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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Optics / August 2006Outfitting a Lab Bench for DIC "Economically"
I am considering outfitting my lab bench with transmitted DIC capability. I would like to do it as economically and efficiently as possible. I have a number of Zeiss Standard/Universal/PhotoMic stands available that are already outfitted for brightfield, darkfield and phase. I would guess the question that comes to mind is it better to outfit these excellent but older Zeiss 160mm stands with DIC capability or go with a different stand (and perhaps a different manufacturer) which would likely be with newer infinity optics? If it were your money, how would you spend it? Thanks TMT >I am considering outfitting my lab bench with transmitted DIC > capability. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > TMT I'd be tempted by the Type II Nomarski that Zeiss made. This requires a Nomarski ring for each objective but add it to a Universal and it is just to cool!! It can be adapted to Plan Apos, Plan Flourites and Plan Achros, getting the right prisms may take some time but the results are worth it. Since you don't use it all that frequently it would work well. Infinity correction right now is valuable if your in the business, 160 works fine. Kevin Cunningham SMS Thanks for responding Kevin...it is really appreciated. Could you give me a brief history of what was available for Zeiss in terms of DIC and when? Any links to a discussion for implementing DIC..Zeiss or otherwise? Type II DIC? Is there a Type I DIC? How does one tell the difference? Assuming I invest in DIC for one of the Zeiss Universal frames I have available, where would you go looking for it? In assessing an used DIC setup, what should one look for? I seem to recall that Zeiss has a reputation for delamination in their optics. If one decides to move to a different frame/manufacturer, who would you recommend and why? I ask because I am trying to decide whether investing in DIC would be a good reason to move to infinity optics with their newer and hopefully better optical designs. Finally, can a person use a DIC system from one manufacturer on an other manfacturer's frame such as an Olympus DIC on a Zeiss frame? Thanks TMT > >I am considering outfitting my lab bench with transmitted DIC > > capability. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Kevin Cunningham > SMS > Thanks for responding Kevin...it is really appreciated. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > TMT The Type I system was superceded by the Type II in the mid '70's. The type I system uses one prism above the objective. This type of system can work quite well with a limited number of objectives, Olympus uses it to great effect. The Zeiss type II system has its problems. I just spent hours rebuilding plastic prisms lubricated with a grease that turns into glue. The customer got billed for my effort but it frustrated the heck out of me. It is more vesatile. By the way, I've never seen a delaminated Zeiss objective. In fact I've seen about 2 dead Zeiss objectives, their stuff is well made. However the Zeiss attitude is enough to drive me crazy and I'm half German. Geez, if I was a hundred percent German I couldn't stand myself. If you want a modern 'scope and Nomarski at a reasonable price Olympus is a great vendor. On this coast Olympus has dealers and extremely good sales people. As to using one companies Nomarski and anothers microscope, anything is possible. However it doesn't work in general and there would be so many problems.... Keep my name in mind if you want to do that, it would take about 6 months. Lets see, $80 and hour for 6 months... I'd be rich! At least I could drink the better class of beer. Kevin Cunningham SMS >> >I am considering outfitting my lab bench with transmitted DIC >> > capability. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> Kevin Cunningham >> SMS Thanks for responding Kevin. Any idea where on line the documentation exists for the older Type I and Type II Zeiss DIC equipment.....I would like to compare them. I have seen the delamination problem in a small number of Zeiss objectives I have seen. Without knowing their history, it is difficult to say why they suffered delamination. I seem to remember the older Zeiss DIC was supposed to be used with Plan Achromats, correct? If so, which ones were recommended? Any guess as to what a Type II Zeiss DIC transmitted light setup for an Universal frame is worth? Thanks TMT > > Thanks for responding Kevin...it is really appreciated. > > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > >> Kevin Cunningham > >> SMS > Thanks for responding Kevin. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > TMT I have never seen much about DIC from Zeiss. I have been told that documentation would "embarass" our customers. Geez, I'd like printed info, I'd learn to live with the embarasment. Most DIC systems particularly Type I systems use Plan Achromats only. Thats the primary reason Zeiss went to the Type II system. Newer 'scope system offer more but they cost many, many bucks. Kevin Cunningham SMS >> > Thanks for responding Kevin...it is really appreciated. >> > [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] >> >> Kevin Cunningham >> >> SMS >>I am considering outfitting my lab bench with transmitted DIC >> capability. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Kevin Cunningham >SMS Zeiss does DIC with inserts for each objective into each objective. Then, a small knurled knob adjusts the DIC for that objective. For older systems like Universal, etc., it is probably tough to find the inserts. I had an Axio universal transmitted with inserts and have an Axioskop I reflected with Neo objectives and inserts. At low mag, the system works OK. But as mag increases, the inserts not being tight into their slots affect the DIC results. The pre-universal Olympus scopes also had dedicated prisms for each objective but did it quite differently. A lever would put the prism into the light path or out of the light path. Then, a separate analyzer unit would adjust the DIC effect. The Universal Oly systems put all DIC elements away from the objectives. The condenser has inserts for each objective and there is still the single polarizer and analyzer. This works very well. The advantage of this is that you can use UPlan, UPlanAPO or UPlanFL for DIC. I find that the higher mag UPlanAPO objectives become difficult for DIC due to internal stress. Thus, in some cases, a UPlanFL 100X is better than a UPlanAPO 100X for DIC. The other factor is that the objectives have respective NAs. Therefore, some work best in an aplanatic (double oil) environment than others. Personally....I would never buy a Zeiss LM again. I would go with Olympus. Zeiss is near impossible to get parts. Oly is not all that much better now that they have dumped their field reps. I had an Oly BX60 reflected and replaced it with a "better" Zeiss Axioskop. Bad decision. Gary Gaugler, Ph.D. Microtechnics, Inc. Granite Bay, CA 95746 916.791.8191 gary@microtechnics dot com > Zeiss does DIC with inserts for each objective into each objective. > Then, a small knurled knob adjusts the DIC for that objective. For [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > BX60 reflected and replaced it with a "better" Zeiss Axioskop. Bad > decision. Excellent post. That's very close to my experience with Zeiss vs. Olympus. Actually, regarding DIC, it seems that Olympus has the nose ahead of the competition (even compared to Nikon). It took me many hours of testing/comparing. - Unfortunately, I am still looking for a "reasonably" priced DIC scope from Olympus using UPlanFL (not APOs). - Very good point! Gregor PS: I did not benchmark the Leica systems. >> Zeiss does DIC with inserts for each objective into each objective. >> Then, a small knurled knob adjusts the DIC for that objective. For [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >PS: I did not benchmark the Leica systems. I use only UPlanFL objectives for phase. So, if one were to zero in on one type of Oly infinity series of objectives, the Fl units are probably a great compromise yet a good balance between cost and results. I have no complaints with the FL objectives. At 60X, I switch between a UPlanAPO and UPlanFL. The difference is that the APO needs aplanatic whereas the FL does not (.9NA condenser lens). It can get very complicated....sigh... Gary Gaugler, Ph.D. Microtechnics, Inc. Granite Bay, CA 95746 916.791.8191 gary@microtechnics dot com Thanks for joining the discussion, GTO. Could you discuss further your thoughts on the Nikon offerings? How has your experience with Olympus support been? Also, I would like to hear your further comments concerning the pricing of Olympus DIC setups. Thanks TMT > > Zeiss does DIC with inserts for each objective into each objective. > > Then, a small knurled knob adjusts the DIC for that objective. For [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > PS: I did not benchmark the Leica systems. Sure. - But be aware, once you started looking through one of the newer Zeiss, Nikon or Olympus DIC scopes, you want one of them, especially if you belong to these crazy adicts of microscopes. All these new DIC scopes provide excellent results. I plan on using a DIC setup for life critters (such as protozoa etc). I don't care much about a 100x oil lens, but would like to get the 20x and 40x lens in DIC mode. So, my application might be very different from yours. I also think, as has already been stated by Garry, that the contrast with the FL lenses is so nice that this is all I need for DIC. Hence, I will forget the APOs and save money. I want to have brightfield and DIC on the same scope and I want to be able to switch quickly back and forth between them. Besides the exciting Olympus BX frames, I am looking at the E600 with DIC (an excellent choice by Nikon). The list price for the E600 (now replaced by the 80i) with Plan Fluor 20x and 40x with all the necessary DIC parts (see below) goes for around 14k. But demo units go for less. And I am looking at demo units. If I can find a dealer who wants to show me one, I usually find a friendly collegue who shares his instrument with me for a few hours. Regarding the Olympus, I just love the single DIC prism that sells for around 3k. Nikon, like Zeiss, offers individual objective Nomarski prisms. This is not too comfortable when trying to switch quickly between brightfield and DIC. Besides, each individual prism lists for 900 dollars. So, if you need a full set of five DIC lenses, that can add up. For DIC you need a well working Koehler illumination running with at 100W. My E400 just offers 30W and cannot be upgraded. (Yet another reason for me to look for an entire scope, which might be different in your case.) A new E600 frame with table, illuminator, trinoc is around 5k (Olympus prices are very very similar due the competition between the two in the US). Just in case you are interested, my shopping list is as follows (Olympus and Nikon prices are very similar, also the discounts are similar): (Prices in US$ for new parts) Frame with trinoc, table, 100W illuminator = 5.2k 6 objective nose piece for DIC = 1k 40x Plan Flour lens = 0.9k 20x Plan Flour lens = 0.8k Objective DIC sliders for two objectives = 1.8k (Olympus charges 3k for their "super-slider", see McCrone for the good offer on this part) Universal condenser = 1k Quarter wavelength plates etc = 1k Two Normarski condenser prisms = 1.8k Total price = 13.5k (Olympus slightly higher) (I already have a pair of excellent 22mm oculars, otherwise you need to add another 0.4k.) Now the good part. The older E600 is avaiable at a reasonable discount. Call your local Nikon and Olympus dealer and ask for demo units. You may be lucky. Nikon just moved from the E600 to the newer 80i. Olympus introduced also some newer models, which they still call BX. Unfortunatly, my local Olympus dealer does not offer DIC demo units at the moment. I assume they sell them as fast as they can produce them ;-( Support issues: Here in CA, things look not too bad. Nikon and Olympus dealers are very responsive and friendly. I had even a Nikon-authorized repair service from SF work at my location on a defective E200, which was then still under warranty. The service experience was great. So, buying an old Zeiss with DIC might save you thousands of dollars. If I had a chance to get a mint condition DIC setup from Zeiss for much less (around 6k) with the above specs, I would probably consider it. But I can hardly get the parts on eBay for less than 4k. My goal is to get a 8k demo unit in mint condition with full warranty (......yes, I know I am dreaming). DIC is great, but it needs a lot of green to get there. For most of us, there is no such thing as "cheap" DIC. - In the menatime, I continue to use phase on a E400 to follow the "footsteps" of the unstained microcosmos. Gregor > Thanks for joining the discussion, GTO. > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > > > PS: I did not benchmark the Leica systems. Gary, thanks for contributiing. Could you comment on the Olympus support situation? You are not the first person I have heard comment on the deteriorating Olympus support structure. Also, do you have any comments on the Nikon offerings? Thanks TMT > >>I am considering outfitting my lab bench with transmitted DIC > >> capability. [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > 916.791.8191 > gary@microtechnics dot com >Gary, thanks for contributiing. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >TMT I don't have Nikon experience other than SLR. So that does not count. However, many IC companies use Nikon stereo zooms for inspection and these come up frequently at good prices. They seem to be good units. I think right now that "Olympus support" is an oxymoron. Oly dumped all their reps and now control everything from the east. The only way I have been able to get support is to gripe at M&M (Microscopy Society of America Conferences). That works. I had software problems with my DP-70 camera and got it resolved after the conference. However, other than this, if the system is put together right, it just works and works. My BX-51 with UPlanAPOs and UPlanFLs all work great for BF, DF, phase and DIC. The current problem is trying to upgrade to the newer 8 position universal condenser. No response...no interest...Nada. so the key is to find an outlet and get all you want/need at one time and then hope you got it right. This is about the same situation as for new Zeiss LMs. IMO, Zeiss is even worse. Gary Gaugler, Ph.D. Microtechnics, Inc. Granite Bay, CA 95746 916.791.8191 gary@microtechnics dot com Interesting and believeable. In your opinion, why has support become nonexistent? I have seen this happen several times. TMT > >Gary, thanks for contributiing. > > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > 916.791.8191 > gary@microtechnics dot com >Interesting and believeable. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >TMT support is simply not available. Scientific Intruments was an authorized outlet for Oly products. That got cut off. I don't know what the corporate rationale for this is but the net effect at the use end is total crap. Of course, IMO. Well, more than that, it is my experience. I get no response. the legacy sales people have deserted a sinking ship. This is too bad since they are good people. Gary Gaugler, Ph.D. Microtechnics, Inc. Granite Bay, CA 95746 916.791.8191 gary@microtechnics dot com In my experience, the quality of support is a good barometer of the businesses providing/not providing it. Support is good when they want your business....not so good when they don't....it's the carrot that gets you to sign the check. Having a support force out in the field costs money...and a decline of providing that support force is an indication of belt tightening within the company/industry. Dealers in the mind of a company are a middle man expense to be avoided if at all possible. If the company thinks they can do without dealers and the support they offer, they will try to cut them out of the action and sell direct....and also say and hopefully provide support direct too. Since I have not heard of any major industry news that would indicated significant spending cuts in the respective industries that microscope companies serve, I would consider this cutback on service is a sign of consolidation ...a tweaking of their costs. As for parts, many businesses are going to a "no support/no spare parts/planned obsolensce model where within a captive market they can and will force the user community to buy new product every few years. They will also not produce a part if market surveys show limited sales...even if they say they will. As for parts availability, when the product line ends production so does the spare part supply if not sooner...which means that the user needs to buy everything ever needed at the time of the initial purchase. Considering that Olympus and Nikon quoted prices are so close tells me that Olympus is doing this dealer consolidation to add the middleman profit to their bottom line. The lack of parts availability is to "encourage" users to purchase the next new scope. Other examples would be the computer and test equipment industry. Ever try to buy an OEM part for electonic products a year after that particular model production stops. With microscopes having more and more electronics content, the possiblity of having electronic replacements available years from now for the scopes of today will be nil. TMT > Interesting and believeable. > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > 916.791.8191 > > gary@microtechnics dot com > In my experience, the quality of support is a good barometer of the > businesses providing/not providing it. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > TMT You and Gary make a lot of sense. One problem is personalities. This market is small and made up of people who got to the top by...beats me. One of my buddies used to be an Olympus dealer in New England. Periodically he would go to Olympus and talk with them about Business. He always exceeded quota, his big mistake was in some years he would really exceed his quota, that made Oly nervous. They would always criticize him for not selling enough this or that. One year he asked what should he not sell so he could sell more of the crap they wanted him to sell. The Oly group was astounded, how could this person say this? However each dealer had to sell to the parties in their area, if there were no customers to buy that years crap, well it didn't get sold. Thats just life. One problem with any Japanese stuff is one why the Japs save money is the last parts are produced when the last part is made. Lets say the plant is going to produce 100 A's. They make parts for 105. The extra 5 parts are used in case some parts are defective, the rest are put in parts bins. You can get old Jap parts but they are for things that don't break. Zeiss and Leica are a bit different. They can get quite old parts, you pay through the nose put you do get them. Years ago I was doing a job for a Ga Research Station. They had a 1938 Zeiss. It was loved by all. I told them to put it in a display case but they didn't listen to me. I called Zeiss figuring they'd laugh till they choked. They didn't. They gave me a part no. and a week later I'm putting it in the microsope. One of the few instruments I've fixed thats older than me. By the way, Nikon is running the SE the same way Olympus is running the West Coast. Nikon hired very competent sales people but they are few and far between. They should have gotten a good dealer. I know they had two very good bids but Nikon decided to go with their own guys. (sigh) Kevin Cunningham SMS >> Interesting and believeable. >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> > 916.791.8191 >> > gary@microtechnics dot com You got a BX-51? That's a pretty new one. Is your experience with Olympus in CA based on your recent attempt to purchase a component for your BX-51? Regarding Olympus, I have good experience when looking at entire systems. The dealer is located in Sunnyvale. Of course, I never tried to order parts. But somehow I find it hard to believe that they would not get you the 8 position universal condenser (btw, my turret has just six and I would really love two more for oblique illumination stops). Did you ask for too much discount? Nikon is great for getting entire scopes and parts as well. Just recently (three to four months ago), I asked them to order me a turret condenser for my E400 with two phase lenses. Even less known items come without problems (e.g. parts for my E200) direclty from my dealer (http://www.techinst.com/). So far I am happy with them. I do not understand why a company, such as Olympus, would destroy its service network for industrial components. Does not make good business sense to me. Gregor >>Gary, thanks for contributiing. >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > 916.791.8191 > gary@microtechnics dot com I have BX-51 and BX-60. 51 is transmitted while the the 60 is reflected. this unit is redundant to the Zeiss Axioskop I metallurgucal DIC system. Yes....recent attempts to purchase new options for the BX-51 are frustrating. The Sunnyvale dealer is Scientific Instruments and they are cut off from Oly. They cannot get the Oly parts. I did not get to the point of discount. There simply is no support for Oly systems in the west. It is like the product does not even exist. However, at the Conference, all systems are viable. BS. Oly split their scopes into two separate venues. Metallurgical and bio...or something akin to this. They are separate and repressive areas. If you want a bio scope, that is one area. If you want a reflected scope, that is another area. In any event, Scientific Instruments got squashed by Oly Corporate, as did other national sales outlets. Net result is a central dysfunctional POC for Oly and no way to get support. The Olympus infinity system is really good. The problem is actually getting it. Like I said, the Zeiss systems look really good but their support sucks big time. It seems that both of these players are out of touch with their customers. What about Nikon? I would love to hear some feedback about infinity Nikon systems. Is there actually anyone in CA that sells them? Anyone who services them? Strange. The LM microscopy venue is very weird these days. There is some overall business model that we do not see or understand. This is negatively affecting us as users. But the corporation does not seem to care about this. So, which dysfunctional LM supplier do you want to go with? Zeiss Olympus Nikon China crap gary g. >You got a BX-51? That's a pretty new one. > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >> 916.791.8191 >> gary@microtechnics dot com Gary Gaugler, Ph.D. Microtechnics, Inc. Granite Bay, CA 95746 916.791.8191 gary@microtechnics dot com > of touch with their customers. What about Nikon? I would love to > hear some feedback about infinity Nikon systems. Is there actually > anyone in CA that sells them? Anyone who services them? I use Nikon's infinity system E400 for phase and BF with Plan Fluor and Plan Achro lenses. It works very well. A good scope. Recently, it got replaced by a different model 50i, which I am not familiar with. The supplier is the Nikon dealer here in the area (http://www.techinst.com/). My personal experience with them is very good. The comparable model to the BX-50/BX-51 would be the E600 (or 80i). I use their older model Optiphot with epi illuminator in the lab. Still a great setup. Never had any troubles with service and/or parts. Currently, I still have this "Olympus" dealer in Sunnyvale listed as supplier of Olympus scopes. And now, I found their web site at http://www.simicroscopes.com and, indeed, they seem to have switch to Motic/Meiji. No wonder I was told that they do not have any demo units of the BX series. There is another one called Micro Service, Inc. in San Jose. But they are mainly fixing stuff. From Olympus web site: Olympus America Inc. 5764 Pacific Center Blvd. Suite 109 San Diego, CA 92121 Now, San Diego isn't really in my neighborhood. Hmm, that must have happened in the last six to twelve months. Gregor >I have BX-51 and BX-60. 51 is transmitted while the the 60 is > reflected. this unit is redundant to the Zeiss Axioskop I [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > gary g. Gary, Nikon infinity correction system can take more intermediate pieces, Olympus can take two only then it goes south. The objective are good to, much more working distance and a bigger thread to make design easier. Here in the Southeast we have a bunch of highly competent Olympus reps, that makes the difference here. If its even up, I'd take Nikon. Now, I'm not buying a new microscope, I fix 'em ever day, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Kevin Cunningham SMS I have BX-51 and BX-60. 51 is transmitted while the the 60 is reflected. this unit is redundant to the Zeiss Axioskop I metallurgucal DIC system. Yes....recent attempts to purchase new options for the BX-51 are frustrating. The Sunnyvale dealer is Scientific Instruments and they are cut off from Oly. They cannot get the Oly parts. I did not get to the point of discount. There simply is no support for Oly systems in the west. It is like the product does not even exist. However, at the Conference, all systems are viable. BS. Oly split their scopes into two separate venues. Metallurgical and bio...or something akin to this. They are separate and repressive areas. If you want a bio scope, that is one area. If you want a reflected scope, that is another area. In any event, Scientific Instruments got squashed by Oly Corporate, as did other national sales outlets. Net result is a central dysfunctional POC for Oly and no way to get support. The Olympus infinity system is really good. The problem is actually getting it. Like I said, the Zeiss systems look really good but their support sucks big time. It seems that both of these players are out of touch with their customers. What about Nikon? I would love to hear some feedback about infinity Nikon systems. Is there actually anyone in CA that sells them? Anyone who services them? Strange. The LM microscopy venue is very weird these days. There is some overall business model that we do not see or understand. This is negatively affecting us as users. But the corporation does not seem to care about this. So, which dysfunctional LM supplier do you want to go with? Zeiss Olympus Nikon China crap gary g. >You got a BX-51? That's a pretty new one. > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >> 916.791.8191 >> gary@microtechnics dot com Gary Gaugler, Ph.D. Microtechnics, Inc. Granite Bay, CA 95746 916.791.8191 gary@microtechnics dot com |
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