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Natural Science Forum / Earth Science / Mineralogy / November 2005Question about rock,gem and mineral shows
Just got back from a local rock, gem and mineral show. I've been going to these since I was ten years old. This is the first time in quite a long time I did not find anything to drop some discretionary money on. Not that it wasn't in my pocket, burning a hole, but that the specimens seemed to be of extremes--cheap junk (less than $5--the usual kid attractors like sharks teeth or tumbled calcite) or nice but in excess of $50/rock. Some of the latter were probably worth it (fine crystals), but it's gonna take me a lot of thought before I drop $50 US on a chunk of rock that will just sit there and gather dust. The same was true of the stone figurines--I collect real stone frogs--either $10 junk mass produced in China, or stuff $70 and up. Has anyone else noticed this? Someday, I'd like to save up my pennies and spend a week in Tucson at the annual bash... Any comment from the peanut gallery on the lack of a 'middle class' at rock shows? > Just got back from a local rock, gem and mineral show. I've been going to > these since I was ten years old. This is the first time in quite a long [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Any comment from the peanut gallery on the lack of a 'middle class' at > rock shows? My experience at rock shows lately is that good specimens are getting hard to find, and so the price for them have gone up. But you are right, there seems to be either a lot of junk sold or moderately nice specimens that are over-priced these days. > Just got back from a local rock, gem and mineral show. I've been going > to these since I was ten years old. This is the first time in quite a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Any comment from the peanut gallery on the lack of a 'middle class' at > rock shows? I have not been in a few years. The last "Gem & Mineral" shows I went to turned out to be mainly jewelery shows. Fortunately, "Collector's Choice" is here in Houston. Absolutely the best rock shop I have ever been in, anywhere in the world. « Paul » wrote: >>Just got back from a local rock, gem and mineral show. I've been going >>to these since I was ten years old. This is the first time in quite a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > be mainly jewelery shows. Fortunately, "Collector's Choice" is here in Houston. > Absolutely the best rock shop I have ever been in, anywhere in the world. Hi Paul, Yeah. Even though I'm on the female side, I just don't 'get' the jewelry part, so I mostly ignore it. Now, I don't mind a couple vendors selling unset stones, findings, wire, etc., or doing faceting or cabbing demos--well, that's fairly interesting, especially for kids who have never seen a dopstick, and one or two lapidary suppliers may be appropriate. (And where I get tumble rough and grit for my niece.) There's one local show I avoid because it is entirely jewelry--and cheap crap at that. I mentioned some time ago, I bought a cut, but unset green sapphire at a show which I set in a ring--not many green sapphires at the mall with all their mass produced 'fine jewelry'. But 90%+ of the show jewelry isn't an artisan showing handmade work anymore, it is cheap paste imports without real stones being peddled at inflated prices to the unsuspecting. If they can't or won't tell you where the stuff is from--caveat emptor, cause it's just an upscale flea market. I do miss the mid-grade specimens, though. St. Louis is not as lucky as Houston--there are only a couple of rock shops, and they are really bead shops with some rocks in them. > « Paul » wrote: > If they can't or won't tell you where the stuff is from--caveat emptor, > cause it's just an upscale flea market. I do miss the mid-grade > specimens, though. St. Louis is not as lucky as Houston--there are only > a couple of rock shops, and they are really bead shops with some rocks > in them. Lots of geos here. Not nearly as many as there used to be though. Probably over a thousand still. If you ever come here you HAVE to visit the mineral display at the Nat.Sci. museum. It is world class. Plan on a full day. The rest of the museum is so-so. > « Paul » wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > a couple of rock shops, and they are really bead shops with some rocks > in them. You should look at micromounting. It's a great way to collect minerals, the specimens are easer to come by. If you buy them they don't cost allot. Field collecting micromounts is easer too. At home storage of the collection is easer too. You can get almost 1800 in a cubic foot of space.  SignatureJohn Passaneau Penn State University jxp16@psu.edu ...... > You should look at micromounting. It's a great way to collect minerals, the > specimens are easer to come by. If you buy them they don't cost allot. Field > collecting micromounts is easer too. At home storage of the collection is > easer too. You can get almost 1800 in a cubic foot of space. > > John Passaneau Micromounting is the best way for filling one's aesthetic needs, the more that one is now able to make an exquisite snapshot of a beloved micro, and put its picture on the wall, and change it ad libitum for a few dimes. However, there is something else which bothers me: are we witnessing the world wide disappearance of the hand specimen mineral and its safe personal field collecting? J.J. > ...... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > J.J. I'm tempted to say yes, in general, to your question. Speaking only as a casual memeber of a US gem and mineral society. Here, the public and various gumint agaencies have, at least a suspicious, if not hostile view, of collecting. They seem to want to lump it in with mining and increased erosion,etc. Plus, there is increasingly difficult access to 'public lands' with parallel restrictions on activities allowed there. Couple this with private site owners reluctance to risk liability issues from paying specimen hunters and it leaves a huge gap that seems only able to be filled by foreign imports. The younger generations seem less interested in the G & M hobbies (though a general interest in 'earth science' does exist - much of it focuses on 'environmental issues' which leads to more anti-mining sentiment) and the demographic of post-war adults and 'baby boomers' in the hobby is either being reduced through 'attrion' or have had to scale back their more extreme outdoor activities and switch to using the 'silver pick' (money). I suspect there are more subtle reasons as well, increased electronic entertainment, fear of excess sun exposure, transportation costs, reduced emphasis in schools on the sciences,...? Carl Signatureto reply, change ( .not) to ( .net) >> However, there is something else which bothers me: are we witnessing the >> world wide disappearance of the hand specimen mineral and its safe [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Carl A couple of points: 1.Modern children get less exposure to available rocks. Even if they are so lucky as to play outside, most are urban, and do so on landscaped grounds, not wild fields and creeks. They also don't roam as far afield unsupervised as I did. Parents won't let them out of sight these days, much less countenance picking up 'dirty rocks'. For the longest time, my sister wouldn't let my niece's rock collection in the house, even though she grew up with my rock collection on our bedroom wall. 2. About 20 years ago, the natural history museum gave way to the science center. Now, frankly, rocks just sit there, they don't bang, whistle, whirr and they aren't very 'interactive' like a robot, or even a chemistry mad scientist. Some very fine specimen collections are mouldering in dark cases in subbasements out there. When the science center craze came about, the planetarium merged with the natural history museum here (which had a fine rock, mineral and gem collection). I inquired some years ago what happened to the rocks, and was told if I was a teacher I could make a special appointment to visit it. If kids don't see pretty rocks, it never occurs to them to study/collect them. The interest in earth science is sustained with the 'rock and roll' of earthquake, volcano, tsunami and other process based exhibits they see. But many students get to college level classes never having done even a simple limestone/granite rock ID. Even geological time walk-through exhibits have few rocks with them these days. 3. The rock show I was at offers free admission to Scouts in uniform, and a free ticket for an egg crate collection (they pick the samples themselves)for all kids under 12, so I can't fault them for not trying. A lot of Carl's points are true; conversely on a recent geologist's field trip, I took more photographs of interesting rocks and formations than lugging home the rocks themselves, because while geologically interesting, the stops were nearly all limestone, sandstone and dolomite. On person, a geo from Illinois, didn't even bring a hammer--I overheard a conversation about how "no one said we would be able to collect". The only people massively collecting were teachers on the bus. Now, as everyone here knows, some places it is ok, and some places not ok-- no point in smashing up a cool looking anticlinal fold, for example, and I would likely be duct taped to a chair and tortured for taking a hammer into a cave (Leaverite is fine, as long as it isn't ALL leaverite). In regards to liability--even though one has to have a geo degree to be a member of the group I was with we all (with our own hardhats, heavy shoes, etc.) had to sign liability release forms to the extent that rocks fall from overhangs, and we wouldn't do something stupid around power machinery. Ok, fine. It's the lawyers, but most of the people on the bus had been in more quarries (and survived) than the young lady handing out the forms. Admitted: you got to get the rock bug before you get out of your undergraduate work to be bitten hard enough to never recover. So how to we refresh rock and mineral collecting to make it attractive (and politically correct enough to survive)? I know some geos don't want to associate with rockhounds (and vice versa) but those of us who are both could maybe make some headway with the government, museum, and political types... jacques jedwab wrote: Micromounting is the best way for filling one's aesthetic needs, the more that one is now able to make an exquisite snapshot of a beloved micro, and put its picture on the wall, and change it ad libitum for a few dimes. I have never enjoyed minerals more than viewing them with a SEM. Unfortunately there is no color. But seeing an actual perfect hexoctahedral analcime crystal is fascinating, as is viewing unusual mineral morphologies and relationships such as ultra-small quartz crystals growing on fine needle like tips of a partially dissolved amphibole grain. On one of my prior positions analyzing oil reservoir rocks, we would blow up some SEM pictures of minerals so that some of our oil company clients could hang them on their office walls. jacques jedwab continued: However, there is something else which bothers me: are we witnessing the world wide disappearance of the hand specimen mineral and its safe personal field collecting? I gave up personally collecting minerals over thirty years ago. It was either ridiculously easy (e.g. collecting on a professional mine visit or excellent collecting site) or almost impossible to find anything really interesting and worthwhile elsewhere. Coupled with the reasons Carl 1 Lucky Texan mentions, I can only envision mineral collecting being on the decline. Now I only collect fossils (and that seldomly) because there is a much better chance of making a good find, although places to look for them are also becoming restricted. George P I've got to say I don't use an SEM to view my micromuonts, I use a 10 to 20X stereo microscope. I photograph my specimens using special bellows mount macro lens. I've just switched from film to digital with great results. I've been doing this for more than 30 years. I also collect large specimens but the micromounts lets me scratch my collecting itch with little cost. SignatureJohn Passaneau Penn State University jxp16@psu.edu > jacques jedwab wrote: Micromounting is the best way for filling one's > aesthetic needs, the more that one is now able to make an exquisite [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > George P > ...... > > You should look at micromounting. It's a great way to collect minerals, the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > J.J. I think we are seeing the decline of personal field collecting. My local mineral club as a hard time finding places we can go to collect. It's a combination of fewer places that are actively mining and great problems with insurance companies forcing the mines and quarries to not let collectors in for the fear of being sued. As we are connected with a university and have many faculty members in our club we have an easier time than many clubs with access. SignatureJohn Passaneau Penn State University jxp16@psu.edu >« Paul » wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Hi Paul, Ho Jo.. I have been collecting for about 50 years... Since I was a little kid and decided to start picking up pretty rocks... :) > Yeah. Even though I'm on the female side, I just don't 'get' the >jewelry part, so I mostly ignore it. Now, I don't mind a couple vendors Unless I see an unique mounting technique, as I walk by the booth. I almost always stop and chat if the person has a cabbing machine or faceting machine. :) I often have stuff willing to trade. >selling unset stones, findings, wire, etc., or doing faceting or cabbing >demos--well, that's fairly interesting, especially for kids who have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >paste imports without real stones being peddled at inflated prices to >the unsuspecting. No fooling... >If they can't or won't tell you where the stuff is from--caveat emptor, >cause it's just an upscale flea market. I do miss the mid-grade >specimens, though. St. Louis is not as lucky as Houston--there are only >a couple of rock shops, and they are really bead shops with some rocks >in them. I spent some time just outside of St Louis and one summer in the 60's outside of Sullivan, Mo. I collected about 165 lbs of nice pieces, in that summer most of which became trading material. I still have some nice lead mineral pieces. Gee, I almost envy you, all the different places which are just a few hours driving time. :) Maybe When I retire, I'll start a business of taking people mineral/rock hunting right here in the USA... SignatureAk'toh'di Jo Schaper wrote: Any comment from the peanut gallery on the lack of a 'middle class' at rock shows? I have to agree that there appears to be a lack of moderate priced items. I'm going to the Stuttgart, Germany, show next weekend, but just mainly to view the expensive but beautiful vertebrate fossils and also crinoids and gems. Having always wanted to have a fossil shrimp, I actually obtained a moderately priced one there last spring from Lebanon. George P Just returned from the large Stuttgart show this morning. There were a fair number of families with children. It appears that a large portion of items for sale are beads, polished minerals and stones, and jewelry, most of which I would consider junk. However, there were some excellent gem booths, fossil booths, and mineral booths and prices were high. Unfortunately, museum quality rare specimens are expensive. In my favorite booth (and the real reason for returning every six months) several beautiful meter+ tall complete crinoids on large slabs cost over 4000 euros each, and one large mass of mineral crystals from Brazil in an unusual form several meters in diameter had a price tag of 28,000 euros. I also noted that they had sold several fossils of complete marine small dinosaurs that they had in the spring at prices of over 15,000 euros. I've been to the fossil quarry where the fossils are from near Holzmaden, but unfortunately they restrict collecting to the intervals that don't have valuable fossils. Otherwise, I've considered doing this as a business in my retirement. George P Havent been to a mineral show in many years. The Franklin NJ show was always a great event. Round about the time I stopped going the "heely-feely" crystal people were driving up the price of mineral samples in the 80's. They would hover about the dealers with amethysts trying to find the one with the best energy. The dealers relized they could get more money and jacked up the prices out of my comfort level. But I could always find some nice showy fist sized samples for $20 or so. Now that I have a house and a place to display I'm interested in getting some nice showy things and would be willing to spend in the area of $100-$200 maybe once a year for a single sample. My middle class collecting days are over. I could go through my samples from the old days. What are you looking for? Andy > Round about the time I stopped going the > "heely-feely" crystal people were driving up the price of mineral > samples in the 80's. A friend of mine from university days (I actually brought a pile of first-year text books from him when he was starting his Masters in Soil Science) was running a series of rock shows in the late '90s. Although he had nothing but disdain for the "heely-feely" people, he needed their stall fees, and he knew that they brought in a significant number of visitors. Talking it over with the stall woman from the British Geological Survey stall in the cafe afterwards, she agreed that the "heely-feely" stalls did bring in the punters, and she saw a lot more rock shows than the average rock hound. Their position on the heely-feelys was neutral : they talk twaddle and promote stupidity, but by gathering the credulous into one place the do make it more possible to educate concentrated masses of stupidity. At which point one of the heely-feely lassies chipped in from behind me with her agreement - she'd got a geography degree IIRC, and was consciously and deliberately exploiting the credulous, but given half a chance she'd do a bit of educate and inform too. It's a way of making a living. Maybe not a good way to make a living, but neither is cleaning the sewers. SignatureAidan Karley, Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 >> Round about the time I stopped going the >> "heely-feely" crystal people were driving up the price of mineral [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It's a way of making a living. Maybe not a good way to make a >living, but neither is cleaning the sewers. in the late 60's my dad with two other people he worked with had weekend gold mine claims. most of the ridge they had claims was not claimed and had dozens of old mines/dumps available for easy pickings. I started off at age 11 working old dumps... harvesting crystals by the bucketful in some places... These crystals most 1 to 3 inches long and 1/2 inch in diameter were sold by the pound to local helly-feely shops in the bay area. One year I made more money than Dad did working the mine... In time I learned enough to crawl into some of the older mines that were in good shape.. (most having been worked into the late 50's.) I actually bought my 1st car and house using profits from selling minerals and crystals... :) SignatureAk'toh'di > These crystals most 1 to 3 inches long and 1/2 inch in diameter > were sold by the pound to local helly-feely shops in the bay area. One year > I made more money than Dad did working the mine. Well done that man! SignatureAidan Karley, Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 The fact that I have a mineral collection is proof that I have been hanging around with geologists too long. One of my retired geologist friends has a garage Full of very good mineral specemins, collected over a 40 year career, covering the US, Europe, South America, Australia, and parts of Asia. I guess the frequent flyer miles were collected also (I dont think they gave them when he did most of the traveling, though). Most of my minerals come from California, Arizona and New Mexico, where the best spots I have found are old underground workings, old mine pits and a few active pits. I do not have any trouble getting into active pits, but I have to do this on weekends when they are not actively mining and someone is on the site. Insurance waivers are a way of the legal life, everyone is aftaid of getting sued. Also, endangered species have made some shy away from tours, I had to get trained in what to do if I encountered Desert Turtles, little birds about the size of canaries, and other critters that I can't imagine, just to go out onto some active mine properties, with rock hammer in belt. If somehow I accidentaly killed one of these critters, the mine might get fined and saddled with millions of dollars to prevent this from occurring again. (Perhaps build each species it's own condo, or something equally stupid) I came to the conclusion years ago that we have far too many laws and lawyers in this country and far two few scientists. No lawyer ever solved anything, but scientists do so every day. But my question is What do you do with all the minerals collected, once they have taken over a office, and the inside of the building starts looking more like an underground mine? I have been giving my excess to a mineral society that in turn gives them to elementary and middle schools to teach children that minerals are the source for most things they have and use each day. Hopefully, this will make a dent in the Mineral Ignorance factor. > Just got back from a local rock, gem and mineral show. I've been going to > these since I was ten years old. This is the first time in quite a long [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Any comment from the peanut gallery on the lack of a 'middle class' at > rock shows? > But my question is What do you do with all the minerals collected, once they > have taken over a office, and the inside of the building starts looking more > like an underground mine? Why any self-respecting geologist would want to collect specimens in the first place is beyond me. It's like dentists collecting teeth, or laboratory technicians collecting faeces and urine. The likes of 'George' - otherwise known as Ron Yates in his real world, who has (with the help of supervisor some time ago) published a paper on crinoids, however, thinks this is a capital enterprise. > I have been giving my excess to a mineral society that in turn gives them to > elementary and middle schools to teach children that minerals are the source > for most things they have and use each day. Hopefully, this will make a > dent in the Mineral Ignorance factor. You can see the results of it here on this newsgroup with 'George' and his bloody subduction. (F'n idiot.) ..and to Jo who wrote:- > > Just got back from a local rock, gem and mineral show. I've been going to > > these since I was ten years old. This is the first time in quite a long [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > me a lot of thought before I drop $50 US on a chunk of rock that will just > > sit there and gather dust. (Yup, you're growin' up jes fine, ..jes fine, girl..) > > The same was true of the stone figurines--I collect real stone > > frogs--either $10 junk mass produced in China, or stuff $70 and up. But do you own up to your rubber chicken? (This is important.) > > Has anyone else noticed this? Someday, I'd like to save up my pennies and > > spend a week in Tucson at the annual bash... > > > > Any comment from the peanut gallery on the lack of a 'middle class' at > > rock shows? You'll need to ask George when he gets back with the one to match the ophiolite on his grass - or Stuart, with his on his mantlepiece, next to his fire engine. They're quite a phenomenon when given their head. I mean when given a bit of... I mean, .. (well, you know what I mean..) >>But my question is What do you do with all the minerals collected, once they >>have taken over a office, and the inside of the building starts looking more >>like an underground mine? > > Why any self-respecting geologist would want to collect specimens in > the first place is beyond me. The local collection I have is taken to schools and scout groups for show and tell. Those you cannot buy, of course. Some local rocks (like from closed mines) are only available from old collections. Usually when I buy something it is because I have some idea of a use for it in educating others. The stone frog bit my mother (now deceased) started me on a child, so there is an emotional connection there, and is a spoil me as opposed to cigarettes (don't smoke), alcohol (don't drink expensive booze), expensive jewelry(which I don't wear), dress up clothes (which I have no use for) big nights on the town,sports tickets or other more common American vices. Since my biggest vices are books, rocks and an occasional CD or computer program, I'd say I'm pretty atypical. >> But my question is What do you do with all the minerals collected, once they >> have taken over a office, and the inside of the building starts looking more >> like an underground mine? > >Why any self-respecting geologist would want to collect specimens in >the first place is beyond me. I guess you have never collected? You collect to documents your findings, the mineralogy, and the accuracy of your science. Why do you post to usenet? work, eat, breath? People collect as a way of education, those collections can be shown to people that can't get to that place in the field... >It's like dentists collecting teeth, or >laboratory technicians collecting faeces and urine. The likes of >'George' - otherwise known as Ron Yates in his real world, who has >(with the help of supervisor some time ago) published a paper on >crinoids, however, thinks this is a capital enterprise. Really..? Don you know sometimes you are creepy and warped. >> I have been giving my excess to a mineral society that in turn gives them to >> elementary and middle schools to teach children that minerals are the source [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You can see the results of it here on this newsgroup with 'George' and >his bloody subduction. (F'n idiot.) and then other times you are just rude... however there is no law against you being rude and stupid. >..and to Jo who wrote:- >> > Just got back from a local rock, gem and mineral show. I've been going to >> > these since I was ten years old. This is the first time in quite a long <snip> SignatureAk'toh'di > >> But my question is What do you do with all the minerals collected, once they > >> have taken over a office, and the inside of the building starts looking more [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > and then other times you are just rude... What? Who? Me? ... Rude? ......?? > however there is no law against you being rude and stupid. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > <snip> Prices are way out of control. You see the same thing said in the show reports that the major guys post online. On the other side...I have (well had) the worlds largest private collection of Elmwoods. I have been selling some specimens in excess of 10 thousand dollars. Some of the larger Elmwoods (50 Lbs and up) I hate to get rid of but at the crazy prices they are fetching I can't help not to. I know for certain I have sold at least 30 specimens for between 5 and 15 thousand, and they cost me from 100 to maybe 500 bucks on the high side. |
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