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Natural Science Forum / Earth Science / Oceanography / July 2005



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14000BC ?

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omeganumber@yahoo.co.uk - 10 Jul 2005 15:10 GMT
Would someone who has the time post any references of an
event(Significant), occuring around 14000BC.

Just curious.

Spud
J. Taylor - 10 Jul 2005 19:31 GMT
> Would someone who has the time post any references of an
> event(Significant), occuring around 14000BC.
>
> Just curious.
>
> Spud

http://www.danbyrnes.com.au/lostworlds/timeline/lwstory16.htm

A very good timeline with reference
spiznet - 10 Jul 2005 20:03 GMT
Wasn't this just about the time that the Atlanteans imported Venusians
to do the hard underground work for them on their island pyramids and
other undersea/underground structures?

This was around the time that the human race got its' permanent pink
slips from Atlantean service, about the time when human history rightly
begins on its own, in earnest.

-Mermark
J. Taylor - 10 Jul 2005 23:02 GMT
> Wasn't this just about the time that the Atlanteans imported Venusians
> to do the hard underground work for them on their island pyramids and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> -Mermark

And I should not have been so quick to post the link I did without
first checking it out.  It is about something which I do not endorse.

JT
Timo von Burg - 10 Jul 2005 20:47 GMT
> Would someone who has the time post any references of an
> event(Significant), occuring around 14000BC.

The paintings of Lascaux:
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/lascaux/en/

Timo
geraldkelleher@hotmail.com - 10 Jul 2005 21:17 GMT
We are really rude and small people compared to our ancestors even with
all great technical achievements and data we have less to offer to our
kids than those people from Lascaux .

Even recent achievements such as  Copernican heliocentricity wither
under our charge and were it not for a few genuine investigators who
are eager to present natural balances of which we shoulder the
responsibility of maintaining,we act as if nature owes us an existence.

Reading that excellent history of Lascaux it is heartening to see that
the caves were closed to allow the damage that occured unwittingly
through human presence to heal itself and things to return to the
pristine condition.Were the same thing to occur with astronomy and the
pristine work of the first heliocentrists from the damage of later and
less careful men.

Somehow it remains as a wish in a world that cares little for the
heritage it inherited and no so badly mangles and I too would have
failed in my responsibilities to represent the work of men whoes
insights are as fresh today as when they first emerged and only later
pretension conceals their  ability,in their own way, to generate the
same wonder as those men of Lascaux.
Nick Maclaren - 11 Jul 2005 11:32 GMT
|> Would someone who has the time post any references of an
|> event(Significant), occuring around 14000BC.

It was the date of the last rational debate on human hairlessness
in sci.anthropology.paleo.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
rick++ - 11 Jul 2005 21:04 GMT
The "global warming" event of around 11,000 years ago
was so drastic theat it reshaped much of the planet and
obliterated much archeological evidence.  Ice sheets melted,
jungles turned into deserts, oceans advanced inland hundreds
of miles, and so on.
Spud - 12 Jul 2005 10:04 GMT
> The "global warming" event of around 11,000 years ago

Specific interest: 16000 years ago
Journal Refs preffered. Thanks

Spud
rick++ - 12 Jul 2005 15:17 GMT
I think the other limited beyond age is that isotopic dating methods
become considerably less reliable beyond this age.  Carbon dating
requires calibration for fluctuations in background source
radioactivity,
probably due to solar radiation fluctuations.  This calibration is
supplied by dendrochronology, but the oldest wood is about 7500 years.
Some dont trust the oldest living wood of about 5000 years.
Spud - 12 Jul 2005 17:58 GMT
>  I think the other limited beyond age is that isotopic dating methods
>  become considerably less reliable beyond this age.  Carbon dating
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  supplied by dendrochronology, but the oldest wood is about 7500 years.
>  Some dont trust the oldest living wood of about 5000 years.

Then the only trusted record would be from ice cores ?

Spud
J. Taylor - 12 Jul 2005 18:21 GMT
> >  I think the other limited beyond age is that isotopic dating methods
> >  become considerably less reliable beyond this age.  Carbon dating
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Spud

Why do you think that?

There is also lake varves

*****
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/dating/dat_varve.html

Varve analysis is the process of counting varves or annually laminated
sediments to determine the rates of change in climate and various
ecosystems. Varves form when glacial advances come in contact with
bodies of water such as lakes. When this process occurs, layers of
sediment form on the floor of the body of water. This technique
provides an opportunity to acquire detailed chronological information
about the composition, displacement, and climate of that region, at
that time. It was first developed by the Swedish scientist Baron de
Geer in 1878.

Varves form distinctive layers. A varve consists of two layers; a thick
light colored layer of silt and fine sand which forms in the spring and
summer and a thin dark colored layer of clay forming in the fall and
winter. Since low temperatures are necessary in delaying the settling
of clay particles, it is assumed that varve formation can occur only in
glacial waters, particularly lakes on the margins of glaciers. The salt
and electrolytes in seawater cause a homogenous mass, preventing the
formation of varves.

Traditionally, when one "counted" varves, it proved to be a fairly
monotonous and tiresome task resulting in much time lost and much
subjectivity due to determining layers. One had to take microscopic
evaluations of the material and form some sort of hypothesis or
interpretation from the shape and thickness of the layers. This
provided inaccurate data because different varve types can cause
mistakes in the algorithm that is used and produce miscounts. For
example, sub-annual laminations can be counted as extra years, and
certain years may not deposit a carbonate layer, which often would not
be counted. Thus, this technique is much criticized for providing
insufficient data to determine such changes.

Significant advances have been made to improve accuracy in determining
varves. Using audio/visual equipped computers and digital video
cameras, differences in hues can be determined and analyzed. Through
such a procedure, accurate counts are made to determine different
layers, which in turn gives varve analysis more credibility. Also, with
the aid of computers and digitally enhanced photography, content and
classification are accurate and efficient.
rick++ - 13 Jul 2005 14:51 GMT
Few lakes survived intact across the interglacial boundaries.
The glaciers created the US Great Lakes.
The US West was covered by huge lakes during the
(e.g. Bonnieville) dueing the last glaciation which have
all but disappeared.  Ditto for most of the world.
J. Taylor - 12 Jul 2005 18:39 GMT
> >  I think the other limited beyond age is that isotopic dating methods
> >  become considerably less reliable beyond this age.  Carbon dating
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Spud

Here is something else you might want to explore

Relative Dating
http://www.gpc.edu/~pgore/geology/historical_lab/relativedating.htm

Most people whom have a problem with all the various dating methods
tend to have a particular conclusion in mind, which requires they
exclude any evidence which does not support it.
Spud - 12 Jul 2005 20:33 GMT
<snip>

> Here is something else you might want to explore
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> tend to have a particular conclusion in mind, which requires they
> exclude any evidence which does not support it.

Thanks for the link can you suggest a journal ref site
eg similar to arXiv.org for a search.

Spud
Daryl Krupa - 14 Jul 2005 02:21 GMT
> I think the other limited beyond age is that isotopic dating methods
> become considerably less reliable beyond this age.  Carbon dating
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> supplied by dendrochronology, but the oldest wood is about 7500 years.
> Some dont trust the oldest living wood of about 5000 years.

 Your information is out-of-date.

 The calibration curve is really quite detailed, as you can
see here (please be advised that the calibration has recently
been extended to about 25,000 years ago by reference to
stalactites and such, and that the new standard is called
INTCAL04):

http://www.radiocarbon.org/Journal/v40n3/editorial.html

You can play with calibration yourself, here:

http://www.calpal-online.de/

 And re: sea level rise 11,000 years ago:
 11,000 years ago, sea level rise was halfway up from its
glacial-time lowstand; whatever happened 11,000 years ago
hardly shows up as a blip on the graph:

http://earth.usc.edu/geol150/evolution/images/holocene/sea%20level%20composit.gif

 The rise was quite rapid in the beginning, slowing as the
continental ice sheets in Europe and North America were
depleted, but there was no sudden and massive sea-level-rise
11,000 years ago.

 Here are a couple of curves;
the Barbados record is the classic record for global ("eustatic")
sea level change, and the local curve for Galveston Bay (Texas)
is given for comparison:

http://southport.jpl.nasa.gov/nrc/fig5.2.gif

 So, where do you see a sudden and massive rise in sea level
at the 11,000-years-ago mark?

-
Daryl Krupa
Daryl Krupa - 14 Jul 2005 02:27 GMT
> Would someone who has the time post any references of an
> event(Significant), occuring around 14000BC.
>
> Just curious.

 Spud:
 At about that time, it became possible to walk from
South Africa to Tierra del Fuego without getting one's
feet wet (except in river crossings), for the first time
in about 10,000 years.
 I.e., there was both a land bridge between Siberia
and Alaska, and a gap between the Laurentide Ice Sheet
and the Rocky Mountains.
 Ergo, migration from the Old World to the New World
could resume.

-
Daryl Krupa
 
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