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Natural Science Forum / Earth Science / Oceanography / March 2007



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Climate change kills marine life

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simple_language@yahoo.com - 17 Feb 2007 15:50 GMT
source: http://tinyurl.com/2wnjtv
February 18, 2007

Unprecedented changes to ocean currents are having a devastating
effect on finely balanced marine ecosystems, scientists meeting in the
US have warned.

Off the west coast of the United States, the disruption has led to the
death of huge numbers of sea animals including crabs, salmon and tens
of thousands of birds.

Similar ecosystem upheaval has been recorded in other parts of the
world, particularly South America and Africa.

Early evidence suggests that global warming is driving the changes by
throwing previously predictable seasonal winds out of kilter.

The effects appear to be consistent with what has been predicted by
climate change models, say scientists.

Experts at the annual meeting of the American Association for the
Advancement of Science in San Francisco described two extraordinary
linked events in 2005 and 2006.

The first occurred when a nutrient-rich ocean current that normally
appears off northern California and Oregon in spring was delayed by a
month.

This led to a loss of phytoplankton, the microscopic plant organisms
that form the vital base of the ocean ecosystem and upon which larger
animals depend for food.

Salmon, which normally take to the sea at this time, starved. The
effects rippled up through the food web as predators, including many
sea birds, went hungry and died.

The following year the west coast current came back with a vengeance,
producing an upwelling of nutrient-rich water twice as strong as the
average recorded for several previous years.

Phytoplankton bloomed to levels not seen before, turning the sea to
green-brown soup. They then died and sank, causing oxygen levels in
the water to plummet virtually to zero.

The result was a "dead zone" in which nothing could survive.
Scientists conducting a submarine survey found dead crabs and marine
worms scattered across the ocean floor, and no sign of any fish.

The knock-on effects were once again disastrous for sea birds which
relied on the sea creatures for food. Huge numbers of dead birds were
washed up on the shores.

The 2006 dead zone, which remained for nearly 17 weeks, was three
times bigger than any seen in the region before, said Dr Francis Chan,
from Oregon State University in Corvallis.

He said: "It grew to an area the size of the state of Ohio and lasted
much longer than we thought would be possible, from something that we
tracked day to day to months on end.

"It went from a low oxygen system to a no oxygen system. This had a
dramatic effect on marine life."

Dr Julia Parrish, from the University of Washington in Seattle, said
there were "many spikes" in sea bird mortality during 2005 and 2006.

"Beaches were literally littered with the bodies of dead sea birds,"
she told the meeting. "Tens of thousands of additional birds were
washing up on the shore."

Many of the starving birds had also been unable to breed, she said.

Seasonal winds blowing across the sea affect ocean currents by pushing
away surface water, which is then replaced by colder water from below.

Warmer land temperatures resulted in higher pressures and stronger
winds, which in turn had an impact on currents, said the scientists.

Normally these effects were predictable, but recently the system had
become unstable and volatile - a pattern that mirrored climate change
models.

Professor Jane Lubchenco, from Oregon State University, said: "Wild
fluctuations in the intensity of ocean upwellings are wreaking havoc
with the ecosystems of the west coast.

"We're seeing extreme distortions on both sides of the norm. This is a
system that is out of kilter. It's fluctuating rapidly."

Up to five decades of data had shown that the events were
"unprecedented in this ecosystem", she said.

She pointed out that similar ocean current disruption had been seen in
other regions of the world, particularly Peru, Chile and parts of
Africa.

"The ultimate causes of the changes are unknown," Professor Lubchenco
added. "We finger the winds as the important culprit, but we do not
know definitively why these winds are changing. We do know that the
changes are what would be expected under climate change scenarios, and
climate change is a viable hypothesis... We should expect more
surprises."

Findings related to the 2005 event were reported in the online version
of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Anthony Matonak - 17 Feb 2007 17:12 GMT
> source: http://tinyurl.com/2wnjtv
...
> Up to five decades of data had shown that the events were
> "unprecedented in this ecosystem", she said.
...
> "The ultimate causes of the changes are unknown," Professor Lubchenco
> added.

Hmm, 50 years of data out of the billions of years the plant has
been around. It doesn't sound like a long enough period to be able
to make reliable predictions. Then again, they flatly admit they
don't know what is the cause.

Anthony
Ejo - 17 Feb 2007 17:39 GMT
On Feb 17, 6:12 pm, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> simple_langu...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > source:http://tinyurl.com/2wnjtv
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Anthony

The provided link is not providing a reference to scientific
literature, instead we are dealing with the interpretation of one or
more journalists. This discussion and its conclusions are therefore
difficult to understand.

Ejo
Peter B. P. - 18 Feb 2007 03:49 GMT
> On Feb 17, 6:12 pm, Anthony Matonak
> <anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Ejo

Agreed. I have little faith in journalists and their supposed ability to
judge scientific facts iwhtout spinning and blowing things out of
proportion.

Signature

regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

Joe Fischer - 17 Feb 2007 18:56 GMT
>> source: http://tinyurl.com/2wnjtv
>> Up to five decades of data had shown that the events were
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>don't know what is the cause.
>Anthony

         Yes, those pesky winds, you just can't depend on them
blowing the same direction on every day of the year, and
what else could possible spell doom besides global warming.

Joe Fischer
kT - 17 Feb 2007 19:25 GMT
>>> source: http://tinyurl.com/2wnjtv
>>> Up to five decades of data had shown that the events were
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> blowing the same direction on every day of the year, and
> what else could possible spell doom besides global warming.

Yes, energy has nothing to do with winds.

Prevailing winds are a myth, a mass hallucination.

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Eeyore - 17 Feb 2007 19:32 GMT
> >           Yes, those pesky winds, you just can't depend on them
> > blowing the same direction on every day of the year, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Prevailing winds are a myth, a mass hallucination.

Just how big an idiot are you ?

Graham
lkgeo1 - 17 Feb 2007 21:12 GMT
On Feb 17, 2:32?pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Just how big an idiot are you ?
>
> Graham

ALMOST AS BIG AS YOU. HOWEVER, THERE WILL "NEVER" BE ONE AS BIG AS
YOU . NEVER !
Eeyore - 17 Feb 2007 22:33 GMT
> > Just how big an idiot are you ?
> >
> > Graham
>
> ALMOST AS BIG AS YOU. HOWEVER, THERE WILL "NEVER" BE ONE AS BIG AS YOU . NEVER
> !

Awww. Poor baby.

I suppose you just can't bear to think there won't ever be a hydrogen economy.

Graham
Peter B. P. - 18 Feb 2007 03:49 GMT
> > Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Just how big
> > an idiot are you ? > > Graham
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Graham

Not true, there will be, at least when we stary mining the gas gigants.
Or more likely, that will be a He3 economy.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
Eeyore - 18 Feb 2007 06:52 GMT
> > > Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Just how big
> > > an idiot are you ? > > Graham
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Not true, there will be, at least when we stary mining the gas gigants.
> Or more likely, that will be a He3 economy.

Sorry to disappoint you but there's not going to be any interstellar mining.

Graham
kT - 18 Feb 2007 07:03 GMT
>>> I suppose you just can't bear to think there won't ever be a hydrogen
>>> economy.

We've already got one. It's a star called the sun.

>> Not true, there will be, at least when we stary mining the gas gigants.

Totally crackpot.

>> Or more likely, that will be a He3 economy.

Mildly cranky.

> Sorry to disappoint you but there's not going to be any interstellar mining.

No, but interplanetary mining is inevitable. Simple regolith scooping
for spacecraft shielding will do. We've already brought back rocks from
the moon. We want to solve the problems you claim don't exist, and since
they appear to be intractable now, our only recourse is to embark on an
ambitious program of scientific research and technology development, and
thus space is the obvious answer, there being so much of it and all.

You need to get out on the ocean every once and a while.

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Eeyore - 18 Feb 2007 07:16 GMT
> >>> I suppose you just can't bear to think there won't ever be a hydrogen
> >>> economy.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Totally crackpot.

That wasn't me.

> >> Or more likely, that will be a He3 economy.
>
> Mildly cranky.

Can you learnt to trim headers properly please so thjat they correctly attribute
who said what  ?

> > Sorry to disappoint you but there's not going to be any interstellar mining.
>
> No, but interplanetary mining is inevitable

It's never going to happen. Anyone with the tiniest grasp of science and how to
apply it can see that.

Graham
kT - 18 Feb 2007 07:26 GMT
>>>>> I suppose you just can't bear to think there won't ever be a hydrogen
>>>>> economy.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> That wasn't me.

I don't know who you are and I don't care.

>>>> Or more likely, that will be a He3 economy.

>> Mildly cranky.
>
> Can you learnt to trim headers properly please so thjat they correctly attribute
> who said what  ?

I'm commenting on what was said, not who said it.

>>> Sorry to disappoint you but there's not going to be any interstellar mining.

>> No, but interplanetary mining is inevitable
>
> It's never going to happen. Anyone with the tiniest grasp of science and how to
> apply it can see that.

Never is an aweful long time. Didn't mommy tell you to never say never.

Clearly interplanetary mining has already occurred. Viking already mined
some soil and dumped it into the laboratory, where it was then analyzed.

We've already returned rocks from the moon, and captured interstellar
dust grains. What is it exactly that you find wrong with demonstration?

With an estimated 9 billion souls on this planet in the not too distant
future, something has got to happen. Clearly space is the objective.

Or do you plan on just living out your years in your clapboard condo.

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Peter B. P. - 18 Feb 2007 08:21 GMT
> > >>> I suppose you just can't bear to think there won't ever be a
> > >>> hydrogen economy.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> That wasn't me.

Don't mind Elifirtz, he's just the local equivalent of the village
idiot.

> > >> Or more likely, that will be a He3 economy.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Graham

The only thing that can stop humanity spreading across space is a
supernova or a gamma flash in close proximity to us.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
Eeyore - 18 Feb 2007 08:42 GMT
> > > >>> I suppose you just can't bear to think there won't ever be a
> > > >>> hydrogen economy.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> The only thing that can stop humanity spreading across space is a
> supernova or a gamma flash in close proximity to us.

Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with global warming look
like a walk in the park.

Those who talk of factories on the moon make me laugh. I doubt they know very
much about factories on Earth to be honest.

Graham
Peter B. P. - 18 Feb 2007 12:24 GMT
> Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with global warming look
> like a walk in the park.
>
> Those who talk of factories on the moon make me laugh. I doubt they know very
> much about factories on Earth to be honest.

In 1901, one of the Wrigt brothers said the following:

"Not in a thousand years will man every fly!".

He was wrong.

So will you be. Barring cosmic mishaps, humanity WILL conquer the solar
system, and then the stars int time.

Signature

regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

Eeyore - 18 Feb 2007 13:53 GMT
> > Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with global warming look
> > like a walk in the park.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> So will you be. Barring cosmic mishaps, humanity WILL conquer the solar
> system, and then the stars int time.

There is not remotely any comparison betwen your A and B.

Graham
Peter B. P. - 18 Feb 2007 23:32 GMT
> > Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote: > "Peter B. P."
> > wrote: > > Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Graham

Whatever. History will prove me right.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
kT - 18 Feb 2007 15:39 GMT
>> Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with global warming look
>> like a walk in the park.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> So will you be. Barring cosmic mishaps, humanity WILL conquer the solar
> system, and then the stars int time.

It's all about conquest, isn't it.

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Eeyore - 18 Feb 2007 15:55 GMT
> >> Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with global warming look
> >> like a walk in the park.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> It's all about conquest, isn't it.

It's the American way.

Graham
kT - 18 Feb 2007 16:00 GMT
>>>> Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with global warming look
>>>> like a walk in the park.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> It's the American way.

And that's why the world hates you.

You pass off fascism as libertarianism. What a crock of sh.t.

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Eeyore - 18 Feb 2007 19:12 GMT
> >>>> Or the energy and materials needed ! It makes dealing with global warming look
> >>>> like a walk in the park.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> And that's why the world hates you.

I'm not American.

> You pass off fascism as libertarianism. What a crock of sh.t.

Haven't you ever heard of sarcasm ?

Graham
Peter B. P. - 18 Feb 2007 23:32 GMT
> Eeyore wrote: > > kT wrote: > >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> "Peter B. P." wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> You pass off fascism as libertarianism. What a crock of sh.t.

Well, yes you are, since you cann't understand the difference. Another
proof that your brain is on the fritz, 'Fritz.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
kT - 18 Feb 2007 23:34 GMT
>> Eeyore wrote: > > kT wrote: > >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> Eeyore
>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> "Peter B. P." wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Well, yes you are, since you cann't understand the difference. Another
> proof that your brain is on the fritz, 'Fritz.

I'm just going by your words. You've expressed your desire to hate and
commit violence with almost every post. That's fascism in my book.

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kwag7693@hotmail.com - 18 Feb 2007 23:42 GMT
> >> Eeyore wrote: > > kT wrote: > >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> Eeyore
> >> <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> "Peter B. P." wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I'm just going by your words. You've expressed your desire to hate and
> commit violence with almost every post. That's fascism in my book.

Then your book is full of wrong, idiosyncratic definitions.
kT - 18 Feb 2007 23:45 GMT
>>>> Eeyore wrote: > > kT wrote: > >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> Eeyore
>>>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> "Peter B. P." wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Then your book is full of wrong, idiosyncratic definitions.

Yes, all definitions are static. Language never evolves.

It's the fascist way.

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Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 00:00 GMT
> kwag7693@hotmail.com wrote: > On Feb 18, 6:34 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org>
> wrote: >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Yes, all definitions are static. Language never evolves.

Your silly redefinitions of select words to suit your own agenda does
not constitute linguistic evolution.

However, it shows your simpleminded arrogance plainly for all to see.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
kT - 19 Feb 2007 00:01 GMT
>> kwag7693@hotmail.com wrote: > On Feb 18, 6:34 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org>
>> wrote: >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> However, it shows your simpleminded arrogance plainly for all to see.

And your posts are archived too. I could dig some up, but it would be a
waste of time, and only confirm the obvious, that you are a closed
fascist masquerading as a libertarian in Denmark.

Your fellow countrymen must be so proud.

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Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 00:09 GMT
> >> kwag7693@hotmail.com wrote: > On Feb 18, 6:34 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org>
> >> wrote: >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> waste of time, and only confirm the obvious, that you are a closed
> fascist masquerading as a libertarian in Denmark.

Please dig them up, and let us see if you are lying or not. But I know
you are lying. It is your very nature.

And I'm still not a fascist, but a dumbfuck shithead like you wouldn't
possibly know the difference between fascmism and libertarianism.

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regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

kT - 19 Feb 2007 00:11 GMT
>>>> kwag7693@hotmail.com wrote: > On Feb 18, 6:34 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org>
>>>> wrote: >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Please dig them up, and let us see if you are lying or not. But I know
> you are lying. It is your very nature.

"If guns kill". It's at the bottom of every post.

> And I'm still not a fascist, but a dumbfuck shithead like you wouldn't
> possibly know the difference between fascmism and libertarianism.

Libertarians are fascists.

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kwag7693@hotmail.com - 19 Feb 2007 00:20 GMT
> >>>> kwag7...@hotmail.com wrote: > On Feb 18, 6:34 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org>
> >>>> wrote: >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Libertarians are fascists.

You are having some real difficulties with political terminology; I'd
suggest an introductory text.
kT - 19 Feb 2007 00:29 GMT
>>>>>> kwag7...@hotmail.com wrote: > On Feb 18, 6:34 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org>
>>>>>> wrote: >> Peter B. P. wrote: >>> kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> You are having some real difficulties with political terminology; I'd
> suggest an introductory text.

I'm only interested in science.

Since your objections to carbon dioxide induced global warming and
climate change have no basis in science, then your objections to the
science of climate change and global warming must be political.

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kwag7693@hotmail.com - 19 Feb 2007 00:37 GMT
> I'm only interested in science.

An interest in understanding the terms you use could be helpful too.
Ethics and politics wouldn't hurt either.  Art is nice.  You shouldn't
restrict yourself like that.

> Since your objections to carbon dioxide induced global warming and
> climate change have no basis in science, then your objections to the
> science of climate change and global warming must be political.

In part they are, in part you haven't proved your case.  Put those
together and they make an exceedingly good reason not to take your
conclusions at face value.
Exxon Liars & Thieves - 19 Feb 2007 00:43 GMT
Definition of "Libertarianism" = a Corporate Organized Crime Front
helping OILY INC rule the world, = FASCISM

Here's the crime record  of one vice-president candidate of the
"Libertarian Exxon Front Party"

Instead of arguing, the links to the record of his funders is posted:
Koch Industries called Organized Crime on National TV by brother Bill
Koch. These are the people you should know and decide that they are
your preferred choice to bring you information by their hirlings like
"Bawana".

http://snipurl.com/pk51
Google Results for "Charles G. Koch Summer Fellows" CATO Institute.

http://snipurl.com/pk5l
Google Results 1 - 100 of about 535 for Koch Interns Cato Institute,
Heritage, Hudson Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute.

http://snipurl.com/pk57
Google Results 1 - 100 of about 191 for "Koch Industries" "Organized
Crime".

http://snipurl.com/pk5f
Google Results 1 - 100 of about 679 for Killer Koch Industries,
Smalley.

News
Also, The Koch Pipeline Co., LP, another subsidiary of Koch
Industries, had agreed to pay some $35 million in fines and penalties
for violations of the ...
http://waternet.com/news.asp?mode=4&N_ID=14430 - 16k

   News
   Koch hit with record Clean Water Act fine. HOUSTON - The Koch
Pipeline Co., ... of Koch Industries, Inc. in Wichita, KS, has agreed
to pay some $35 million ...
   http://waternet.com/news.asp?mode=4&N_ID=11149 - 16k

Forbes.com: Forbes Faces: The Koch Brothers
In September 1999, Koch Industries paid $8 million in damages after
a ... It was forced to pay a $35 million settlement for 300 separate
oil spills in six ...
http://www.forbes.com/2001/01/04/0104faces.html - 27k

   Forbes.com: Forbes World's Richest People 2001
   Brothers Charles and David run Koch Industries, the $35 billion
oil ... mishap in its Corpus Christi refinery; the company agreed to
pay a $20 million fine. ...
   http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/10/2001/LIR.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=200
1&passListType=Person&am
...
- 70k

StealthPacs.org | Overview of Citizens for a Sound Economy (CSE ...
CSE co-founder David H. Koch is a member of Cato's board of directors.
13 Koch ... of Koch Industries, an oil and gas company that paid a $35
million fine in ...
http://www.stealthpacs.org/profile.cfm?Org_ID=162 - 31k

July/August 2002 - Sierra Magazine - Sierra Club
In January, Koch Industries agreed to pay about $35 million for
violations of the Clean ... but also to pay a $1 million fine for air-
pollution violations. ...
http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200207/thinktank.asp - 41k

David H. Koch - SourceWatch
Koch Industries received a $30000000.00 criminal fine in March
2000: ... for more than 300 oil spills in five states, prompting a
penalty of $35 million. ...
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_H._Koch - 14k

The Center for Public Integrity
The owners of Koch Industries, the nation's second wealthiest
privately owned business, the brothers were recently given a $35
million federal fine in ...
http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=508 - 35k

   The Center for Public Integrity
   The brothers own Koch Industries, the nation's second wealthiest
privately owned business, which was recently given a $35 million
federal fine in connection ...
   http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=537 - 61k
   [ More results from www.publicintegrity.org ]

Endgame Directory of Transnational Corporations
A federal judge in Austin, TX, has approved a record $35 million civil
fine against Kansas-based Koch Industries, ending lawsuits involving
about 300 oil ...
http://www.endgame.org/dtc/k.html - 47k

EMS Pipeline Services - Regulatory Compliance
Those who fail to comply face penalties, which are already reaching
record highs, including a $35 million fine for Koch Industries. ...
http://www.emspipeline.net/compliance/index.asp - 19k

The Clear and Present Danger of the Sociopathic Insanity of David ...
The owners of KOCH INDUSTRIES, the nation's second wealthiest
privately owned business, the brothers were recently given a $35
million federal fine in ...
http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Killer_David_Koch.html - 71k

   Organized Crime Ring - Killer Koch's Citizens for a Sound Economy
   Not surprisingly, the industry has lavished more than $440 million
over the past six ... and Koch and Ashcroft settled the lawsuit for a
$20 million fine, ...
   http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/CSE_Organized_Crime.html - 67k

Environmental Defense - Press Release: Environmental Defense Says ...
Today's proposed fine compares unfavorably to the $35 million fine the
US Environmental Protection Agency levied against Koch Industries,
Inc. in January of ...
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/pressrelease.cfm?ContentID=1230 -
23k
Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 01:03 GMT
> Definition of "Libertarianism" = a Corporate Organized Crime Front
> helping OILY INC rule the world, = FASCISM
>
> Here's the crime record  of one vice-president candidate of the
> "Libertarian Exxon Front Party"

Here's a wake up call for you. You really need to get your facts
straight:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/long/long15.html

"In short, the 19th-century libertarians observed the rise of the
various tendencies that would come together to make fascism –
militarism, corporatism, regimentation, nationalist chauvinism,
plutocracy in populist guise, the call for "strong leaders" and
"national greatness," the glorification of conflict over commerce and of
brute force over intellect – and they bitterly opposed the whole
package."

http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/000258.html

"...as I explained our opposition to the military-industrial complex and
our true free market position as against corporatism which raises up
"businessmen" who know how to play politics rather than how to meet the
needs of consumers."

http://blog.mises.org/archives/003537.asp

"Bush and Oil: Partners in Corporatism"

http://www.mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/3_2/3_2_4.pdf

And lots more on Lew Rockwell, mises.org and so on.

Stop posting your usual bullshit, and actually learn something about
libertarianismbefor eyou talk about it. Libertarians are NOT
CORPORATIST.

Signature

regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

Exxon Liars & Thieves - 19 Feb 2007 01:13 GMT
> > Definition of "Libertarianism" = a Corporate Organized Crime Front
> > helping OILY INC rule the world, = FASCISM
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Here's a wake up call for you. You really need to get your facts
> straight:

> Stop posting your usual bullshit, and actually learn something about
> libertarianismbefor eyou talk about it. Libertarians are NOT
> CORPORATIST.

Definition of "Libertarianism" = a Corporate Organized Crime Front
helping OILY INC rule the world, = FASCISM

Instead of arguing, the links to the record of his funders is posted:
Koch Industries called Organized Crime on National TV by brother Bill
Koch. These are the people you should know and decide that they are
your preferred choice to bring you information by their hirlings like
"Bawana".

http://snipurl.com/pk51
Google Results for "Charles G. Koch Summer Fellows" CATO Institute.

http://snipurl.com/pk5l
Google Results 1 - 100 of about 535 for Koch Interns Cato Institute,
Heritage, Hudson Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute.

http://snipurl.com/pk57
Google Results 1 - 100 of about 191 for "Koch Industries" "Organized
Crime".

http://snipurl.com/pk5f
Google Results 1 - 100 of about 679 for Killer Koch Industries,
Smalley.

News
Also, The Koch Pipeline Co., LP, another subsidiary of Koch
Industries, had agreed to pay some $35 million in fines and penalties
for violations of the ...
http://waternet.com/news.asp?mode=4&N_ID=14430 - 16k

   News
   Koch hit with record Clean Water Act fine. HOUSTON - The Koch
Pipeline Co., ... of Koch Industries, Inc. in Wichita, KS, has agreed
to pay some $35 million ...
   http://waternet.com/news.asp?mode=4&N_ID=11149 - 16k

Forbes.com: Forbes Faces: The Koch Brothers
In September 1999, Koch Industries paid $8 million in damages after
a ... It was forced to pay a $35 million settlement for 300 separate
oil spills in six ...
http://www.forbes.com/2001/01/04/0104faces.html - 27k

   Forbes.com: Forbes World's Richest People 2001
   Brothers Charles and David run Koch Industries, the $35 billion
oil ... mishap in its Corpus Christi refinery; the company agreed to
pay a $20 million fine. ...
   http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/10/2001/LIR.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=200
1&passListType=Person&am
...
- 70k

StealthPacs.org | Overview of Citizens for a Sound Economy (CSE ...
CSE co-founder David H. Koch is a member of Cato's board of directors.
13 Koch ... of Koch Industries, an oil and gas company that paid a $35
million fine in ...
http://www.stealthpacs.org/profile.cfm?Org_ID=162 - 31k

July/August 2002 - Sierra Magazine - Sierra Club
In January, Koch Industries agreed to pay about $35 million for
violations of the Clean ... but also to pay a $1 million fine for air-
pollution violations. ...
http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200207/thinktank.asp - 41k

David H. Koch - SourceWatch
Koch Industries received a $30000000.00 criminal fine in March
2000: ... for more than 300 oil spills in five states, prompting a
penalty of $35 million. ...
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_H._Koch - 14k

The Center for Public Integrity
The owners of Koch Industries, the nation's second wealthiest
privately owned business, the brothers were recently given a $35
million federal fine in ...
http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=508 - 35k

   The Center for Public Integrity
   The brothers own Koch Industries, the nation's second wealthiest
privately owned business, which was recently given a $35 million
federal fine in connection ...
   http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=537 - 61k
   [ More results from www.publicintegrity.org ]

Endgame Directory of Transnational Corporations
A federal judge in Austin, TX, has approved a record $35 million civil
fine against Kansas-based Koch Industries, ending lawsuits involving
about 300 oil ...
http://www.endgame.org/dtc/k.html - 47k

EMS Pipeline Services - Regulatory Compliance
Those who fail to comply face penalties, which are already reaching
record highs, including a $35 million fine for Koch Industries. ...
http://www.emspipeline.net/compliance/index.asp - 19k

The Clear and Present Danger of the Sociopathic Insanity of David ...
The owners of KOCH INDUSTRIES, the nation's second wealthiest
privately owned business, the brothers were recently given a $35
million federal fine in ...
http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Killer_David_Koch.html - 71k

   Organized Crime Ring - Killer Koch's Citizens for a Sound Economy
   Not surprisingly, the industry has lavished more than $440 million
over the past six ... and Koch and Ashcroft settled the lawsuit for a
$20 million fine, ...
   http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/CSE_Organized_Crime.html - 67k

Environmental Defense - Press Release: Environmental Defense Says ...
Today's proposed fine compares unfavorably to the $35 million fine the
US Environmental Protection Agency levied against Koch Industries,
Inc. in January of ...
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/pressrelease.cfm?ContentID=1230 -
23k
Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 01:27 GMT
> > > Definition of "Libertarianism" = a Corporate Organized Crime Front
> > > helping OILY INC rule the world, = FASCISM
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Definition of "Libertarianism" = a Corporate Organized Crime Front
> helping OILY INC rule the world, = FASCISM

since you snipped my references to the contrary away, i'll give you
another chance to read them.

Here's a wake up call for you. You really need to get your facts
straight:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/long/long15.html

"In short, the 19th-century libertarians observed the rise of the
various tendencies that would come together to make fascism –
militarism, corporatism, regimentation, nationalist chauvinism,
plutocracy in populist guise, the call for "strong leaders" and
"national greatness," the glorification of conflict over commerce and of
brute force over intellect – and they bitterly opposed the whole
package."

http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/000258.html

"...as I explained our opposition to the military-industrial complex and
our true free market position as against corporatism which raises up
"businessmen" who know how to play politics rather than how to meet the
needs of consumers."

http://blog.mises.org/archives/003537.asp

"Bush and Oil: Partners in Corporatism"

http://www.mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/3_2/3_2_4.pdf

And lots more on Lew Rockwell, mises.org and so on.

Stop posting your usual bullshit, and actually learn something about
libertarianismbefor eyou talk about it. Libertarians are NOT
CORPORATIST.

Signature

regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

kT - 19 Feb 2007 00:43 GMT
>> I'm only interested in science.
>
> An interest in understanding the terms you use could be helpful too.
> Ethics and politics wouldn't hurt either.  Art is nice.  You shouldn't
> restrict yourself like that.

They aren't all that helpful when discussing the evidence, but if you'd
like to peruse some artistic science there is always :

http://www.globalwarmingart.com

>> Since your objections to carbon dioxide induced global warming and
>> climate change have no basis in science, then your objections to the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> together and they make an exceedingly good reason not to take your
> conclusions at face value.

One doesn't prove a theory, one proves a theorem.

The theory has been more than adequately demonstrated, however for
political reasons you feel the need to further your agenda with
disinformation and smearing tactics very similar to fascism.

That's how scientific illiterates like you operate.

Signature

Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html

Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 00:48 GMT
> >>> And I'm still not a fascist, but a dumbfuck shithead like you wouldn't
> >>> possibly know the difference between fascmism and libertarianism.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> climate change have no basis in science, then your objections to the
> science of climate change and global warming must be political.

You're in broken record mode.

Take your meds.

Signature

regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog , http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

Retief - 26 Feb 2007 05:35 GMT
>I'm only interested in science.

You mispelled "politics" as "science"...

>Since your objections to carbon dioxide induced global warming and
>climate change have no basis in science, then your objections to the
>science of climate change and global warming must be political.

Here is an example of you "no basis in science" claim:

http://uploader.wuerzburg.de/mm-physik/klima/artefact.htm

The author notes that CO2 doubling provides no significant change in
transmission for the 15 um band, when in competition with water.  That
is, a doubling of CO2 results in a 0.054 W/m^2 increase in power
absorption (which is a far cry from the 4 W/m^2 the IPCC claims).

Perhaps you'd like to present your proof of AGW?

Retief
VistaJustWorks - 26 Feb 2007 07:34 GMT
"Retief" <nospam@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> You mispelled "politics" as "science"...

 No, clearly he didn't.  But we do see you trying to claim that science is
politics.

 Scum sucking Libertarians like Retief are like that, confusing their own
political liedeologies with reality.

 What do the consensus of scientists say on this matter....

The conclusions in this statement reflect the scientific
consensus represented by, for example, the
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and the joint
National Academies' statement.

For more information, see the AAAS Global Climate-Change
Resources page.

American Association for the Advancement of Science
AAAS Board Releases New Statement on Climate Change
---------------------------------------------------
- 18 February 2007 -

The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change
caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a
growing threat to society. Accumulating data from across
the globe reveal a wide array of effects: rapidly
melting glaciers, destabilization of major ice sheets,
increases in extreme weather, rising sea level, shifts
in species ranges, and more. The pace of change and the
evidence of harm have increased markedly over the last
five years. The time to control greenhouse gas emissions
is now.

The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, a
critical greenhouse gas, is higher than it has been for
at least 650,000 years. The average temperature of the
Earth is heading for levels not experienced for millions
of years. Scientific predictions of the impacts of
increasing atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse
gases from fossil fuels and deforestation match observed
changes. As expected, intensification of droughts, heat
waves, floods, wildfires, and severe storms is
occurring, with a mounting toll on vulnerable ecosystems
and societies. These events are early warning signs of
even more devastating damage to come, some of which will
be irreversible.

Delaying action to address climate change will increase
the environmental and societal consequences as well as
the costs. The longer we wait to tackle climate change,
the harder and more expensive the task will be.
History provides many examples of society confronting
grave threats by mobilizing knowledge and promoting
innovation. We need an aggressive research, development
and deployment effort to transform the existing and
future energy systems of the world away from
technologies that emit greenhouse gases. Developing
clean energy technologies will provide economic
opportunities and ensure future energy supplies.
In addition to rapidly reducing greenhouse gas
emissions, it is essential that we develop strategies to
adapt to ongoing changes and make communities more
resilient to future changes.

The growing torrent of information presents a clear
message: we are already experiencing global climate
change. It is time to muster the political will for
concerted action. Stronger leadership at all levels is
needed. The time is now. We must rise to the challenge.
We owe this to future generations.

--
The American Association for the Advancement of Science,
"Triple A-S" (AAAS), is an international non-profit organization dedicated
to advancing science around the world by serving as an educator, leader,
spokesperson and professional association. In addition to organizing
membership activities, AAAS publishes the journal Science, as well as many
scientific newsletters, books and reports, and spearheads programs that
raise the bar of understanding for science worldwide.
Arnold Walker - 26 Feb 2007 08:11 GMT
> "Retief" <nospam@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> You mispelled "politics" as "science"...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  Scum sucking Libertarians like Retief are like that, confusing their own
> political liedeologies with reality.
Actually the IPCC is the political summary for UN leaders on the longer
science report that won't be out
for another 1 and half months.

>  What do the consensus of scientists say on this matter....
That there are some alarmist overstating thier findings for political
purposes for starts.
Gee I wonder where they could have got that.....could it be that Al Gore did
a book and movie
predicting as many yards of tidal rise as scienctist did in inches.
Each page of the IPCC equals to summary of a hundred pages in the full
science report.

> The conclusions in this statement reflect the scientific
> consensus represented by, for example, the
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> scientific newsletters, books and reports, and spearheads programs that
> raise the bar of understanding for science worldwide.
VistaJustWorks - 26 Feb 2007 08:19 GMT
> Actually the IPCC is the political summary for UN leaders on the longer
> science report that won't be out
> for another 1 and half months.

 Wrong again Arnold.  The IPCC is the International Panel on Climate
Change, and it's members are people, not a written document.  The panel
consists of over 2,500 members who review the climatalogical literature and
produce a grand meta-analysis of the scientific findings.

 What does the consensus of the worlds scientists say about the matter...

The conclusions in this statement reflect the scientific
consensus represented by, for example, the
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and the joint
National Academies' statement.

For more information, see the AAAS Global Climate-Change
Resources page.

American Association for the Advancement of Science
AAAS Board Releases New Statement on Climate Change
---------------------------------------------------
- 18 February 2007 -

The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change
caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a
growing threat to society. Accumulating data from across
the globe reveal a wide array of effects: rapidly
melting glaciers, destabilization of major ice sheets,
increases in extreme weather, rising sea level, shifts
in species ranges, and more. The pace of change and the
evidence of harm have increased markedly over the last
five years. The time to control greenhouse gas emissions
is now.

The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, a
critical greenhouse gas, is higher than it has been for
at least 650,000 years. The average temperature of the
Earth is heading for levels not experienced for millions
of years. Scientific predictions of the impacts of
increasing atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse
gases from fossil fuels and deforestation match observed
changes. As expected, intensification of droughts, heat
waves, floods, wildfires, and severe storms is
occurring, with a mounting toll on vulnerable ecosystems
and societies. These events are early warning signs of
even more devastating damage to come, some of which will
be irreversible.

Delaying action to address climate change will increase
the environmental and societal consequences as well as
the costs. The longer we wait to tackle climate change,
the harder and more expensive the task will be.
History provides many examples of society confronting
grave threats by mobilizing knowledge and promoting
innovation. We need an aggressive research, development
and deployment effort to transform the existing and
future energy systems of the world away from
technologies that emit greenhouse gases. Developing
clean energy technologies will provide economic
opportunities and ensure future energy supplies.
In addition to rapidly reducing greenhouse gas
emissions, it is essential that we develop strategies to
adapt to ongoing changes and make communities more
resilient to future changes.

The growing torrent of information presents a clear
message: we are already experiencing global climate
change. It is time to muster the political will for
concerted action. Stronger leadership at all levels is
needed. The time is now. We must rise to the challenge.
We owe this to future generations.

--
The American Association for the Advancement of Science,
"Triple A-S" (AAAS), is an international non-profit organization dedicated
to advancing science around the world by serving as an educator, leader,
spokesperson and professional association. In addition to organizing
membership activities, AAAS publishes the journal Science, as well as many
scientific newsletters, books and reports, and spearheads programs that
raise the bar of understanding for science worldwide.
Lloyd - 26 Feb 2007 15:11 GMT
On Feb 26, 3:11 am, "Arnold Walker" <arnoldwal...@consolidated.net>
wrote:

> > "Retief" <nos...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> >> You mispelled "politics" as "science"...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> science report that won't be out
> for another 1 and half months.

Has any IPCC scientist said it does not reflect the actual report?
No.

> >  What do the consensus of scientists say on this matter....
>
> That there are some alarmist overstating thier findings for political
> purposes for starts.

You are lying.

> Gee I wonder where they could have got that.....could it be that Al Gore did
> a book and movie
> predicting as many yards of tidal rise as scienctist did in inches.
> Each page of the IPCC equals to summary of a hundred pages in the full
> science report.

Again, has any IPCC scientist said the summary is incorrect?  No.
Arnold Walker - 26 Feb 2007 15:48 GMT
> On Feb 26, 3:11 am, "Arnold Walker" <arnoldwal...@consolidated.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Again, has any IPCC scientist said the summary is incorrect?  No.
Mainly because most of them are not scientist in the first place.
They just compiled info from a science report.
And as to lying you do enorgh for both of us.....
VistaJustWorks - 26 Feb 2007 08:34 GMT
> Mainly because most of them are not scientist in the first place.
> They just compiled info from a science report.
> And as to lying you do enorgh for both of us.....

 Aahahahaha.. You pathetic sh.t licking Liar.

 All of the scientists - and there are well over 2,500 of them, working on
the IPCC reports are scientists.

 You on the other hand are a lying AmeriKKKan dung eater.
Me - 27 Feb 2007 20:10 GMT
>   All of the scientists - and there are well over 2,500 of them, working on
> the IPCC reports are scientists.

Hmmmmmmm, apparently English is your second language....... just about
evey Grade Schooler, can see what is wrong with the above statement.....

Me               so what's your excuse........
VistaJustWorks - 26 Feb 2007 23:15 GMT
"Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote Nothing of consequence

All of the scientists - and there are well over 2,500 of them working on
the IPCC reports - are scientists.
Arnold Walker - 28 Feb 2007 17:17 GMT
> "Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote Nothing of consequence
>
> All of the scientists - and there are well over 2,500 of them working on
> the IPCC reports - are scientists.
No,the 2500 scientist did the science report  that the IPCC is summarizing.
Lloyd - 28 Feb 2007 20:38 GMT
On Feb 28, 12:17 pm, "Arnold Walker" <arnoldwal...@consolidated.net>
wrote:

> > "Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote Nothing of consequence
>
> > All of the scientists - and there are well over 2,500 of them working on
> > the IPCC reports - are scientists.
>
> No,the 2500 scientist did the science report  that the IPCC is summarizing.

The IPCC _is_ the group of scientists, as he tried to tell you.

> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Joe Fischer - 28 Feb 2007 23:57 GMT
>> No,the 2500 scientist did the science report  that the IPCC is summarizing.
>
>The IPCC _is_ the group of scientists, as he tried to tell you.

           Instead of arguments, how about facts.

http://www.ipcc.ch/about/faq/IPCC%20Who%20is%20who.pdf

Joe Fischer         I am not a conservative political party.
Gonna Bust Up Exxon's Crime Ring - 01 Mar 2007 00:28 GMT
> >> No,the 2500 scientist did the science report  that the IPCC is summarizing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Joe Fischer         I am not a conservative political party.

define Libertarianism: anti-social personality, maniac, mental case*,
nutcase*, psycho*, psychotic, schizo, schizoid*,     egocentric,
egoistic, egoistical, egomaniacal, egotistic, egotistical, greedy*,
hog, mean, mercenary, miserly, narcissistic, narrow, narrow-minded,
parsimonious, prejudiced, self-centered, self-indulgent, self-
interested, self-seeking, stingy, ungenerous, acquisitive, avaricious,
avid, close-fisted, eager, envious, esurient, gluttonous, grabby,
grasping, green-eyed*, grudging, hogging, itchy*, jealous, jelly,
keen, mercenary, piggish*, prehensile, rapacious, ravenous, selfish,
swinish*, voracious, yearning
Exxon Liars & Crooks - 28 Feb 2007 23:14 GMT
On Feb 28, 9:17 am, "Arnold Walker" <arnoldwal...@consolidated.net>
wrote:

> > "Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote Nothing of consequence
>
> > All of the scientists - and there are well over 2,500 of them working on
> > the IPCC reports - are scientists.
>
> No,the 2500 scientist did the science report  that the IPCC is summarizing.

define Libertarianism = sociopaths, liars, crooks, thieves,
anarchists, anti-social
Me - 28 Feb 2007 22:50 GMT
> "Me" <Me@shadow.orgs> wrote Nothing of consequence
>
> All of the scientists - and there are well over 2,500 of them working on
> the IPCC reports - are scientists.

So we all now know that you can correctly FIX a Stupid Grammatical
Error, that no Grade Schooler would have made in the first place.

Now if you would be so nice as to define your term "Scientist"....
there hasn't been an actuall "Scientist" in a couple of hundwred
years.  Oh we have all kinds of Climatologist, Geologist, Chemists,
and other of Scientific repute, but the Fields of Science, are now
so broad that no one human can possibly claim to be a "Scientist"

Me        just wondering if your definition is like the rest
            of your Blather......
Retief - 28 Feb 2007 05:01 GMT
>> You mispelled "politics" as "science"...
>
>  No, clearly he didn't.  But we do see you trying to claim that science is
>politics.

Not at all, Scott.  What I'm claiming is that you PRETEND that you are
doing science, when in fact all you are doing is promoting political
views via fraud.

Retief
VistaJustWorks - 27 Feb 2007 08:49 GMT
>>> You mispelled "politics" as "science"...

"VistaJustWorks" <BushIsATraitor@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>  No, clearly he didn't.  But we do see you trying to claim that science
>> is
>>politics.

"Retief" <nospam@invalid.invalid> wrote> Not at all, Scott.

And that statement makes you a liar.

> What I'm claiming is that you PRETEND that you are doing science, when in
> fact all > you are doing is promoting political views via fraud.

 To believe that one would have to believe that all of the worlds
scientists are conspiring against your own personal political liedeology.

 And that would just be insane now wouldn't it, sh.t Licker.
Arnold Walker - 28 Feb 2007 18:49 GMT
>>>> You mispelled "politics" as "science"...
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>  And that would just be insane now wouldn't it, sh.t Licker.
And the lie goes on ....with the insult  comfirming the lie you where
pushing.
Retief - 09 Mar 2007 01:45 GMT
>> What I'm claiming is that you PRETEND that you are doing science, when in
>> fact all > you are doing is promoting political views via fraud.
>
>  To believe that one would have to believe that all of the worlds
>scientists are conspiring against your own personal political liedeology.

No, we would simply have to understand that Scott Nudds (aka Vista,
Vendicar, and other nyms) publicly stated goals are to murder the
President of the United States and to destroy the United States.  And
if Scott can destroy the US economy, by his support of bogus
"science", that would align well with Scott's stated goals.

Retief
Vendicar Decarian - 08 Mar 2007 09:53 GMT
> No, we would simply have to understand that Scott Nudds (aka Vista,
> Vendicar, and other nyms) publicly stated goals are to murder the
> President of the United States

 You Liar.  If that was my goal, the Retard in the White House would
already be dead.
If asked by a U.S. court to act as Bush's executioner, I will however
happily oblige.

Impeach Bush
Arrest Bush
Torture Bush
Try Bush
Convict Bush
Torture Bush
Execute Bush

And the rest of the sicophants who have aided in his campaign of mass
murder.

> and to destroy the United States.

 Oh yes.  Extermination of the AmeriKKKan state is onging and the goal of
all moral people.

> And if Scott can destroy the US economy, by his support of bogus
> "science", that would align well with Scott's stated goals.

 The use of real science has been much more entertaining and fascinating.

 Using real science necessitates you AmeriKKKan f.ck tards to lie to
yourselves in order to justify your actions, and those lies and the web of
distortions and lies needed to support them are delusions that are assisting
in extinguishing the AmeriKKKan state.
Retief Reichwinger Exxon Shill - 09 Mar 2007 02:02 GMT
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:49:13 -0800, "VistaJustWorks"
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Retief

Bogus Exxon Science is used to promote Mass Murder For Oil. Why is
Mass Murder good if YOU do it, but BAD if somebody else does it?
Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 00:41 GMT
> On Feb 18, 7:11 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: > Peter B. P. wrote: >
> > kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote: > > >> Peter B. P. wrote: > >>> kT
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> You are having some real difficulties with political terminology; I'd
> suggest an introductory text.

Better suggest a good psychiatrist. The kid needs it, very very badly.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 00:25 GMT
> Peter B. P. wrote: > kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: > >> Peter B. P.
> wrote: >>> kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: >>> >>>> kwag7693@hotmail.com
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> "If guns kill". It's at the bottom of every post.

*headdesk*

Hypothetical analogies do not constitute the threat of violence, you
f.cking, lying, smearing, arrogant, demented, mentally ill dumbfuck king
of all dumbfucks.

> > And I'm still not a fascist, but a dumbfuck shithead like you wouldn't
> > possibly know the difference between fascmism and libertarianism.
>
> Libertarians are fascists.

You are a demented dumbfuck if you even believe that for a second. But
we already knew this.

You, sir, are a prime example why it was an grave error to stop forcibly
locking people up in mental institutions some decades back. You belong
there. You are a prime candidate for acute psyshiatric treatment. You
are not sane, and you do not belong in society among sane people.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
kT - 19 Feb 2007 00:27 GMT
>> Peter B. P. wrote: > kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: > >> Peter B. P.
>> wrote: >>> kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: >>> >>>> kwag7693@hotmail.com
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> there. You are a prime candidate for acute psyshiatric treatment. You
> are not sane, and you do not belong in society among sane people.

Wow, wonderful meltdown Borg. Since your objections to carbon dioxide
induced global warming and climate change have no basis in science, and
your website is filled with political demagoguery, then your objections
to science must be political.

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Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 00:41 GMT
> >> Peter B. P. wrote: > kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: > >> Peter B. P.
> >> wrote: >>> kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: >>> >>>> kwag7693@hotmail.com
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> your website is filled with political demagoguery, then your objections
> to science must be political.

Now listen up, Elifritz, because my patience with your idiocy is wearing
dangerously thin:

I do not object to AGW. I object to shortsighted political action that
will do harm to the global economy while doing little or nothing to stop
global warming, or serve big-government statist political interests,
such as Kyoto is currently doing.

Is that clear? Or do I have to spell it out for you?

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If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

kT - 19 Feb 2007 00:45 GMT
>>>> Peter B. P. wrote: > kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: > >> Peter B. P.
>>>> wrote: >>> kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: >>> >>>> kwag7693@hotmail.com
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> Now listen up, Elifritz, because my patience with your idiocy is wearing
> dangerously thin:

Yes, you might go postal and start invoking violence any second now.

> I do not object to AGW. I object to shortsighted political action that
> will do harm to the global economy while doing little or nothing to stop
> global warming, or serve big-government statist political interests,
> such as Kyoto is currently doing.

In other words, you object to science for political reasons.

> Is that clear? Or do I have to spell it out for you?

I can spell it out for you. You are a F A S C I S T masquerading as a
Libertarian. Kyoto has nothing to do with science other than
acknowledging that we need to start reducing emission in a big way.

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Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 01:03 GMT
> Peter B. P. wrote: > kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: > >> Peter B. P.
> wrote: >>> kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Peter B. P. wrote: >
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Yes, you might go postal and start invoking violence any second now.

Sorry to disappint you, moron, but I will not. That's only in your sick
mind.

> > I do not object to AGW. I object to shortsighted political action that
> > will do harm to the global economy while doing little or nothing to stop
> > global warming, or serve big-government statist political interests,
> > such as Kyoto is currently doing.
>
> In other words, you object to science for political reasons.

Kyoto is not science, it IS POLITICS, you dumb f.cking moron.

> > Is that clear? Or do I have to spell it out for you?
>
> I can spell it out for you. You are a F A S C I S T masquerading as a
> Libertarian.

You are a lying, hateful, smearing, dumbfuck, demented moron
masquerading as a scientist.

> Kyoto has nothing to do with science

AT least you recognize it for what it is.

Now take your meds, you idiot dumbfuck.

-- regards , Peter B. P. - http://titancity.com/blog ,
http://macplanet.dk

If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?
kT - 19 Feb 2007 01:08 GMT
>> Peter B. P. wrote: > kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: > >> Peter B. P.
>> wrote: >>> kT <cosmic@lifeform.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Peter B. P. wrote: >
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> Sorry to disappint you, moron, but I will not. That's only in your sick
> mind.

So where is the danger, besides the runaway global warming danger?

>>> I do not object to AGW. I object to shortsighted political action that
>>> will do harm to the global economy while doing little or nothing to stop
>>> global warming, or serve big-government statist political interests,
>>> such as Kyoto is currently doing.

>> In other words, you object to science for political reasons.
>
> Kyoto is not science, it IS POLITICS, you dumb f.cking moron.

So you object to politics, because you can't object to the science.

>>> Is that clear? Or do I have to spell it out for you?
>> I can spell it out for you. You are a F A S C I S T masquerading as a
>> Libertarian.

> You are a lying, hateful, smearing, dumbfuck, demented moron
> masquerading as a scientist.

I feel your pain, really I do. Medicine is based upon science.

>> Kyoto has nothing to do with science
>
> AT least you recognize it for what it is.

Kyoto is irrelevant. You object to any emissions reduction because you
object to the science. Kyoto is just your scapegoat because you are
utterly unable to grasp how science operates and completely unable to
appreciate the results it delivers. None of us are happy with the
pollution and the runaway global warming we are facing, but that is the
reality of our situation, and the sooner you get used to it, the sooner
we can all begin the process of solving the problems using science.

> Now take your meds, you idiot dumbfuck.

Science is my medicine.

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Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 01:27 GMT
> >>> I do not object to AGW. I object to shortsighted political action that
> >>> will do harm to the global economy while doing little or nothing to stop
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> So you object to politics, because you can't object to the science.

Can't your read? I do NOT object to the science.

> >>> Is that clear? Or do I have to spell it out for you?
> >> I can spell it out for you. You are a F A S C I S T masquerading as a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I feel your pain, really I do. Medicine is based upon science.

Then take your medicine. You need it.

> >> Kyoto has nothing to do with science
> >
> > AT least you recognize it for what it is.
>
> Kyoto is irrelevant. You object to any emissions reduction because you
> object to the science.

No, I do not. You are deluded, demented and mentally ill. Get help.

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If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

kT - 19 Feb 2007 01:32 GMT
>>>>> I do not object to AGW. I object to shortsighted political action that
>>>>> will do harm to the global economy while doing little or nothing to stop
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Can't your read? I do NOT object to the science.

Then what do you not understand about the reality of runaway global
warming and the danger it presents to civilization, and what do you not
understand about a radical reduction in emissions as the only way to
stop it? Clearly at the rate we are going we will be in the 3 to 5 ppm
per year range of increase, and in short order we will be looking at CO2
concentrations in excess of 1000 ppm, completely neglecting positive
feedback effects. Clearly you don't care, since you will have passed on
before the danger becomes extreme, but we are entering the danger zone
right now, if you haven't noticed. Or haven't you noticed? Is Denmark
that isolated? The danger is everywhere you look, extreme weather,
floods, drought, stronger more frequent hurricanes, sea level rising.

> No, I do not. You are deluded, demented and mentally ill. Get help.

Yes, I can recognize danger when I see it, and people with your attitude
are a danger to society. That is why I confront you with the evidence.

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Peter B. P. - 19 Feb 2007 01:39 GMT
> >>>>> I do not object to AGW. I object to shortsighted political action that
> >>>>> will do harm to the global economy while doing little or nothing to stop
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Then what do you not understand about the reality of runaway global
> warming and the danger it presents to civilization,

The danger is miniscule and you and other catastrophists are blowing it
way out of proprtion.

> and what do you not
> understand about a radical reduction in emissions as the only way to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> feedback effects. Clearly you don't care, since you will have passed on
> before the danger becomes extreme,

No, I will not. Your lack of perspecitve shows.

> but we are entering the danger zone
> right now, if you haven't noticed. Or haven't you noticed? Is Denmark
> that isolated? The danger is everywhere you look, extreme weather,
> floods, drought, stronger more frequent hurricanes,

More storms. So what, that can be prepared for.

> sea level rising.

Sea leve will rise about 44 cm by 2100 according to the IPCC. That is
not a significant danger to civilization.

> > No, I do not. You are deluded, demented and mentally ill. Get help.
>
> Yes, I can recognize danger when I see it

All I recognize is a deluded individual with an overinflated ego. That
is you, sonny.

You're a con artist with a clearly limited perspective hiding behind
science. The science does not support your catastrophist worldview.

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If guns kill, do pencils cause spelling errors?

kT - 19 Feb 2007 01:55 GMT
> You're a con artist with a clearly limited perspective hiding behind
> science. The science does not support your catastrophist worldview.

Science shows many possible catastrophes, the most recent being
Yellowstone and Toba. Global warming is just another average
catastrophe, one of many different varieties of average catastrophes.

http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/southeast_asia/indonesia/toba.html

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raylopez99 - 25 Feb 2007 12:26 GMT
> > Then what do you not understand about the reality of runaway global
> > warming and the danger it presents to civilization,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Sea leve will rise about 44 cm by 2100 according to the IPCC. That is
> not a significant danger to civilization.

Peter B.P. you are absolutely correct in this thread.  I could not
have said it better myself.

BTW from a fellow Liberarian (which I understand you are) it's
interesting that yet another Montreal Protocol meeting is being
planned for this year, yet _not_ on the agenda is whether India, China
manufacturers should cut certain emissions of certain gases that harm
the Ozone Layer, despite being _allowed_ by the Montreal Protocol.
Read the NY Times article at this thread:  http://tinyurl.com/3cepnr
("Haier, a big Chinese
manufacturer of air-conditioners, said in a statement that it had
voluntarily begun shipping to the United States only models that use
more advanced refrigerants, which do not damage the ozone layer")

Long story short:  manufacturers are agreeing to limit making these
gases, voluntarily.  No need to get governments involved.

Likewise, GW could be easily cured, if it's found that CO2 is such a
menance, by voluntary cooperation IMO.  Something like a "Green Label"
and peer pressure (power to ostracize, including boycotts) should work
to stop excessive CO2 pollution, with no need for drastic "cap and
trade" or other such productivity blocking means.

RL
Joe Fischer - 19 Feb 2007 04:02 GMT
>Then what do you not understand about the reality of runaway global
>warming and the danger it presents to civilization,