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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Optics / August 2005



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Speed limit at C a misconception?

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Skywise - 20 Aug 2005 05:01 GMT
http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html

"Scientists Mess with the Speed of Light"

Ok, so I'm reading this article and they're talking about
making light go faster than the speed of light in optical
fibers. I'm thinking they've got to be talking about phase
velocity, which they eventually do. But there's this one
paragraph that has me puzzled,

 "Light in a vacuum travels at approximately 186,000 miles
  per second, but a popular misconception is that, according
  to Einstein’s special theory of relativity, _nothing_ in the
  universe can travel faster than this speed."

A "popular misconception"? uhhhh....when did this change?

I can accept phase velocity going faster than light, but phase
velocity isn't a "thing", as in a tangible physical entity. The
cosmic speed limit applies to physical particles. Phase velocity
isn't physical, is it?

Educate me please! :)

Brian
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Charles - 20 Aug 2005 05:05 GMT
>http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>Brian

One Comment I have read, in Feinman's book, "QED", is that for short
distances light can and does go both faster and slower than C.  for
any appreciable distance those components cancel and light appears to
travel at C.

He's smarter than I, so I accept him at his word.
Skywise - 20 Aug 2005 06:38 GMT
<Snipola>
> One Comment I have read, in Feinman's book, "QED", is that for short
> distances light can and does go both faster and slower than C.  for
> any appreciable distance those components cancel and light appears to
> travel at C.
>
> He's smarter than I, so I accept him at his word.

I have that book and recall that remark, now that you mention it.
IIRC he's talking about quantum distances.

Brian
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Charles - 20 Aug 2005 07:45 GMT
><Snipola>
>> One Comment I have read, in Feinman's book, "QED", is that for short
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Brian

Yes, and after I read the link I realized that my response was totally
wrong.

I embarase myself less when I don't post.
John Savard - 25 Aug 2005 18:14 GMT
>One Comment I have read, in Feinman's book, "QED", is that for short
>distances light can and does go both faster and slower than C.  for
>any appreciable distance those components cancel and light appears to
>travel at C.

>He's smarter than I, so I accept him at his word.

It may indeed be possible for light (and even other things) to travel
slightly faster than light... downhill... because gravity changes the
fabric of space. But that means that the speed slower than c at which
light travels uphill is the maximum possible speed at which one can go
uphill as well.

John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
Don Klipstein - 28 Aug 2005 05:43 GMT
>One Comment I have read, in Feinman's book, "QED", is that for short
>distances light can and does go both faster and slower than C.  for
>any appreciable distance those components cancel and light appears to
>travel at C.

 Electromagnetic waves sometimes travel faster than C.  What is different
is how a discernable cluster of electromagnetic waves can travel:  as in
"phase velocity" (speed of the waves) as opposed to "group velocity"
(speed of a cluster of waves).  The phase velocity can exceed C while the
group velocity is more limited to C.
 What typically happens with a cluster of waves when the phase velocity
exceeds C:  Something that I have often seen in a side of the wake of a
passing boat.  Waves move faster than the wave cluster.  Within the
cluster, waves form at the trailing edge, scoot up to the leading edge,
and die out at the leading edge.  Another effect, due to a "usual factor"
of phase velocity varying with frequency when not equal to group velocity:
The wave cluster gets "more smeared" (wider and with an increasing number
of waves) with time.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
Don Klipstein - 20 Aug 2005 11:01 GMT
>http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Educate me please! :)

 In some optical fibers and waveguides, you have "phase velocity" and
"group velocity".

 Ever see a wake of a passing boat while on the shore of a calm lake or
calm slow river?  The wake often has a bunch of wavelets.  The "phase
velocity" is that of the wavelets, and the "group velocity" is that of the
cluster of them, as in the wake.  Often you can see wavelets materializing
at the trailing edge of the group, moving to the leading edge of the
group, then dying out.
 Another thing you can usually see in this case is the group getting
wider and more blurred as it travels.

 When the waves are electromagnetic waves, the group velocity does not
exceed C even when the phase velocity does.

 Another thing:  When phase velocity and group velocity differ, it
appears to me that usually the phase velocity varies with frequency.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
Jürgen Appel - 20 Aug 2005 14:59 GMT
>   When the waves are electromagnetic waves, the group velocity does not
> exceed C even when the phase velocity does.

That is not true. Both, phase and group velocity can be larger than c.

The group velocity just describes the propagation velocity of the center of
a gaussian pulse.
If you send a gaussian pulse into a medium and the tail of that pulse is
absorbed much stronger than the head, the center of that pulse will shift
forward and thus group velocities >c can easily be obtained. It is even
possible that the group velocity is negative, meaning that a gaussian
pulse exits the medium even before the incoming pulse has fully entered.

As you can see, this does not contradict causality and hence in such
strongly dispersive media neither group- or phase- veclocity is a
reasonable measure.

>   Another thing:  When phase velocity and group velocity differ, it
> appears to me that usually the phase velocity varies with frequency.

Yes, they are closely connected:
The refractive index n is directly related to the phase velocity v_p:
v_p = c/n

The group velocity is related to the derivative of the refractive index
v_g = c/(n + w dn/dw) ~approx c/(w dn/dw) for strong dispersion.

Note that by the Kramers-Kronig relations strong dispersion always goes
along with a strong frequency dependence of the absorbtion or gain.

Best regards,
       Jürgen Appel

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Don Klipstein - 21 Aug 2005 07:17 GMT
>>   When the waves are electromagnetic waves, the group velocity does not
>> exceed C even when the phase velocity does.
>
>That is not true. Both, phase and group velocity can be larger than c.

 Group velocity always fails to exceed C when necessary to transport a
signal at a rate exceeding C for distances more than a "wavelength" (or
even a fraction thereof).

>The group velocity just describes the propagation velocity of the center of
>a gaussian pulse.

 True!  And I find this to not be an argument towards "group velocity"
exceeding "C" and not even in cases when "phase velocity" does exceed C"!

>If you send a gaussian pulse into a medium and the tail of that pulse is
>absorbed much stronger than the head, the center of that pulse will shift
>forward and thus group velocities >c can easily be obtained.

 I dispute this "extrapolatable example" ("My Words") honestly existing
repeatably anywhere, either in or not-in any situations that I mentioned,
described, allowed, "whatever"!!!

> It is even
>possible that the group velocity is negative, meaning that a gaussian
>pulse exits the medium even before the incoming pulse has fully entered.

 I find some ability to hypothesize this occurring, but surely I believe
this requires materials differing significantly from any that can be used
to build objects in this universe!

 It surely appears to me:  In actual materials, actual waveguides, actual
coaxial cables, etc. "Group Velocity" has at worst some strong
presentation of evidence (when collected among an adequate sample size of
studies) of never exceeding the "C" value that is very close to 186,000
miles/second or 300 KM per second.

>As you can see, this does not contradict causality and hence in such
>strongly dispersive media neither group- or phase- veclocity is a
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Note that by the Kramers-Kronig relations strong dispersion always goes
>along with a strong frequency dependence of the absorbtion or gain.

 Any notations here of whether and how "group velocity" is limited to
any of "C" or "phase velocity" or being limited to slower than both of
these?

>Best regards,
>        Jürgen Appel

Likewise Best Regards, - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
Jürgen Appel - 21 Aug 2005 22:11 GMT
Don Klipstein schrieb:

>>If you send a gaussian pulse into a medium and the tail of that pulse is
>>absorbed much stronger than the head, the center of that pulse will shift
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> repeatably anywhere, either in or not-in any situations that I mentioned,
> described, allowed, "whatever"!!!

Maybe some of these (more or less randomly coosen) references can convince
you:

http://link.aps.org/abstract/PRA/v1/p305

http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0302166
http://link.aps.org/abstract/PRA/v49/p2938
http://link.aps.org/abstract/PRA/v69/e063808
http://link.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v93/e203902

>> It is even
>>possible that the group velocity is negative, meaning that a gaussian
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> this requires materials differing significantly from any that can be used
> to build objects in this universe!

>   It surely appears to me:  In actual materials, actual waveguides,
>   actual
> coaxial cables, etc. "Group Velocity" has at worst some strong
> presentation of evidence (when collected among an adequate sample size of
> studies) of never exceeding the "C" value that is very close to 186,000
> miles/second or 300 KM per second.

As the references above show, this is not the case. Even a simple electric
amplifier or an optical fiber or an atomic vapor can show this behavior.

>>Yes, they are closely connected:
>>The refractive index n is directly related to the phase velocity v_p:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> any of "C" or "phase velocity" or being limited to slower than both of
> these?

There are no limits I know of. However one must remind himself that the
group and phase velocities are not necessarily connected to any speed with
with energy or information is transmitted. The latter are always bounded
by the vacuum speed of light.

Best regards,
               Jürgen

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Skywise - 20 Aug 2005 21:11 GMT
>>http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
>  - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

I like your visualization, Don. Works well for the mathematically
challenged.

So far all the responses make sense to me and help alleviate
my lack of knowledge about phase and group velocities.

The thing that's still bugging me though is that phrase about
nothing going faster than light is a misconception. I suspect
this is an incorrect statement.

Even though the phase or group velocities might in and of themselves
be going faster than c, the light itself isn't going faster than c,
right?

If 'they' are arguing that something *is* going faster than c (the
group or phase velocity) and that therefore the statement that nothing
can go faster than c is false, I say 'they' are picking nits.

After all, are not concepts like phase or group velocity just
mathematical constructs? They aren't "real", right?

Brian
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Don Klipstein - 21 Aug 2005 07:27 GMT
>>>http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>be going faster than c, the light itself isn't going faster than c,
>right?

 The "Group Velocity" is heavily limited to not moving at a speed
exceeding "C" even when the "phase velocity" is allowed to exceed C.

 This means that a pulse of light has its center and by most measures its
"leading edge" not moving forward faster than roughly 186,300 "statute
miles" per second or 300 km per second even if waves of the frequency
involved should.

>If 'they' are arguing that something *is* going faster than c (the
>group or phase velocity) and that therefore the statement that nothing
>can go faster than c is false, I say 'they' are picking nits.
>
>After all, are not concepts like phase or group velocity just
>mathematical constructs? They aren't "real", right?

 "Phase Velocity" and "Group Velocity" are real!

 "Group Velocity" refers to speed of a pulse of a cluster of waves!

 "Phase Velocity" refers to speed of crest-trough-defined waves within a
pulse, when that is different from velocity or speed of any definable
cluster or modulation of such waves!

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
redbelly - 21 Aug 2005 20:01 GMT
Some people already know this, but there is a nice graphical way to
represent group and phase velocities.

Suppose you have a plot with frequency on the y-axis, and the
reciprocal of the wavelength on the x-axis, for some material which
light (or other E-M radiation) is to pass through.

The SLOPE of the graph gives the group velocity, while the phase
velocity is given by the ratio of y/x (which is simply frequency x
wavelength).  For a material where velocity is independent of
wavelength, the graph is a simple straight line; the slope and y/x
ratio are equal everywhere, so that phase and group velocity are equal
and constant.

Mark
AES - 21 Aug 2005 22:27 GMT
> >>>Educate me please! :)

Try:

S. C. Bloch, "Eighth velocity of light," Am. J. Phys., vol. 45, pp.
538-549,  (June 1977).

  Abstract: In dispersive media the phase velocity, group velocity,
energy velocity, signal velocity, relativistic velocity constant, and
ratio-of-units velocity are usually not useful concepts for wave
packets. The centrovelocity has been suggested as a measure which
overcomes many of the objections to the first six. We describe yet
another, based on the cross-correlation of the original and received
wave packets, which is shown to be useful in time-of-flight measurements
in weakly and strongly dispersive media; absorption and amplification
are readily accommodated. Applications for specific examples of wave
packets in magnetoplasmas are presented.

Available on line from <http://scitation.aip.org/>

You can work backward from the refs cited in this to many earlier papers.
 
If anyone has worked forward from this and collected a bunch of later
refs that cite back to this, I'd be delighted to get a copy . . .
Skywise - 22 Aug 2005 00:04 GMT
<Snipola>

>>After all, are not concepts like phase or group velocity just
>>mathematical constructs? They aren't "real", right?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>  - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Ok (I think). So how does this work with a single photon?

Brian
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Jürgen Appel - 22 Aug 2005 01:27 GMT
Skywise schrieb:

> Ok (I think).

In the paper you refer to (doi:10.1063/1.2033147), the authors create a
very narrowband (few MHz) gain or loss for a signal pulse in an optical
fiber by a Brillouin scattering process with a strong counterpropagating
pump wave.

The strongly frequency dependent transmission of the fiber then leads to a
huge dispersion which produces the extraordinary group velocities they
observe. This is nothing new by itself (the effect has been described in
the sixties of the last century or even earlier).

The novelity is that they can produce this strongly frequency dependent
transmission in a standard optical fiber, not using specific transitions
of doped crystals or atomic vapors.

> So how does this work with a single photon?

In principle: Yes.

The process that they use does not conserve the photon number, since either
strong absorption or gain is involved.

Let's first clarify what it means if we talk about a single photon in a
gaussian pulse. Such a state means that we have a coherent superposition
of exactly one photon being in one of many plane wave modes with
wavevector so that the total pulse is gaussian.

That means, that if we analyze such a pulse with a photon counter, there is
a certain small probability to measure the photon very early at the
beginning of the pulse, a much bigger probability to actually find a
photon at the center of the pulse and a small probability to find the
photon at the tail of the gaussian.

So even if we sent this pulse through a vacuum channel to an detector,
there is no violation of causality if we detect the photon at the exit
before the center of the pulse entered.

Lets now assume that such a "gaussian photon" enters their pumped fiber.
Then at the end a smaller (bigger) number of photons also in a gaussian
pulse exits earlier (later) than one would expect with the pump wave
absent.

Note 1) There is not a problem with energy conservation since energy can
exchanged with the pump wave.

Note 2) The wave vector dependent absorption leads to either an attenuation
(amplification) of the head or the tail of the gaussian: the probability
of detecting a photon in the tail is reduced because of attenuation (or
the probability of finding a photon in the tail is enhanced by adding
additional photons to that part of the pulse). This leads to a shift of
the center of the gaussian which means acceleration (slowdown).

So, there is no magic :-)

Best regards,
               Jürgen

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David Littlewood - 22 Aug 2005 03:27 GMT
>Skywise schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>there is no violation of causality if we detect the photon at the exit
>before the center of the pulse entered.

I'm so far out of my depth here as to be almost at the beach on the
other side. However, FWIW, presumably this would not result in the
transmission of meaningful information at >c because the receiver would
have no way of knowing whether the detected event was (a) an event which
happened in the past (most probable) or (b) an event which had not
"happened" yet (unlikely but non-zero probability). Presumably some kind
of uncertainty principle applies.

>Lets now assume that such a "gaussian photon" enters their pumped fiber.
>Then at the end a smaller (bigger) number of photons also in a gaussian
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>So, there is no magic :-)

David
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David Littlewood

Skywise - 22 Aug 2005 20:21 GMT
Thanks everyone. I'm getting some great explanations for how
group and phase volocities work.

Now, about that phrase that started all this fuss, that it
is a "popular misconception" that Einstein's Special Theory
of Relativity says nothing can go faster than light.

Is it a "popular misconception"? Because this is the first
I've heard of it. I hardly think group and phase velocites
going faster than C is reason to start calling Einstein's
theories "popular misconceptions".

Brian
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Timo Nieminen - 22 Aug 2005 23:01 GMT
> Thanks everyone. I'm getting some great explanations for how
> group and phase volocities work.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> going faster than C is reason to start calling Einstein's
> theories "popular misconceptions".

It's the idea that "nothing can go faster than c", even non-material
things such a envelopes of wave packets, that is the "popular
misconception." The laser-pointer dot on a sufficiently distant screen is
sufficient disproof of the misconception; no need to even resort to
technicalities of waves.

AFAICT, the most popular misconception is the observers see moving clocks
running slow and moving rods shortened. This is the fault of a lot of
presentations of special relativity wherein "observer" is written, but
"coordinate system" is what is meant. What is measured by a set of clocks
and rules filling space is not what the eyeball sees, for sure.

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Skywise - 22 Aug 2005 23:56 GMT
>> Thanks everyone. I'm getting some great explanations for how
>> group and phase volocities work.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> sufficient disproof of the misconception; no need to even resort to
> technicalities of waves.

Yeah, I know about that trick. But there still isn't anything
going faster than light. It's an illusion.

I fear I'm not expressing my thoughts clearly. It seems to me
that all the things expressed so far that can go faster than
light are not material objects.

What I'm getting at are tangible items like spaceships, baseballs,
protons, etc... Can they go faster than c or not?

> AFAICT, the most popular misconception is the observers see moving clocks
> running slow and moving rods shortened. This is the fault of a lot of
> presentations of special relativity wherein "observer" is written, but
> "coordinate system" is what is meant. What is measured by a set of clocks
> and rules filling space is not what the eyeball sees, for sure.

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Timo Nieminen - 23 Aug 2005 00:18 GMT
> I fear I'm not expressing my thoughts clearly. It seems to me
> that all the things expressed so far that can go faster than
> light are not material objects.
>
> What I'm getting at are tangible items like spaceships, baseballs,
> protons, etc... Can they go faster than c or not?

Not that we've ever seen. Theoretically, if it begins at a speed less than
c, then you can't accelerate to c or higher. Practice supports this, too.

More speculatively, something could begin with a speed > c, in which case
you can't slow it down to c or slower. Google for "tachyon", and you'll
get some dirt on them. The only problem is that nobody has ever found any.

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Skywise - 23 Aug 2005 01:48 GMT
>> I fear I'm not expressing my thoughts clearly. It seems to me
>> that all the things expressed so far that can go faster than
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> you'll get some dirt on them. The only problem is that nobody has ever
> found any.

Yes. I am aware of the theoretical tachyon.

My understanding of the phrase "nothing can go faster than light"
applies to material objects, ie spaceships, baseballs, and protons.

If that is correct, then the phrase "nothing can go faster than light
is a popular misconception" is false.

Right?

(I'm starting to feel like I'm in a causality loop)

Brian
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Timo Nieminen - 23 Aug 2005 02:41 GMT
> My understanding of the phrase "nothing can go faster than light"
> applies to material objects, ie spaceships, baseballs, and protons.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Right?

The "misconception" part was the inclusion of nonmaterial objects (but see
below) in the "nothing" above. The point being the reaction that FTL phase
or group speeds elicit: "SR is falsified!" or "Isn't that prohibited by
SR?"

A complication exists, however, since one might not wish to call
information, energy, momentum, and angular momentum "material objects".
The word "thing" is such a nicely imprecise term!

Just from responses I've seen from others, not all people share your
understanding of the phrase above.

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Skywise - 23 Aug 2005 03:18 GMT
>> My understanding of the phrase "nothing can go faster than light"
>> applies to material objects, ie spaceships, baseballs, and protons.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Just from responses I've seen from others, not all people share your
> understanding of the phrase above.

I think the only quesiton I have left is, "is my understanding correct"?

Brian
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Timo Nieminen - 23 Aug 2005 06:09 GMT
> >> My understanding of the phrase "nothing can go faster than light"
> >> applies to material objects, ie spaceships, baseballs, and protons.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> I think the only quesiton I have left is, "is my understanding correct"?

Pretty much. But you need to include the energy, momentum, angular
momentum, and information carried by fields as well as "material objects".

Also, the theory says nothing that forbids tachyons.

If you consider photons to be "material objects", then, sure, your
understanding looks to be correct.

Fundamentally, when you get down to quantum field theory, then the
momentum, energy etc commonly considered to be carried by "physical
objects" is also carried by fields. So whether you think of things in
terms of particles or fields is somewhat optional.

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Skywise - 23 Aug 2005 06:44 GMT
>> >> My understanding of the phrase "nothing can go faster than light"
>> >> applies to material objects, ie spaceships, baseballs, and protons.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> objects" is also carried by fields. So whether you think of things in
> terms of particles or fields is somewhat optional.

Ah yes! The 'wavicle' problem. And, probability amplitudes. I've
read a few books that address the topic for the layman (ie the
mathematically challenged, ME!).

Yeah, I guess at the quantum level there is a non zero probability
of something exceeding the speed of light, but we're talking about
single particles/waves. When we start talking about macroscopic
objects - baseballs and spaceships - and we start adding up all
the probablity amplitudes, the probability of that macro-object
exceeding c becomes exceeding close to zero.

I guess my real concern was that people who don't know any
better are going to read the news story and read this statement
about this 'popular misconception' and get the wrong idea.

Brian
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Timo Nieminen - 23 Aug 2005 08:11 GMT
> I guess my real concern was that people who don't know any
> better are going to read the news story and read this statement
> about this 'popular misconception' and get the wrong idea.

Isn't that the whole function of science news, to give people the wrong
idea?

:(

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Skywise - 23 Aug 2005 20:44 GMT
>> I guess my real concern was that people who don't know any
>> better are going to read the news story and read this statement
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>:(

Well, thanks to all, I now feel comfortable again in my understanding
of the universe. For a while there I was feeling uneasy. I could
hear the conspiracy theories in my mind building and getting louder.
They're all quiet again!

Now, I need to go back to the news article that started this and
send an email to the editor/author and question them. I think all I
need to do is ask them to explain why it's a popular misconception
that nothing can go faster then light.

I won't expect a response.

Brian
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Jürgen Appel - 23 Aug 2005 09:34 GMT
Skywise schrieb:

> Yeah, I guess at the quantum level there is a non zero probability
> of something exceeding the speed of light, but we're talking about
> single particles/waves.

No. None that I know of.

Every respectable theory that I know of agrees strictly at least with the
special theory of relativity. So also in quantum electrodynamics (and
afaik quantumchromodynamics) there is _nothing_ (literally)  faster than
light. Each event can only effect other events that lie in its forward
lightcone of causality. Admittedly sometimes it can be very difficult to
find a sensible definition of velocity as we saw in this discussion here.

The only problem comes with curved spacetime as it is postulated by the
general theory of relativity. Here no consistent quantum theory has been
formulated yet.

Regards,
       Jürgen

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Skywise - 28 Aug 2005 05:52 GMT
Skywise <into@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in news:11glduqtnb7k010
@corp.supernews.com:

<Snipola>
> I guess my real concern was that people who don't know any
> better are going to read the news story and read this statement
> about this 'popular misconception' and get the wrong idea.

As I feared. As I write this I'm listening to a radio talk
show, for which the host is generally not an idiot, but he's
talking about this light going faster than light stuff. He's
way out of his league and admits he doesn't understand it,
but suspect what's probably going to happen.

There's now a unch of people thinking they know something
special and the next time someone says nothing can go faster
than light, these people are going to pipe up and exclaim,
"WRONG! I heard on the radio that some scientists made light
that goes faster than the speed of light."

I suspect many people will now expect it's possible to make
a spaceship go faster than light.

<sigh>

Brian
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Skywise - 28 Aug 2005 06:22 GMT
Skywise <into@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in news:11h2gp0270h26d6
@corp.supernews.com:

> Skywise <into@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in news:11glduqtnb7k010
> @corp.supernews.com:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> I suspect many people will now expect it's possible to make
> a spaceship go faster than light.

Yep. Continuing to listen to this talk show host he said this
may lead to faster than light communication.

<SIGH>

> <sigh>
>
> Brian

Brian
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Don Klipstein - 22 Aug 2005 02:04 GMT
><Snipola>
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Ok (I think). So how does this work with a single photon?

 A single photon definitely moves at the group velocity, or at least does
so for its average speed.  I wonder if it has a "lurching" motion on a
scale consistent with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle when moving
through a medium or an object where the phase velocity is different?

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
AES - 20 Aug 2005 15:32 GMT
> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Brian

Some of my colleagues -- quite a few in fact -- like to analyse certain
dispersive linear systems, or even do experiments on them, in which the
envelope or the peak of a light pulse appears to travel forward at
faster than c -- an effect which they refer to as "superluminal" light
propagation.  

This effect occurs because the different frequency components that make
up the pulse travel at different phase velocities in the dispersive
system, and the pulse envelope is as a consequence reshaped such that
its peak, or some central portion of the pulse, appears to move forward
at greater than c.

The very frontmost edge of the pulse, however, never travels faster than
c, and I would bet that there is some general theorem about the energy
in any finite section of the pulse never moving forward at great than c.

In addition, I am not aware of any such systems, much less any
experimental results, in which the predicted or observed forward shift
of the pulse peak is anything more than a very small fraction of the
pulse width.  In one highly touted result the peak of the output pulse
was shifted forward relative to its ordinary velocity of light position
by, as I recall, some 10s of nanoseconds, in a pulse that was tens of
microseconds long.

I'd be very glad to hear of any systems in which the predicted forward
shift of the pulse peak through the system, relative to free space
propagation over the same physical distance, is even as much as one full
pulse width.
Jürgen Appel - 21 Aug 2005 22:32 GMT
<posted and mailed>

> In addition, I am not aware of any such systems, much less any
> experimental results, in which the predicted or observed forward shift
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> by, as I recall, some 10s of nanoseconds, in a pulse that was tens of
> microseconds long.

Because of the intimate interconnection between dispersion and
absorption/gain by the Kramers-Kronig relations, such steep dispersions as
they are needed to get a significant slowdown/speedup of an optical light
pulse usually also come with vastly changing intensities. This makes it
very difficult to measure significant changes in group velocity
experimentally.

> I'd be very glad to hear of any systems in which the predicted forward
> shift of the pulse peak through the system, relative to free space
> propagation over the same physical distance, is even as much as one full
> pulse width.

You just need a sufficiently long medium... ;-)

(but then again, the outcoming pulse probably is way too weak to be
detected)

Best regards,
               Jürgen
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markzoom@digiverse.net - 21 Aug 2005 19:20 GMT
> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

The whole of physics is one huge misconception bristling with misnomas.
Take for example "bent space". How can a vacuum be bent? Well of course
there has to be something physical in it to "bend" but no, there's no
proof for space having substance ( of course neglecting the stuff that
bends trajectories and stops alleged photons going too fast!) Then
there's magic "fields", magnetic and gravitational, again made of, yup
you guessed it, nothing.
Fizzics is a f.cking joke. They don't have a clue what gravity is, what
photons are, what fields are made of, even less what consciousness is.
markzoom@digiverse.net - 21 Aug 2005 21:48 GMT
> > http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
> >
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Fizzics is a f.cking joke. They don't have a clue what gravity is, what
> photons are, what fields are made of, even less WTF consciousness is.

..and in their pompous ignorance these eminences proclaim that "nowt
can ever go beyond C", just like many dumbasses have imposed their
erroneous limits all the way through history and been proved wrong.
A convenient cover for pompous ignorance is to simply put the word
"quantum-" in front of the phenomena they don't have a f.cking clue how
to begin to explain the workings of.
"Photons" are a bloody laugh too, "point particles" (meaning they don't
have a size = don't exists) travelling in "waves" of some sort. Of
course they don't have a clue of what's actually travelling in these
"waves", and again ignore the fact that every single point of
observable "empty" space is filled to the brim with these things
travelling in countless directions, yet almost(?) never colliding.
Quite frankly I think the money us plebs put towards their existance
would be better spent on metaphysics to come up with and prove
completely new theories rather than the magic hocuspocus so
traditionally dished out by stuffy  career academics.
Skywise - 22 Aug 2005 00:11 GMT
Your ad hominum attacks gain you nothing. Rather, it makes
you the "f.cking joke", as you put it.

Brian
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markzoom@digiverse.net - 22 Aug 2005 01:13 GMT
> Your ad hominum attacks gain you nothing. Rather, it makes
> you the "f.cking joke", as you put it.

And who may the "hominem" after "ad" be then?
Ah yes, you're probably one of these academics that gets paid for
avoiding the questions of what the mechansisms of gravity, fields,
light and consciousness are.
No doubt you also use the misnoma "space" for something that can be
bent (simply because you haven't got a blind clue of what's there) and
think that nothing will ever be made to go faster than C.

Lets see you falter on this one too:

Two discs in space spin in relation to each other.
They cannot perceive any points of reference (coz they are inanimate
objects!)
Which one/two would impart centrifugal force on an object affixed to
it?

Now go and find why they obey a universal frame of reference and earn
your f.cking keep instead of hiding your ignorance behind a huff.

> Brian
> --
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Skywise - 22 Aug 2005 02:25 GMT
markzoom@digiverse.net wrote in news:1124669626.466362.189320
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>> Your ad hominum attacks gain you nothing. Rather, it makes
>> you the "f.cking joke", as you put it.
>
> And who may the "hominem" after "ad" be then?

The ones you kept referring to in your posts as "they". By
inference, anyone who disagrees with your position.

> Ah yes, you're probably one of these academics that gets paid for
> avoiding the questions of what the mechansisms of gravity, fields,
> light and consciousness are.

More fallacious thinking. You're jumping to conclusions based
on little or no evidence. I am not an academician. In fact, I
have no degrees. Beyond high school I have one year of formal
electronics training. I am an autodidact. I am a skeptic and a
critical thinker, and I have long hair. Anything else you want
to know?

> No doubt you also use the misnoma "space" for something that can be
> bent (simply because you haven't got a blind clue of what's there) and
> think that nothing will ever be made to go faster than C.

<sigh> Try thinking four dimensionally.

> Lets see you falter on this one too:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Which one/two would impart centrifugal force on an object affixed to
> it?

The question is ambiguous and contains statements which are leading.

> Now go and find why they obey a universal frame of reference and earn
> your f.cking keep instead of hiding your ignorance behind a huff.

Again with the language and ad hominum. Is that the only way you can
communicate? I can f.cking cuss too, but what does it gain me in this
situation? Nothing. Besides, the only one who seems to be in a huff
is you.

Brian
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markzoom@digiverse.net - 22 Aug 2005 08:57 GMT
> markzoom@digiverse.net wrote in news:1124669626.466362.189320
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> have no degrees. Beyond high school I have one year of formal
> electronics training.

Fair enough, sorry. Have you ever been to the sci. and alt. physics
NGs?
The pompous idiots there are beyond belief.

> I am an autodidact. I am a skeptic and a
> critical thinker, and I have long hair. Anything else you want
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> <sigh> Try thinking four dimensionally.

Try thinking five dimensionally and more.

> > Lets see you falter on this one too:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The question is ambiguous...

Which part could be clearer?

> ... and contains statements which are leading.

It is an unanswerable question because the mechanism that defines when
an object is stationary or spinning is undiscovered.
Sure, it can be spinning in relation to something else, but what is
the connecting mechanism?
Following from that, imagine if that frame of reference varies across
the universe. Something that we would consider stationary seen from our
point of view would be throwing out stuff for no apparent reason,
becuse in it's local  frame of reference it IS spinning.

> > Now go and find why they obey a universal frame of reference and earn
> > your f.cking keep instead of hiding your ignorance behind a huff.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> situation? Nothing. Besides, the only one who seems to be in a huff
> is you.

I sure am frustrated at the lack of answers in physics about the most
basic things. What's even more frustrating is that the "science" of
physics is not even tasked with looking for them (contrary to popular
belief). Ask a physicist "What's a magnetic field made of?" and he'll
give you some pompous spiel about lines of force, totally missing that
you want to know what material is doing the acting in a field.
Whatsmore, he's not even looking for it, that's not even  the job of
physics. So whose job is it?

> Brian
> --
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Skywise - 22 Aug 2005 20:15 GMT
markzoom@digiverse.net wrote in news:1124697468.466502.327470
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

<Snipola>
> I sure am frustrated at the lack of answers in physics about the most
> basic things. What's even more frustrating is that the "science" of
> physics is not even tasked with looking for them (contrary to popular
> belief). Ask a physicist "What's a magnetic field made of?" and he'll
> give you some pompous spiel about lines of force, totally missing that
> you want to know what material is doing the acting in a field.

Perhaps the physicist is trying to make the answer simple and short.
I'm no expert on magnetic fields, but I would suspect that the
correct and full answer would take a semester of college to explain.

There's a reason it takes 8+ years to become a physicist.

> Whatsmore, he's not even looking for it, that's not even  the job of
> physics. So whose job is it?

Yours.

If there is something that you feel needs exploring, explore it!
That's how new discoveries are made.

Brian
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Josef Matz - 24 Aug 2005 07:47 GMT
> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

I explain it to you, how it works. Inhomogene waves have a komplex
propagation vector.
Because the propagation vector is complex, the dispersion relation is
complex.
Those waves have been traditionally named inhomogenous waves. Their
difference to homogeneous
waves is, that the amplitude decreases exponentially in a certain direction.
You find inhomogeneous
waves in all media inclusive vacuum. While homogeneous vacuum waves travel
exactly at c, inhomogeneous vacuum waves travel with superluminal
velocities. When two inhomogeneous waves overlap, even nearly
infinite velocities can be reached --> Nimtz experiment.

There also exists a special type of wave, often referred to as bonded
surface plasmons.
It is nothing else than a inhomogenous wave with a propagation direction
parallel to the surface and the exponential decrease perpendicular away from
the surface. A photon in the case of the Nimtz double
prism experiment just stays a short time in this wave and this causes the
difference between nearly infinite
and infinite signal group velocity. The infinite part comes from an overlap
of an ingoing an reflected
inhomogene waves in the vacuum between two prisms.

Even though in a fiber we have other wave forms than inhomogene plane waves
which is difficult math,
the princile can be taken to illustrate this. The modulation of light speed
in vacuum is caused by different
real and imaginary parts of the propagation vector. There is a degree of
freedom for it.
In media, you have always inhomogene waves due to absorption. Here you have
also a degree of freedom
in the angle between the direction vectors of real and imaginary part of the
propagation vector.
You can control them for eample via a variation of the incident beam angle
or other possibilities depending
on certain equipment. But the key behind the propagation mechanism is always
the same. Its the complex dispersion relation, which always have one degree
of freedom in a certain material.

Josef
John Savard - 25 Aug 2005 18:26 GMT
>http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>A "popular misconception"? uhhhh....when did this change?

It hasn't, yet, as far as the received opinion of most scientists is
concerned.

*However*, there is one result that has some scientists wondering.

If a process generates a particle and an antiparticle such that their
combined angular momentum is zero, but each one has a spin of its own
(they being equal and opposite)... and the two particles go off in
opposite directions...

and then you measure the polarization of both particles at the same
time, as they are some distance from each other,

both will _always_ have spin up, or spin down - if that's what you
measure at both ends.

What one would have expected is that the "real" spin of the two
particles might have been, say, 37 degrees off the vertical, and the act
of measuring if they have spin up or down would then have led to odds of
the sine of 37 degrees squared for each particle *individually*.

Of course, if the particles cheated - and were carrying along two
identical books explaining exactly what to do if any conceivable
measurement were made on them - this is called "hidden variables" - this
result could be obtained without faster-than-light communications
between the particles.

Then, in that case, if you gradually change from measuring the spins in
the same direction to measuring them in the opposite direction, you have
a probability of crossing the sudden jump from "point to the top of the
apparatus" to "point to the bottom of the apparatus". So the probability
of a mismatch should go linearly as the discrepancy in angle increases.
(Bell's inequality.)

Not as the square of the discrepancy, as would be expected if particle 2
"really" had the (exact opposite of the) spin measured for particle 1.

Well, the experiment's been done. And it *is* the square of the
discrepancy.

But the official word is still that, NO, the particles aren't
communicating faster than light, reality is just "nonlocal", and we're
just too stupid to understand or imagine what that really means in a
Universe which is still 100% relative, and where being able to go faster
than light _therefore_ means being able to go back in time and kill your
maternal grandmother.

The term "popular misconception" is the problem here. This implies folk
origins, when in fact, if 'nothing can ever go faster than light' _is_ a
misconception (which is indeed possible in view of the above) it is a
misconception with *elite* origins among real scientists. If scientists
want to admit they were wrong, well, that's part of the scientific
process. But trying to shift the blame onto someone else, well, that's
just too much!

John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
Skywise - 25 Aug 2005 20:55 GMT
<Snipola of description of entanglement>
I wasn't planning on bringing up entanglement because, as you
said, we just don't know what's going on there yet.

> The term "popular misconception" is the problem here. This implies folk
> origins, when in fact, if 'nothing can ever go faster than light' _is_ a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> process. But trying to shift the blame onto someone else, well, that's
> just too much!

That's a differnent take on the same concerns as I have. I just
don't understand where they get off saying that "nothing can go
faster than light" is a popular misconception! There appears to
be no basis for such a statement.

It bothers me because there's too much pseudoscientific poppycock
as it is. We don't need science stories on science news websites
spreading even more fallacies. Things keep going they way they are
and REAL science is going to become a secret black art!

Brian
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Don Klipstein - 28 Aug 2005 05:55 GMT
>>http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>result could be obtained without faster-than-light communications
>between the particles.

 Heisenberg's "Uncertainty Principle" not only states a minimum degree of
uncertainty (and I believe varying with requirement of accuracy or degree
of probability of your measurements being "accurate") of some combination
of position and momentum of a particle, but also that measurement can
disturb the particle in position and momentum - as in vector value of
momentum, which means its course can be changed.  I would think that
measurement-dependent spin descrepancies can similarly result (with spin
descrepancy being in new spin of the measurement equipment, and with such
particle-level-spin added to a piece of lab equipment measurement of
change of spin of a piece of lab equiopment is inherently merely a part of
"theoretical noise" in such measurements if they become possible at all).

>then, in that case, if you gradually change from measuring the spins in
>the same direction to measuring them in the opposite direction, you have
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>than light _therefore_ means being able to go back in time and kill your
>maternal grandmother.

<SNIP>
>John Savard

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
 
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