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Natural Science Forum / Earth Science / Oceanography / January 2005Can this structure withstand sea storms?
Please take a look at this ocean living project at the following link: http://oceania.org/ What I'm wondering is if there is any place in the world's oceans where this structure could safely exist. I just don't see this thing being able to withstand a hurricane, typhoon, or even high waves. Then again, maybe it can. Thus why I'm asking for input from you all. Thanks in advance! Scott Jensen  SignatureLike a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle. Go to http://tinyurl.com/6fsdg to sign up your computer. > Please take a look at this ocean living project at the following link: > http://oceania.org/ [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Scott Jensen Even if I was a licensed civil engineer or naval architect, which I'm not, I doubt if I could tell you from looking at an artist's conception, which the images on the website are, instead of engineering blueprints. But my unprofessional gut reaction is the same as yours, that it seems unlikely such a structure (or as it appears group of structures) could be built (especially profitably) that would withstand reasonable wind and waves in most locations. It might be possible to build the individual hexagonal units and make them float, but linking them together and keeping them together in a gale seems like a very large challenge, IMO. This looks a lot like the flying cars that we were all supposed to piloting now, according to magazines like _Popular Science_ in the 1930s. FWIW. Cheers, Russell SignatureAll too often the study of data requires care. >> Please take a look at this ocean living project at the following link: >> http://oceania.org/ [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > all supposed to piloting now, according to magazines like _Popular > Science_ in the 1930s. FWIW. I am not a Civil or Structural Engineer either but I would suspect that naval architects would be the first to point out that the size and shape of the structures were not particularly suitable. Firstly, the platforms, from their appearance in the artists impression, do not appear to be of a significantly sufficient diemension to support the sorts of structures that you are placing on top. There were no notes on the website to indicate how much of the structure would be in the water compared to what was being planted on top. I noted that the platforms were hexagonal and wondered why other strong geometrical shapes were not employed in the superstructure designs. Secondly, some quite small vessels, but well designed, have survived some incredible extremes of weather at sea while larger vessels have been very badly damaged. Much will depend on the way these islands will behave in stormy seas and the nature of their anchorage. It may be that in deeper waters the effects of the waves will not be so pronounced. Finally, the coupling arrangements between platforms will be, in the least part, interesting engineering. I am sure that that aspect could be achieved but the cost in terms of weight of structure and material cost may be more than could be supported. Having said all that, I think that some exploration of the concept is worthwhile as it may be a way of accommodating an expanding poipulation of the planet or relocation of those who are flooded out of their homelands if/when sea levels rise. Many things will need resolution early in the conceptualisation, especially what is to be done with the waste materials produced by the people living and working there. I would presume that the inhabitants would also be able to find enough gainful employement and trade with which to support themselves and their community. Signature******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@a...> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE...... Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details. Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ******************************************************************** In a previous post Scott Jensen says... > Please take a look at this ocean living project at the following link: > http://oceania.org/ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > withstand a hurricane, typhoon, or even high waves. Then again, maybe it > can. Thus why I'm asking for input from you all. Scott: Unlikely. Take a look at the types of structures required for offshore oil drilling platforms (particularly the North Sea Platforms) and you will get an idea of the type of structures needed to weather the open ocean's forces. SignatureBob Morrison R L Morrison Engineering Co Structural & Civil Engineering Poulsbo WA > Please take a look at this ocean living project at the following link: > http://oceania.org/ [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Scott Jensen Maybe it is possible. A giant ship is created. But for civilian use it will be unsuited. During a storm people can't get out of their house, all stuff outside will be washed away, the windows should be water proof and closed. > > Please take a look at this ocean living project at the following link: > > http://oceania.org/ [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Maybe it is possible. A giant ship is created. But for civilian use it > will be unsuited. During a storm people can't get out of their house... The sections could be connected together with tunnels so they wouldn't need to walk outside to move around. Essentially walkways underneath the streets that basements of buildings would open onto. > ...all stuff outside will be washed away... I suppose what's not bolted down could simply be taken in during storms. > ...the windows should be water proof and closed. I don't see this as a major problem ... or am I missing something? Scott Jensen SignatureGot a business question, problem, or dream? Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at... misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated I am familiar with North Sea platforms and agree they in such an environment the Oceania structure would not survive. but why would they use the N sea as a suitable site. I would imagine that this method of land creation would be most useful in areas of high need of new accomodation for example in enclosed seas where the coasts already have major cities. In this environment the sctructure of a city as proposed would in my opinion be a possibility. The image shows "cells" of floor which if articuated t some degree and able to absorb the energy from waves which would be the right plan. I would probably suggest an outer wall to protect from splash waves and the securing method would need to be defined. However as weather systems change. I think this may be a bad time to make such a construction as we are presently seeing our 100 year storm events happening twice in a decade! Stephen Redford > I am familiar with North Sea platforms and agree they in > such an environment the Oceania structure would not > survive. but why would they use the N sea as a suitable > site. I agree. If one were to go to such a trouble to create something like this, one would naturally seek an ideal environment for it. However, I just wonder if any environment is ideal. Are there ocean locations which do not get hit by hurricanes, typhoons, or at least high waves? > I would imagine that this method of land creation would > be most useful in areas of high need of new > accomodation for example in enclosed seas where the > coasts already have major cities. In this environment the > sctructure of a city as proposed would in my opinion be > a possibility. The junkboats of Taiwan and other Asian countries have been doing this for centuries. However, what I'm interested in is locations out in international waters which are thus not under the control of any government. > I would probably suggest an outer wall to protect from > splash waves and the securing method would need to > be defined. I was thinking of an outer perimeter of cells used for such a purpose. They could be like an encircling park around such a cell system. Their outer side having splash walls. Thanks for replying. Scott Jensen SignatureGot a business question, problem, or dream? Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at... misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated Having seen the other replies to this post may I ask a different question: how would you power such a structure, how do you treat residual waters, in short how do you supply it with all the infrastructure needed by any sizable human community. Sorry for the slight off-topic posting Mircea Neacsu > Please take a look at this ocean living project at the following link: > http://oceania.org/ [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Scott Jensen > Having seen the other replies to this post may I ask a different question: > how would you power such a structure, how do you treat residual waters, in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> withstand a hurricane, typhoon, or even high waves. Then again, maybe it >> can. Thus why I'm asking for input from you all. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that with structures of this nature, the basic protection will be its physical size. Let's assume that each of the platforms are 1km per side, have a 3m high freeboard over the top of which is a high promenade wall. Let us also assume that the structure has an underwater shape that tapers down to a depth of, perhaps, 50 metres. That would provide a significantly stable platform for part of the community. Grouping them by sevens and joining groups together would enlarge the top surface area. Not all the structures need to be above the freeboard height. I can envisage that with enough platforms and a sufficiently sizable community living there, enough waste material would be generated to provide a proportion of the power requirements. The rest may have to come from wind and water. I do not think that the structures would be grouped into large enough entities that cars would be necessary and public transport provision might be easily accomplished in some form. Of course, a huge mountain of calculations and modelling will be required in order to confirm that this type of floating community is in anyway practical. Signature******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@a...> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE...... Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details. Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ******************************************************************** > Having seen the other replies to this post may I ask a different > question: how would you power such a structure... I'm not the designer of this ocean cell system. My guess is ocean current turbine. > ...how do you treat residual waters... Do you mean sewage? If not, what? > ...in short how do you supply it with all the infrastructure > needed by any sizable human community. Ask more specific questions and perhaps I or someone here can take a stab at how it might be accomplished. > Sorry for the slight off-topic posting I don't think it is too off topic since the infrastructure would also need to be able to withstand ocean conditions. Scott Jensen SignatureGot a business question, problem, or dream? Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at... misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated > > Having seen the other replies to this post may I ask a different > > question: how would you power such a structure... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated > misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated Anybody seen deep blue sea? That's very similar and that withstood the waves (but not a helicopter). Yes I know it was only fiction >>>Having seen the other replies to this post may I ask a different >>>question: how would you power such a structure... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Anybody seen deep blue sea? That's very similar and that withstood the waves > (but not a helicopter). Yes I know it was only fiction The question that I need to ask here is what sort of material would anyone suggest that a project of this scale would be built from? What about degeneration of the material in the oceanic environment (ie. Salt Water)? If the main superstructure on which it was built was to be made of metal then how do you effectively protect it? What about the actual usefulness of such a platform? Economically how could it be viable as it would be completely unable to be in anyway self sufficient and all materials and consumables would have to be shipped (or flown) in. I had a look at the structure and although I am only an Engineering student and have virtually no experience in oceanic structures I have to ask how the general shape could withstand wave action of any great intensity? Kai Heimann The following in a reply to a thread that might not be on some news servers anymore. It is in regards to this concept project: http://oceania.org/ > What about the actual usefulness of such a platform? It could be as a tourist destination for a cruiseship and ocean-going yachts; a mid-ocean recreation stop for cargo, tanker, and fishing ships (possibly flying them from and back to their ships by helicopter if their ship isn't allowed to stop); an emergency repair port for ships; an emergency hospital location for ships; and a place for people who can telecommute to work or don't need to live in a certain location for their job (such as writers) that love the ocean. Of course, then there's the more extreme uses of such a floating island. One of those could be as an "adult" vacation spot where prostitution, mind-altering drug use, and other consensual "crimes" could be done. Another use would be by cults that want to get out of underneath the thumb of all governments. Still another would be for some unusual lifestyle to have a place where just they are the population and no longer a (persecuted) minority. > Economically how could it be viable as it would be > completely unable to be in anyway self sufficient > and all materials and consumables would have to > be shipped (or flown) in. Last time I checked, Japan seems to be doing fine under those conditions. ;-) As for how to make it self-sufficient, it probably cannot be 100% self-sufficient. However, it could be self-sufficient in a number of ways. Use of ocean current electric generators could make it power independent. Fishing and kelp farming could greatly assistant in making it food independent. However, all it would really need is just revenue/stuff to purchase/barter for supplies from ships that stop through. Tourism is one revenue stream, fishing is another, and then there are businesses that can be easily located anywhere that could just as easily be located there. Businesses such as computer consulting firms (or at least their coders with possibly their sales force still on some land mass), writers, low-budget film companies, radio/television talk shows, and so forth. Scott Jensen SignatureLike a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle. Go to http://tinyurl.com/6fsdg to sign up your computer. Even though they are self-sufficient, how do they treat with their waste produced? Just release into sea and pollute the earth? It is still hard to completely recycle the waste by today's techology. ¤¤¼¶¼g... > The following in a reply to a thread that might not be on some news servers > anymore. It is in regards to this concept project: http://oceania.org/ [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Scott Jensen > Even though they are self-sufficient, how do they treat > with their waste produced? Just release into sea and > pollute the earth? It is still hard to completely recycle > the waste by today's techology. If you mean human body waste, it could be simply released down current by way of a long submerged tube system. There would be no harm in doing so. It would actually become a food source for sea life. The only thing is to make sure that no bathroom chemicals would be flushed out with it and the toilet paper. Prohibiting the sale of such in the floating island's stores would help in this regards. As for other types of waste (a.k.a. garbage), there would likely be a good deal of recycling done on the island to assist with its efforts to be as self-sufficient as possible. However, what cannot be recycled economically would probably just be dumped out at sea and a long ways down current from the island. Scott Jensen SignatureLike a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease? Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle. Go to http://tinyurl.com/6fsdg to sign up your computer. >> Even though they are self-sufficient, how do they treat >> with their waste produced? Just release into sea and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > economically would probably just be dumped out at sea and a long ways down > current from the island. Considering that most waste products contain something of use, I would expect them to consider a number of options (fuel for CHP, metals for new construction, fertiliser for the crops etc.) before disposing of the residues. Signature******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@a...> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE...... Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details. Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ******************************************************************** > "Mircea Neacsu" <mircea@nowhere.net> wrote: > > Having seen the other replies to this post may I ask a different > > question: how would you power such a structure... > > I'm not the designer of this ocean cell system. My guess is ocean current > turbine. Currents, waves, ocean thermal, wind, solarvoltaic, solar thermal, biomass produced onsite,, etc, ... No different from terrarchologies.. > > ...how do you treat residual waters... > > Do you mean sewage? If not, what? Sewage? Process it and use it. Residual? > > ...in short how do you supply it with all the infrastructure > > needed by any sizable human community. >Generally, with lots of creativity and money and more money. > Ask more specific questions and perhaps I or someone here can take a stab at > how it might be accomplished. Where to get the money? :^) Marine architecture is way cool, but this particular website/project disapointed me with it's lack of anything but some renderings. The idea of self-contained semi-fixed location structures on a very large scale is as open to creative discussion as the ocean is wide. I like the multi-hex grid system for strength and natural geometric properties. You can build them in all kinds of layouts, and the hex islands can be laid out in mixed scales. It's a very modular surface topography. I'd make them so they floated, and attach them to each other with energy collecting hydraulic couplings. The hexes would constantly be pushing and pulling on one another. Inescabably, so the idea is to take advantage of the energy being transfered from one to the other. There is a huge amount of energy that could be absorbed in a very large structure this way. Of course, I don't have any of these couplings laying around, or even know what they'd look like. I just know there would be a huge tension/compression show going on. Especially in the winter storms. I see these things being built in the near future for agriculture. Kelp, oysters, you name it. Ocean thermal energy is even more available in deep water, and the technology has been "played with" for quite a few years in Hawaii. The idea is to take cold water from deeeeeep down, and heat exchange it with water from the surface to spin a turbine. The early experiments in Hawaii showed an unexpected benefit; fish loved the cold, clean, nutrient rich water. As a result, there has probably more interest in agri-aqua-cultural experiments. Quite a few have grown into profitable crops. Electricity is so reliable it's looked at as a by-product. The floating bridges of Seattle have shown the practicality of large floating structures. But they're anchored... So the problem as I see it is how do you keep one of these things in place in really deep water (2-3000 ft) without an anchor. When it gets too big, the forces pulling on the anchors would be huge. > Where to get the money? :^) Cults! *laugh* More seriously, I would think a cruiseship company might be a good source. You give them exclusive rights (only their cruiseships can dock at your floating island) and that would give them something unique, exotic, and interesting to pitch their passengers. > Marine architecture is way cool, but this particular > website/project disapointed me with it's lack of > anything but some renderings. I corresponded with the person behind that project and learned that isn't much else to it. However, if I were to "donate" some money to his current project, I could have what he does still have from this one. But I did talk to the person that did the renderings and he was a nice chap. He said there was little he was given to work with and what he was given was from a Filipino engineer that he couldn't remember his name or a way to contact him. It was long ago when he worked on the project so that's understandable. However... I still like the idea .. thus why I started up this thread. ;-) > The idea of self-contained semi-fixed location > structures on a very large scale is as open to > creative discussion as the ocean is wide. That's what I'm hoping we continue to have with this thread. > So the problem as I see it is how do you keep > one of these things in place in really deep water > (2-3000 ft) without an anchor. When it gets too > big, the forces pulling on the anchors would be > huge. Why the need to keep them in one locations? How about using automated sails to just keep them in a general location? Scott Jensen SignatureGot a business question, problem, or dream? Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at... misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated |
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