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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / August 2008News: Britain's last Neanderthals were more sophisticated than we thought
Britain's last Neanderthals were more sophisticated than we thought An archaeological excavation at a site near Pulborough, West Sussex, has thrown remarkable new light on the life of northern Europe's last Neanderthals. It provides a snapshot of a thriving, developing population - rather than communities on the verge of extinction. "The tools we've found at the site are technologically advanced and potentially older than tools in Britain belonging to our own species, Homo sapiens," says Dr Matthew Pope of Archaeology South East based at the UCL Institute of Archaeology. "It's exciting to think that there's a real possibility these were left by some of the last Neanderthal hunting groups to occupy northern Europe. The impression they give is of a population in complete command of both landscape and natural raw materials with a flourishing technology - not a people on the edge of extinction." The team, led by Dr Pope and funded by English Heritage, is undertaking the first modern, scientific investigation of the site since its original discovery in 1900. During the construction of a monumental house known as 'Beedings' some 2,300 perfectly preserved stone tools were removed from fissures encountered in the foundation trenches. Only recently were the tools recognised for their importance. Research by Roger Jacobi of the Leverhulme-funded Ancient Human Occupation of Britain (AHOB) Project showed conclusively that the Beedings material has strong affinities with other tools from northern Europe dating back to between 35,000 and 42,000 years ago. The collection of tools from Beedings is more diverse and extensive than any other found in the region and therefore offers the best insight into the technologically advanced cultures which occupied Northern Europe before the accepted appearance of our own species. "Dr Jacobi's work showed the clear importance of the site," says Dr Pope. "The exceptional collection of tools appears to represent the sophisticated hunting kit of Neanderthal populations which were only a few millennia from complete disappearance in the region. Unlike earlier, more typical Neanderthal tools these were made with long, straight blades - blades which were then turned into a variety of bone and hide processing implements, as well as lethal spear points. "There were some questions about the validity of the earlier find, but our excavations have proved beyond doubt that the material discovered here was genuine and originated from fissures within the local sandstone. We also discovered older, more typical Neanderthal tools, deeper in the fissure. Clearly, Neanderthal hunters were drawn to the hill over a long period time, presumably for excellent views of the game-herds grazing on the plains below the ridge." The excavations suggest the site may not be unique. Similar sites with comparable fissure systems are thought to exist across south east England. The project now aims to prospect more widely across the region for similar sites. Barney Sloane, Head of Historic Environment Commissions at English Heritage, said: "Sites such as this are extremely rare and a relatively little considered archaeological resource. Their remains sit at a key watershed in the evolutionary history of northern Europe. The tools at Beedings could equally be the signature of pioneer populations of modern humans, or traces of the last Neanderthal hunting groups to occupy the region. This study offers a rare chance to answer some crucial questions about just how technologically advanced Neanderthals were, and how they compare with our own species." Source: University College London - UCL http://www.physorg.com/news133427782.html  SignaturePosted by Robert Karl Stonjek On Jun 23, 9:14�pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <ston...@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > Britain's last Neanderthals were more sophisticated than we thought > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Posted by > Robert Karl Stonjek Hello Robert K. Stonjek, First of all, I really love reading your intriguing articles, many thanks for posting them. But here I'm a bit skeptical since it's well known that at one time both "older Homo Sapiens", (H.S.), and Neanderthals, (H.N.), made and used similar Mousterian/Chatelperronian tools so I need to ask, were there any Neanderthal skeletal material also found at this site? > But here I'm a bit skeptical since it's well known that at one time > both "older Homo Sapiens", (H.S.), and Neanderthals, (H.N.), made and > used similar Mousterian/Chatelperronian tools so I need to ask, were > there any Neanderthal skeletal material also found at this site? Given the era, do we have any H. Sapiens remains in West Europe? Last year, they reported finding a fire circle on the Arctic coast from 38kya. No caves in the area. Either H. Sapiens moved really fast from a beach head in Anatolia, or it was left by Neanderthals. Course, were the global economy to collapse now, archeologists would look at all the remains of European culture all over the planet and conclude the whole thing was run by white people. Without considering how non-whites found the artifacts useful. ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ---- http://www.pronews.com offers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups > DAY BROWN writes; Given the era, do we have any H. Sapiens remains in West Europe? =================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Hello Day Brown, First of all TY for your prompt reply. You asked do we have plenty of H. Sapiens in west Europe? Yes, plenty! In fact the DNA of Cro Magnon I heard matches up with modern DNA living in the English Isles today and among other neighboring areas. They apparently loved to travel. (wink) ============================================= >DAY BROWN writes; Last year, they reported finding a fire circle on the Arctic coast > from 38kya. No caves in the area. Either H. Sapiens moved really fast > from a beach head in Anatolia, or it was left by Neanderthals. >============================================== GOLDLIONS writes; I read on a BBC NEWS link that some Bone spearheads date HOMO SAPIENS living in Britain to 31,000 years ago, 4,000 years later than the earliest finds of modern humans in Europe...... Like I said before, it's apparent that these guys didn't stay at home much....... ================================================ DAY BROWN writes; Course, were the global economy to collapse now, archeologists would > look at all the remains of European culture all over the planet and > conclude the whole thing was run by white people. Without considering > how non-whites found the artifacts useful. ===================================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Excellent point DAY, but what has H.S. learned from Neanderthal? So far no one really knows except at one time they shared the same tooling industry. However one thing is clear, they didn't seem to feel any need to invent more than what they felt was necessary living day by day even after 500,000 years time? > GOLDLIONS writes; Excellent point DAY, but what has H.S. learned from > Neanderthal? So far no one really knows except at one time they shared > the same tooling industry. However one thing is clear, they didn't > seem to feel any need to invent more than what they felt was necessary > living day by day even after 500,000 years time? Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think about how to make a stone point. Which is why it didnt change. But what the HSS prolly got from the HNS was clothing technology. In any case, I dont think we have enuf samples from either line in Europe to know much of what was going on. Where'd the Kennewick man come from? I've not read any report on his DNA yet. Part of the problem I've read is that only the mtDNA is stable enuf to examine. Which is curious when all the reports are about MEN. Wasson "Persephone's Quest" shows us rock art at the arctic circle just 500 mi West of the Bearing strait that depict Amanita Muscaria. which never grew that far north. I've read also of minerals in the teeth that show that male skeletons found in England grew up near the Mediterranean. This sorta jives with "Pappillon", about an escapee from Devil's Island that made it to the South American coast and lived with an Indian tribe, even siring kids. But according to Kauffman, "The Origins of Order", without some further input of genes from an innovative line, they just get washed out in a large population. How far we can apply this is moot cause we really dont know how many hominids of whatever kind existed in Ice Age Europe largely because the glaciers kept coming down and driving everyone down to the Mediterranean. I've read of the Neanderthal hybrid child found in Portugal, and more recently an apparently hybrid skull found in central Europe. but we really dont have enuf samples to know whether these were just isolated mutants that died out, or whether their DNA still remains in the Native European gene pool. Kauffman says dramatic mutation occurs in small isolated gene pools, and so far as we can tell, this was the case for both the HNS and the HSS in Europe. So, we cant tell if the changes seen are the result of local mutation or hybridization or both. Its perhaps more useful to examine hybridization between species in general, in which we see lotsa fertile males, but very few of the females because of the much more complex reproductive system. So, if hybridization was going on, we'd expect to see lotsa Y chromosome lines in Native Europeans, but very few mtDNA lines. this is, in fact, the case. Sykes, "The Seven Daughters of Eve" says there are only seven progeniture female lines that existed in Europe from 50,000 to 10,000 BP. Why else are there only 7? ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ---- http://www.pronews.com offers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups > > GOLDLIONS writes; Excellent point DAY, but what has H.S. learned from > > Neanderthal? So far no one really knows except at one time they shared > > the same tooling industry. However one thing is clear, they didn't > > seem to feel any need to invent more than what they felt was necessary > > living day by day even after 500,000 years time? =============================== DAY BROWN writes; Much of the HNS behavior was instinctive; they didnt havta think > about how to make a stone point. Which is why it didnt change. =========================== GOLDLIONS writes; While I wouldn't doubt Homo Sapiens Neanderthal, (H.S.N.), relied more on instinct than Homo Sapiens, (H.S.), I'm fairly confident that like H.S. and the "higher" primates, Neanderthals also relied on what behaviors they picked up from the adults which include fashioning various tools. ================================ DAY BROWN writes; But what the HSS prolly got from the HNS was clothing technology. =============================== GOLDLIONS writes; Personally I think it's more like the other way around. From what I've read so far, only the Homo sapiens sites offer up samples of bone/stone needles which were used to fashion clothing and similar goods. If there's some new data I've missed regarding Neanderthal "sewing needles" please do post a link. =============================== DAY BROWN writes; Where'd the Kennewick man come from? I've not read any report on > his DNA yet. ==================== GOLDLIONS writes; It's unfortunate what four DNA extraction's made on the Kennewick Metacarpal didn't yield enough detailed information with the present technology. I've also read that what fragmented bits of DNA that were uncovered may been contaminated. ============================== DAY BROWN writes; Part of the problem I've read is that only the mtDNA > is stable enuf to examine. Which is curious when all the reports > are about MEN. ========================= GOLDLIONS writes; In 1997, Paavo, a pioneer in the field of fossil DNA research sequenced MITOCHONDRIAL Neanderthal DNA. Later he and his colleagues worked on the Nuclear (Y) DNA of male Neanderthals. Biased on these first attempts, the results seem to show that there's no "line of decent" from Neanderthal trickling into the modern gene pool. What was really intriguing were the results of the Y male Neanderthal genome. The findings indicate what had made a male Neanderthal a male Neanderthal was vastly different from what makes a male Homo Sapiens a male Homo Sapiens. The upshot here is, should there had been any hybrids produced between Neanderthal and Homo sapiens union, it's highly unlikely that there were any "Neanderthal Dads" in the picture. =============================== DAY BROWN writes; Wasson "Persephone's Quest" shows us rock art at the arctic circle > just 500 mi West of the Bearing strait that depict Amanita Muscaria. > which never grew that far north. ================================ GOLDLIONS writes; Sounds like a fasinating read, one worth looking into, thanks. Personally I wouldn't be surprised that the ancient European shamans were very similar to those of the ancient American Indian cultures. ============================== DAY BROWN writes; I've read also of minerals in the > teeth that show that male skeletons found in England grew up near > the Mediterranean. This sorta jives with "Pappillon", about an > escapee from Devil's Island that made it to the South American > coast and lived with an Indian tribe, even siring kids. ========================== GOLDLIONS writes; I've read similar stories, one which involved a European man that once lived among some Cannibals for some time and even had a native wife which eventually saved him from a bite of some poisonous snake. Sadly, the title of this paperback, complete with photos, eludes me. ============================== DAY BROWN writes; I've read of the Neanderthal hybrid child found in Portugal, and > more recently an apparently hybrid skull found in central Europe. > but we really dont have enuf samples to know whether these were > just isolated mutants that died out, or whether their DNA still > remains in the Native European gene pool. =========================== GOLDLIONS writes; Till there is actual DNA evidence that this boy's skeleton proves that it is an actual hybrid, I can't get too excited about it. The same applies with the other find. =============================== DAY BROWN writes; So, if hybridization was going on, we'd expect to see lotsa Y > chromosome lines in Native Europeans, but very few mtDNA lines. ============================ GOLDLIONS writes; Again according to Paavo's team findings, especially concerning the male Neanderthal genome, there's probably no interbreeding between the two hominids. In fact when there were some comparisons made with Neanderthal, Human, and Chimp genomes, it showed that at multiple locations, that the Neanderthal DNA sequences matched up with chimp DNA and not with human.... ================================ DAY BROWN writes; this is, in fact, the case. Sykes, "The Seven Daughters of Eve" says there are only seven progeniture female lines that existed in Europe from 50,000 to 10,000 BP. Why else are there only 7? =================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Hard to say at this point It's all a crapshoot. Perhaps only these 7 lineages survived by having better understandings of herbal medicines, and knowledge of the land and where to locate edible foodstuffs when times were harder along with a higher birth rate of offspring that lived longer which in turn did likewise by being able to pass down such knowledge to their offspring orally. Perhaps these women also had stronger family/tribal ties with their offspring bearing extremely aggressive males which eventually replaced the earlier hominids into oblivion. > says there are only seven progeniture female lines that existed > in Europe from 50,000 to 10,000 BP. Why else are there only 7? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > offspring bearing extremely aggressive males which eventually replaced > the earlier hominids into oblivion. That has never happened anywhere else on the planet despite hominids have often moved into novel ecosystems. Moreover, Sykes says they lived in Europe some time between 50,000 BP to the most recent, 10,000 BP. The latter obviously came in from Anatolia when agriculture was introduced. But the former? 50,000 years ago, the *ONLY* hominids living in Europe were Neanderthals. As you suggest, a male hybrid would be unlikely, and we'd expect any attempted female hybrids to be infertile. But the Neanderthal/homo Hidelburgensis had been there for hundreds of thousands of years, ie, a million generations. Like Africa, there should be over 100 mtDNA lines. While we think of lone male explorers, or some patriarch like Abraham. but now with over 60 Semitic Y chromosome lines, we know the patriarchic idea is nuts. And when we look at migration in more recent times we see the women moving with the men. The notion that the first Homo Sampiens men didnt bring their women is absurd. But what killed them off if not the hybridization process? Warriors kill the men, but steal the women. So, in many places, there are more mtDNA lines than Y chromosome. Which answers the question of why we dont see any men in America like the Kennewick man. Genocide is not new. He looks to me like he is Ainu, who we know were eradicated from the West coast of the Pacific. Why not the East Coast? Because nobody wants to think about Native Americans committing genocide. Despite the obvious history of just that going on. I am also suspicious of the knee jerk rejection of hybridization so as to not disturb Christian sensibilities. DAY BROWN writes; > The latter obviously came in from Anatolia when agriculture was > introduced. But the former? 50,000 years ago, the *ONLY* hominids living > in Europe were Neanderthals. As you suggest, a male hybrid would be > unlikely, and we'd expect any attempted female hybrids to be infertile. (((((((GOLDLIONS wrote; Again according to Paavo's team findings, especially concerning the male Neanderthal genome, there's probably no interbreeding between the two hominids. In fact when there were some comparisons made with Neanderthal, Human, and Chimp genomes, it showed that at multiple locations, that the Neanderthal DNA sequences matched up with chimp DNA and not with human....)))))))) ====================================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Dear Day: Please re read what I had written before, I did not write that there would NOT be any male Neanderthal/Sapiens HYBRIDS should such an unlikely union occur. Based on PAAVO's research, it appears that the MALE Neanderthal genome is vastly different from a MALE Homo Sapiens genome. Then Homo Sapiens would probably end up being be the "Dad" of such a hybrid and not a male Neanderthal.... Especially if this hybrid was fertile which eventually had offspring that trickled into the modern human gene pool. Perhaps the REAL underlying reason for no MALE Neanderthal/female Sapiens unions was all a matter of PHERMONE preference? Genetically Chimps are 98% close to us, Neanderthal is 99%. ( So even that one percent can mean a lot.) I'm speculating if those triangular projections found only within the front of the Neanderthal nasal cavity from either side had some unique purpose OTHER than helping them breathe cold dry air. Strangely these projections are not seen in modern peoples or apes skulls or in the skulls of other ancient human ancestors. Did Neanderthal once possess well developed VOMERAL NASAL ORGANS behind those triangular projections? If so, were Neanderthal males only interested with FEMALE Neanderthals in "estrus" and perhaps didn't have a need to marry? If this IS the case then maybe, just maybe our species PERMONES just didn't "smell right" to Neanderthal? Especially to the male Neanderthal? In modern humans it's debatable whether or not there is a presence of the vomeral nasal system in adults so knowing WHEN a woman is fertile would be rather tricky. So for H.S.S. to ensure that his choice of a mate or mates would bear HIS offspring, "marriage unions" were formed out of a necessity helping ensure better survival rates for his offspring/s? By exchanging longer periods of protection, shelter, along with sharing foodstuffs and other goods was also a huge benefit for the female/s as well. > Perhaps the REAL underlying reason for no MALE Neanderthal/female > Sapiens unions was all a matter of PHERMONE preference? How about Neanderthal Endogenous Retrovirus? Maybe Cro-Magnon Man had a very good reason for exterminating the Neanderthal. If AIDS is an endogenous chimp retrovirus, it is possible that closely related hominids posed similar dangers to each other. John Savard > > Perhaps the REAL underlying reason for no MALE Neanderthal/female > > Sapiens unions was all a matter of PHERMONE preference? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John Savard =============================================== Hello John, GREAT post BTW, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if you're right about that. Judging by what was left behind at many Neanderthal sites, it's pretty obvious that these ancients didn't practice the best hygienic habits. They were probably highly promiscuous, (not restricted to one mate or group), and over time new viruses and bacteria may had mutated which became increasingly more virulent similar to what we see in many countries today dealing with the AIDS crisis and other forms of VD. Heck, along with other diseases, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this could had been a big factor of what really helped prompt their demise. Who knows? Perhaps if N/H.S. ever made such bodily contact with each other, maybe this was how such diseases such as Syphilis, Gonorrhea originated from? I don't know but I wonder if this could had been played a big part of what other factors that helped speed their demise. Ice age Europe had small gene pools in isolation and quarantine for 5 months of every winter. No woman would want more than 2 kids by any given sperm donor. They were too inbred as it was. No STD or other disease could remain in a gene pool if it was very debilitating in a population that was barely making it as it was. The trouble began with civilization and dramatically increased trade with men moving from one community to the next while still in a contagious state. We already know there were two strains of syphilis that didnt cause much of a problem. It was when the New World strain hybridized with the Old that things got serious. So also with all the other diseases. There is a global race on now to find new ways to fight pathogens because hominids did not evolve as mass herd animals with the same kind of robust immune systems. DAY BROWN writes; The notion that the first Homo Sampiens men didnt bring their women is absurd. ========================= Fully agree, this confused me as well because I paid $107.00 for A National Geographic Genome kit to trace my mtDNA roots and also one for my brother to trace the Y. The results were the same Haplogroup yet the male PATH was completley different! This boggled both of our minds. How can they be so far apart yet belong to the same Halogroup? Very odd IMO. > DAY BROWN writes; The notion that > the first Homo Sampiens men didnt bring their women is absurd. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > apart yet belong to the same Halogroup? > Very odd IMO. Start with "Sperm Wars". Some are fast, some are long lived, some are only there to impede other sperm. Why would the latter evolve unless other sperm from another donor was there? Next, there is no "moment of conception". Its an enzymatic process and it takes enuf time that sometimes more than one sperm gets in. If all are XX or XY, no biggie, nobody notices. But if not, then you get a kid with XXY, and often obvious hermaphroditism. I have met two hermaphrodites in different states because I am well connected with the gay community which does not freak out at freaks. On that basis alone the odds are that it is much more common than polite Christian company will admit. Now, if the sperm that gets in are from different donors, things get even more interesting. DNA dont zip together like a new jacket, but an old one, with loops hung out there to splice up with whatever haplotype is handy at the time. Which need not be Homo Sapiens. You only need short snippets of DNA to fit, and the number of chromosomes does not matter. Another clue is that 20-25% of the Y chromosome found does not come from where the genealogy record says. Some of this could certainly be because of cuckholdry, but some as well from the inevitable shuffling that occurs during the confusing DNA matching process. Lets remember also that the samples of Neanderthal skulls we have is not necessarily representative of a breed we know lived in small gene pools that was widely dispersed from Portugal all the way to Uzbekistan. and in the case of the latter, hybridization could have begun even before the Tuba eruption. There's a curious extinction of Homo Sapiens shortly after they met the Neanderthals in the Levant 120,000 BP. If Homo Sapiens was smarter, how come it was the Neanderthals who stayed on in the Levant? The HNS remains at Shanidar, Iraq, 52kya are a clue. A shaman was buried with seven important medicinal herbs. He suffered some kind of catastrophic injury and survived for years with only one arm functional. Ritually buried. The earliest ritual burials we have were done by Neanderthals. I think we need to rethink how they thought. I've read of Neanderthal hybrid skulls found recently. But we really do not have enuf samples to know what the variation in their line was, so we cant rule out hybridization. The samples we have are too few, too far apart in time and in space to have an accurate concept of Neanderthals. We only need the DNA from a few out of millions of possible matings with Homo Sapiens to have an enormous effect on the gene pool. You mention HNS nasal cavities as if there are no examples of it among those alive now. I was born on a farm in Minnesota in 1939, and worked in clinical settings later, and I've seen lotsa freaks. Nobody has looked to see if Neanderthal throwbacks are still with us. I remember seeing some ugly mugs from the boonies as a kid, but didnt then know what a Neanderthal was. But for sure, they'd like Minnesota. Ever been outside when its 40 to 60 degrees below? Nose hairs freeze together. If you roll your upper lip up, you can press your mustache against your nose to make it more comfortable. Why would Homo Sapiens from Africa have the beards to do this? DAY BROWN writes; Next, there is no "moment of conception". Its an enzymatic process and > it takes enuf time that sometimes more than one sperm gets in. If all > are XX or XY, no biggie, nobody notices. But if not, then you get a kid > with XXY, and often obvious hermaphroditism. ======================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Chimeras and Mosaics can be formed when two eggs that are fertilized by two different sperm become fused into one embryo inside the womb. In fact, frequencies of Chimeraism and Mosaicism may be more common than previously thought. In one article read there are some clues that can show that small groups of genetically mismatched cells might also contribute to other common conditions such as, autism, infertitly, a and Alzheimer's. Another issue is how two genetically different tissues in a single body may pose a problem with some drug/drugs which may explain how some work with some people but not with others, even within the same family. =================== DAY BROWN writes; >I have met two hermaphrodites in different states because I am well connected with the gay community which does not freak out at freaks. > that basis alone the odds are that it is much more common than polite > Christian company will admit. ============================== GOLDLIONS writes; No human being can be perfect IMO, or we wouldn't need DR's, Dentists, Dermatologists, Audiologists, etc.. We all have "something" in this life to deal with. So it would be totally monominded and hypocritical for any person to consider anyone born with some birth defect or condition as a "freak" no matter how severe. They are human beings and should be treated as such. Personally I feel that each of us are here for some purpose in this life and are of some benefit for others in some way or another whether they're a teacher, friend, foe, or whatever, you can learn a lot from them and their actions. Life's a classroom..... IMO, we are meant to care and help one another, kinda like having the "Jesus mindset", the light of eternal mind?.... ;) BTW, If you've met individuals with such a vacous mindset yet consider themselves as "Christians" yet still feel it's OK to look down upon other people with birth defects or conditions, I really feel sorry for them because they really should take a long hard look at the "Chimera or Mosaic in the mirror." ================================ DAY BROWN writes; > Now, if the sperm that gets in are from different donors, things get > even more interesting. DNA dont zip together like a new jacket, but an > old one, with loops hung out there to splice up with whatever haplotype [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be because of cuckholdry, but some as well from the inevitable shuffling > that occurs during the confusing DNA matching process. ============================= GOLDLIONS writes; I've read a little about Parasitic DNA which harbors many proteins of ancient parasites whether it's bacterial or viral in origin. This element/host relationship within our genome is a continuum from former parasitism to some later "mutual agreement of sorts" whether it will be beneficial or otherwise. ======================== DAY BROWN writes;> Lets remember also that the samples of Neanderthal skulls we have is not > necessarily representative of a breed we know lived in small gene pools > that was widely dispersed from Portugal all the way to Uzbekistan. and > in the case of the latter, hybridization could have begun even before > the Tuba eruption. ============================== GOLDLIONS writes; Ah,....just WHAT is it that makes a Neanderthal a Neanderthal? A lot apparently..... Again based on Paavo and his colleague's research, it's pretty evident that they have no relation with any existing moderns today. So until there's actual fossil DNA evidence of such, I cannot get too excited about the possibility of any real H.S. and H. N. hybrids ever occuring from a union between the two hominid species. =============================== DAY BROWN writes; There's a curious extinction of Homo Sapiens shortly > after they met the Neanderthals in the Levant 120,000 BP. > If Homo Sapiens was smarter, how come it was the Neanderthals who stayed > on in the Levant? ============================== GOLDLIONS writes; At one time early Homo Sapiens pretty much used the same Mousterian tool industry and may had lived and hunted in a similar fashion. At this time maybe Homo Sapiens was out numbered and pushed out by their burlesque and hairstute? neighbors and whatever survivors that were left moved to another location merging with other Homo Sapiens clans where new ideas were shared? There's an old saying, "Necessity is the mother of invention" so in order for Homo Sapiens to succeed over their more physically gifted rivals they had to invent better weapons, strategies, and eventually domesticated wild animals,,,,,, whatever,.....it eventually worked. One thing is clear, we are here and not they. ================================ DAY BROWN writes; The HN remains at Shanidar, Iraq, 52kya are a clue. A > shaman was buried with seven important medicinal herbs. He suffered some > kind of catastrophic injury and survived for years with only one arm > functional. Ritually buried. The earliest ritual burials we have were > done by Neanderthals. I think we need to rethink how they thought. =========================== GOLDLIONS writes; Was "Nandy" as this fossil was "affectionally" called, really a shaman, or just an important patriarch? No one really knows. Neanderthals using herbal medicines doesn't really surprise me for even young chimps observed adults eating certain plants and leaves to help expel parasites and upset stomachs. And I'm fairly confident that Neanderthals were much smarter than chimps. =========================== DAY BROWN writes; > You mention HNS nasal cavities as if there are no examples of it among> those alive now. I was born on a farm in Minnesota in 1939, and worked > in clinical settings later, and I've seen lotsa freaks. Nobody has > looked to see if Neanderthal throwbacks are still with us. =============================== GOLDLIONS writes; There were thousands if not millions that had DNA tests done and still there's no relation. According to the experts, there is no other hominid fossil or living peoples or apes that have/had those triangular projections inside the nose like Neanderthal. ========================== DAY BROWN writes; I remember > seeing some ugly mugs from the boonies as a kid, but didnt then know > what a Neanderthal was. But for sure, they'd like Minnesota. Ever been > outside when its 40 to 60 degrees below? Nose hairs freeze together. If > you roll your upper lip up, you can press your mustache against your > nose to make it more comfortable. Why would Homo Sapiens from Africa > have the beards to do this? ============================== GOLDLIONS writes; LOL, well, we all came from an ancient African lineage/s, so why not? Was it for sexual display like male peacocks that sport wild wonderful feathers to attract mates? LOL, Life can be really weird but still wonderful at the same time. :) Polite discourse appreciated. When I was in school, "experts" said plate tectonics was a crank theory. when I was taking psych at the U of MN, experts said that autism was caused by erratic mothering. I could go on. Anyone could. This issue is so loaded with racial pride and religious sensibilities that no academic would risk his career on challenging the conventional lack of wisdom. All the HNS bones ever found would fit in a broom closet. I dont think we have a representative sample, much less from the terminal era when hybridization would have been attempted. And since Homo Sapiens is known to try mating with herbivores, there's no doubt it was attempted. And besides the effect of the microbes you refer to, there is the idea now of "epigenetics", with very little understanding of how that works. I dunno that we will ever sort it out. From the graphics we see, you get the idea that DNA zips together like two ladders. But in fact what is going on is more like dumping two (or more) plates of spaghetti together and then waiting to see what sticks. They've also discovered a lot of "junk DNA" in various places on the strands. There's some notion that this is functional, but not yet unraveled what the functionality is. But another use is as "checksums" affected by epigenetics which sometimes empower, or disempower, certain strands of code. With this, some strands of DNA may remain functional even tho not matched up with any bit of the Y chromosome. The differences account for the fact that brothers do not, in fact, have identical Y chromosome sets of haplotypes. It has all become so complicated that nobody can tell where any given hapotype originated, which is, among other things, challenging the conventional views of what "race" is. My own Y chromosome includes 20 haplotypes that are found in many areas of both Europe and New England. According to the conventional view, there should be one area where a male progeniture came from where all his markers are found in the gene pool. But there is no such place. In like manner, there never was an "Abraham" for the "Jews" to descend from. If the DNA worked the way the "experts" say, there should be complete sets of haplotypes handed down a male line to identify such a forefather. But, there never is. There's just bits of this, or bits of that, which are more or less found in different regions. If we cannot define what the "white race" is, and we cant, then how do we know where it came from? DAY BROWN writes; When I was in school, "experts" said plate tectonics was a crank theory. when I was taking psych at the U of MN, experts said that autism was caused by erratic mothering. I could go on. Anyone could. This issue is so loaded with racial pride and religious sensibilities that no academic would risk his career on challenging the conventional lack of wisdom. ================================ GOLDLIONS writes; Luckily times have changed for the better regarding research since there has been an "explosion" of impressive medical and genetic break throughs. Many thanks to those researchers with open mindsets thinking outside the box. ======================================== DAY BROWN writes; All the HNS bones ever found would fit in a broom closet. I dont think we have a representative sample, much less from the terminal era when hybridization would have been attempted. ========================================= GOLDLIONS writes; If I can recall correctly there are about 100 fossil specimens of Neanderthal remains. Most of these finds are just fragments of bone or teeth and none were complete skeletons. It had to have been hard growing up Neanderthal for about half of them were juveniles or infants. Studies made on their teeth indicate that most of these children died of starvation. =========================================== DAY BROWN wites; And since Homo Sapiens is known to try mating with herbivores, there's no doubt it was attempted. ============================================ GOLDLIONS writes; If there is one thing I DO like about certain religions having basic laws of clean common sense to follow and live by, this is it. All life is special to me and should be respected and not abused. ============================================= DAY BROWN wites; From the graphics we see, you get the idea that DNA zips together like two ladders. But in fact what is going on is more like dumping two (or more) plates of spaghetti together and then waiting to see what sticks. =============================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Along with "broken" or "incomplete" protein links within the DNA which may explain disorders like Altruism ================================================ DAY BROWN writes; some strands of DNA may remain functional even tho not matched up with any bit of the Y chromosome. The differences account for the fact that brothers do not, in fact, have identical Y chromosome sets of haplotypes. It has all become so complicated that nobody can tell where any given hapotype originated, which is, among other things, challenging the conventional views of what "race" is. My own Y chromosome includes 20 haplotypes that are found in many areas of both Europe and New England. According to the conventional view, there should be one area where a male progeniture came from where all his markers are found in the gene pool. But there is no such place. In like manner, there never was an "Abraham" for the "Jews" to descend from. If the DNA worked the way the "experts" say, there should be complete sets of haplotypes handed down a male line to identify such a forefather. But, there never is. There's just bits of this, or bits of that, which are more or less found in different regions. If we cannot define what the "white race" is, and we cant, then how do we know where it came from? ================================================ GOLDLIONS writes; Good question. As you've mentioned above that there's "no single Y route" within any haplotypes so not all peoples who live in cold climates will sport pale blue eyes and light skin/hair. I wonder though if fair skin may have originated from some mutation similar to Leucistic or albinism? Leucistic meaning it has no pigmentation but has blue eyes and not red eyes like true albinos. This condition sometimes can appear among birds, reptiles, and mammals and no one seems to understand why. Concerning Leucistic alligators which are only found in Louisiana it's pretty interesting that all of them are MALE. While this condition would make them more visible to predators, perhaps a similar mutation turned out to be a "mixed blessing" for EARLY H.S. in Europe since it may had helped them absorb vitamin D better than their "normal" more pigmented brethren? Mate selection must had also played a role, for let's face it, blue, green, or hazel eyes can be pretty attractive especially if it wasn't common. And as for Neanderthal skin coloring perhaps instead of being "white" maybe they were gray similar to adult chimps? Why not, for at multiple locations, the Neanderthal DNA sequences matched up with chimp DNA and not with human. So I wonder what would be the out come should some researcher tried placing chimp DNA pigments inside a human cell? Would it also remain "white" because the two are genetically too incompatible? http://video.aol.com/video-detail/belyaev-experiment-docile-foxes/828946643 Is one of the links suggesting where the loss of melanin came from. Falling out of favor, Belyaev was sent to a fox farm in Siberia. Being a geneticist, he started to breed just the most docile black fox because their natural aggression in captivity resulted in them fighting and tearing holes in the hide. Which didnt look so good on the black fox Russian hats. Brace yourself, this is loaded with racism. Belyaev was successful, in time got a line of fox that was, as you see in the video, just adorable. I've seen video as well of a litter of kits, playful as puppies; only problem was, they werent all black any more. As you will find in the reports whats going on is that as you lower the melanin, you lower the adrenalin, and as the adrenalin declines so does the innate aggression. Which was not needed by either the Neanderthal or the Cro Magnon in Europe. The real enemy was Old Man Winter; men had to stay in the cave or Longhouse for five months without cabin fever making them crazy and harming others. The Greenland ice cores show how often the climate in the ice age went from warm to cold and back again very rapidly, sometimes in just a decade, usually less than a century. This was not enuf time for the hominids, of whatever kind, to adjust, and as you report, many starved as the megafauna they relied on also starved out. They cant eat ice. These rapid shifts in climate prevented the hominid populations from ever getting very large, so they were never at war for hunting land. Anthro reports suggest typical tropical hunting tribes get by on just 100 square miles of territory, and other tribes were always handy to prey upon or to defend against. LeBlanc, "Constant Battles" outlines the cycles of violence and warfare that results, noting that the signs of trauma on the skeletons in their grave yards are 20 times more common than seen in the graveyards of Northern European Yeoman farmers. The low population density in Europe, and the way the ice kept pushing people south and then letting them come back north again, dispersed them very thinly so we'll never have a clear idea of who was where when. But we do know they had severe inbreeding problems, and its hard to imagine they did not have the instinct for diversity- which would result in mating with whatever other line shows up. A midwife explained the problem. The HNS neonate skull was oval, like a football; the HSS neonate skull was spherical, and had a larger cross section. The HSS female skeleton is less robust, and her pelvis cracks during birth to open up the way. The HNS pelvis was too rigid, and did not have the shape needed to turn the baby as it comes out. However many HNS mtDNA lines there were all got wiped out but the one which Sykes, "The Seven Daughters of Eve" says was living in Europe 50,000 BP. He doesnt say she was HNS, but the record says only the HNS was there at the time. But let me complicate things even further. We know the HNS and HSS contacted each other, at least living in close proximity if not together, in the Levant 120,000 BP. That region was never subjected to the ice like Europe was. So, why didnt the HNS move south to Arabia? HSS was not living there at the time; they'd all gone back down into the rest of Africa. Back to the midwife. Hybridization had already been attempted, and was wiping out mtDNA lines. It was wiping out HSS mtDNA lines as well. HSS didnt move back to Africa, they also died out. But- from Sykes, we see one mtDNA line lived to return to Europe, altho we'd expect difficult birthing and conception problems kept that line from ever expanding much in numbers. And in fact, to this day, Native European women have far more trouble with conception and birth than any of the other gene pools. is there any other explanation for why this is so? The notion that western medicine promotes its services wont wash any more because western medicine is now everywhere, but the fertility clinic services are still more limited to the Western markets. We cant dismiss hybridization. Nor can we entirely rely on it for white skin. But we can see how very difficult it was for Belyaev, knowing what he did about genetics, to get the domestic result, and we can see the small gene pools in Europe- with just a few alleles and haplotypes introduced would have a powerful effect, in contrast to how they'd be washed out in a mass population. Given the low populations of both HNS and HSS, the usual notion of the mighty Homo Sapiens warriors committing genocide just dont make sense. The recent discovery of HNS remains with Cro Magnon tools and crafts challenges that warfare idea even more. > http://video.aol.com/video-detail/belyaev-experiment-docile-foxes/828... > Is one of the links suggesting where the loss of melanin came from. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I've seen video as well of a litter of kits, playful as puppies; only > problem was, they werent all black any more. ======================================= GOLDLIONS writes; Wonderful link and many thanks for sharing it! If I can recall one article concerning this incredible experiment correctly, that it took only 15 generations of selecting and mating the GENTLEST foxes to achieve these adorable black and white kits that would become so tame that one can walk them on a leash like a friendly dog. However even though these exciting new mutations complete with their floppy ears and less dense fur were still practically genetically the same as their wild ancestors.... As we are with our own Cro Magnon ancestors..... ================================== > As you will find in the reports whats going on is that as you lower the > melanin, you lower the adrenalin, and as the adrenalin declines so does > the innate aggression. =================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Not always, take "SNOWFLAKE" the all white gorilla for instance. He turned out to be more aggressive than his normal colored kin but was it because he was naturally this way or from being traumatized after his mother was shot for his capture? Also consider the ancient Vikings which were also fair skinned/haired. These Nordics "lived for war and fighting" and were no less hostile than other archaic peoples around the globe. ======================================== Which was not needed by either the Neanderthal or > the Cro Magnon in Europe. The real enemy was Old Man Winter; men had to > stay in the cave or Longhouse for five months without cabin fever making > them crazy and harming others. ======================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Honestly considering the violent history of the archaic peoples of Europe, I strongly feel that these two hominids were in direct competition with each other over the same territories and foodstuffs. With this in mind they pretty much avoided each other and made little contact as possible. Research on Neanderthal diet and teeth speculate that Neanderthals had extremely high metabolisms and needed a daily caloric intake ranging from 3,200, up to 4,000 in order to survive. Wild beasts and men were selfish, they had to be, so why share when food wasn't easy to get? So with this in mind, I seriously doubt they were friendly neighbors of Cro Magnon or they would still be around. (In fact, I wonder if the myths concerning Trolls, Blemmyae, Gobblins, and Ogers may have it's roots from chance encounters with those frightfully large faced (sometimes cannibalistic)? Neanderthals? ================================================ > A midwife explained the problem. The HNS neonate skull was oval, like a > football; the HSS neonate skull was spherical, and had a larger cross > section. =============================================== GOLDLIONS writes; That makes sense since the Neanderthal pelvic opening is more oval than ours. ================================================= The HSS female skeleton is less robust, and her pelvis cracks > during birth to open up the way. ============================================ GOLDLIONS writes; Yep, a necessary adaptation for a pelvis with a smaller opening than H. N. in order to give birth with a same size or similar sized offspring with a large head. ============================================= > And in fact, to this day, Native European women have far more trouble > with conception and birth than any of the other gene pools. is there any > other explanation for why this is so? ============================================== DNA tests reveal that ancient Indians and Europeans came from the same ancestral stock. ============================================== > Given the low populations of both HNS and HSS, the usual notion of the > mighty Homo Sapiens warriors committing genocide just dont make sense. ======================================================== GOLDLIONS writes; WAR makes no sense IMO...... :( =================================================== > The recent discovery of HNS remains with Cro Magnon tools and crafts > challenges that warfare idea even more. ======================================= GOLDLIONS writes; Yep, the ancients loved to plunder.............. >> The recent discovery of HNS remains with Cro Magnon tools and crafts >> challenges that warfare idea even more. > ======================================= > GOLDLIONS writes; Yep, the ancients loved to plunder.............. One conclusion from the paucity of hominid remains in Europe was that there simply were not that many there, and if so, raiding didnt pay. The mammoth bone longhouses were spaced out 100 miles along the Don. They'd been lived in for generations, but left us no sign whatever of any warfare among them. Then later, the Anatolian neolithic cities like Chatal Hoyuk, Hacilar, Gobekli Tepe, Askali Hoyuk,... a dozen cities or more depending on which century you look at. With no sign of warfare among them. Hodder, "The Leopard's Tale", digs down thru 1500 years of occupation layers at Chatal Hoyuk, finds 61 bodies, every single one ritualy buried. No general layers of burnt rubble as after a place has been sacked. No broken arrow or spear points outside, as would be found from hitting an adobe wall. lotsa artwork, but no depiction of warfare. These cities were all abandoned at the end of the 7th mil, but we see the same culture has moved to the Danube/Dneiper floodplains, going into the farming business in a region with much better soil and far fewer droughts. Hundreds of villages spaced out regularly along the rivers every 3km, and down thru 4000 years of occupation, no signs of violence. The whole region was abandoned 6000 years ago; when horses came in, it looks like they brought Anthrax. The culture splits- part gets on the world's first plank hulled sailing ships to the Aegean Isles to become the Minoan. Who also left us no evidence of warfare among them, and part gets on the horses in the cattle business on the Steppes, and by 4000 BP ends up in what is now NW China to found the oases towns that became known as the Silk Road. Again, with no evidence that they ever warred with each other; not that they didnt have plenty of trouble with the Sakyas (the jackass warlords that still run the various "-stan" states, the Zongnu, and sometimes the Chinese. But this time, while there has long been debate about their ancestors in Europe being matriarchic, there is no doubt. They left us the letters from the women in charge of things to prove it. That matriarchic tradition can be traced in the iconography of goddess figures all the way to the old stone age and the era of assimilation with the Neanderthals. Its been noted that the remains of HNS men look like rodeo bull riders with all the leg and hip fractures. Warriors are different. They show us the parry fractures of the upper arms and the bashed in skulls. Which I've not read of with old stone age hominids. Back to the foxes. The necessity to sit out the winter in the cave filtered out the aggressive warriors who suffer from cabin fever much more with such low levels of physical activity. Now with melanin, sure we have violent whites or white gorillas; but with a gene pool the melanin level is much more reliable than variation from one individual to another. Its the *average* that determines the level of violence in the group. With regard to the Vikings, there is a red form of melanin that has the same effect on the distribution of other hormones as the black. Jared Diamond, "Collapse" writes of the remarkably high level of violence seen in the bones of the Greenland Norse. There are also the letters to the bishop from clergy not wanting to be assigned to such a rowdy bunch, and he notes the draconian law needed to quell the violence. He comments on the richness of the elite and the poverty of everyone else. He dont note is that we are looking at the descendants of Eric the RED. The alpha males also have a "not invented here" attitude twards their perceived enemies. They prefer their own weapons. HNS didnt. Mallory, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" says the Aryans were not conquerors, but actually assimilators. which fits with matriarchy. He says the Aryan war bands did not emerge until the late bronze age. When writing made the organization and logistics possible. That matriarchic tradition came out of the extinction of so many mtDNA lines caused by the hybridization process. NONE of your sources have any explanation for why there are so few Aryan mtDNA lines. It is not seen in any other gene pool on the planet as far back as we can see. I've read that the Y chromosome is not stable enuf to survive in the fossil record, so all we have is the mtDNA. And as we see, only one of those HNS lines survived, so we've yet to find an example of where that line came from. There are not that many samples to look at yet. I await data. DAY BROWN writes; Back to the foxes. The necessity to sit out the winter in the cave filtered out the aggressive warriors who suffer from cabin fever much more with such low levels of physical activity. Now with melanin, sure we have violent whites or white gorillas; but with a gene pool the melanin level is much more reliable than variation from one individual to another. Its the *average* that determines the level of violence in the group. ========================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Excellent point. A first step towards "cultural domestication" of the European lineage? ======================================================== DAY BROWN writes; That matriarchic tradition can be traced in the iconography of goddess figures all the way to the old stone age and the era of assimilation with the Neanderthals ========================================================== GOLDLIONS writes; As for the "goddesses/Matriarchic" tradition/s, I just don't see any evidence of, ("goddesses or "VENUS" figures), with any Neanderthal remains or with other ancient hominids other than Cro Magnon. ========================================================== DAY BROWN writes; The whole region was abandoned 6000 years ago; when horses came in, it looks like they brought Anthrax. ========================================================== GOLDLIONS writes; Interesting, perhaps it was disease that was the main factor along with starvation that speeded up the demise of Neanderthal? Did some Cro Magnon tribe/tribes decide to use "germ warfare" with them trading furs and other contaminated materials that had infectious agents on them like smallpox? A similar event happened with the plains Indians when the settlers came in and traded blankets that were contaminated with small pox. ============================================================= DAY BROWN writes; Its been noted that the remains of HNS men look like rodeo bull riders with all the leg and hip fractures. ============================================================== GOLDLIONS; Based on what stone tools and heavy wooden spears found at several Neanderthal sites, it's most likely that these ancients didn't throw their spears but used them stabbing their prey at close quarters. With that in mind, I'm sure a few brave souls were either gorged, trampled on, or thrown by such dangerous game. To sum it up, it wasn't easy bringing home the bacon in those days.... BTW, Thank you for posting such great replies. Best to you and yours. I've read that the bit with small pox blankets is a myth. It was proposed by British officers, but the Native American gene pools had never been exposed to a host of Eurasian pathogens, so it wasnt necessary to use artificial means. The Kensington Rune stone, whose validity is moot, reports on Vikings traveling thru the Great Lakes in the 12th century. They would have left a host of pathogens in their wake. And in that wake we see the sudden collapse of the agrarian Mississippian culture at Cahokia. Since I'm a bastard, I sent in my DNA to the ancestry project. Got a readout on 20 markers. Out of the hundreds of thousands in the databank so far, I'm not related to any of them. I've read the Y chromosome is too fragile to exist in the fossil record, and now it looks too variable, too mutated, to be very indicative of anything but exact, or very close matches. 60 Minutes did a piece showing how a prisoner's DNA did not match a sample from the crime scene. But it was pretty close, so the police went after samples from his male kin and there, they found the match. But now waitaminute. What they've shown is that two brothers didnt have the same, but merely similar DNA markers from the same father, and that their sons likewise deviated. So, where in the hell are these deviations coming from, and if this goes on in a mere 3 generations, then what can we say of the thousands of generations in the ancient past? Polite discourse appreciated. We look for answers but find more questions. DAY BROWN writes; I sent in my DNA to the ancestry project. Got a > readout on 20 markers. Out of the hundreds of thousands in the databank > so far, I'm not related to any of them. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > coming from, and if this goes on in a mere 3 generations, then what can > we say of the thousands of generations in the ancient past? ====================================== GOLDLIONS; You're right concerning the above. In 2002 I had to undergo an operation in 2002 to remove some fast growing fibroids. (Luckily the later lab results indicated that all were beign.) However, the Dr suggested should I need additional blood for this proceedure that I'd check if any within my related family members if any would donate some. To everyone's surprise NONE on either side of my family, (including cousins), had the same blood type I have. So yeah genes can jump.... ======================== DAY BROWN writes; > Polite discourse appreciated. ======================= Ditto. It's refreshing to share intellegent conversations online. ================================= DAY BROWN writes; > We look for answers but find more questions. ============================== Yeah, especially regarding these odd ancients we refer to as Neanderthals. Seems like the more secrets we uncover about them, the weirder they get such as their bizarre inner ears. Heh. > Yeah, especially regarding these odd ancients we refer to as > Neanderthals. Seems like the more secrets we uncover about them, the > weirder they get such as their bizarre inner ears. I heard about the hypoid bone, but what's this about? Another issue I'm trying to sort thru is epigenetics. Then too, there's the discovery of absorbed twins. Who may not even be identical. So- even if an HNS hybrid would not be viable, if at the zygote stage it was absorbed by a pure Homo sapiens, then that DNA gets carried around in another individual, and figuring out what that causes is another whole plate of spaghetti. > I heard about the hypoid bone, but what's this about? =========================================== Jean-Louis Heim of the National Museum of Natural History reconstructed the famous Neanderthal skull of La Chapelle, when parts of it became unglued due to decades of handling. Results indicated a more angled base of the cranium than before This indicates a lower placement of the larynx, more similar to that of human adults but still placed somewhat higher up. But how Neanderthal SPOKE to each other may never be fully known but the inner ear may hold a key to what sounds they could hear. Someone noted how their inner ear had less turns than moderns and may had heard mostly high pitched sounds/ tones. ======================================================== > Another issue I'm trying to sort thru is epigenetics. Then too, there's > the discovery of absorbed twins. Who may not even be identical. ============================================== Epigenetics, the "poltergeist" within DNA? Interesting how recent studies in this field show that function can occurr without a change in the DNA sequence and is changing the way many think about heredity. ======================================================== > So- even if an HNS hybrid would not be viable, if at the zygote stage it > was absorbed by a pure Homo sapiens, then that DNA gets carried around > in another individual, and figuring out what that causes is another > whole plate of spaghetti. ======================================================== Again IF that had ever really occurred between the two species, hopefully time will tell. Consider this outrageous example below which I KNOW NEVER OCCURRED and hope no one would take seriously. I'm using it because some people still speculate that the short white Europeans and Asians may have bits of Neanderthal DNA floating around..... BASED on what we know about Neanderthal so far, I don't think it could had happened. A Human/Neanderthal "union" would be as silly as believing that a Watusi/Bonobo union had ever occurred because that would help explain why there are pygmies in Africa. And genetically that too is just impossible..... Oh yeah, another one for you. the Chinese found a casket from the 12th century full of some strange fluid. And in the fluid was the remarkably well preserved body of an aristocratic women, completely intact with pliable skin and joints. They didnt say what the fluid was, but did say it preserved the body so well they were able to analyze the blood in the veins. Type AB. A medical professional saw that and said."that's funny. the Chinese dont *HAVE* type AB blood. She's Aryan." DAY BROWN wrote: > Oh yeah, another one for you. the Chinese found a casket from the 12th > century full of some strange fluid. And in the fluid was the remarkably [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > A medical professional saw that and said."that's funny. the Chinese dont > *HAVE* type AB blood. She's Aryan." ============================================== Oh WOW now that's something I haven't heard about, what an awesome discovery! Was she a hybrid or full blooded Aryan? Was she buried alone or near a man's coffin as well? The Chinese didnt report another coffin or even grave. I dunno the geography real well, but think she was found near the border between China and Manchuria, fairly close to the coast, say 200km. I'd bet she was a hybrid, but the solution she was immersed in produced some swelling which made her face a bit puffy, Her hair was black, the skin wasnt all that white, but again, the fluid could have tanned her hide like leather. I've read Byzantine coins have been found all the way down the river towns east to the Pacific. Other sources say the priciest call girls in Xian were Kuchi Trophy blondes go back 3000 years to the Shang. Who also hired Aryans into the court as astrologers and magicians. The Shang called them the "Ma-ag". Early Tang lists of generals and bueaucrats include names that we now recognize came from Kucha. Even one of the emperors. There also times when a coalition of the harem and eunuchs offed an emperor and put up a front man. Reminds me of Claudius, but some of those put up were women. For a long time Kucha to Xian was like Athens to Rome, but Kucha lasted as a powerful intellectual and political force far longer. Athens had the silver mine, which played out, but Kucha had the jade mines, and they are still going. If you consider how rich China got selling silk to the world, work out how rich Kucha got selling Jade to China. And some of that money endowed religious and philosophical institutions. Everybody who was anybody knew who the Kuchi were. Even today, dancing girls are from Kucha like guitar pickers are from Nashville. And they are still obviously not Han. Some still have green eyes and brown, not black hair, and many could pass on the street in Europe without seeming foreign in front- with a fine a.s on the backward glance. Saw a Discovery channel thing on the Amazons buried in the permafrost of the Altai, and then they took a crew to Mongolia, and found a brown haired girl with Amazon, ie Aryan, mtDNA. Kucha is pretty remote, and it looks like if you look in small isolated gene pools in Western China you can find Aryan DNA that was not washed out by Han blood. Documents show the Tocharian matriarchs owned the communal houses people lived in, and like the Tang, while they sometimes had a front man, they had women rulers even more often. There are some links on the Mosou of SW China, up in the Himalayas that are still matriarchic. It seems a long way from Kucha, but they were trying to get away from the Mongol hordes, and moving up into the southern mtns provided the vertigo the Mongols could not handle, but also a warmer climate at that altitude. I can see being afraid of heights being less of a problem than being afraid of Mongols. There are matriarchic tribes scattered around the boonies of Tibet, and one population of 12,000 that still speaks an Indo-European language. But because all the great power centers became dominated by patriarchies, nobody says anything about it going on. And, like the Neanderthal, this Aryan culture is real scattered and inbred with indigeneous populations which dont look Han to the Han. No way really to sort out just who came from where when. Based on the artistic sensibility, you can say when a particular style showed up a a particular place, but you dunno who brought it in. The DNA will tell you where a line mostly came from, but it dont tell you when it got to where you find it. The two merchants at the bottom of: http://www.daybrown.org/artifax/artifax.html are clearly Aryan, but they are both dressed in Chinese silk. They liked to dress up in foreign styles just like we do. A first millenia Jet Set. The Kuchi exported girls to the harems of the royal court, but then a few years later replaced them with younger girls. Well, you know the guys wanted younger girls. But this built up an intelligence network; the girls coming back read, wrote, and spoke the language. And if a girl wanted to bring a son with her, unless he was the only one, the honcho was all for it, knowing that a son was safe from any attempted extermination of his line in Kucha. I imagine the child support payments were substantial. When I add it all up, the Jade city, not the Emerald city, was the richest town on earth for a damn long time. And, it was built on what we'd call, if you ever were out in the American west, a 'Butte'. Kucha would make a helluva epic movie worth lotsa sequels that'd play well both in the Aryan and the Chinese worlds. The mind boggles. > The Chinese didnt report another coffin or even grave. I dunno the > geography real well, but think she was found near the border between [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > would make a helluva epic movie worth lotsa sequels that'd play well > both in the Aryan and the Chinese worlds. The mind boggles. =================================================== Day, OMG, what an awesome post, clearly you know your ancient history! It sure would be a refreshing change for Hollywood to actually have the guts to recreate a series of educational movies about little known hot topics like this rather than the abysmal crap flooding the theaters lately. Egads, we really need a change, but is that too beyond Hollywood now? Again, thank you for such intriguing posts, you're a real asset to this group. :) > Day, OMG, what an awesome post, clearly you know your ancient > history! [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Again, thank you for such intriguing posts, you're a real asset to > this group. :) Well there are those who think I'm a kook, but thanx. I did write http://daybrown.org/kucha/kucha.html but I must warn that its in an experimental font that mite not be readable on your monitor. One of the mystical ideas bandied about in Central Asia back then was that you exist, as Bengalese Saint Ramprasad put it, "on a projected matrix". They also said there were a myriad worlds, so there's prolly some that will have better movies. But it seems the zeitgeist of every world has certain limits; kinda like a video game, the software only lets you act in ways the programmers had considered. All you have is a dumb terminal and dont have access to the operating system. Altho, and this is integral with Kucha, there are ways to achieve an altered state of consciousness, and thereby step beyond the limits of the terminal software to see WTF is really going on. Ramprasad sorta implies that your whole world was created when you woke up this morning, down to the placement of the pixels on this screen or the ink in a Bible. And if you understand fractal math, you can see how reasonable approximations would pass cursory examination. The devil is in the details revealed by Quantum Physics, Heidigger's cat, and Chaos theory. And, the funny thing, which maybe you recall, about fractals, is that no matter which point you look at, at the edge of the image, you know the remaining unseen portion could reveal another pattern which'll take the next data points off in entirely unexpected directions. And conversely, while it looks like change is coming, it always looks like change is coming, but like Godot, it never gets here. We prattle on here to kill time waiting for it. But if it ever does show up, a lotta folks will be killed by the changes. Rather than triple bypass, there's enuf angry psychos to bring back Aztec Heart surgery. I sometimes wonder what went wrong. I can see the awakening of cosmic consciousness in the Old Stone Age. There were certain places in the caves, where the art is most powerful, where an echo would go down, and then return on the next beat of a drum. This is a kind of acoustic amp with the feedback building the volume very rapidly. In total darkness, the visual cortex would be overloaded by the crossover from the audio, and as seen at raves, drive people into a trance state. At least, that seems to exist in the Matrix I woke up with. Others, who may see this message, may not have that kind of reality, and dismiss all this as trivial lunacy. They have my compassion, not my anger. > I sometimes wonder what went wrong. I can see the awakening of cosmic > consciousness in the Old Stone Age. There were certain places in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the visual cortex would be overloaded by the crossover from the audio, > and as seen at raves, drive people into a trance state. ===================================================== Ever think of actually putting your pen to paper writing up a novel of some ancient history? IMO, you got what it takes with a refreshing descriptive flair that goes beyond "visual" means. After reading this I feel like I'm actually sitting there with the ancients experiencing the moment with them. It would more a heck of a lot more exciting than reading the "Clan of the Cave Bear" series IMO. Back to your question here, perhaps what's missing are two things today, respect and real faith. It was a harsh cruel life back then, and by having a strong and well structured belief system would help unify the people together. =============== > At least, that seems to exist in the Matrix I woke up with. Others, who > may see this message, may not have that kind of reality, and dismiss all > this as trivial lunacy. They have my compassion, not my anger. ============== Have to agree, but again not everyone has an artistic mindset. > Ever think of actually putting your pen to paper writing up a novel of > some ancient history? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It would more a heck of a lot more exciting than reading the "Clan of > the Cave Bear" series IMO. Not egzactly, but I'm editing "Raj" on the computer behind me. Its what happened to the Longhouse when the Mammoth went away, and didnt come back. This is the total disintegration of a system which had existed for millennia, the original Fat City, confronted with famine. Which they didnt even have a word for. And if I can quit wasting so much time on trolls, I'd get it done and posted at http://daybrown.org; But the garden is starting to come in, and I'll be busy with pickles. The bog body stomachs and bone middens show my Native European ancestors ate over 100 wild plants and animals. Along with many domesticated. Other studies show how trace minerals- iron, copper, zinc, manganese, et al, and the micronutrients plants absorb from "organic" soils, are needed by some of the 150 or so neurotransmitters in the laying down of new neural pathways during learning. Maximizing mental performance and development. All, right, so some years back, I added trace minerals to my garden. And just a few days ago, added Greensand, which is an "organic fertilizer" that also has trace minerals. Researching Greensand, I find there are deposits 120 miles from me, that have not been in commercial development that I will be discussing with a grant writer to get the state funding from "community development" to do something with it. The Ozarks are too steep for agribusiness, so its still all family farms that are rapidly being shifted into "organic farming". Another way the ancient past is being applied is that these families are hybrids of the Scots/Irish pioneers who didnt mind the poor land, and some Cherokee they took in off the "Trail of Tears". So there's a hybridization of the herbal and pagan folkore of the two cultures, neither of which actually had the Ozarks as an ancestral homeland. Some of the kinds of displacement and family breakdown I outline in Raj is going on here as the elders die off, and the next generation already has careers in the city, and so the place is sold off to retirees who want to make a hobby farm. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.30/19-bankruptcy.html outlines what Harvard economist Elizabeth Warren has to say about the downsizing and disintegration of the middle class. Every year now, she says that 1 in seven families goes into bankruptcy and looses the house. At that rate, the nuclear family model will be extinct in 7 years. I know that, statistically, there will still be some. But- the synergy of dominance that has put the model up an ideal for everyone will be gone. RAJ, Anatolia, Euxine, Kucha, & Newomen all try to outline how alternative social models work. Needless to say, this disturbs sensibilities; people get angry. However, there are some in the Ozarks who have realized changes are in place, and exploring new kinds of relationships. I had a young couple with two kids stay with me a few weeks ago, who were aware of problems with some land they were thinking of buying because all the other couples near there are Christian and monogamous, and they are neither. Cherokee witches park people at my place while they figure out where they'd best fit in. I've had fags and dykes stay with me too. When I discuss some of this on usenet, there are guys who say I'm lying. They can quite literally believe the sexual lifestyle changes going on. I think there are more clues to what we now call "Alternative" lifestyles in the digs. Gimbutas shows us lotsa "Phallic wands", but I've seen porn flicks, and I know dildos when I see them. Can Marija talk about what dildos are for? http://daybrown.org/artifax/artifax.html shows the cover of JP Mallory's "In Search of the Indo Europeans". the flyleaf describes the bronze figure as male, even tho I can see tits. Mallory says he cant find an original Aryan word for "marriage". Its is well documented how, when they went "a viking" they armed the women left in the Longhouse to protect themselves, kids, and property. Nobody will actually use the word, but the Vikings lived monogamously, without any formal marriage but for the aristocracy who needed it to formalize the inheritance of property. And timber frame long houses go back 8000 years into the era Gimbutas and Mallory are trying, and failing, to understand because of their own sexual sensibilities. That's why she cant deal with dildos, and he cant imagine an Amazon cavalry. Even tho, the record of Tamerlane, in the 14th century, is that he hired a cavalry of Amazon archers from the very same "Parthia" Mallory refers to. Tamerlane understood how a cavalry of lightframed female archers could move faster further over land than anything else, a kind of Blitzkrieg that showed up suddenly outta nowhere, sowed confusion, then disappeared before any organized response. Guys wont believe it. But Tamerlane, in the 14th century, was well aware of the history of military reports from Thucydides & Xenophon all the way up to his time, and he wanted his own campaigns carefully documented. No matter; they still wont believe it. I challenge sensibilities, and get called names. However, there are some in the Ozarks who have realized changes are in place, and exploring new kinds of relationships. I had a young couple with two kids stay with me a few weeks ago, who were aware of problems with some land they were thinking of buying because all the other couples near there are Christian and monogamous, and they are neither. =========================================================== Reading this reminds me of what I've mentioned in previous replies in this thread concerning the vast differences between the Cro Magnon people and Neanderthal which I can assure you was considerably more so than what sets many Christians and Cherokee witches apart, . (Should such an interaction take place between these two sides, it's anything but "lovey dovey" as you are well aware.) Now enter in a hominid who couldn't communicate the same way we do. It's now known that the inner ears of Neanderthal was considerably different from H.Sapiens so the two not only spoke differently but heard differently as well. Neanderthals were really unique......... ============================== ============================================================= Cherokee witches park people at my place while they figure out where they'd best fit in. I've had fags and dykes stay with me too. When I discuss some of this on usenet, there are guys who say I'm lying. They can quite literally believe the sexual lifestyle changes going on. =============================================================== Ya know,......Life is what it is and I personally don't mind people who have a different life style than my own providing that I know they're good hearted with good morals and not out to harm anyone else. I still firmly believe that we the human race are to embrace each other as a whole and to really care for one another despite cultural, ethicnial, etc, differences. Everyone could use a little help every now and then. Everything is here for some reason. But- the synergy of dominance that has put the model up an ideal for everyone will be gone. RAJ, Anatolia, Euxine, Kucha, & Newomen all try to outline how alternative social models work. Needless to say, this disturbs sensibilities; people get angry. ----------------------------------------------- And why they'd get angry about this is something I just don't get....For to LEARN about ancient history one has to read the "whole book" or it's class dismissed too early. But then again not everyone likes the same thing...... > And why they'd get angry about this is something I just don't > get....For to LEARN about ancient history one has to read the "whole > book" or it's class dismissed too early. > But then again not everyone likes the same thing...... Dr. Freud saw that when you present a neurotic with new info that challenges his delusions, he gets angry, not educated. People want to keep it simple. Ancient history is too complex. They havent even read their own f.cking Bibles. But the ancient rule is that abundance creates friends, scarcity enemies. Thus, for example, Custer was not the fool we think. He knew there were several tribes out there, and that they, like the Scythians Herodotus wrote about, were 'contentious enemies'. He didnt know it'd been a good year, and they had buried the hatchet at the Little Big Horn for a barbi. So- likewise with the Neanderthal & Cro Magnon. What was the weather like? I'm sure there were some violent confrontations, but also sure there were times of cooperation. And in an era when the Megafauna were scarce, the most likely survivors had BOTH- the Cro Magnon to use newer weapons to kill at longer range, but then the Neanderthal for oxen to haul the meat the longer distances back to the camps. The data I've seen suggests a low birth rate for all hominids, but the megafauna must have boomed and crashed much more rapidly, so that no long tradition of either friendship or animosity with other groups, who were too far away anyway, ever evolved. We have all the fornication now because of the instinct for genetic diversity. Imagine how much more powerful that was back then. The limit on the hominid population was not warfare, but infertility and freaks from small inbred gene pools. DAY BROWN writes; People want to keep it simple. Ancient history is too complex. They havent even read their own f.cking Bibles. ==================================== Day, while I'm one who really appreciates Christ and his teachings, I'll have to agree with you regarding this comment with at least half of the people I've met in life who regard themselves as "Christians". I was raised up Roman Catholic but later left it due to some negative past experiences. As a youth I went to Catechism. The nun who was our teacher had asked if any of us would like to share any question/s concerning our lessons learned, only my hand went up. Can still remember asking, "Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray TO Mary or/and TO the Saints? Doesn't this contradict the first of the 10 commandments?" Her reaction totally took me by surprise, for instead of receiving a favorable wise answer from her she stood up glaring behind her desk and yelled, "Why are you talking like a Heretic? That's the way Heretics talk!!!" "Wow," I thought, "Hey, she couldn't answer the question......something's not adding up right here". My mistake for questioning her "authority"? Does curiosity always "kill the cat"? What ever, I sure never forgot that lesson, lol. Mind you I don't have anything against Catholics at all, since many I've met in life are really wonderful caring people who seem satisfied with what they were taught. Personally, I felt Catholicism just wasn't for me, I enjoy seeking answers. Sometimes I enjoy Bible study as much as studying about other ancient history, anthropaleontology, paleontology, etc., so from a personal perspective, I found that faith and science can go hand in hand seeking for truth/s about life without conflicting each other. Change or "evolution" happens. It's in our DNA and we dance to it's music still. It would be fasinating to know what kind of spirituality Neanderthal may had once had, but I have my doubts that we'll ever really know. > So- likewise with the Neanderthal & Cro Magnon. What was the weather > like? I'm sure there were some violent confrontations, but also sure > there were times of cooperation. And in an era when the Megafauna were > scarce, the most likely survivors had BOTH- the Cro Magnon to use newer > weapons to kill at longer range, but then the Neanderthal for oxen to > haul the meat the longer distances back to the camps. ================================================== Hmmm, interesting thought Day, however I see a darker side of humanity raising it's ugly head here. Were Neanderthals the first slaves? Even though they were generally smaller than Homo Sapiens, were they were tough and strong enough to use as "mules or draft horses? Could this help explain why HALF of the Neanderthal fossils found were of children or infants? Like the foxes bred for gentleness, were Neanderthals BRED for stronger males and females eventually becoming more "extreme" in form or better known as "classics"? I believe the Shanidar HNS graves, 52,000 BP, were the oldest ritual burials yet found. IT'd be nice if there was a link to the forensic reports on the entire collection of stone age European hominid skeletons. More recent burials, especially in tropical hunter graves, are abundant with evidence of parry fractures and other such evidence of battle. And who do we find buried? When there is battle, men are buried or left there, and as a result, the ritual burials at a community have many more widows than men. I read a report on the Varna graveyard, which at the time had 150 graves, 50% of which were men. Ergo, they never lost men in battle. Missing also are the graves of kids. Either they did something else with the kids, or everyone lived to adulthood. I have read that none of the skeletons showed signs of malnourishment. The Tocharian graveyards have a curious absence as well of evidence of trauma... that is, until the Mongols showed up. Sometimes, it aint what's there, its what aint there. Hodder, "The Leopard's Tale" reports he found 61 graves down thru 1500 years of occupation layers at Chatal Hoyuk. Every single one ritually interred. There were none buried in the debris of a burnt house. No mass graves such as we commonly see where the victors dump the bodies in a hole. There are places in the ancient past where a thousand years or more go by without any evidence of warfare. > I believe the Shanidar HNS graves, 52,000 BP, were the oldest ritual > burials yet found. IT'd be nice if there was a link to the forensic > reports on the entire collection of stone age European hominid skeletons. ============================================ I've been looking for such report/s for years as well, sadly no luck. But here is one nice site with a simple list of fossils of various hominids. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html And this one (below) lists some well known Neanderthal fossils is great. https://www.msu.edu/~heslipst/contents/ANP440/neanderthalensis.htm ================================================ > More recent burials, especially in tropical hunter graves, are abundant > with evidence of parry fractures and other such evidence of battle. And > who do we find buried? When there is battle, men are buried or left > there, and as a result, the ritual burials at a community have many more > widows than men. ================================================= Not all hunters were fortunate enough to be buried. Many men were left after a battle only to become "cat/dog chow" or "bird feed".... As for the women, many may had died at home from childbirth and so were buried. ============================================================ > Missing also are the graves of kids. Either they did something else with > the kids, or everyone lived to adulthood. I have read that none of the > skeletons showed signs of malnourishment. ======================================================= Hmmmm, the OPPOSITE of Neanderthal....... >> Missing also are the graves of kids. Either they did something else with >> the kids, or everyone lived to adulthood. I have read that none of the >> skeletons showed signs of malnourishment. > ======================================================= > > Hmmmm, the OPPOSITE of Neanderthal....... The HNS lived during the ice ages, enduring rapid changes in climate. The Varna graveyard, from 5000 years ago, was in an area with a very stable climate at the time and both a fishing fleet and farming to provide a stable food supply. If we go back another 5000 years, to the emergence of agriculture in the Anatolian communities like Chatal Hoyuk, we see Hodder, digging down thru 1500 years of occupation layers only found 61 bodies, all ritually buried. Where is everyone else? There's a clue in the iconograph of beheaded bodies with vultures, and a mythology that the vultures, as we still see in India, ate the bodies to carry the souls to heaven. We also know excarnation was common. Bodies were simply dragged off to be recycled by carrion eaters. There is a powerful advantage of this, indicated somewhat in Homer, where he shows Priam begging for the body of his son Hector. with the earlier custom, the warriors could not blackmail the living with the bodies of the dead. A problem modern armies still have. > If we go back another 5000 years, to the emergence of agriculture in the > Anatolian communities like Chatal Hoyuk, we see Hodder, digging down [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > carry the souls to heaven. We also know excarnation was common. Bodies > were simply dragged off to be recycled by carrion eaters. ============================ Interesting, Day, I wonder why... Were tho |
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