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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / April 2008



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Ancient American feces - fossilized or not?

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Matt - 04 Apr 2008 00:09 GMT
http://www.livescience.com/history/080403-ap-fossil-feces.html

This article calls the new feces found in Oregon and dated to 14,000
YBP "fossils" and "coprolites," yet also says DNA was extracted.  Only
one of those statement can be true, right?
John Harshman - 04 Apr 2008 18:03 GMT
> http://www.livescience.com/history/080403-ap-fossil-feces.html
>
> This article calls the new feces found in Oregon and dated to 14,000
> YBP "fossils" and "coprolites," yet also says DNA was extracted.  Only
> one of those statement can be true, right?

Wrong. "Fossilized" merely means "preserved". Some fossils are
relatively unaltered from their original condition. Others contain none
of the original material. There's no reason a fossil can't contain DNA.
Edward  Hennessey - 04 Apr 2008 18:34 GMT
> http://www.livescience.com/history/080403-ap-fossil-feces.html
>
> This article calls the new feces found in Oregon and dated to 14,000
> YBP "fossils" and "coprolites," yet also says DNA was extracted.  Only
> one of those statement can be true, right?

M:

My short answer would be "no". First, "coprolite" is an applicable and
inclusive word here.

But a longer answer depends what you mean by "fossil". In general, things
younger than about
10,000 years (Holocene epoch) are often termed "sub-fossil". By this
definitional test,
your coprolite is a fossil.

Please note that some forms---under the right conditions of
preservation--may be mineralized within the arbitrarily
indicated sub-fossil period. The decapod crustacean Thalassina from the
richly mineralized
waters of the mangrove swamps in Australia are a nice example of younger
material
which attains a hard preservation quite quickly.

As to the DNA issue, I am sure it was extracted. In fact, DNA from various
other
animals which may have perhaps visited the cave to urinate was also found in
these
analyses. What condition, what completeness the examined DNA reflected is
another
question given the degradation one would expect it to undergo with time.
Nonetheless,
it would follow that the DNA obtained was significant enough to
make isolated species differentiations with assurance.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey
Matt - 06 Apr 2008 05:46 GMT
On Apr 4, 11:34 am, "Edward  Hennessey"
<halozzyzxhaloMINUS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >http://www.livescience.com/history/080403-ap-fossil-feces.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Edward Hennessey

Appreciated.  I always thought the definition of a "fossil" was that
all the original organic matter had been replaced by minerals.
Otherwise, words like subfossil were appropriate.
Edward  Hennessey - 06 Apr 2008 22:25 GMT
> On Apr 4, 11:34 am, "Edward  Hennessey"
> <halozzyzxhaloMINUS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> all the original organic matter had been replaced by minerals.
> Otherwise, words like subfossil were appropriate.

M:

Understandable, that is the impression of "petrified". In fact, it is
fascinating how small that percentage change may
be in the composition of an item millions of years old, depending on the
original constitution of that fossil
and how it was preserved. A motley group of things for you to have fun
reasoning about would be
tar-pit animals, mammoths in ice, insects in amber, teeth, echinoderm tests,
phosphatic preservation, psuedomorphosis, etcetera.

Thank you for the group activity,

Edward Hennessey
 
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