Help save a fossil site
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John M - 18 Apr 2004 18:06 GMT The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a seawall. A group of local fossil collectors have prepared a petition to limit or avoid the destruction of this wonderful place. If you want to support this noble cause, please feel free to sign the petition below:
http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Thanks to all.
John Miller
Inyo - 19 Apr 2004 00:33 GMT > The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being > threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a > seawall. A group of local fossil collectors have prepared a petition > to limit or avoid the destruction of this wonderful place. Personally, I just don't see how the construction of a seawall can in any material sense cause a fossil site to vanish completely; such a seawall can only serve to protect the fossil locality from further erosive harm due to the ceaseless powers of the pounding sea waters--such a seawall, in fact, is one of the better ways known to secure and save a prominent fossiliferous section exposed along an ocean's shoreline. Far from harming such a fossil-bearing locality, a seawall would, in effect, spare the paleontological site from certain degradation.
But there is, of course, more to the story. Let's dig a little deeper here: What I believe is actually happening here is that some folks are not at all happy with the proposed construction of such a seawall at Capitola, because that seawall will prevent, for the time being, fossil enthusiasts from collecting paleontological specimens there. Such a narrow view is really missing the larger picture, though--that seawall will surely protect the Capitola Pliocene site from erosive peril; the locality will never vanish--it will simply lie behind a protective wall, ready to be collected by scientists and amateurs in the future. A seawall at Capitola makes great environmental sense. Such a protective structure should have been erected there ages ago.
Middle Triassic Ammonoid Fossils From Nevada http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html
John M - 20 Apr 2004 23:09 GMT > > The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being > > threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the future. A seawall at Capitola makes great environmental sense. > Such a protective structure should have been erected there ages ago. Inyo, for all practical purposes the site will vanish forever for both paleontologist and amateurs since it will be highly unlikely that the seawall would be ever removed in the future.
Inyo - 21 Apr 2004 02:42 GMT > > > The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being > > > threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a > > > seawall. A group of local fossil collectors have prepared a petition > > > to limit or avoid the destruction of this wonderful place.
> > Personally, I just don't see how the construction of a seawall can in > > any material sense cause a fossil site to vanish completely; such a > > seawall can only serve to protect the fossil locality from further > > erosive harm due to the ceaseless powers of the pounding sea > > waters.
> > But there is, of course, more to the story. Let's dig a little deeper > > here: What I believe is actually happening here is that some folks are > > not at all happy with the proposed construction of such a seawall at > > Capitola, because that seawall will prevent, for the time being, > > fossil enthusiasts from collecting paleontological specimens there.
> Inyo, for all practical purposes the site will vanish forever for both > paleontologist and amateurs since it will be highly unlikely that the > seawall would be ever removed in the future. Such diversionary parsing of terms over the definition of "vanish" only serves to accentuate my original point—namely, that a group of disgruntled collectors is disappointed that a favorite fossil locality will no long be immediately accessible--a group that apparently does not appreciate the obvious fact that public safety and the preservation of the California coastline trumps, overrides, all paleontology considerations. I will soon contact the Capitola authorities and lend my full support to the proposed seawall project.
A Visit To The Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed, Southern California http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Waucoba/sb/sharkbonebed.html
John M - 21 Apr 2004 16:14 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > paleontology considerations. I will soon contact the Capitola > authorities and lend my full support to the proposed seawall project. Inyo, I wonder if you will so understandably and happily endorse a project to eliminate from effective collection both the sites that you so persistenly advertize in your sigs in this group. Not.. You have probably not read the petition, otherwise you'll have understood that there are other options available to preserve the Capitola coastline and adjacent property. Constructing a entombing seawall is not the only solution.
Inyo - 21 Apr 2004 19:44 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) >Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0404210714.2b8cfb1c@posting.google.com>
>Inyo, I wonder if you will so understandably and happily endorse a >project to eliminate from effective collection both the sites that you >so persistenly advertize in your sigs in this group. Not.. More immature diversionary tactics, a curious nonsequitur, as a matter of fact. But, I'm willing to come clean--Let it be known, on this day, that I do indeed want a seawall constructed around the Prida Formation ammonoid locality ( http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html ) in the middle of the Great Basin Desert--you never know when that old Mesozoic sea might return to inundate and imperil our public lands... Also, I certainly agree that the most fossiliferous sections of the world-famous sharktooth hill bonebed ( http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Waucoba/sb/sharkbonebed.html ) should be accessible only to trained scientists--oops, I forgot...Sharktooth Hill is already a Registered Natural Landmark, off limits to everybody except trained scientists with a degree from an accredited university.
What's interesting to note is that John M's irresponsible attitude toward the legalities of fossil collecting is identical to the criminal mentality of commercial collectors--and other miscreants--whose reckless, law-breaking behavior on our public lands threatens the continued accessiblity of many fossil localities I describe at my web pages.
>Constructing a entombing >seawall is not the only solution. But, a seawall at Capitola is the only SURE way to secure the public safety and preserve that portion of the California coast, issues that take certain precedence over secondary paleontology concerns. This is the honest, mature view. So, naturally, one is left to wonder if John M. and his disgruntled group of collectors would be willing to pay, in perpetuity, the court fees--plus, all monetary damages--to persons filing claims for (1) personal injury, and/or (2) property damages incurred at Capitola due to a lack of a necessary seawall.
John M and his boorish band of disgruntled collectors need to grow up and understand the rational necessity of a seawall at Capitola.
Middle Triassic Ammonoid Fossils From Nevada http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html (hey, John M--start your petition right away to prevent a seawall from surrounding this locality! I have the contractors on my side and we're ready to proceed...the great Mesozoic sea is returning soon to innundate the Great Basin Desert of Nevada! My guess is that John M and his cadre of digruntled collectors will be the first to purchase beach-front property there...)
John M - 23 Apr 2004 09:08 GMT > >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Desert of Nevada! My guess is that John M and his cadre of digruntled > collectors will be the first to purchase beach-front property there...) Sorry my french Inyo, but I think you are a bonehead.
To the others, please read and sign this petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Inyo - 23 Apr 2004 15:49 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) >Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0404230008.252fed31@posting.google.com>
>Sorry my french Inyo, but I think you are a bonehead. If there was any doubt that John M and his sorry gang of disgruntled collectors had been completely discredited, here is direct proof. John M resorts to not unexpected name-calling, boorish behavior that focusses to crystal clarity the complete vacuity and stupidity of his position. John M could never explain why his greedy, selfish, self-serving obsession to collect fossils at Capitola overrides the universal need to provide public safety and safeguard the glorious California coastline; he could not answer that because he is, at heart, a greedy, selfish individual who views every fossil locality as his private playground, never comprehending the larger picture, the greater good, that a seawall at Capitola affords to the public. It is good that John M and his greedy group of disgruntled collectors have exposed themselves to the ridicule and opprobrium they all deserve. John M deserves profuse thanks for providing a much-need public service--his gang of greedy, disguntled collectors can now be help up to the full ridicule and opprobrium they all deserve.
Middle Triassic Ammonoid Fossils From Nevada http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html
John M - 24 Apr 2004 10:35 GMT > >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > providing a much-need public service--his gang of greedy, disguntled collectors > can now be help up to the full ridicule and opprobrium they all deserve. There are over 120 reasonable people that agree with saving the Capitola fossil site and only one that resorts to meaningless rethoric. Now, who is acting irrationally?
To any serioulsy concerned amateur fossil hunter and degreed paleontologists alike, please sign the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Inyo - 24 Apr 2004 15:11 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) >Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0404240135.32643bdb@posting.google.com>
>please sign the petition Note that John M still cannot answer the question--why his greedy, selfish, self-serving obsession to collect fossils at Capitoloa ought to take precedence over common sense, public safey and the need to precect the California coast? He and his greedy gang are a disgrace to the paleontology community--selfish, self-serving individuals like John M. give fossil collectors a very bad reputation. At least he has already discredited himself here. That is good. His greedy gang of disgruntled collectors ought to be mortified over John M's shameful failure here.
Here is a copy of what I have sent to the Capitola authorities regarding the proposed seawall:
"I have heard reports that a seawall will be constructed along Capitola Beach to help stabilize and protect the glorious seacliffs there--in the process, a noted fossil locality will be covered over. I just wanted to contact you and lend my full support to the proposed seawall project--a structure that is long overdue there. Even though I am an avid fossil collector, I understand the greater good a seawall will provide to the public safety and to the preservation of the California coastline. I am in full support of the seawall. Also, I understand that a group of busy-body amateur fossil hounds is preparing a petition to try to prevent that seawall. Please disregard anything that group sends you. They are a bunch of disgruntled busy-bodies who are selfish, greedy, and self-serving. They in no way represent the respectable scientific community at large. The group in question is only out for themselves, disregarding the greater public good that a seawall at Capitola would afford. Thank you for your consideration on this matter."
Bruno - 24 Apr 2004 18:27 GMT I was taught that sea is not eroding cliffs ... it just removes rocks at the bottom of the cliff and erosion was mainly due to circulating vadose and phreatic waters as well as to fracturing or karstification
What's the use of a wall?
> > >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > > >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html Inyo - 24 Apr 2004 19:25 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: "Bruno" brcgranier@wanadoo.fr >Message-ID: <c6e7q9$5hn$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>
>What's the use of a wall? To prevent erosion from occurring at the seacliffs--as outlined in an environmental report pertaining to the proposed seawall. The seawall is necessary--even the disgruntled and discredited gang of collectors admits that erosion is occurring at the site. What they want is a second-rate or even thrid-rate option to replace the proposed seawall, demonstrating clearly and conclusively that the disgruntled and discredited gang is not at all interested in public safety and the protection of the California coast. So, until the discredited gang declares that they will pay all future liablility awards for personal injury and/or property damages at Capitola, that gang of selfish, greedy collectors is completely dishonorable and dishonest in their position.
Oh, and by the way, here are a few representative comments from disgruntled, discredited persons who have signed the so-called petition. This is a real hoot, something to savor:
From a Marco Kannenberg: "move the people elsewhere." There's genuine compasion, for you. Just another representative, concerned citizen, right?
From a Richard Curmi: "houses shouldn`t have been allowed to be build there in the first place." With logic like this, one wonders if this person can even walk and chew gum at the same time.
From a Mitch Utter: "A resource such as this should not be built to save homes that are already lost." Stirling logic. This guy's got a mind like a steel trap--always closed.
From a John Compton: "In terms of value lost, the fossils far outweigh the houses" What a charming sentiment, indeed. Given the choice of saving fossils or his own home, one would presume that Mr. Compton would voluntarily move his family out of their home and live in a car.
From a Kate Richardson: "Preservation of fossil document is more important than little personal convenances!" Let's see how she feels about personal conveniences after the seawall collapses on a member of her family.
From a Katie Holt:" Please don't destroy this site and your lovely coastline!" This is the ultimate example of a childish viewpoint. The seawall will indeed ensure protection of the site and "lovely coastline."
Dawid Mazurek - 25 Apr 2004 08:58 GMT Hi. I'm a paleontology enthusiast. I wolud really like to help paleontology, paleontology community and science. But I don't know which of them is talking true (my english isn't very good, so I propably don't get a realy good picture of the discussion). But I know that You are an assosiate editor of "Notebooks...", so I will trust your word. To help paleontology, should I sign the petition?? Thanks, David.
John M - 07 May 2004 06:15 GMT > Hi. I'm a paleontology enthusiast. I wolud really like to help paleontology, > paleontology community and science. But I don't know which of them is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sign the petition?? > Thanks, David. Even the Monterey Bay Paleontological Society, hardly a group of "disgruntled" fossil collectors, is supporting the signing of the petition:
http://www.calcentral.com/~fossils/
Click on "Fossil Locality Threatened" and then on "Please sign this online petition: click here".
Please read all the pertintent information and make your choice. If paleontology advocates, pro and amateur alike, don't support this sincere and well sounded effort, then who will?
Inyo - 07 May 2004 14:52 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M)
>Please read all the pertintent information and make your choice Yes, and read the kooky comments from many of the disgruntled collectors who have signed the so-called petition. Which, by the way, has no legal standing. John M is simply a disgruntled busy-body, who dosn't care about human safety and the protection of our California coast; he is greedy, self-centered and self-serving. He wants to prevent the best possible way of protecting property and preventing bodily injury--constructing a sea wall-- so that he and and his dishonorable gang of commerical collectors can continue to raid the.Capitola site for their illegal gains.
Fossils At Red Rock Canyon State Park, California http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html
John M - 09 May 2004 23:15 GMT > >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > dishonorable gang of commerical collectors can continue to raid the.Capitola > site for their illegal gains. Wait a moment mister! You are way out of line with your disparaging and baseless accusations. I am not a commercial fossil collector just a person that wants to do the right thing. I am a teacher and take my students on field trips to Capitola. And you don't own this newsgroup by the way, so bail off and stop lying and making diverging and baseless accusations. For the people here that have an open mind and want to support this noble cause, please read the list of the latest signataries of the petition and you'll see that these are not "dishonorable gang of commerical collectors can continue to raid the Capitola site for their illegal gains" as the prior constipated writter is accussing:
160.Gary W. McChristian fossil collector 159.Laura Moss Friend of Capitola residents 158.ROBIN R WIER LAND SURVEYOR (ARIZONA, RETIRED) 157.barbara littlefieldsave our fossills!!capitola resident 156.RICHARD TURNERCONCERNED CAPITOLA RESIDENTFOSSIL LOVER 155.JOANNE TURNERCAPITOLA RESIDENTLOW TIDE BEACH WALKER 154.Paolo GattiI'm from Italy. I visited two times Capitola for fossils and I enjoied so much. Please do not destroy this beautiful fossil site!!!Fossil collector 153.Paul R. Murdoch Jr. Amatuer paleontologist 152.Prem Subrahmanyam amateur fossil collector 151.Frank Perrypaleontologist 150.Skyler Streich student majoring in Paleontology 149.sandra l. tauberWe live in Florida but have made the trip to this area BECAUSE of our love of fossil collecting. 148.Ed Koenig fossil collector 147.Elton Jones geologist146.eric burns 145.David C. Dahlie other144.Edward Lewis 143.Michael W. Kieron Student, former museum curatorial assistant 142.James Strong student, fossil collector 141.Ronald HunterI plan to fly from Washington DC to collect at the site this yearavid fossil collector140.George F. Klein Fossil Collector 139.Derek YoostWe have to save any fossil localityAmature Paleontologist and Collector 138.DOUGLAS J FROST Earth Science Curriculum Developer 137.Will Martin other136.Michael L. Orock Avocational Paleontologist 135.luhua zhang student 134.SarahSeawalls accelerate beach loss in the long run! Don't armor ... save the beach for your children.Geology, B.S. Student at UCSB 133.Gioni Pasquinelli Fossil Collector 132.Dan Tischler diver, fisherman 131.Richard Nichols Executive Director, Coastwalk 130.Mark Massarastrategic retreat management eliminates need for seawalls!atty129.Ms. J.M. Kelly 128.Randall AdamsPlease look at the evidence 127.Nate Davissave the site!former student and friend of Justin Pack 126.Adam Sapina Student 125.Eric Morschhauser paleontology student 124.Katie HoltPlease don't destroy this site and your lovely coastline!interested party 123.F. William and Barbara R. Pack 122.Brian Kilburn Student Paleontologist 121.Corey Rutland Fossil Collector 120.Andrew W. Robson fossil collector 119.Peter Schwanda student 118.Erika Swanson 117.Karen Ivey Interested party 116.Peter Kloess 115.Alisha Pearson student 114.greg mcintyre 113.Malia Thompson student 112.Jamie Johaningmeier 111.Diane Lyonsplease save this sitestudent ...
Please sign petition here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Inyo - 10 May 2004 02:00 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M)
>Please sign petition here: John M. has already been completely discredited here. He is a selfish busybody who thinks he ought to own Capitola Beach for his selfish designs. He disregards public safety and the preservation of the California Coastline. He thinks that simply because a bunch disgruntled collectors signs a petition with no legal standing that he is accomplishing something constructive. Let him, then, personally pay for all liability, personal injury and property damages, that accrue due the lack of a protective and necessary seawall at Capitola. John M. childishly resorts to trying to persuade by reason of numbers--in other words, he trots out a list of disgruntled collectors who have signed a petition with no legal standing. All that proves is that there are quite a number of self-serving busybodies out there who, if forced to pay compensation to those injured, or whose property is damaged due to the lack of seawall at Capitola, would likely back off and see the light. Putting fossils ahead of personal safety and the preservation of property rights is tantamount to tyranny. I would expect nothing less from John M., who has already proved himself unworthy of respect or consideration. Let him go back to that goofy gang of kooks over at the Collecting Fossils In California forum, where he surely belongs. This is a newsgroup for serious discussion of paleontological issues--not a place to advocate dishonest and criminally negligent ideas, like the petition John M. wants folks to sign, which by the way is the very definition of dishonesty and deceit--signed by self-centered, unthinking collectors; John M. by the way, could secure any number of signatures for his dishonest, immoral petition--but that would not change the truth of the matter--just like a petition to make rape legal would have no moral or legal standing. John M and his gang of cohorts is essentially advocating the rape of Capitola Beach, right before our eyes. Thus, everyone who signs that petition approves of continued injury to visitors and the ongoing erosion, destruction, of personal property.
I have already sent a response to the Capitola City Council--I have urged the members to use their sound judgement and disregard anything the disgruntled gang of collectors sends them--to construct the necessary seawall a Capitola; a seawall is the best measure known to safeguard visitors and prevent loss of property.
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 02:20 GMT No body wins in a flame war . If there are real issues of conservation, exploitation, safety, security, and scientific knowledge then they should be listed with supporting evidence from reasonable and credible sources. Just yelling very loudly, name calling, & personal attacks is not an effective way of making a reasoned point. As an information-theory scientist and writer (and someone who has written an award winning book with a paleontologist) I certainly wasn't impressed, swayed, or moved in any positive way by this exchange.
Just a thought. Earl
--
Earl Cox Founder and President Scianta Intelligence, LLC Turn Knowledge Into Intelligence www.scianta.com
AUTHOR: "The Fuzzy Systems Handbook" (1994) "Fuzzy Logic for Business and Industry" (1995) "Beyond Humanity: CyberEvolution and Future Minds" (1996, with Greg Paul, Paleontologist/Artist) "The Fuzzy Systems Handbook, 2nd Ed." (1998) "Machine Intelligence Tools for Data Mining and Knowledge Discovery" (due Early Summer 2004)
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > seawall is the best measure known to safeguard visitors and prevent loss of > property. Inyo - 10 May 2004 04:45 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com
>No body wins in a flame war Taking a strong, firm, direct and confident position in a Newsgroup posting is often misconstrued by a reader as a flame-war. One can only hope that my uncompromising position on this subject, stated with incisive and decisive conviction (not pulling punches, one might say) will not prompt folks to sign the so-called petition, which bears no legal standing, simply out of spite, out of dislike for my pointed approach to John M's position, which I adamantly abhor.
>If there are real issues of conservation, exploitation, safety, security, >and scientific knowledge then they should be listed with supporting evidence The real issues have already been outlined by the folks on the Capitola Planning Commission. And the best way to control erosion and secure public safety, as presented to the commission members in an Environmental Impact Report, was to proceed with the seawall option. It's pretty much that simple, actually. Even the disgruntled gang of collectors admits that something needs to be done to slow down erosion to the fossiliferous seawall there. It''s just that the disgruntled gang won't advocate the best option available--AKA, a seawall--because that would prevent them from pursuing their selfish, self-serving designs.
Here's how it plays out--either the necessary seawall is constructed (best option), or some other means will be used to help stave off the inevitable erosion of the fossil-bearing seacliff. One would expect that the best, and recommended, means would be used to deal with the problem. at hand. Advocating second, or even third-rate measures requires a deceitful, ulterior motive, in which one really isn't sincere about public safety and property rights; one is merely interested in selfish needs to continue to have immediate access to fossils, disregarding the greater public cause. Of course, if the commission members choose to cave in, give in, to second or third-rate options to control erosion at Capitola, they have only themselves to blame when the city is sued into oblivion by property owners/and or folks incurring personal injury.
Fossils At Redrock Canyon State Park http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html (If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on; sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me down for a short while.)
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 05:36 GMT Well, a flame war by any other name... <grin>
I'm not going to get pulled into the middle of this. However, I've been involved in network communications since 1976 (when we were sending emails over Tymshare's tymnet services, a piggy-back on arpanet), I ran Fido boards, and ... well, I can pretty much identify a flame war when I see one. It's an open news group -- you can say anything you want. I was simply pointing out that what might appear to you as being decisive and puling no punches might appear to many, many others as just abusive yelling. You'll probably win the debate (but not the hearts and minds of your target audience) simply because no one else is going to want to argue with you and risk being lectured in your incisive and decisive tone. <grin>
Datz awl. Earl
--
Earl Cox Founder and President Scianta Intelligence, LLC Turn Knowledge Into Intelligence www.scianta.com
AUTHOR: "The Fuzzy Systems Handbook" (1994) "Fuzzy Logic for Business and Industry" (1995) "Beyond Humanity: CyberEvolution and Future Minds" (1996, with Greg Paul, Paleontologist/Artist) "The Fuzzy Systems Handbook, 2nd Ed." (1998) "Machine Intelligence Tools for Data Mining and Knowledge Discovery" (due Early Summer 2004)
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me > down for a short while.) Inyo - 10 May 2004 15:07 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com >Message-ID: <LFDnc.17520$V_.720087@twister.southeast.rr.com>
>It's an open news group -- you can say anything you want. I was simply >pointing out that what might appear to you as being decisive and puling no >punches might appear to many, many others as just abusive yelling. I trust reaers of this group to be able to formulate an illeligent, informed decision regarding the Capitola seawall, now that Cox has provided me yet another opportunity to recapitulate the pertinent facts pertaining to the issue. Also, I certainly have more faith than Cox does that readers of sci.bio.paleontology can penetrate with precision my passionate, confident, decisive language to arrive at a fair assessment of the case.
I have dwindling confidence in the Capitola Planning Commission, frankly, who will likely sacrifice public safety and personal property rights to appease a rabid outspoken gang of greedy fossil collectors whose priorities are misguided and misplaced. My take is that the decision/fix is already in--although technically I believe the Commission members have until late May to make a ruling.
Fossils At Death Valley National Park http://mojave.topcities.com/dv/dvfossils.htm (If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on; sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me down for a short while.)
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 15:33 GMT Glad I could help.
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me > down for a short while.) Inyo - 10 May 2004 15:46 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: "EarlCox"
>Glad I could help. One wonders what Cox is talking about. His contribution to the thread was really nonexistent, except as a trolling irritant, perhaps. He really should stop engaging in flame wars, actually.
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 17:01 GMT My God, man, you are a nasty fellow, railing against someone who is just giving you some advice and never raised his voice. Benjamin Franklin once said that people get the government they deserve, you, sir, get the audience and the results you deserve.
As I said, I won't get pulled into this, and I have already spent too much time on this silly banter.
Earl
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: "EarlCox" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > really nonexistent, except as a trolling irritant, perhaps. He really should > stop engaging in flame wars, actually. Inyo - 10 May 2004 22:25 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: "EarlCox" >Message-ID: <AHNnc.30058$jU.1935016@twister.southeast.rr.com>
>My God, man, you are a nasty fellow,
>Benjamin Franklin once said >that people get the government they deserve, >you, sir, get the audience and the results you deserve. Ah, but I snared Earl Cox as an audience, correct? Does he consider himself a nasty fellow?
Cox's motives were certainly dishonorable. He came barging into a communal discussion pointing fingers at one party only, displaying clear and obvious bias against my confident, pointed tone, paying no attention to the cogent details of my argument. The results were patently predictable--even if I had stated my case in a dispassionate, soporific monotone, Cox would still have remained convinced that a seawall at Capitola is a bad idea.
Inyo (your Usenet crank for a day) has spoken. This Capitola debate has truly turned into "Crapitola," or "How I learned to stop worrying and love flame-war-charred rhetoric..." with apologies to "Dr. Strangelove," of course.
Fossils At Redrock Canyon State Park, California http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html (If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on. Sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me down for a short while.)
Edward Hennessey - 11 May 2004 02:49 GMT > >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: "EarlCox" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > stated my case in a dispassionate, soporific monotone, Cox would still have > remained convinced that a seawall at Capitola is a bad idea. And you, sir, clearly lack the gift to see yourself as others see you as well as being deaf to what was a friendly advisory by Mr. Cox.
Don't mistake the silence in this group for agreement with your vitriol but understand it as a hushed repugnance at your initiation of personal attacks, oozing sarcasm and pleonastic slurs. What one can do hiding behind the blind of a cybername....
In one post, you revile commercial collectors as categorically worthless slime; in another, you give one praise. Which is it? Just whatever you say it is, whenever you say it? I see, when you want our opinion, you will give it to us....
Where a measured, respectful and simply logical exposition would do well in advancing this discussion you laud your own "passion" and "decisiveness" as if one ineluctably compelled the other. Your treatment of everyone else in this thread is demonstrably rank. Earl Cox becomes not Earl or Mr. Cox but Cox. The other side becomes "discredited", "kooky", "disgruntled","dishonorable", "completely discredited", "busybodies", "greedy" compounded into a "gang" that is completely"self-centered" and "self-serving". Reflecting on the last two terms might prove a salubrious excercise in awareness.
If "dishonorable motives" include trying to have a healthy exhange on a topic in a civilized manner, please ascribe them here. That is the motive of this posting. I have read the available web documents on the matter. And the other side has points they must logically address to establish a factual basis for their position. However, please understand that your language and presentation are, indeed, nasty, counter-productive and over the top. If that is the effect you crave, you have it. If a calm exchange of ideas is a feasible option for you, that would be a novel gift to the entire group.
Edward Hennessey
Inyo - 11 May 2004 05:26 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: "Edward Hennessey" seesigline@nospam.org
> What one can do hiding behind the blind of a cybername.... You can call me anything you want, just call me to dinner, as the saying goes...
OK, I suppose this is pretty serious, now that somebody has trotted out the "I-don't-like-people -who-use-cyberhandles-because-they-are-petty-cowards-who-are-afraid-to-use -their-real-name--and-so-they-hide-behind-a-pseudonymn-in-order-to-troll-w ithout-consequences" argument--an argument usually flung by somebody who's lost control of the direction of a debate and has little else to contribute. I've been using "Inyo" now for three or four years--with no plans to change cyberhandles, by the way--and this is actually the first time I've encountered that cyber-sucker punch. And to think that after all of those years all I had to do to get that argument flung in my face was to speak in a loud, obnoxious, verbose, stilted, offensive manner.
But really, was all of your vitriolic hysteria really necessary (although much of it did read like a parody of my own posts in this thread)? Most folks who've been reading this group for the past two or three years, at least, should realize that I'm normally one of the easiest going posters around. Usually, I post links to cyberarticles and/or places of potential paleontological interest. Rarely do I engage in any kind of controversy. And, based on my apparently disastrous attempt to convey a firm, confident, unwavering position, probably I should refrain from further forays into such raging controversy until I can learn to master the art of persuasive, coherent, nonconfrontational language. I admit, I'm just not very good at it right now, although I don't plan to try the old addage--"practice makes perfect."
On this occasion, though, I felt that I simply had to take a firm, passionate, decisive stand on the Capitola seawall issue, albeit my resultant verbage came through as raw, disorderly and arrogant.. I did see valid reasons to question forcefully John Miller's motives when I learned that, most curiously, he did not advocate what is obviously the best possible means available to protect the fossiliferous seacliffs from eroding away--in other words, constructing a seawall at Capitola. My views were pointedly and directly stated--that I acknowledge. I am still of the firm opinion that Miller's position is tantamount to criminal negligence, but as I have related at least twice now, my instinctive take is that members of the Capitola Planning Commission have already made up their collective minds to abandon the proposed seawall project. So, all of this is now pretty much a classic moot point, it would appear.
Actually, in closing, I would hope that readers do not, as a group, feel that I have tried to intimidate or brow-beat them into submission, attempting to squelch sincere debate. I am open to all criticism here. I certainly have it coming, I would admit. I would hope I can come of the cyber-doghouse soon.
Fossils At Redrock Canyon State Park, California http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html (If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on; sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me down for a short while.)
Edward Hennessey - 11 May 2004 06:52 GMT > >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: "Edward Hennessey" seesigline@nospam.org [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ithout-consequences" argument--an argument usually flung by somebody who's lost > control of the direction of a debate and has little else to contribute. My contribution in this particular regard was that individuals who have been bitterly reviled or maligned have a reasonable right to face their accuser, a principle that is simply enshrined in fairness.
I've
> been using "Inyo" now for three or four years--with no plans to change > cyberhandles, by the way--and this is actually the first time I've encountered > that cyber-sucker punch. And to think that after all of those years all I had > to do to get that argument flung in my face was to speak in a loud, obnoxious, > verbose, stilted, offensive manner. Agreed.
> But really, was all of your vitriolic hysteria really necessary (although much > of it did read like a parody of my own posts in this thread)? I welcome reproof from anyone --yourself aside-- who can support such a finding of hysteria after reading my expositions as I welcome and urge everyone who discerns your tone and thrust in this thread to be anything other than incivil and destructive to come forward and endorse that opinion.
Usually, I
> post links to cyberarticles and/or places of potential paleontological > interest. Rarely do I engage in any kind of controversy. And, based on my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > language. I admit, I'm just not very good at it right now, although I don't > plan to try the old addage--"practice makes perfect." Your cyberarticles are well done. Your incitement of rancor in this thread was neither kind nor useful in fostering a reasonable discussion.
> On this occasion, though, I felt that I simply had to take a firm, passionate, > decisive stand on the Capitola seawall issue, albeit my resultant verbage came [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > squelch sincere debate. I am open to all criticism here. I certainly have it > coming, I would admit. I would hope I can come of the cyber-doghouse soon. Good.
Edward Hennessey
EarlCox - 11 May 2004 03:47 GMT There is actually no rational response to your posting that would not force me into the kind of flaming practice that I studiously avoid.
Perhaps you would care to re-read my previous messages. I simply said that an exploration of the issues based on reasoned arguments that considered the basic issues (safety, conservation, etc) would be a better approach than screaming and name calling. I have never advocated, in any of my postings, a personal position for or against the building of the seawall.
If an appeal to rational discourse, open mindedness, and a balanced treatment of issues in an argument is dishonorable, then, indeed, my motives have been dishonorable. I am, alas, a scoundrel and a pernicious trouble maker. I can live with that.
You may reply with any comments you like. I am finished with this thread.
Earl
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site > >From: "EarlCox" [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me > down for a short while.) John M - 10 May 2004 18:09 GMT > Well, a flame war by any other name... <grin> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > "Machine Intelligence Tools for Data Mining and Knowledge Discovery" > (due Early Summer 2004) Thank you for your words, I agree completely with you. I apologize to you and everybody else in this fine newsgroup if I exceeded the tone in some of my posts. My intention was never to start a flame war, just to simply point out the fact that there is currently a valid controversy going on at Capitola and that the help of experts is needed in assesing the long term value, or not, of constructing an fossil entombing seawall. I will not resort to false accusations or disparaging coments. Again I apologize, and if anyone feels that the right thing to do is to sign the petition, please do so, if you don't, well don't sign it. We live in a democracy, and signing a petition or not, is a fundamental part of it. Best Regards, John Miller
Monterey Bay Paleonyological Society http://www.calcentral.com/~fossils/
Inyo - 10 May 2004 22:03 GMT >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com (John M) >Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0405100909.36ba6e19@posting.google.com>
> I apologize to >you and everybody else in this fine newsgroup if I exceeded the tone >in some of my posts
>My intention was never to start a flame war, just >to simply point out the fact that there is currently a valid >controversy going on at Capitola and that the help of experts is >needed in assesing the long term value, or not, of constructing an >fossil entombing seawall.
>John Miller Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that, I reckon. As I said elsewhere, my take is that the Capitola Planning Commission is, unfortunately, on your side on this matter. Let's put it this way--I won't be surprised if the seawall project is scuttled for an alternative, albeit less-than-best option. This is not good, but it's out of my control, and stuff has been known to happen, as it were.
Fossils At Death Valley National Park http://mojave.topcities.com/dv/dvfossils.htm (If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on; sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me down for a short while.)
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