 range that have been refurbished.in his shop.. Believe me these prices are rock bottom cheap for the level of equipment. Once you look through one of these scopes you will realize the vast difference.
To learn more about microscopes and what to look for in an instrument start with this link.
http://genbiol.cbs.umn.edu/PIF_files/PIF_Docs/PIF_R_Files/library/microscopy/mic roscopy1.html
Click on the button for "microscopy primer" and then the heading for "anatomy of a microscope"
The Molecular Expressions website is a vast resource for all information on microscopes and microspy.. I suggest that you become aquainted with the elements of a microscope and the important features. Then you can shop for an instrument intelligently.
Good Luck Aaron
>> What brand and type of microscope are you using? How much experience >> have you had using this instrument? .What eyepieces and objectives are [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Thanks, > Bob GTO - 06 Aug 2004 07:17 GMT I agree that this microscope [1] is a toy and your recommendation to purchase a used scope is very good. But I still believe that it is better than the optics used by Leeuwenhoek [2].
Hence, there is most certainly a possibility for Bob to see single cell plants and animals using his scope. I believe his problems are in sample prep.
Prof. Werner Nachtigall writes in his beautiful booklet about Microscopy [3]:
"Where there is water, there is life. However, a drop of water taken from a large, clear lake would contain live organisms only in the rare circumstances of a heavy "bloom" of microorganisms."
I recommend to read Werner's chapter about "Aquatic Microorganisms".
Gregor
[1] http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3112201 [2] http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/leeuwenhoek.html [3] W. Nachtigall, Exploring with the Microscope, page 111, Sterling Publishing Co, Inc., 1995.
Aaron - 06 Aug 2004 10:42 GMT Hi Gregor,
You need to go back to my first response to Bob's question,. where I pointed out the most likely area to look for concentrations of organisms. He should include a little plant detritus (decaying matter) in the slide as the bacteria and the protozoa will tend to remain in the area.
Now let me expand on why I see Bob's microscope as a problem in this instance and why it is not as good as the system used by Leeuwenhoek . I agree that the optics in Bob;s scope are slightly better than Leeuwenhoek's However, Leeuwenhoek's microscope used a very effective design to hang the specimen right in front of the magnifying element of his microscope. He did not have to chase after a target that could swim quickly out of his field of view. Bob on the other hand, is working with slides which provide a vast area, relative to his field of view,, in which the critters can swim.. Further Bob does not have the basic X-Y stage controls we take for granted on our scopes. The slide is held by simple clips and he needs to move the slide with his fingers. Even with X-Y controls it is tough to keep the protozoans in the field of view at magnificationsnormally used to see reasonable details. Without the stage controls, Bob is likely to make vast random jumps across the field instead of being able to systematically search the area under the coverglass. .
Better subjects for a beginner with this microscope would be mounted insect parts, printed materials like money and stamps These subjects are stable and relatively large and would make use of the 4X and 10X objectives..
Its not that seeing protozoans is impossible with his microscope, it's just a very difficult task.
Aaron . .
Bob needs to find a sample with enormous concentrations of cells and he would probably benefit from some gelling agent which slows the critters down.
To Leeuwenhoek just seeing something swimming was the major breakthrough. In order to keep Bob's interest and his kids interest I am sure they want to see some internal details and the cillia moving.etc. A low magnification image is not going to do the trick.
. .
>I agree that this microscope [1] is a toy and your recommendation to >purchase a used scope is very good. But I still believe that it is better [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >[3] W. Nachtigall, Exploring with the Microscope, page 111, Sterling >Publishing Co, Inc., 1995. KBob - 28 Dec 2004 16:43 GMT >I agree that this microscope [1] is a toy and your recommendation to >purchase a used scope is very good. But I still believe that it is better [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >[3] W. Nachtigall, Exploring with the Microscope, page 111, Sterling >Publishing Co, Inc., 1995. There's also a seasonal aspect to this. In the cold of winter many protozoa encystize or go to the bottom. Best bet is to do a visual survey of the lake shore, and sample from areas where there is evidence of vegetation or scum present, or where the water is relatively still, or stagnant. I find a large number of protozoa just from the birdbath in front of my home, even in winter.
Bob Alexander - 06 Aug 2004 21:02 GMT Hi Aaron,
> If this is the kit for $100.00, that is a large part of your problem > because it is a child's toy.. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You will alwasys be struggling with this equipment because the basic > elements are so poor. As an amateur astronomer, I'm familiar with the problems of cheap equipment, and I have no illusions about the quality of my microscope. But I *have* seen protozoans with it, and even saw the organelles clearly. I also saw something much smaller than the protozoan - maybe a bacterium or maybe a small protozoan - and I could see its cilia. I don't think I've hit the limits of my equipment yet; I think the problem is with my samples.
I just got back from a hike on which I collected some icky (if I may use the scientific term :-) water. I'll look at it this evening.
Thanks to everyone for your advice.
- Bob
Gordon Couger - 07 Aug 2004 08:49 GMT > Hi Aaron, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Thanks to everyone for your advice. You cheap toy will do a lot more than a lot of people think. Concentrating and staining the bugs is more important. You can improve the image some by cutting down the stray light in the system with a simple stop below the stage. Just a round hole that only lets in light that goes directly in the objective.
It won't take good pictures but you can see a lot with them. You don't mind taking them out in the field with you either.
 Signature Gordon Gordon Couger
I collect links on information related to light microscopes. http://www.couger.com/microscope/links/gclinks.html Please forward any links or information you think might be useful to others. Microscope Manual at www.science-info.org
Repeating Rifle - 06 Aug 2004 01:22 GMT >> What brand and type of microscope are you using? How much experience >> have you had using this instrument? .What eyepieces and objectives are [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Thanks, > Bob I have not fiddled with mikcroscopes in a serious way for a long time. I do not think that the (toy?) microscope is the problem. As a kid, I spent many hours with one looking at things.
Try using a hanging drop. An easy way would be to take somed petroleum jell and smear a small coat onto both sides of a washer such as used on garden hoses. Put the washer on a slide. Put a small drop of your pond water on a cover slip, invert the slip, place the slip onto the washer so that the drop hangs in the space inside the washer.
It would also help if you collected from a smelly oozy place rather than a nice clean lake.
Bill
bob marable - 06 Aug 2004 17:13 GMT As a hobbiest, I agree with both suggestions 1) low grade optics make observing (especially at high power) difficult, and 2) even with the indicated 'scope, many critters should be visible, although not in great detail. Some comments from my own experience: only use the 10x and 4x objectives--40x is too much for this type of 'scope; let the lake water sit in a jar, near sunlight for several days; be patient--"If you build it, they will come!" Add some "nutrients", ie., small pieces of uncooked food, chicken broth, etc., any organic material that will decay and produce bacteria--the staple diet of microscopic critters!! Sunlight also promotes growth of small plants. Since I assume scientificaly creditable results aren't important, add a spoonfull of dirt from a garden, etc., but not from an area where pesticides were used. I enjoyed many pleasant hours observing items from similar samples, with "toy" microscopes!! I now have several Zeiss, Leitz and Leica 'scopes, but I originally got hooked with a $20 Tasco scope, a Mason jar, and an eyedropper!! Good Luck!!
KBob - 28 Dec 2004 16:47 GMT >>> What brand and type of microscope are you using? How much experience >>> have you had using this instrument? .What eyepieces and objectives are [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Bill You can also find slides with central depressions that are intended to contain droplets. These can make viewing a lot easier, especially with low power. And always start with your lowest power, and vary the angle of light also (if you can).
Kevin Cunningham - 06 Aug 2004 19:46 GMT > Hi, > > I've been trying to find any sort of microbes in samples of lake > water. I've taken samples from the water surface, the muddy bottom, > and floating plants. I've seen a grand total of two single celled > animals. Just a point. As alot of folks have said, the microscope you are using is quite bad. A really good point is to buy a used phase contrast instrumet from a good local dealer. There are good local dealers just about everywere. The great thing about phase is you will be able to see the critters you are looking for much easier, it increases contrast, a real help. These instruments are quite cheap.
Kevin Cunningham
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