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Natural Science Forum / Physics / New Theories / January 2005



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the big bang .. why & what was before it ?

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John - 03 Aug 2004 08:39 GMT
Hi all,

I don't know if this is the right group for these kind of questions or
if it has been asked before but i'm going to give it a try.

Here it is: I just saw a documentary about the creation of the
universe. Which was the, big bang, cloud of gas with the right initial
parameters, <a lot of time>, the situation right now, theory.

The whole thing left me with two questions. Which are:

1) Can anything be said about the shape of the universe. For example:
* is it a sphere
* does it just go on forever in all directions, or is it finite
* does an end point connect to an opposite start point
* is space/time so distorted at points that there is no shape

Imho if we can determine how much stuff there is in it, and +/-where,
we should be able to determine the shape based on the gravity effects.

2) Can we say anything about the why of the big bang itself.
* Did it happen before and is it a big loop [ 1)big bang, 2)universe
formation, 3) universe collapse, back to 1) ].
* Is our universe the only one or are there more. And if so where are
the other ones located.
* Is our universe just a sub universe which is a part of bigger
universe, which is part of .. etc ..

And most importantly is there something known about some kind of big
idea.

* Is it some kind of universe evolution mechanism.
* Is there some point to it all, or is it just random molecules doing
their thing.
* What started the (first) big bang. In other words how did it begin?
I find it hard to believe that it, at some point, just was there ..

I realise that most of these questions probably can't be answered, but
maybe people can give their ideas about it, links to good articles on
this or maybe refer to radical new ideas or old ones that make some
sense.

Thanks for any replies !
John - 03 Aug 2004 08:44 GMT
[snip]

>* What started the (first) big bang. In other words how did it begin?
>I find it hard           tobelievethatit,atsomepoint,justwasthere..

Hmmm .. my newsreader messed up this line. It should read:

I find it hard to believe that it, at some point, just was there ..
߃-- ¹¹ - 03 Aug 2004 16:07 GMT
The Big-Bang is a theory that was created to satisfy the concept that
everything has to have a beginning and and end.

Humans can't comprehend an environment that doesn't, as it fits their
life and death cycle, and their concept is magnified into a Universal
concept, with all kinds of math to justify it.

It's the accepted hypothesis these days, from the  limited point of view
of earth sciences..
߃--¹¹
Thomas Cuny - 03 Aug 2004 17:19 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> * does an end point connect to an opposite start point
> * is space/time so distorted at points that there is no shape

The universe does not have shape.

> Imho if we can determine how much stuff there is in it, and
> +/-where, we should be able to determine the shape based on the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> * Is our universe just a sub universe which is a part of bigger
> universe, which is part of .. etc ..

1) Big Bang
2) Big Crunch

There are more universes.
The other universes are not connected to our universe. Anything
connected to our universe is part of our universe.

> And most importantly is there something known about some kind of big
> idea.
>
> * Is it some kind of universe evolution mechanism.
Yes. Colapse.
> * Is there some point to it all, or is it just random molecules
> doing their thing.
That is a question for a group about religion.
> * What started the (first) big bang. In other words how did it
> begin? I find it hard to believe that it, at some point, just was
> there ..
The object that became the universe interacted with another object.
The origin of objects is a question for a group about religion.

> I realise that most of these questions probably can't be answered,
> but maybe people can give their ideas about it, links to good
> articles on this or maybe refer to radical new ideas or old ones
> that make some sense.
>
> Thanks for any replies !
Willy West - 03 Aug 2004 22:42 GMT
The little bang.
Nothing, like before playing a record not on the turntable.
Time did not exist either, and cam with the expansion
.

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Thanks for any replies !
operator jay - 04 Aug 2004 12:51 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> * is it a sphere
> * does it just go on forever in all directions, or is it finite

Somewhere recently I read about a size of, I think, 160 billion LY.  Don't
ask.  Not only is it still expanding but the expansion seems to be still
accelerating.

> * does an end point connect to an opposite start point

If there were an edge maybe you couldn't even catch up to it.

> * is space/time so distorted at points that there is no shape

I guess a singularity might represent distortion so severe that there is no
shape.

> Imho if we can determine how much stuff there is in it, and +/-where,
> we should be able to determine the shape based on the gravity effects.

There are many problems with this.  Energy is equivalent to mass by E=mc^2.
The energy accelerating the expansion of the universe is a lot of energy.
What is it?  Where is it?  Is there 'dark matter'?  If there's black holes
out there then how much mass is that?

'Stuff' that we're aware of seems to be more or less evenly distributed.
Look for COsmic Background Explorer COBE.

> 2) Can we say anything about the why of the big bang itself.
> * Did it happen before and is it a big loop [ 1)big bang, 2)universe
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> And most importantly is there something known about some kind of big
> idea.

Yes I understand they solved that one, a couple of years ago.

> * Is it some kind of universe evolution mechanism.
> * Is there some point to it all, or is it just random molecules doing
> their thing.
> * What started the (first) big bang. In other words how did it begin?
> I find it hard to believe that it, at some point, just was there ..

I've read about 'virtual particles' which may come out of nothing, and then
they typically quickly annihilate back into nothing.  However there you have
it.  At some point it is just there when previously it was not.  Look for
'Casimir effect'.  Everything in the universe may fit this description if
you believe that nothing actually exists until its wave function is
collapsed.

> I realise that most of these questions probably can't be answered, but
> maybe people can give their ideas about it, links to good articles on
> this or maybe refer to radical new ideas or old ones that make some
> sense.
>
> Thanks for any replies !
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 09 Aug 2004 21:50 GMT
Before the BB there was space energy in the form of waves. There was
gravity in the form of waves. It was the compression force of
gravity,and the intrinsic energy of space that created the BB. The big
bang was an inward,(implosion) and an outward explosion. In ward created
the sub-particles,and outward the three forces.   Think of it if you
will as how we see the supernova.  Space + gravity = BB   Bert
Natksi - 12 Aug 2004 16:12 GMT
> Before the BB there was space energy in the form of waves. There was
> gravity in the form of waves. It was the compression force of
> gravity,and the intrinsic energy of space that created the BB. The big
> bang was an inward,(implosion) and an outward explosion. In ward created
> the sub-particles,and outward the three forces.   Think of it if you
> will as how we see the supernova.  Space + gravity = BB   Bert

Any speculation and conjecture about what was before the Big Bang is exactly
that.  It is beyond our abilities and probably always will be to determine
what, if anything, was before the Big Bang.  It's a question to which there
is no answer.  Anyone who claims to know what was before the Big Bang is not
basing their reason on experimental evidence or the standard theoretical
model.  The sheer energy of the Big Bang probably means it's impossible to
gather any information before the event and there may well be no information
before the event anyway.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 23 Aug 2004 23:13 GMT
hi Natksi   That is true. There was no time before the BB. How can any
theory be used without time?   Bert
Dennis - 23 Aug 2004 23:43 GMT
> There was no time before the BB.

How do you know?
TomGee - 24 Aug 2004 11:22 GMT
> > There was no time before the BB.
>
> How do you know?

Dennis, if time is a property of matter, as per SR, and there was no
matter before the BB, then time could not pass.  At least, not in the
Great Void, which is what I contend existed in the space where our
universe became located after the BB.  Of course, if other universes
exist(ed), and if their physical laws were the same as ours, time may
have existed then therein, even previous to our BB.
TomGee
Dennis - 24 Aug 2004 21:04 GMT
> Dennis, if time is a property of matter, as per SR, and there was no
> matter before the BB, then time could not pass.

Tom, I agree that time is a property of matter post Big Bang, as time and
space only exist in a combined form as space-time. However, SR does not rule
out that time might have existed separate from space, or devoid of space,
before the Big Bang. Do you disagree with this?

Dennis
TomGee - 25 Aug 2004 07:30 GMT
> > "Dennis" <a@b.c> wrote in message
>  news:<mOednSIjPrZq77fcRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Tom, I agree that time is a property of matter post Big Bang, as time and
> space only exist in a combined form as space-time.

But if you think hard about it, Dennis, space-time is only a math
construct, a diagram, a chart having two axes, a figment of our
imagination impressed upon us as real by those who have come to
believe that space and time are interdependent.  Einstein proposed it
and others followed him right over the cliffs without question.  It is
taught throughout universities around the world.  Great theories and
experiments have been invented to support it, and so to question it is
physics heresy and only scorn for that is the deserving response.

I ask you to consider my argument below which I have posted before
from an essay I wrote awhile back.  I will appreciate any input and I
will be glad to answer any questions.

Within the context of Einstein's time-space interdependence premise,
(which is a conclusion adopted to explain the time differences based
on the conviction that the speed of light can not vary) it is said
that both time and space must at some unknown point warp, fold, flex,
bend, dilate, or curve so as to reconcile the differences in the rates
of the passage of time as seen in the Twin Paradox experiment.  Beyond
that context, however, it is extremely difficult if at all possible to
apply such physical terms to time and space because neither can be as
easily studied as discrete objects.  If we think that the rate of the
passage of time (or, the rate of aging) is universal, that is to say,
if we think that time is, or is part of, a medium or "continuum" in
which all things are held equally "captive" - and are thus held
equally subject to its immutable flow - then it becomes necessary
indeed to invent such terms as time and space "warps" when confronted
with such natural inconsistencies of the type shown in the experiment
above.

In the resolution to the so-called Twin Paradox, it is proposed that a
twin who goes off in a spaceship for a few years will return to greet
a much older twin brother or sister because the space traveler has had
to have increased his/her speed relative to the speed of the earth in
order to leave the planet and then return to it, and physical law
apparently grants a slower time rate to the accelerating traveler.
Yet, it would be just as nice for us to be able to think that we can
know why nature should choose one observer over another, as in our
examples above, as it would be for us to be able to imagine the
quite-unimaginable physical feat of the "warping" or "curving" of time
and space.

Yet another reason why this idea has not been further developed (that
time rates vary as a function of the state of motion of matter in
space) may be that it seems to disagree with the Relativity claim that
there is no absolute motion with respect to space and so motion is
meaningful only between two or more bodies moving relatively to each
other.  All visible matter in the universe is in motion; therefore, we
cannot locate a stationary point in the universe from which to measure
the motion of a single body.  Any and all of our measurements of
motion may only be obtained by comparison to the relative motion and
position of other objects.

Nevertheless, is not Einstein's other premise (noted in the third
paragraph, page one in the Introduction section) - that time and space
are dependent on the state of motion of an observer - simply the one
exception where motion is meaningful to something other than the
relative motion of two bodies?  His two premises contradict each
other, yet each can stand alone as inductive reasoning, or as "special
cases".  The premise of the paragraph above holds true when we wish to
measure the relative motion of objects in space because that requires
only other bodies to enable us to make comparisons between them.
Still, my contention that motion is meaningful to something other than
just the motion of two bodies, where time is dependent on the state of
motion of objects, is also relevant and holds true to measurements
taken by observers whose states of motion differ, as they do in our
moving-train and space-traveler-twin experiments.  We have already
noted above that it is the difference in the states of motion of the
observers that yields consequential outcomes in measurements of time.

Can we not also validly deduce from all of the above that the rate of
the passage of time for an object depends on that object's state of
motion, and not simply on the fact that two or more bodies are moving
relatively to each other?  This is a relevant argument because, if it
would be true in all cases that motion is important only between two
bodies, it could be argued then that time rates vary only when bodies
in relative proximity move at relatively different speeds, because in
such cases they will affect each other's states of motion and thus
each other's time rates, at certain distances from each other.  That
interpretation has to do with the spatial positioning of bodies and
that does indeed require the involvement of both time and space in an
interdependent relationship, as Einstein has correctly noted.

If it is true instead, though, that time alone - sans space - is
dependent on motion, then the rate of the passage of time for an
object depends at any given moment upon the current state of motion in
space of that single object, regardless of the state of motion or
spatial size and position of any other object (except, of course, when
the condition of any nearby body is such that it may affect our
object's state of motion).  A small point, admittedly so, but a
relevant one nevertheless because if we accept the latter of the two
arguments above as true, and if the reader is in agreement with my
arguments so far in this chapter, then our goal of freeing the concept
of time from its binding ties to the concept of space is therefore
achieved.  So now space remains a property of the universe, but time
must be recognized as an essential property of visible matter, and the
rate of the passage of time for a discrete object depends on the state
of motion of that particular discrete object, and not necessarily on
an interdependent relationship with space.

> However, SR does not rule
> out that time might have existed separate from space, or devoid of space,
> before the Big Bang. Do you disagree with this?

Quite so, Dennis, that SR does not rule it out.  Since we can not ever
know of anything before the BB, it is not a question of agreeing or
not, but simply a matter of believing whatever we want to in that
particular case.  I like to think that if time is a property of matter
and not of space, and Absolute space existed in the space of our BB
before it went off, there was no matter around then so time did not
exist in that area.  My idea of time is important because it leads us
to think about other things like explaining what else could have
happened besides the Inflationary Period to explain the distribution
of elements in our universe.

Regards
TomGee
Dennis - 26 Aug 2004 18:59 GMT
> > Tom, I agree that time is a property of matter post Big Bang, as time and
> > space only exist in a combined form as space-time.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> experiments have been invented to support it, and so to question it is
> physics heresy and only scorn for that is the deserving response.

You say tht scientists accept it and support it. You then say that if I
think hard about it, I will realize that they are all wrong. I have thought
hard about it, and I agree with them, at least as far as that there does
exist space-time. I belive that examples cannot be provided in the universe
as we currently know it, of space that exists outside of a context of time.

> I ask you to consider my argument below which I have posted before
> from an essay I wrote awhile back.  I will appreciate any input and I
> will be glad to answer any questions.

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say. Sorry.

> > However, SR does not rule
> > out that time might have existed separate from space, or devoid of space,
> > before the Big Bang. Do you disagree with this?
> >
> Quite so, Dennis, that SR does not rule it out.  Since we can not ever
> know of anything before the BB,

I disagree with this.

> I like to think that if time is a property of matter
> and not of space,

What is the difference, to you, between matter and space?

>and Absolute space existed in the space of our BB
> before it went off, there was no matter around then so time did not
> exist in that area.  My idea of time is important because

Please express your idea of time more concisely, so that I can undersand it
more easily.
TomGee - 27 Aug 2004 00:54 GMT
> > > Tom, I agree that time is a property of matter post Big Bang, as time
>  and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> hard about it, and I agree with them, at least as far as that there does
> exist space-time.

But it only exists as a figment of our imaginations, a math construct.
Or do you think that time is a property of space?  Or that time
passes for space?  Or, as most have interpreted Einstein, that time
and space are interdependent?

> I belive that examples cannot be provided in the universe
> as we currently know it, of space that exists outside of a context of time.

Well, SR has provided that example in the case of the Twin Paradox,
where time is shown to be a property of discrete matter.
>  
> > I ask you to consider my argument below which I have posted before
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I disagree with this.

With what?

> > I like to think that if time is a property of matter
> > and not of space,
>
> What is the difference, to you, between matter and space?

Matter is something we can see while space is something we see
through.

> >and Absolute space existed in the space of our BB
> > before it went off, there was no matter around then so time did not
> > exist in that area.  My idea of time is important because
>
> Please express your idea of time more concisely, so that I can undersand it
> more easily.

I propose that time is a property of matter and that time passes
inversely proportional to the state of motion of discrete objects or
systems.

In other words, the faster we go, the slower time passes for us; but
the slower we go, the faster time passes for us.  Have you reviewed
the Twin Paradox and the resolution it proposes?  My idea of time
follows from the resolution which explains that the reason for the
differences in the passage of time for each twin is because one goes
faster in space for some time than the other.  In leaving earth, one
twin had to go faster in order to leave it, and then the twin had to
go faster in order to come back to it.  The twin on earth aged at a
certain rate the same as before his twin left, but when one twin left
the planet and on his way back, his time rate slowed below that of the
passage of time on earth because he was moving faster in space than
the earth.  The only essential difference betweem the twins during the
trip was that one went faster than the other one, and it was that
difference that determined the rate of the passage of time for the
astronaut twin.

To me, that shows that time is a property of matter and that it passes
at rates dependent upon an object's state of motion in space.  Nothing
else can so effectively account for the time differences between the
twins.  If you agree so far, please note that none of this has to do
with space, only with the state of motion of objects in space.  Thus,
I propose that space and time are not dependent upon each other, as so
many have come to believe, but that time is dependent upon the state
of motion of matter separate from any dependence on space (other than
the fact that matter is positioned in space.  I hope that helps you to
read my post a little more carefully and to understand it better.

If not, I am glad to answer any more questions you may have.
TomGee
Dennis - 27 Aug 2004 06:48 GMT
> But it only exists as a figment of our imaginations, a math construct.

I disagree.

>  Or do you think that time is a property of space?

No.

>Or that time
> passes for space?  Or, as most have interpreted Einstein, that time
> and space are interdependent?

I consider that post Big Bang, all of space is bound up with time, as
space-time. There is no space that is not bound up with time, and vice
versa.

> > I belive that examples cannot be provided in the universe
> > as we currently know it, of space that exists outside of a context of time.

I am listening. Please provide examples.

> Well, SR has provided that example in the case of the Twin Paradox,
> where time is shown to be a property of discrete matter.

If you consider that this is the case, then I do not undersatnd what you
mean by "property".

> > > I ask you to consider my argument below which I have posted before
> > > from an essay I wrote awhile back.  I will appreciate any input and I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> > I disagree with this.

> With what?

I disagree that we can never know anything before the Big Bang.

> > > I like to think that if time is a property of matter
> > > and not of space,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> inversely proportional to the state of motion of discrete objects or
> systems.

I think that the second part of this sentence is commonly accepted, but the
first part I do not understand. Again, what do you mean that time is a
property of matter?

> In other words, the faster we go, the slower time passes for us; but
> the slower we go, the faster time passes for us.  Have you reviewed
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> difference that determined the rate of the passage of time for the
> astronaut twin.

This sounds like the standard explanation. Does this differ somehow from the
standard explanation?

> To me, that shows that time is a property of matter and that it passes
> at rates dependent upon an object's state of motion in space.  Nothing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the fact that matter is positioned in space.  I hope that helps you to
> read my post a little more carefully and to understand it better.

OK. FYI, I consider that matter is space-time, a combination of space and
time.

> If not, I am glad to answer any more questions you may have.
> TomGee
TomGee - 27 Aug 2004 11:35 GMT
> > "Dennis" <a@b.c> wrote in message
>  news:<V8-dnX3QQqiUuLPcRVn-gA@comcast.com>...
> > > > > > >
> > But it only exists as a figment of our imaginations, a math construct.
>
> I disagree.

It is fine for you to disagree, but we cannot have a dialogue unless
you state clearly what it is you disagree with and why you disagree
with it.  Otherwise, I'm doing all the work and you're just coasting.

> >  Or do you think that time is a property of space?
>
> No.

Fine, but why do you think not?  Pose your argument, your contention.

> >Or that time
> > passes for space?  Or, as most have interpreted Einstein, that time
> > and space are interdependent?
>
> I consider that post Big Bang, all of space is bound up with time,

How is space bound up with time?

> as
> space-time. There is no space that is not bound up with time, and vice
> versa.

I disagree with that, for the reasons I have stated.  You must a
reason why you believe all that, or are you simply parroting what was
impressed into your mind?
Are you saying that space and time are bound together, as in
"interdependent"?

> I am listening. Please provide examples.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I disagree that we can never know anything before the Big Bang.

Okay, tell me your idea about how we could ever know anything before
the BB.

> > > What is the difference, to you, between matter and space?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> first part I do not understand. Again, what do you mean that time is a
> property of matter?

Webster's Ninth Collegiate:  property 1 a : a quality or trait
belonging and especially peculiar to an individual or thing.  Thus,
time is a quality or trait of matter.

> > In other words, the faster we go, the slower time passes for us; but
> > the slower we go, the faster time passes for us.  Have you reviewed
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> This sounds like the standard explanation. Does this differ somehow from the
> standard explanation?

Yes, it is, at least from most std. explanations that have you
calculating velocities, trajectories, downshifting, turning around,
earth weight vs. ship weight, direction, vectors, and many other
factors believed to provide the correct reasons for the time
differences in the experiment.  My explanation is simpler and thus
much easier to understand.

> OK. FYI, I consider that matter is space-time, a combination of space and
> time.

That's a new one on me.  I don't know of anyone who holds that view.
It seems to contradict the most ordinary definition of matter: a
physical substance.

TomGee
Dennis - 31 Aug 2004 17:32 GMT
> > > But it only exists as a figment of our imaginations, a math construct.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you state clearly what it is you disagree with and why you disagree
> with it.  Otherwise, I'm doing all the work and you're just coasting.

I think that space-time is real. You may it to be a figment of your
imagination, if you wish. However, I consider that there exists space and
there exists time, and all of space is bound up with time, such that there
exists space-time.

> > >  Or do you think that time is a property of space?
> >
> > No.
> >
> Fine, but why do you think not?  Pose your argument, your contention.

Space and time are the 2 fundamental conponents of the universe. I do not
believe that either is a property of the other. Post Big Bang, they exist in
a combined form. That does not make either a property of the other.

> > >Or that time
> > > passes for space?  Or, as most have interpreted Einstein, that time
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >
> How is space bound up with time?

If you provide me with any example of space, I will tell you how that space
can only be recognized by virtue of its passing through time. I feel
confident that I can do this, because all of space is bound up with time, as
space-time.

> > as
> > space-time. There is no space that is not bound up with time, and vice
> > versa.
> >
> I disagree with that, for the reasons I have stated.  You must a
> reason why you believe all that,

>or are you simply parroting what was
> impressed into your mind?

Please tell me that this is not an attempt to insult me.

> Are you saying that space and time are bound together, as in
> "interdependent"?

For example, consider the earth, or perhaps consider an electron. Both are
always in motion, through rotation, revolution, etc., and this motion
requires time. Nothing is ever completely still. Everything is always in
motion, and motion requires time.

> > I am listening. Please provide examples.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Okay, tell me your idea about how we could ever know anything before
> the BB.

I believe that there is only one nature in the universe. Everything in
nature follows the same pattern. If we can understand this pattern as it
relates to entities here on earth, we can then extrapolate through our
awareness of the pattern to the universe as a whole, from which the post Big
Bang era is only a part.
TomGee - 01 Sep 2004 02:15 GMT
> > > > But it only exists as a figment of our imaginations, a math construct.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> there exists time, and all of space is bound up with time, such that there
> exists space-time.

Can you explain what you mean by, "space is bound up with time"?

> Space and time are the 2 fundamental conponents of the universe.

I believe you are mistaken in that.  Neither is the basis for the
universe and there are many more fundamental components of the
universe.

> I do not
> believe that either is a property of the other.

Good, neither do I.

> Post Big Bang, they exist in
> a combined form. That does not make either a property of the other.

No, nothing could be further from the truth.

> > > >Or that time
> > > > passes for space?  Or, as most have interpreted Einstein, that time
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Please tell me that this is not an attempt to insult me.

Forgive me, please.  I became frustrated from trying to figure out why
you believe the way you do.

> > Are you saying that space and time are bound together, as in
> > "interdependent"?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> requires time. Nothing is ever completely still. Everything is always in
> motion, and motion requires time.

Fine, but note that you left out any reference to space.  Very good.
I think we're getting somewhere.  Everything visible to us is in
motion, and time is a property of everything visible to us, and as a
property of matter, it passes inversely proportional to an object's
state of motion.

> > > > > I disagree with this.
>  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> awareness of the pattern to the universe as a whole, from which the post Big
> Bang era is only a part.

Ummm, okay, I stand corrected.
Dennis - 01 Sep 2004 05:51 GMT
> > I think that space-time is real. You may it to be a figment of your
> > imagination, if you wish. However, I consider that there exists space and
> > there exists time, and all of space is bound up with time, such that there
> > exists space-time.
> >
> Can you explain what you mean by, "space is bound up with time"?

All of space is always in motion, and motion requires time.

> > Space and time are the 2 fundamental conponents of the universe.
> >
> I believe you are mistaken in that.  Neither is the basis for the
> universe and there are many more fundamental components of the
> universe.

Can you name some of the other fundamental components?

> > I do not
> > believe that either is a property of the other.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> No, nothing could be further from the truth.

Do you think that we are talking about truth? We are both voicing our
opinion.

> > For example, consider the earth, or perhaps consider an electron. Both are
> > always in motion, through rotation, revolution, etc., and this motion
> > requires time. Nothing is ever completely still. Everything is always in
> > motion, and motion requires time.
> >
> Fine, but note that you left out any reference to space.

Space is that which is in motion through time. As I said, I  consider that
there is only space and time, and their combined form of space-time.

Tom: I go on vacation tomorrow for the month of September. Unfortunately, I
will not be able to continue this conversation until I return.
TomGee - 01 Sep 2004 14:58 GMT
> > > I think that space-time is real. You may it to be a figment of your
> > > imagination, if you wish. However, I consider that there exists space
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> All of space is always in motion, and motion requires time.

Can you provide one example where space is in motion?

> > > Space and time are the 2 fundamental conponents of the universe.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Can you name some of the other fundamental components?

Certainly:  Molecules, atoms, electrons, protons, photons, quarks,
etc.

> > > I do not
> > > believe that either is a property of the other.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Do you think that we are talking about truth? We are both voicing our
> opinion.

Well, we are discussing the truth as far as we can now know it or at
least as far as we can all recognize it.  Where there is experimental
and/or logical evidence to support our opinions, our opinions should
prevail.

> > > For example, consider the earth, or perhaps consider an electron. Both
>  are
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Space is that which is in motion through time. As I said, I  consider that
> there is only space and time, and their combined form of space-time.

As I said, please provide an example of space motion....

> Tom: I go on vacation tomorrow for the month of September. Unfortunately, I
> will not be able to continue this conversation until I return.

Must be nice.  Enjoy!  Nice "talking" to you.
TomGee
Dennis - 01 Sep 2004 22:31 GMT
> > All of space is always in motion, and motion requires time.
> >
> Can you provide one example where space is in motion?

I will provide two:
1. The earth is in motion, rotating, revolving, and moving through the
galaxy and the unvierse.
2. Electrons in your body are, in addition to all of the above motion,
rotating, revolving, and moving with you around the earth.

> > > > Space and time are the 2 fundamental conponents of the universe.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Certainly:  Molecules, atoms, electrons, protons, photons, quarks,
> etc.

I don't consider these fundamental. I consider these combinations of space
and time; i.e., space-time.

> > Tom: I go on vacation tomorrow for the month of September. Unfortunately, I
> > will not be able to continue this conversation until I return.
> >
> Must be nice.  Enjoy!  Nice "talking" to you.
> TomGee
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 09 Sep 2004 14:09 GMT
TomGee  The best reason to show space is in constant motion is what
Hubble showed us. Space is not static. Fact is space is moving at an
accelerating rate.   bert
Dennis - 24 Sep 2004 18:58 GMT
> TomGee  The best reason to show space is in constant motion is what
> Hubble showed us. Space is not static.

>Fact is space is moving at an
> accelerating rate.   bert

Fact is, you are being quite free in your interpretation of the evidence.
TomGee - 25 Sep 2004 22:50 GMT
> > > All of space is always in motion, and motion requires time.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1. The earth is in motion, rotating, revolving, and moving through the
> galaxy and the unvierse.

You know, of course, that the Earth is not space.

> 2. Electrons in your body are, in addition to all of the above motion,
> rotating, revolving, and moving with you around the earth.

And yet, electrons are not space either.

> > > > > Space and time are the 2 fundamental conponents of the universe.
> > > > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I don't consider these fundamental. I consider these combinations of space
> and time; i.e., space-time.

There is hard evidence that particles exist in reality; space-time,
OTOH, is a math construct which exists only in our minds and is not a
real place.

> > > Tom: I go on vacation tomorrow for the month of September.
>  Unfortunately, I
> > > will not be able to continue this conversation until I return.
> > >
> > Must be nice.  Enjoy!  Nice "talking" to you.
> > TomGee
S. Enterprize Company - 26 Sep 2004 09:23 GMT
Re: the big bang .. why & what was before it ?

 The Smart Model was before the Big Bang. Why? Because it shows no beginning
and no end.

Smart's Alt. Physics News Group
http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3320272813&cpv=1
S. Enterprize (Science Journal)
http://smart1234.s-enterprize.com/
TomGee - 27 Sep 2004 19:32 GMT
> Re: the big bang .. why & what was before it ?
>
>   The Smart Model was before the Big Bang. Why? Because it shows no beginning
> and no end.

How could it have "been" _before_ the BB if it has no beginning nor
end, since the BB has a beginning?  That means your model could not
have existed before nor after the BB.  And if your statement above is
wrong and it turns out that it could have occurred before the BB, how
could the BB have occurred after your model?
TomGee
Dennis - 27 Sep 2004 07:03 GMT
> You know, of course, that the Earth is not space.

Of course the earth is not space. The earth is space-time. Is that what you
mean by of course?

> There is hard evidence that particles exist in reality; space-time,
> OTOH, is a math construct which exists only in our minds and is not a
> real place.

I am not sure that I understand your point.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 27 Aug 2004 11:32 GMT
Tom  Time is also a property of space.(spacetime)  Take two events in
space that are very far apart . For an observer in just the right
reference frame,the two events can be simultaneous. For this observer
their separation is purely spatial the interval is said to be
"spacelike"  we have lightlike time intervals,and they are best
described as an arrival of a light flash   Time gets very tricky for we
here on Earth use common sense in thinking of time(weak force of
gravity,and slow speed) Time is not an absolute.  Einstein merged space
and time into a dimension that ties the other three together.    Bert
TomGee - 27 Aug 2004 17:00 GMT
> Tom  Time is also a property of space.(spacetime)

Hello, Herb.  I disagree because a property in physics is a quality or
trait belonging to a particular thing.  We can show that matter has
the property of time because we can see ourselves and things around us
age.  There is no way you can see space age, even if it does age,
because we cannot see space - we can only see through it.  Read my
post carefully in its entirety and see how I have separated time from
space.

The Space-time continuum which everyone has come to believe is real
was never pronounced as such by Einstein, AFAIK.  Talk about jumping
on a bandwagon, it seems many have come to believe that S-T is a real
entity which exists as an interdependent system of our universe.  It
is not.  S-T is a math construct; a figment of our imaginations,
useful for us to make measurements, but it was never meant to be
reality.  It is only a diagram, a graph having two axes, one of time
and one of space.  There is no real spacetime, for gosh's sake!

> Take two events in
> space that are very far apart . For an observer in just the right
> reference frame,the two events can be simultaneous. For this observer
> their separation is purely spatial the interval is said to be
> "spacelike"  we have lightlike time intervals,and they are best
> described as an arrival of a light flash

I'm sure you're right, Herb, but I don't see the connection here to
the interdependence relationship of space and time as put out by SR.

> Time gets very tricky for we
> here on Earth use common sense in thinking of time(weak force of
> gravity,and slow speed) Time is not an absolute.  Einstein merged space
> and time into a dimension that ties the other three together.    Bert

What other three is that?  And don't be so sure that there isn't such
a thing as absolute time.  If it is so that the rate of the passage of
time varies for discrete objects/systems proportional to their
particular states of motion, that means there is some natural law that
allows or imposes certain time rates to be set for any given state of
motion of matter.  In that sense, then, we can say that abs. time
exists, for there are levels of rates of time which accrue to
objects/systems according to their individual states of motion,
analogous to the energy of electrons based on their frequencies.
TomGee
Dmitri Vikawtsky - 27 Aug 2004 17:10 GMT
> What other three is that?  And don't be so sure that there isn't such
> a thing as absolute time.  If it is so that the rate of the passage of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> analogous to the energy of electrons based on their frequencies.
> TomGee

Sure there *must* be something that sound like an absolute time. When we
think about the only dimentional universal constant: speed of light,
that is only a kind of "maximum orientation" in spacetime.

When you pick a point in a spacetime, you can draw it's "casuality
cone". For a space of 1 dimention and a 1-dim. time, this give a
2-dimention angle. Therefore, the cone orientation is oriented among the
"absolute time" axis.
TomGee - 28 Aug 2004 07:09 GMT
> > What other three is that?  And don't be so sure that there isn't such
> > a thing as absolute time.  If it is so that the rate of the passage of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Sure there *must* be something that sound like an absolute time.

If it sounds, looks, feels, and smells like it, when else can it be
admitted that it is so?

> When we
> think about the only dimentional universal constant: speed of light,
> that is only a kind of "maximum orientation" in spacetime.

The speed of light would be a universal constant only if the
restrictions placed upon its speed through its medium of space were
consistent throughout the universe.  If the density of space as it
relates to being a medium for light is the same throughout the
universe, we can say c is absolute.  If, however, we were to find that
at other areas within the universe c varies from what it is in our
part of the universe, then it would mean that c is not absolute.  It
could mean then that speed is absolute, as there are any number of
speeds at which things in our universe can travel.  Since time rates
vary proportional to an object/system's state of motion, it is true
that time rates are not absolute; but since any number of time rates
can accrue to objects/systems within our universe, time itself is
absolute within our universe!

> When you pick a point in a spacetime, you can draw it's "casuality
> cone". For a space of 1 dimention and a 1-dim. time, this give a
> 2-dimention angle. Therefore, the cone orientation is oriented among the
> "absolute time" axis.

In order to "...pick a point in a spacetime," one must first draw a
spacetime diagram with axes related to space and time, and pick from
there a point.  We cannot look to space and pick a point in spacetime
because spacetime is not a real place - it is a math construct, a
chart, a way for us to calculate the location of events in space and
time.  Your paragraph above refers to drawing a cone so as to arrive
at a 2d angle of 1d space and time, and I agree that on your diagram
you show/have "the 'absolute time' axis.  Bravo for your excellent
understanding of our discussion.
TomGee
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 28 Aug 2004 13:19 GMT
HI Tom   The photon is not matter. Still its speed keeps it from getting
old.So you see it is not just the speed and gravity of matter that has
time. Time can not be an absolute. Time is different at the Earth's
equator than at its poles.    Spacetime is the union of space and time
into a single four dimensional structure.  Planck time the length of
that time is about 10-^43 of a meter at which quantum physics should
effect the nature of time itself.(tricky stuff)    Bert
TomGee - 28 Aug 2004 19:09 GMT
> HI Tom   The photon is not matter.

Yes, it is, at least partly.

> Still its speed keeps it from getting
> old.

Mebbe so, but only because time is a property of matter and the matter
in a photon, however small the amount, slows time to practically a
standstill for the photon.  You heard it here first.

>So you see it is not just the speed and gravity of matter that has
> time.

Herb, I did not say speed and gravity have time.  I said matter has
time due to the speed of it within our universe.

> Time can not be an absolute. Time is different at the Earth's
> equator than at its poles.

Time passes at different _rates_ for matter at the equator and at the
poles, yes, but the fact that different rates exist reveals that there
is an underlying absolute of time which is related to any available
time rate and which is independent of arbitrary standards of
measurement.

> Spacetime is the union of space and time
> into a single four dimensional structure.

But the structure is only a diagram drawn on paper or such; it is not
a real place.  It is a math tool for us to use in order to determine
the location of an object in space and time.  Spacetime is not real!

> Planck time the length of
> that time is about 10-^43 of a meter at which quantum physics should
> effect the nature of time itself.(tricky stuff)    Bert

How can a "length of that time..affect the nature of time itself.",
Bert?
TomGee
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 29 Aug 2004 13:07 GMT
Tom  I'll use Einstein's thinking to help answer your questions.We live
in a four dimensional spacetime The "geometry" of spacetime exhibits
curvature,and that spacetime curvature is gravity,and gravity controls
"time."  Kind of a dog catching its own tail.   Tom quantum gravity
could unite with GR if space is greatly curved in a Planck size
area.(10-^43) hope that answers your last question.  Bert
TomGee - 29 Aug 2004 18:48 GMT
> Tom  I'll use Einstein's thinking to help answer your questions.We live
> in a four dimensional spacetime.

No, we live in a 4d universe.  Spacetime is not a real place where we
can live in it.  Sorry.

The "geometry" of spacetime exhibits
> curvature,and that spacetime curvature is gravity,and gravity controls
> "time."

But SR doesn't even mention gravity when the astronaut twin's time
rate slows.  What power does gravity have to be able to control time?
Spacetime's geometry does not exhibit curvature.  On your spacetime
diagram, all the lines you draw on it are straight.  There is no
geometry of spacetime that I know of, since all you have to do to
locate an event is go to the time and space axes.

> Kind of a dog catching its own tail.   Tom quantum gravity
> could unite with GR if space is greatly curved in a Planck size
> area.(10-^43) hope that answers your last question.  Bert

No, not at all, Bert.
TomGee
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 30 Aug 2004 08:44 GMT
Hi Tom  Believe me when I say I can understand your thinking. It fits
well with Earth's flow of time. Accelerating motion effects time,and
Einstein gave us the equivalent principle. An elevator going up at 32
feet per second per second duplicates Earth's gravity. Even can create
curved space.  With one twin moving very fast,and his brother just
moving slowly on the Earth's surface they will age deferent.
Park your space ship just outside a black hole's event horizon for a
year,and when you go back to Earth 10,000 Earth years have gone by.  Our
great accelerators have proven SR many times.  Bert
TomGee - 30 Aug 2004 18:56 GMT
> Hi Tom  Believe me when I say I can understand your thinking. It fits
> well with Earth's flow of time. Accelerating motion effects time,and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> year,and when you go back to Earth 10,000 Earth years have gone by.  Our
> great accelerators have proven SR many times.  Bert

Thanks, Bert.  But you know, it seems to me that just parking on a
BH's event horizon will not cause time to "dilate" as you say.  To me,
time rates have to do with the state of motion of objects/systems.
Leaving Earth and getting to the BH's event horizon certainly will
change the spaceship's time rates as compared to the Earth's time
rates, but just parking at the e.h. will not necessarily make its time
rates slower than those back on Earth.

It will if by "parking" it is actually in an orbit moving at speeds
different than those of Earth.  The total amount of time differences
if and only if the ship ever returns to Earth can only be calculated
by adding up all the speeds it attained throughout its trip,
calculating durations of each, and comparing them to those of the
Earth during the trip.  Without knowing all of those facts, we cannot
accurately predict what the time differences will be if the ship ever
returns to Earth.

Remember too that the net result depends on which system actually went
faster during the time of the trip.  If it were to turn out that the
Earth in its plodding orbit around the Sun, plus the movement of our
sun within the galaxy, plus the movement of the galaxy in deep space
(if the ship traveled out of our galaxy), actually attained average
speeds faster than the ship, it would be the astronaut twin who would
be older upon his return to Earth.
Regards,
TomGee
TomGee - 30 Aug 2004 18:57 GMT
> Hi Tom  Believe me when I say I can understand your thinking. It fits
> well with Earth's flow of time. Accelerating motion effects time,and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> year,and when you go back to Earth 10,000 Earth years have gone by.  Our
> great accelerators have proven SR many times.  Bert

Thanks, Bert.  But you know, it seems to me that just parking on a
BH's event horizon will not cause time to "dilate" as you say.  To me,
time rates have to do with the state of motion of objects/systems.
Leaving Earth and getting to the BH's event horizon certainly will
change the spaceship's time rates as compared to the Earth's time
rates, but just parking at the e.h. will not necessarily make its time
rates slower than those back on Earth.

It will if by "parking" it is actually in an orbit moving at speeds
different than those of Earth.  The total amount of time differences
if and only if the ship ever returns to Earth can only be calculated
by adding up all the speeds it attained throughout its trip,
calculating durations of each, and comparing them to those of the
Earth during the trip.  Without knowing all of those facts, we cannot
accurately predict what the time differences will be if the ship ever
returns to Earth.

Remember too that the net result depends on which system actually went
faster during the time of the trip.  If it were to turn out that the
Earth in its plodding orbit around the Sun, plus the movement of our
sun within the galaxy, plus the movement of the galaxy in deep space
(if the ship traveled out of our galaxy), actually attained average
speeds faster than the ship, it would be the astronaut twin who would
be older upon his return to Earth.
Regards,
TomGee
TomGee - 13 Aug 2004 04:01 GMT
>  
> > The whole thing left me with two questions. Which are:
>
> 1) Can anything be said about the shape of the universe. For example:
> * is it a sphere

If it was a giant explosion like the BB has been described, it would
be spherically shaped.

> * does it just go on forever in all directions, or is it finite

The BB would be finite.

> * does an end point connect to an opposite start point
> * is space/time so distorted at points that there is no shape

When you speak of space/time, you are no longer talking reality.  S/T
is a math construct and as such it exists only in our minds.

> 2) Can we say anything about the why of the big bang itself.
> * Did it happen before and is it a big loop [ 1)big bang, 2)universe
> formation, 3) universe collapse, back to 1) ].

My guess is as good as anyone else's, and I think that what existed
before the BB was Absolute space, which is space devoid of anything in
it.  If it happened once there is no reason to say it had not happened
before, nor that it won't happen again.

> * Is our universe the only one or are there more. And if so where are
> the other ones located.
>
> * Is our universe just a sub universe which is a part of bigger
> universe, which is part of .. etc ..

There is no way we could tell unless we found some evidence for it.

> And most importantly is there something known about some kind of big
> idea.

Well, these are my own ideas; I just made them up.

> * Is it some kind of universe evolution mechanism.

Most likely, it is.

> * Is there some point to it all, or is it just random molecules doing
> their thing.

Good question.  I have no opinion on that at this time.

> * What started the (first) big bang. In other words how did it begin?

No one knows, but this last one could have been the result of a
previous universe contracting back onto itself.  As to how it could
begin, the singularity was a favorite idea until recently.  Before
that, steady state ideas were the norm.  A good safe position today is
somewhere inbetween the two.

> I find it hard to believe that it, at some point, just was there ..

That's nothing.  Try to imagine a Great Void (Absolute space) without
end and with nothing, no universes, no matter nor anti-matter - just
empty space forever and ever amen.  Our universe is puny compared to
that.
>  
> I realise that most of these questions probably can't be answered, but
> maybe people can give their ideas about it, links to good articles on
> this or maybe refer to radical new ideas or old ones that make some
> sense.

There are no articles that have my ideas in them.  I published them in
an essay which I sell for 12.95 postpaid in the contiguous US;
however, no one has to buy it, just ask questions like you ones you
have asked and I will provide my answers just like I wrote them in my
essay.
Dennis - 14 Aug 2004 08:17 GMT
> When you speak of space/time, you are no longer talking reality.  S/T
> is a math construct and as such it exists only in our minds.

Not much of a believer in science, are you?

> > 2) Can we say anything about the why of the big bang itself.
> > * Did it happen before and is it a big loop [ 1)big bang, 2)universe
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> before the BB was Absolute space, which is space devoid of anything in
> it.

If this is your guess, then it is not as good as anyone else's/

> > * Is there some point to it all, or is it just random molecules doing
> > their thing.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> that, steady state ideas were the norm.  A good safe position today is
> somewhere inbetween the two.

That is a good and safe position, is it?

> That's nothing.  Try to imagine a Great Void (Absolute space) without
> end and with nothing, no universes, no matter nor anti-matter - just
> empty space forever and ever amen.  Our universe is puny compared to
> that.

I disagree. The universe is huge compared with your imagination.
Magneto - 15 Aug 2004 02:56 GMT
Sounds like someone hit a nerve there, TomGee. What was the point of
that post?

>>John <ba@vla.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> I disagree. The universe is huge compared with your imagination.
TomGee - 15 Aug 2004 07:58 GMT
> Sounds like someone hit a nerve there, TomGee. What was the point of
> that post?

I was aiming for a head shot, Magneto.  Must've hit a tooth nerve.
TomGee
Magneto - 15 Aug 2004 02:50 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Imho if we can determine how much stuff there is in it, and +/-where,
> we should be able to determine the shape based on the gravity effects.

Say you created a film strip, like a movie about some people, and you
pulled some magic trick to bring them to life. Now when you play the
film strip in a projector, you can kind of say that you're submersing
yourself into their time, watching all of the events taking place in
their universe as they unfold.

To you, they live in a 2D universe. If they could ask you what shape
their universe had, you'd say it was flat and rectangular. They won't
have "flat" in their vocabulary because we 3D folks came up with it to
contrast such an object to a "fat" object, which could not live in 2D.
The best way to describe the 2D universe to someone living in it is to
take them out of it so they can see it from the outside.

I think it's the same with our universe, we won't be able to truly
answer the shape question unless we could be outside it and look back in.

> 2) Can we say anything about the why of the big bang itself.
> * Did it happen before and is it a big loop [ 1)big bang, 2)universe
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> And most importantly is there something known about some kind of big
> idea.

Again with the film strip model, if someone in the strip asks you what
was before the first frame, what do you tell them? Were there other
strips run through the projector before this one? If there were, how do
you prove it to them? How do you tell them they are stored one inch away
from a completely different 2D universe much like their own in a metal can?

I think our universe is a sub-universe. In math or programming terms,
you could say that a given point in our universe has coordinates X, Y,
Z, and W (not referring to W in 3D transformation math), where every
point in our universe has the same W. A parallel universe could have a
point with the same X, Y, Z, but a different W. And this is just
assuming a given point only has 4 dimensions...maybe it has more.

> * Is it some kind of universe evolution mechanism.
> * Is there some point to it all, or is it just random molecules doing
> their thing.
> * What started the (first) big bang. In other words how did it begin?
> I find it hard to believe that it, at some point, just was there ..

Again take this 2D example, if you were able to drop a marble through
their 2D universe, what would the 2D people see? They can only see the
marble where it intersects their 2D space, but look at the timeline:
- First they see nothing
- Then, when the marble just touches their space, they see a point
- The point grows into a cicle
- Then the circle shrinks back to a point after half of the marble has
passed through
- Then the point disappears and they see nothing again when the marble
drops out of the film strip
To them, a circle came out of nowhere, grew, then collapsed and
disappeared, back into nothingness. To you, a small sphere moved from
point A to point B.

What I think is interesting about that model is that while the marble
sits in their 2D world they can interact with it and push it around.
More interesting is if there were another film strip in parallel and
close enough that the marble could sit between and exist in both strips
at once, the 2D people in one world could push their circle and the
effect could be seen by 2D people in another world: their circle would
intelligently move around as if there were ghosts pushing it!

I don't believe organization can come from chaos (ie. evolutionary
process) without some type of intelligence being applied externally.
Laws of thermodynamics even state that a system will naturally lose
organization and become more random if left alone. For me, this is just
more proof that God exists, created this universe, whether it be via big
bang or some other means, and is still maintaining it. If one day He
stops, then the universe will start to lose the organization and move
toward chaos (that happens to be my definition of Hell: an environment
gone chaotic because it lacks God's organization)

From that perspective, answering "why does this universe exist"
probably belongs in another newsgroup.

Magneto
S. Enterprize Company - 27 Jan 2005 06:00 GMT
[Smart1234]
A letter I sent to the Pope.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Pope John Paul:

I'm sorry Jesus Christ wasn't crucified... . I even mentioned this
to you before. Well, here is more proof.

How the Gospel of Barnabas Survived
http://www.barnabas.net/how_survived.htm

220: Jesus and the Four Angels
http://www.barnabas.net/barnabasP220.html

215: Divine Rescue of Jesus
http://www.barnabas.net/barnabasP215.html

Chapter Index
http://www.barnabas.net/chapter_index.htm

Like I said before, wasn't His word enough for you people, that you
might be saved by just believing in Him? He made a living sacrifice not
a dead one.

Sincerely,
Jim Smith
Double-A - 27 Jan 2005 08:52 GMT
> [Smart1234]
> A letter I sent to the Pope.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Pope John Paul:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Sincerely,
> Jim Smith

I can hardly wait until you share with us the Holy Father's reply!
Double-A
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 27 Jan 2005 14:11 GMT
The two intrinsic features of the cosmos are          Gravity,and Space
Energy.  They prove there is no such feature as "Nothing"  The
first(original big bang) that took place eons ago had gravity evolve
this space energy into real particles. The equation is G (gravity) + E
(space energy)= U (universe) All the other trillions and trillions(more
than flakes of snow in an endless storm) mini-universes will come out
of(be recycled) the first great big bang,. Little bangs (mini universes)
will be created when a black hole reaches its critical mass,and its
horizon collapses into its core(implodes) releasing its singularity.
Our universe came out of a mini-bang 22 billion years ago  Bert
.sSweetMarie - 28 Jan 2005 14:14 GMT
> The two intrinsic features of the cosmos are          Gravity,and Space
> Energy.  They prove there is no such feature as "Nothing"  The
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> horizon collapses into its core(implodes) releasing its singularity.
> Our universe came out of a mini-bang 22 billion years ago  Bert

I like your science, but allow me to do the math, s'je te plais.
(mathematics is abstract, it's concepts have no coefficients.  When you
qualify the mathematical objects with coefficients, it is science, by my
estimation.)

Part 1
------
Allow yourself to undertake a thought experiment.
You assert that there is no such feature as "Nothing" (N) in the
Universe (U).  That is a good place to start, and I agree.

However, thoughts, if performed by your entire being and not just your
brain/body, transcend (U) and (N) is allowed.

You CAN think about (N) and I am asking you to allow yourself to
do just that.
Consider (N).  What is it's structure?
Now (I am asking the seemingly impossible, but to remember, thoughts
transcend (U) and can be about (N).
Consider what (N) is.  It is a void, at least when your thoughts are about
it.  But consider the substance of (N).  If there IS (N) (this is only a
thought experiment, so you are allowing (N) to be), then what is the
nature of (N)?  A quick deliberation will lead you to the conclusion that
if there IS (N), then (N) is all that there is.  There is (N) more.  There
is (N) less.  There is only (N).  (This is the experiment, remember)
So then, what is the structure of (N), being all that there is? (Not that
(N) actually IS, but we are allowing it to be in our experiment, just
to determine the structure of (N).)
Analyzing (N) reveals that (N) knows (N) of (N).  (N) knows ALL of (N).
(N) is ABSOLUTE UNITY.  (N) is a rigid solid!

That is the conclusion of the 1st part of the math.

Part 2
------

(N) does not exist in (U).  That much can be determined by examining the
structure and content of (U).  (U) has (E).  (U) has (G).  (U) therefore
does NOT have (N).

Part 3
------

(E) + (G).
1 km + 3 kg.
14 seconds + 3 meters.
?
These are mathematically unsound, because the coefficients are not equal.

17 + 45 = 52
This is mathematically sound.

3s x 14 m = 42 ms
Also mathematically sound.  But (AFAIK) unrelatable to any experience of
which I am cognisant.

(U) != (E) + (G)

Rather, see that
(U) is (G) x (E)

(E) is the "substance" which we perceive.
(There is no matter.  Matter is a limitation placed upon us by our own
perspective, and is illusory.  Matter are (E))
(G) is the field exhibited by (E).

But what propagates (G)?  A field needs be propagated in order to have
effect.  (G) has effect.  What propagates it?  If you have not guessed it
yet, I shall tell you.

(N) propagates (G).

And yet (N) is not in (U).  They are not the same, but they are related.

(U) = ((G)/(N)) x (E)
(U) = (G)(E)/(N)
(U)(N) = (G)(E)

Given that our (U) is a mini universe (a black hole, so to speak), there
are a plurality of (U), but the math is the same:
(U)(N) are (G)(E)

Part 4
------

So now we have a GUT (albeit an undeveloped GUT)
Can this be of benefit to us at all?

Let us presume that it can.  (We are scientists after all, and so
what is the point of knowledge if it has no effect?  And the effect can
be good or detrimental, it depends on how the knowledge is applied)

So, presuming that the GUT can have effect, we continue.
If we presumed otherwise, we would not continue.
I am continuing; I hope you are still with me.
Let us continue.

The question, now that we have a GUT (although a rather undeveloped one),
is "How can this discovery affect us??  At all?"

Let us deduct.

   discovery         ~       us   all
[(U)(N) = (E)(G)]     ~     (E)(G) (U)

discovery       affect     us at all
(U)(N)=(E)(G)          ((E)(G))^-1 x (U)
(U)(N)=(E)(G)            (U)/((E)(G))

affect us in that we (E)(G) can add to (U), would be beneficial to (E)(G)
If (U) is increased, then we (ie: (E)(G)) reap the dividends.

So . . . how?

Part 6
------

Enter applied science.
We know that (N) is a rigid solid.
We know that (E) is.  We really aren't sure what it is.  But it is.  And
(E) interacts with (E) via (G) within the emptiness which is (N)

We are in a black hole.
I'll have to stop speaking techno-babble now, because it is becoming
detrimental to the cause of benefitting us.  After all, we have a GUT now,
and (I presume), we wish to make something good come of our discovery.

OK.  Let's pretend that we have an object (the rest of this post is a
layman's study, an abstract on how to extract (E) from (N):).

An object is really energy.  The typewriter upon which I tap these letters
is really just a big, complexly-ordered amalgum of energies.  My fingers
tapping the keys are just energies.  The apparent solidity of the keys (E)
and my fingers (E) are just the fields (G) repelling each other when they
get too close.  They are a complicated bunch of energies, and on the
macro-level, appear to be solid.  But they are not.  They are as ethereal
as the Auraurae Borealis.

(N), however, is a rigid solid, and it is within this solid that we live
and breathe and work and play, energies dancing a dance, tricked by
perspective into beleiving that WE are the solids, dancing a dance in some
sort of energy field, which we suppose the universe to be.  It is
illusion, and not seeing it causes us to imagine all sorts of madnesses,
and to not come to the truth for answers, because we are insistant upon
beleiving the error, beleiving what we "see".

The truth is, yes, our universe is a "black hole", or something
similar thereto.  I know that it is, because I know that (N) is a rigid
solid.  There is not anything else that (N) <em>could</em> be.

Part 7

Okay, back to the practical.

Objects vibrate.  If you tap a crystal glass, it rings, because it
vibrates.  If you play a tone at the proper frequency, the
resonant frequency, crystal shatters.  Shatters, because the crystal
retained the energy of the tone within its structure, more tone was added,
more energy retained, until so much energy was contained in the crystal
that the molecular bonds holding the crystal lattice in place were
shattered by the excess energy.

Objects vibrate.  If you vibrate an object at its resonant frequency, it
retains the energy of the vibrating instead of dissipating it as heat.  It
resonates.
Objects are energies in a stable relationship.  Causing an object to
resonate is a stable ordering of the energies.  Being orderly, the
energies do not dissipate in a chaotic mess (heat).  They vibrate with
greater synergy, greater balance.  In the case of crystal, the lattice is
an energy plateau which is already as balanced as it's going to get.  It
will shatter at some small imperfection in the crystal lattice:  All the
energy which accumulates with the resonating gets quickly dispelled at the
point of relative weakness in the crystalline structure.

Yes, I am leading somewhere with this.

Consider if you will, a real world (not idealized) metal cylinder.  It too
has a resonating frequency, a frequency at which it will hum in tune.
EVERY object has such a frequency.  Remember, objects ARE energy, ARE
waveforms.  But there is a reason to choose a metal cylinder as the object
of choice.
Vibrate an object at its waveform, or some multiple thereof,
and it will resonate: It will retain the energy fed into it through the
vibration of it INSTEAD of dissipating that energy as heat.  In a metal
cylinder, the weaknesses of the structure, the place where the energy WILL
dissipate (how difficult it must be to cause some macro (real-world)
object to resonate perfectly!) lie not in some imperfections in a crystal
lattice, but rather in the electron shells at the SURFACE of the cylinder.
And (supposing that the metal cylinder is not in-vacuo), those electrons
will cause static electricity or some other such phenomenon so as to
dissipate the energy of resonance.  Because the cylinder is not vibrating
perfectly.
In the real world, it is not easy to cause something to resonate with
perfect harmony.
The resonating itself is the dissipation of energy into the atmosphere,
or table, or whatever medium is in contact with the object in question.

However, supposing that one were to dare to TRY to raise the energy
of some object (in this case, by introducing energy at the frequency of
resonance, so as to be able to introduce more and more energy into the
object . . . Suppose one were to dare to TRY to do this . . .
(which, hopefully, some will, after realizing that I really am serious)

What would actually be, in REAL WORLD terms, REAL WORLD, where
(U)(N) = (G)(E)?

We don't know until we try, and I am chronically unemployed, so I can
ill-afford same at this present time.  But I challenge somebody, somewhere
(many people, in any place) to construct the following simple apparatus in
order to obtain (E) from (U) according to theory

I'm not a machinist, and I don't (yet) have a lab, and my mind is occupied
with things other than trying to build a free-energy device on a
disability pension, so, I am urging you to determine how best to build
this device.  But the physics are plain.

A hollow metal cylinder (O) is placed in a non-conducting chamber in such
a way that it is stably supported by the chamber.  "Solidly
attached to the chamber" is one method.  
Attached to metal cylinder (O) in such a way that (O) becomes its axis is
some other (metallic?) object.  A larger cylender, perhaps, or maybe a
sphere. It is not the specific shape of it that matters, but rather that
it is free to rotate on its axis.  It's axis, remember, is the hollow
metal cylinder (O).  Since it must be free to rotate on its axis, it
cannot be solidly attached to (O) if (O) is solidly attached to the
surrounding chamber.  If, on the other hand, (O) is supported by, but not
attached to, the chamber, then the larger object may be securely attached
to (O), thereby making (O) a freely-turning object supported (somehow; I'm
not the engineer) by the non-conductive chamber which surrounds it.

Into each end of hollow cylinder (O) is placed an electrode in such
fashion that the electrode does not at all touch (O), but rather sits just
inside the cylinder.

Then the box is made vacuous.

                     |   +dc
                     |
 --------------------|----------------------
 |                |  |  |                  |--->vac box
 |                |     |--> cyl. (O)      |
 |                |     |                  |
 |         -------|-- --|-------           |
 |        /                     \          |
 |       |                       |->rot.   |
 |       |                       |  obj.   |
 |       |                       |         |
 |       |                       |         |
 |       |                       |         |
 |        \                     /          |
 |         -------|-- --|-------           |
 |                |     |                  |
 |                |     |                  |
 |                |  |  |                  |
 --------------------|----------------------
                     |
                     |   -dc

A voltage is applies across the terminals.
Then the freely-rotating object is caused to resonate.
Every object has a frequency of resonance.  You can use
some rules of elementary physics to guess pretty close to the
actual value.  You can cause the object to vibrate by means of
a loudspeaker or such.  (Dammit Jim, I'm a theoretical physicist,
not an engineer)  When the magic value is reached, the freely-rotating
object WILL rotate, slightly. That's how you know you've found the
resonating frequency. Remember, the electrodes do not touch the rotating
object (or) the hollow cylinder (O) They simply sit --within the hollow
cylinder (O) -- in vacu.

Okay.  Now you remove the voltage, and induce resonance in the
object.  The object is in the vacuum of the box.  How to induce resonance?
I don't know, but you need a means to cause the object to rotate on its
axis.  An electric motor?  A belt system of some sort?  There are
reasons banks don't give people like me large sums of money.  But ask your
friend with an Engineering degree, they're creative enough to figure out
how.

Anyway, induce resonance, and cause the object to rotate.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The resonating object, once a collection of loosely-knit atoms, is now
dancing to its own tune, more tightly knit than before;  the closer to
actual resonance (a theoretical limit at which object would resonate ad
infinitum), the more excited the object.  The more excited the object, the
closer it is to being some solid "thing", as contrasted to a bunch of
relaxed energies within the void;  When you cause the object to rotate,
the "solid" object touches on the solid (N), causing it to be a
focal-point for the like-resonating energies in (U).

Part 8
------

Object O (Energy) resonates in rigid solid (N). (N) is solid, pervades the
entire universe (U).  O, resonating, is no longer hollow, no longer a
chaotic mess of heat and disorder and loose chemical bonds.  O, as it hums
in tune with its own harmonic, becomes solid.  It is no longer a chaotic
mass ((E) in disarray).  It is a vibrant, orderly mass. (E).  At it's
resonant frequency, it is no longer a group of energies masquerading as a
solid. It actually IS solid.  When no more energy can be added to it, when
it can become no more orderly, when it has "maxed out" . . . then it
qualifies to be called something.  It is an (E) on the order of (N), which
is, as you recall, a rigid solid. (N) is the medium which conducts (G),
(G) being the fields of (E) in relation to (the rest of (E) (aka: (U)).
Any (E) has a field (G) which is propagated throughout (U) via (N). In
theoretical terms, (U) is a black hole, and so is a closed system to all
(E) within it. In real, our mini-universe (U) actually does communicate
something beyond itself. (U) is resonating at its own resonant frequency
(closed system), and is somewhat of a solid in its own right, inparting
its own (G), the indication of its state of order.  And object (O)
resonating in (N) actually increases the order (decreases the disorder) of
(U), thereby adding to the energy of (U).  (U)'s resonance becomes
stronger, (U) becomes more orderly.  As it becomes more orderly, more
information (G) is transmitted via (N). Because (N) is a rigid solid, and
our object (O) is becoming more rigid (approaching the rigidity limit of
what is absolutely solid), the field (G) propagated through (N) can and
will add to the order of (O). hereas (O) is already maxed-out with regards
to what energy (E) it is: ( (E)max = (N) = 0 ), object (O) will dissipate
the order wia the real-world imperfections it has in its own structure
(ie: microscopic scratches on the surface of the cylender, etc.)  This
'dissipation' is collected and distributed for the performance of work,
for the increasing of energy.  ( (E0) + (E1) > (E0) )

(O), which is approaching the status of a solid in the order of rigid, is
becoming a medium in its own right, a medium for the forces of energy.  It
matters not that those energies may be coming from halfway across the
universe:  (N) is a rigid solid, therefore the energy piped via (O) will
propagate back into (U) in a waveform sympathetic to the original
source, it matters not that the source may indeed be half-way across
the universe.  (N) is a rigid solid!  The resonance of the universe can
ONLY be increased via this method, order is brought into existance;
It is a win-win situation.  We get free energy via (O).  That free energy
is the result of the order which is added to (U) by the very fact that we
are "hijacking" the medium (N) and distributing the ordered energies of
the universe back unto themselves, causing (U) to resonate, to
energize, to tighten.  It's good for the parent (U), it's good for the
child (O).

Part 9
------
It's like getting free Satellite TV.  The signal is in the air already:
If you descramble the signal, you can distribute it to the entire
neighborhood. The entire neighborhood can watch pro-lady latina
wrestlers in unison.  Ad revenue increases.  DirecTV is robbing
themselves with their short-sightedness.  We are robbing ourselves of
pulque by allowing them to acheive their goals.  Are we not all bathed
in their satellite signals?  No sense letting them go to waste.
Support the Free Software Foundation: www.fsf.org
Voice your opinion about the World Intellectial Property Organization.

.sSweetMarie
anyway.
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 28 Jan 2005 22:23 GMT
Hi SweetMarie  Glad you liked my science. I did post this in another
news group,and got some positive email.  I will print out your reply. It
is the longest reply I have ever received in the 7 years I've been
posting(thank you) Read it tonight in bed,and get back to you.  Well we
now know space is a very dynamic place(area)      Thinking of
vibrations(song) here is one that fits the universe.  "I've got plenty
of nothing,and nothing is plenty for me"   Bert
G=EMC^2 Glazier - 31 Jan 2005 00:26 GMT
Hi SweetMarie  I can think(visualize nothing,but nature sees to it that
there is always something. Space between the stars and space between
atomic particles is not empty. It is full of sub-particles,and their
waves in the micro realm This makes the vacuum of space more dynamic
than all the objects immersed in it that gravity evolved at a spacetime
we call the big bang. Gravity is still evolving our universe.Gravities
great force of compression created all types of stars,and all types of
life forms through out the universe. Here on Earth alone we have over 50
million different forms of life. Our universe is an organic universe.
Space has a structure,Now we hear terms like the "fabric of space" That
space has membranes.   That space is inflating.etc.                I
know I left out a lot,but Ill come back to where I left off about
vibrations and heat that was # 7   Bert
 
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