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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / April 2008



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Looking for books dealing with Permian period fauna and earlier     periods

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nx1972@hotmail.com - 27 Mar 2008 12:33 GMT
After watching the BBC's excellent "Walking with Monsters" series, I
developed an interest in several types of fauna pre-existing the
dinosaurs. These were the arthropods such as Arthropleura,
Anomalocaris, Brontoscorpio, Pterygotus(and other Eurypterids). Then
vertabrates like Dimetrodon, Diictodon, and Synapsids such as the
genera Gorgonopsida and other Therapsids.

What i'd like to know is are there any books in print which deal with
these animals in the same loving attention to detail as given to the
Dinosaurs? I know there're acodemic papers that've been published on
the above mentioned fauna but they're not necassarily available to
ther public at large.
Andy - 27 Mar 2008 14:49 GMT
Well, even though it is primarily about the end-Permian extinction,
<i>Gorgon</i> by Peter Ward does describe quite an array of Permian
fauna found in South Africa.  It's a really well-written book as well.
nx1972@hotmail.com - 28 Mar 2008 00:13 GMT
> Well, even though it is primarily about the end-Permian extinction,
> <i>Gorgon</i> by Peter Ward does describe quite an array of Permian
> fauna found in South Africa.  It's a really well-written book as well.

Aside from the Gorgonopsids does the book discuss in any detail the
cynodonts in which current fossil evidence shows to be the group of
synapsids from which mammals descended.

Actually now that I think about it what's the current state of
knowledge(including both fossil evidence and the most upto date and
excepted theory about cynodonts) in regards to Cynodonts and the
mammaliforms from which the first mammals arose? How good is the
relevant information over at the Wikipedia website?
Andy - 28 Mar 2008 02:00 GMT
On Mar 27, 7:13 pm, nx1...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > Well, even though it is primarily about the end-Permian extinction,
> > <i>Gorgon</i> by Peter Ward does describe quite an array of Permian
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> mammaliforms from which the first mammals arose? How good is the
> relevant information over at the Wikipedia website?

The book "Gorgon" isn't necessarily about any one particular animal.
It's more of a description of the field experience Ward had while
looking for information on the end-Permian extinction.  In that sense,
he does describe several creatures (Gorgons, cynodonts, dicynodonts,
and other Permian fauna) that they discovered in the Karoo desert of
South Africa.  It really is a great easy read as Ward is a wonderful
writer.  In addition to his description of field experiences, he also
adds his interpretation and thoughts about what was found.

As for the second question, my "expertise" (as it were) does not delve
into the Permian much.  My main area of interest lies chiefly with the
ceratopsian dinosaurs as well as trilobites.  But that doesn't stop me
from reading about pretty much anything paleontological.  The more you
read, the more you'll find that there are a lot of opinions about any
one thing.  But that's pretty normal.

Andy
Andy - 27 Mar 2008 14:53 GMT
As far as pre-Permian arthropods go, <i>Wonderful Life</i> by Stephen
Gould is a great text as arthropods figured predominate in the Burgess
Shale.  Also, <i>Trilobite: Eyewitness to Evolution</i> by Richard
Fortey is a wonderful description of trilobites.
Edward  Hennessey - 27 Mar 2008 17:37 GMT
> After watching the BBC's excellent "Walking with Monsters" series, I
> developed an interest in several types of fauna pre-existing the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the above mentioned fauna but they're not necassarily available to
> ther public at large.

Look at "The Great Dying". As far as the accessibility of professional
monographs
on this material, they're as close as interlibrary loan or a larger
university.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey
nx1972@hotmail.com - 28 Mar 2008 00:07 GMT
> Look at "The Great Dying". As far as the accessibility of professional
> monographs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Edward Hennessey

Could you be a bit more specific in the title please and what's the
authors name please. As I found over at amazon.com there are a number
of books with that name in there title(including one which appears to
be a book by a creationist trying prove that bull sh.t known as
"Intelligent design").
Edward  Hennessey - 29 Mar 2008 02:04 GMT
>> Look at "The Great Dying". As far as the accessibility of professional
>> monographs
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> be a book by a creationist trying prove that bull sh.t known as
> "Intelligent design").

NX:

Frankly, my rested recollection has better fallen on this volume
http://www.summize.com/product/when-life-nearly-died--the-greatest-mass-extincti
on-of-all-time/paperback/050028573x

which you can find at Amazon for a little more than $14.
You might also want to look at the copious citations that can be found by
perusing these search results:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22permian+extinction%22+bibliography&btnG=
Search


If you are in America and can plan a safari, you might want to take a look
at the
Permian material available in the west central states.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey
Andy - 29 Mar 2008 02:40 GMT
On Mar 28, 9:04 pm, "Edward  Hennessey"
<halozzyzxhaloMINUS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <nx1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree.  "When Life Nearly Died" is an excellent book.  I suppose I
was on a end-Permian extinction kick because I read this book around
the same time I read "Gorgon."  Both are highly recommended.

Andy
John Harshman - 29 Mar 2008 18:36 GMT
> After watching the BBC's excellent "Walking with Monsters" series, I
> developed an interest in several types of fauna pre-existing the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the above mentioned fauna but they're not necassarily available to
> ther public at large.

Not a book, but try this:

http://www.palaeos.com/
rms - 04 Apr 2008 16:08 GMT
Here's one book on the Permian extinction itself:
_Extinction:  How Life on Earth nearly ended 250 million years ago_, Douglas
H. Erwin

Someone else mentioned _Gorgon_, Peter Ward.  As I recall this book takes
issue with the theories of a famous lady researcher out of California (sorry
for the vagueness.  If someone can summarize his argument, mostly contained
in the last couple chapters of the book, I'd appreciate it.  It had to do
with the O2 levels at the time, that they dropped dramatically at the
Permian transition.  If someone could go over or give links why Triassic
rocks are red worldwide and Jurassic generally yellow I'd appreciate that
too).

Anyway, in regards to this lady researcher, a recent Discovery Channel
special called The Day the Earth Nearly Died
http://shopping.discovery.com/product-38903.html?jzid=40588004-59-0
covered her (and other's) recent theories about how a large asteroid hit on
one side of the earth caused the creation of the Siberian Traps lava fields
on the other side, causing global warming, this allowing lethal
hydrogen-sulfide-producing organisms in the seas to multiply, wiping out
most sealife.

By the way, early in this same show a diamond mine in Canada was discussed,
and how these diamonds were almost certainly created by a large asteroid
impact, I believe well before the Permian.  This is interesting because I
distinctly recall these diamonds being mentioned in one of the John McPhee
_Annals of the Former World_ books:   how they were created by a fluke
internal event, a super-heated shaft directly from the mantle to the surface
(there was a technical term for it).  A wild, what-the-hell-I-have-no-idea
theory probably from before large asteroid impacts were taken seriously.

Also, you mentioned the ancestors of mammals.  There is a book called _After
the Dinosaurs: the age of mammals_, Prothero

rms
Aidan Karley - 05 Apr 2008 15:43 GMT
> By the way, early in this same show a diamond mine in Canada was discussed,
> and how these diamonds were almost certainly created by a large asteroid
> impact, I believe well before the Permian.

      I'm not particularly worried one way or the other about Ward's oxygen
vs other people's H2S hypotheses, but I'd be surprised by the assertion of an
asteroid impact causing the creation (or even eruption of) these
diamondiferous kimberlites. What I've seen of the reported geology of the area
contains no reference to the extensive signs that an impact would leave
behind.
      Take one large pinch of salt there.
     
Signature

Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Sat, 05 Apr 2008 14:56 +0100, but posted later.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

rms - 05 Apr 2008 19:32 GMT
>> By the way, early in this same show a diamond mine in Canada was
>> discussed,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> contains no reference to the extensive signs that an impact would leave
> behind.

   I'd have to see the show again to get the name of the mine, but it had
the researchers talking in a mineshaft very far down, and speaking of how
unlikely it used to seem to find evidence of an impact so deep.

rms
rms - 05 Apr 2008 20:26 GMT
>    I'd have to see the show again to get the name of the mine, but it had
> the researchers talking in a mineshaft very far down, and speaking of how
> unlikely it used to seem to find evidence of an impact so deep.

   Luann Becker is the researcher, btw.

rms
Aidan Karley - 07 Apr 2008 02:37 GMT
> Luann Becker is the researcher, btw.

      A penguin-botherer it would seem. affiliations include a NASA
Exobiology programme, with which Peter Ward is (has been) associated.
Interesting collection of papers on her web pages - I'll have a good
read tomorrow.
     
Signature

Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Mon, 07 Apr 2008 01:08 +0100, but posted later.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Aidan Karley - 07 Apr 2008 02:37 GMT
> I'd have to see the show again to get the name of the mine, but it had
> the researchers talking in a mineshaft very far down, and speaking of how
> unlikely it used to seem to find evidence of an impact so deep.

ISTR that all the diamond mining in Canada is opencast?

Ah, a few minutes thinking in the bath and the answer came to me : you're
mis-remembering someone talking in one of the nickel mines around Sudbury,
Ontario. They do have significant underground workings [TTBOMK ... checking,
a 2005 seminar says "Today, Incosrc="/NRs Sudbury operations consist of six
underground mines, one mill, one smelter and one refinery," cite
ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/12/12.753/s05/imagegallery/pages/20.html ], and the
Sudbury structure is generally accepted as being the result of an impact
(www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/images/sudbury.htm) of considerable age
(1830Ma according to the impacts database ; clearly before the Grenvillian-
oriented deformation of the structure).

Signature

Aidan Karley,
Aberdeen, Scotland
Written at Sun, 06 Apr 2008 23:08 +0100, but posted later.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

 
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