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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / May 2004



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Help save a fossil site

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John M - 18 Apr 2004 18:06 GMT
The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being
threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a
seawall. A group of local fossil collectors have prepared a petition
to limit or avoid the destruction of this wonderful place. If you want
to support this noble cause, please feel free to sign the petition
below:

http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html

Thanks to all.

John Miller
Inyo - 19 Apr 2004 00:33 GMT
> The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being
> threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a
> seawall. A group of local fossil collectors have prepared a petition
> to limit or avoid the destruction of this wonderful place.

Personally, I just don't see how the construction of a seawall can in
any material sense cause a fossil site to vanish completely; such a
seawall can only serve to protect the fossil locality from further
erosive harm due to the ceaseless powers of the pounding sea
waters--such a seawall, in fact, is one of the better ways known to
secure and save a prominent fossiliferous section exposed along an
ocean's shoreline. Far from harming such a fossil-bearing locality, a
seawall would, in effect, spare the paleontological site from certain
degradation.

But there is, of course, more to the story. Let's dig a little deeper
here: What I believe is actually happening here is that some folks are
not at all happy with the proposed construction of such a seawall at
Capitola, because that seawall will prevent, for the time being,
fossil enthusiasts from collecting paleontological specimens there.
Such a narrow view is really missing the larger picture, though--that
seawall will surely protect the Capitola Pliocene site from erosive
peril; the locality will never vanish--it will simply lie behind a
protective wall, ready to be collected by scientists and amateurs in
the future. A seawall at Capitola makes great environmental sense.
Such a protective structure should have been erected there ages ago.

Middle Triassic Ammonoid Fossils From Nevada
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html
John M - 20 Apr 2004 23:09 GMT
> > The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being
> > threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> the future. A seawall at Capitola makes great environmental sense.
> Such a protective structure should have been erected there ages ago.

Inyo, for all practical purposes the site will vanish forever for both
paleontologist and amateurs since it will be highly unlikely that the
seawall would be ever removed in the future.
Inyo - 21 Apr 2004 02:42 GMT
> > > The beautiful Capitola, California, Pliocene fossil site is being
> > > threaten from being completely vanished because of proposed building a
> > > seawall. A group of local fossil collectors have prepared a petition
> > > to limit or avoid the destruction of this wonderful place.

> > Personally, I just don't see how the construction of a seawall can in
> > any material sense cause a fossil site to vanish completely; such a
> > seawall can only serve to protect the fossil locality from further
> > erosive harm due to the ceaseless powers of the pounding sea
> > waters.

> > But there is, of course, more to the story. Let's dig a little deeper
> > here: What I believe is actually happening here is that some folks are
> > not at all happy with the proposed construction of such a seawall at
> > Capitola, because that seawall will prevent, for the time being,
> > fossil enthusiasts from collecting paleontological specimens there.

> Inyo, for all practical purposes the site will vanish forever for both
> paleontologist and amateurs since it will be highly unlikely that the
> seawall would be ever removed in the future.

Such diversionary parsing of terms over the definition of "vanish"
only serves to accentuate my original point—namely, that a group of
disgruntled collectors is disappointed that a favorite fossil locality
will no long be immediately accessible--a group that apparently does
not appreciate the obvious fact that public safety and the
preservation of the California coastline trumps, overrides, all
paleontology considerations. I will soon contact the Capitola
authorities and lend my full support to the proposed seawall project.

A Visit To The Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed, Southern California
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Waucoba/sb/sharkbonebed.html
John M - 21 Apr 2004 16:14 GMT
>  
>  
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> paleontology considerations. I will soon contact the Capitola
> authorities and lend my full support to the proposed seawall project.

Inyo, I wonder if you will so understandably and happily endorse a
project to eliminate from effective collection both the sites that you
so persistenly advertize in your sigs in this group. Not..
You have probably not read the petition, otherwise you'll have
understood that there are other options available to preserve the
Capitola coastline and adjacent property. Constructing a entombing
seawall is not the only solution.
Inyo - 21 Apr 2004 19:44 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
>Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0404210714.2b8cfb1c@posting.google.com>

>Inyo, I wonder if you will so understandably and happily endorse a
>project to eliminate from effective collection both the sites that you
>so persistenly advertize in your sigs in this group. Not..

More immature diversionary tactics, a curious nonsequitur, as a matter of fact.
But, I'm willing to come clean--Let it be known, on this day, that I do indeed
want a seawall constructed around the Prida Formation ammonoid locality (
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html ) in the
middle of the Great Basin Desert--you never know when that old Mesozoic sea
might return to inundate and imperil our public lands... Also, I certainly
agree that the most fossiliferous sections of the world-famous sharktooth hill
bonebed ( http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Waucoba/sb/sharkbonebed.html ) should
be accessible only to trained scientists--oops, I forgot...Sharktooth Hill is
already a Registered Natural Landmark, off limits to everybody except trained
scientists with a degree from an accredited university.

What's interesting to note is that John M's irresponsible attitude toward the
legalities  of fossil collecting is identical to the criminal mentality of
commercial collectors--and other miscreants--whose reckless, law-breaking
behavior on our public lands threatens the continued accessiblity of many
fossil localities I describe at my web pages.

>Constructing a entombing
>seawall is not the only solution.

But, a seawall at Capitola is the only SURE way to secure the public safety and
preserve that portion of the California coast, issues that take certain
precedence over secondary paleontology concerns. This is the honest, mature
view. So, naturally,  one is left to wonder if John M. and his disgruntled
group of collectors would be willing to pay, in perpetuity, the court
fees--plus, all monetary damages--to persons filing claims for (1) personal
injury, and/or (2) property damages incurred at Capitola due to a lack of a
necessary seawall.

John M and his boorish band of disgruntled collectors need to grow up and
understand the rational necessity of a seawall at Capitola.

Middle Triassic Ammonoid Fossils From Nevada
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html
(hey, John M--start your petition right away to prevent a seawall from
surrounding this locality! I have the contractors on my side and we're ready to
proceed...the great Mesozoic sea is returning soon to innundate the Great Basin
Desert of Nevada! My guess is that John M and his cadre of digruntled
collectors will be the first to purchase beach-front property there...)
John M - 23 Apr 2004 09:08 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> Desert of Nevada! My guess is that John M and his cadre of digruntled
> collectors will be the first to purchase beach-front property there...)

Sorry my french Inyo, but I think you are a bonehead.

To the others, please read and sign this petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Inyo - 23 Apr 2004 15:49 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
>Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0404230008.252fed31@posting.google.com>

>Sorry my french Inyo, but I think you are a bonehead.

If there was any doubt that John M and his sorry gang of disgruntled collectors
had been completely discredited, here is direct proof. John M resorts to not
unexpected name-calling, boorish behavior that focusses to crystal clarity the
complete vacuity and stupidity of his position. John M could never explain why
his greedy, selfish, self-serving obsession to collect fossils at Capitola
overrides the universal need to provide public safety and safeguard the
glorious California coastline; he could not answer that because he is, at
heart, a greedy, selfish individual who views every fossil locality as his
private playground, never comprehending the larger picture, the greater good,
that a seawall at Capitola affords to the public. It is good that John M and
his greedy group of disgruntled collectors have exposed themselves to the
ridicule and opprobrium they all deserve.  John M deserves profuse thanks for
providing a much-need public service--his gang of greedy, disguntled collectors
can now be help up to the full ridicule and opprobrium they all deserve.

Middle Triassic Ammonoid Fossils From Nevada
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/silverpeak3/ammonoids/ammonoids.html
John M - 24 Apr 2004 10:35 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> providing a much-need public service--his gang of greedy, disguntled collectors
> can now be help up to the full ridicule and opprobrium they all deserve.

There are over 120 reasonable people that agree with saving the
Capitola fossil site and only one that resorts to meaningless
rethoric. Now, who is acting irrationally?

To any serioulsy concerned amateur fossil hunter and degreed
paleontologists alike, please sign the petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Inyo - 24 Apr 2004 15:11 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
>Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0404240135.32643bdb@posting.google.com>

>please sign the petition

Note that John M still cannot answer the question--why his greedy, selfish,
self-serving obsession to collect fossils at Capitoloa  ought to take
precedence over common sense, public safey and the need to precect the
California coast? He and his greedy gang are a disgrace to the paleontology
community--selfish, self-serving individuals like John M. give fossil
collectors a very bad reputation. At least he has already discredited himself
here. That is good. His greedy gang of disgruntled collectors ought to be
mortified over John M's shameful failure here.

Here is a copy of what I have sent to the Capitola authorities regarding the
proposed seawall:

"I have heard reports that a seawall will be constructed along Capitola Beach
to help stabilize and protect the glorious seacliffs there--in the process, a
noted fossil locality will be covered over. I just wanted to contact you and
lend my full support to the proposed seawall project--a structure that is long
overdue there. Even though I am an avid fossil collector, I understand the
greater good a seawall will provide to the public safety and to the
preservation of the California coastline. I am in full support of the seawall.
Also, I understand that a group of busy-body amateur fossil hounds is preparing
a petition to try to prevent that seawall. Please disregard anything that group
sends you. They are a bunch of disgruntled busy-bodies who are selfish, greedy,
and self-serving. They in no way represent the respectable scientific community
at large. The group in question is only out for themselves, disregarding the
greater public good that a seawall at Capitola would afford. Thank you for your
consideration on this matter."
Bruno - 24 Apr 2004 18:27 GMT
I was taught that sea is not eroding cliffs ... it just removes rocks at the
bottom of the cliff and erosion was mainly due to circulating vadose and
phreatic waters as well as to fracturing or karstification

What's the use of a wall?

> > >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> > >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Inyo - 24 Apr 2004 19:25 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: "Bruno" brcgranier@wanadoo.fr
>Message-ID: <c6e7q9$5hn$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

>What's the use of a wall?

To prevent erosion from occurring at the seacliffs--as outlined in an
environmental report pertaining to the proposed seawall. The seawall is
necessary--even the disgruntled and discredited gang of collectors admits that
erosion is occurring at the site. What they want is a second-rate or even
thrid-rate option to replace the proposed seawall, demonstrating clearly and
conclusively that the disgruntled and discredited gang is not at all interested
in public safety and the protection of the California coast. So, until the
discredited gang declares that they will pay all future liablility awards for
personal injury and/or property damages at Capitola, that gang of selfish,
greedy collectors is completely dishonorable and dishonest in their position.

Oh, and by the way, here are a few representative comments from disgruntled,
discredited persons who have signed the so-called petition. This is a real
hoot, something to savor:

From a Marco Kannenberg: "move the people elsewhere." There's genuine
compasion, for you. Just another representative, concerned citizen, right?

From a Richard Curmi: "houses shouldn`t have been allowed to be build there in
the first place." With logic like this, one wonders if this person can even
walk and chew gum at the same time.

From a Mitch Utter: "A resource such as this should not be built to save homes
that are already lost."  Stirling logic. This guy's got a mind like a steel
trap--always closed.

From a John Compton: "In terms of value lost, the fossils far outweigh the
houses" What a charming sentiment, indeed. Given the choice of saving fossils
or his own home, one would presume that Mr. Compton would voluntarily move his
family out of their home and live in a car.

From a Kate Richardson: "Preservation of fossil document is more important than
little personal convenances!" Let's see how she feels about personal
conveniences after the seawall collapses on a member of her family.

From a Katie Holt:" Please don't destroy this site and your lovely coastline!"
This is the ultimate example of a childish viewpoint. The seawall will indeed
ensure protection of the site and "lovely coastline."
Dawid Mazurek - 25 Apr 2004 08:58 GMT
Hi. I'm a paleontology enthusiast. I wolud really like to help paleontology,
paleontology community and science. But I don't know which of them is
talking true (my english isn't very good, so I propably don't get a realy
good picture of the discussion). But I know that You are an assosiate editor
of "Notebooks...", so I will trust your word. To help paleontology, should I
sign the petition??
Thanks, David.
John M - 07 May 2004 06:15 GMT
> Hi. I'm a paleontology enthusiast. I wolud really like to help paleontology,
> paleontology community and science. But I don't know which of them is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> sign the petition??
> Thanks, David.

Even the Monterey Bay Paleontological Society, hardly a group of
"disgruntled" fossil collectors, is supporting the signing of the
petition:

http://www.calcentral.com/~fossils/

Click on "Fossil Locality Threatened" and then on "Please sign this
online petition: click here".

Please read all the pertintent information and make your choice. If
paleontology advocates, pro and amateur alike, don't support this
sincere and well sounded effort, then who will?
Inyo - 07 May 2004 14:52 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)

>Please read all the pertintent information and make your choice

Yes, and read the kooky comments from many of the disgruntled collectors who
have signed the so-called petition. Which, by the way, has no legal standing.
John M is simply a disgruntled busy-body, who dosn't care about human safety
and the protection of our California coast; he is greedy, self-centered and
self-serving. He wants to prevent the best possible way of protecting property
and preventing bodily injury--constructing a sea wall-- so that he and and his
dishonorable gang of commerical collectors can continue to raid the.Capitola
site for their illegal gains.

Fossils At Red Rock Canyon State Park, California
http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html
John M - 09 May 2004 23:15 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> dishonorable gang of commerical collectors can continue to raid the.Capitola
> site for their illegal gains.

Wait a moment mister! You are way out of line with your disparaging
and baseless accusations. I am not a commercial fossil collector just
a person that wants to do the right thing. I am a teacher and take my
students on field trips to Capitola.  And you don't own this newsgroup
by the way, so bail off and stop lying and making diverging and
baseless accusations.
For the people here that have an open mind and want to support this
noble cause, please read the list of the latest signataries of the
petition and you'll see that these are not "dishonorable gang of
commerical collectors can continue to raid the Capitola site for their
illegal gains" as the prior constipated writter is accussing:

160.Gary W. McChristian fossil collector
159.Laura Moss Friend of Capitola residents
158.ROBIN R WIER LAND SURVEYOR (ARIZONA, RETIRED)
157.barbara littlefieldsave our fossills!!capitola resident
156.RICHARD TURNERCONCERNED CAPITOLA RESIDENTFOSSIL LOVER
155.JOANNE TURNERCAPITOLA RESIDENTLOW TIDE BEACH WALKER
154.Paolo GattiI'm from Italy. I visited two times Capitola for
fossils and I enjoied so much. Please do not destroy this beautiful
fossil site!!!Fossil collector
153.Paul R. Murdoch Jr. Amatuer paleontologist
152.Prem Subrahmanyam amateur fossil collector
151.Frank Perrypaleontologist
150.Skyler Streich student majoring in Paleontology
149.sandra l. tauberWe live in Florida but have made the trip to this
area BECAUSE of our love of fossil collecting.
148.Ed Koenig fossil collector
147.Elton Jones geologist146.eric burns  
145.David C. Dahlie other144.Edward Lewis  
143.Michael W. Kieron Student, former museum curatorial assistant
142.James Strong student, fossil collector
141.Ronald HunterI plan to fly from Washington DC to collect at the
site this yearavid fossil collector140.George F. Klein Fossil
Collector
139.Derek YoostWe have to save any fossil localityAmature
Paleontologist and Collector
138.DOUGLAS J FROST Earth Science Curriculum Developer
137.Will Martin other136.Michael L. Orock Avocational Paleontologist
135.luhua zhang student
134.SarahSeawalls accelerate beach loss in the long run! Don't armor
... save the beach for your children.Geology, B.S. Student at UCSB
133.Gioni Pasquinelli Fossil Collector
132.Dan Tischler diver, fisherman
131.Richard Nichols Executive Director, Coastwalk
130.Mark Massarastrategic retreat management eliminates need for
seawalls!atty129.Ms. J.M. Kelly
128.Randall AdamsPlease look at the evidence
127.Nate Davissave the site!former student and friend of Justin Pack
126.Adam Sapina Student
125.Eric Morschhauser paleontology student
124.Katie HoltPlease don't destroy this site and your lovely
coastline!interested party
123.F. William and Barbara R. Pack  
122.Brian Kilburn Student Paleontologist
121.Corey Rutland Fossil Collector
120.Andrew W. Robson fossil collector
119.Peter Schwanda student
118.Erika Swanson  
117.Karen Ivey Interested party
116.Peter Kloess  
115.Alisha Pearson student
114.greg mcintyre  
113.Malia Thompson student
112.Jamie Johaningmeier  
111.Diane Lyonsplease save this sitestudent
...

Please sign petition here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/capitola/petition.html
Inyo - 10 May 2004 02:00 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)

>Please sign petition here:

John M. has already been completely discredited here. He is a selfish busybody
who thinks he ought to own Capitola Beach for his selfish designs. He
disregards public safety and the preservation of the California Coastline. He
thinks that simply because a bunch disgruntled collectors signs a petition with
no legal standing that he is accomplishing something constructive. Let him,
then, personally pay for all liability, personal injury and property damages,
that accrue due the lack of a protective and necessary seawall at Capitola.
John M. childishly resorts to trying to persuade by reason of numbers--in other
words, he trots out a list of disgruntled collectors who have signed a petition
with no legal standing. All that proves is that there are quite a number of
self-serving busybodies out there who, if forced to pay compensation to those
injured, or whose property is damaged due to the lack of seawall at Capitola,
would likely back off and see the light. Putting fossils ahead of personal
safety and the preservation of property rights is tantamount to tyranny. I
would expect nothing less from  John M., who has already proved himself
unworthy of respect or consideration. Let him go back to that goofy gang of
kooks over at the Collecting Fossils In California forum, where he surely
belongs. This is a newsgroup for serious discussion of paleontological
issues--not a place to advocate dishonest and criminally negligent ideas, like
the petition John M. wants folks to sign, which by the way is the very
definition of dishonesty and deceit--signed by self-centered, unthinking
collectors; John M. by the way, could secure any number of signatures for his
dishonest, immoral petition--but that would not change the truth of the
matter--just like a petition to make rape legal would have no moral or legal
standing. John M and his gang of cohorts is essentially advocating the rape of
Capitola Beach, right before our eyes. Thus, everyone who signs that petition
approves of continued injury to visitors and the ongoing erosion, destruction,
of personal property.

I have already sent a response to the Capitola City Council--I have urged the
members to use their sound judgement and disregard anything the disgruntled
gang of collectors sends them--to construct the necessary seawall a Capitola; a
seawall is the best measure known to safeguard visitors and prevent loss of
property.
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 02:20 GMT
No body wins in a flame war
.
If there are real issues of conservation, exploitation, safety, security,
and scientific knowledge then they should be listed with supporting evidence
from reasonable and credible sources. Just yelling very loudly, name
calling, &  personal attacks is not an effective way of making a reasoned
point. As an information-theory scientist and writer (and someone who has
written an award winning book with a paleontologist) I certainly wasn't
impressed, swayed, or moved in any positive way by this exchange.

Just a thought.
Earl

--

Earl Cox
Founder and President
Scianta Intelligence, LLC
Turn Knowledge Into Intelligence
www.scianta.com

AUTHOR:
"The Fuzzy Systems Handbook" (1994)
"Fuzzy Logic for Business and Industry" (1995)
"Beyond Humanity: CyberEvolution and Future Minds"
(1996, with Greg Paul, Paleontologist/Artist)
"The Fuzzy Systems Handbook, 2nd Ed." (1998)
"Machine Intelligence Tools for Data Mining and Knowledge Discovery"
(due Early Summer 2004)

> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> seawall is the best measure known to safeguard visitors and prevent loss of
> property.
Inyo - 10 May 2004 04:45 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com

>No body wins in a flame war

Taking a strong, firm, direct and confident position in a Newsgroup posting is
often misconstrued by a reader as a flame-war. One can only hope that my
uncompromising position on this subject, stated with incisive and decisive
conviction (not pulling punches, one might say) will not prompt folks to sign
the so-called petition, which bears no legal standing, simply out of spite, out
of dislike for my pointed approach to John M's position, which I adamantly
abhor.

>If there are real issues of conservation, exploitation, safety, security,
>and scientific knowledge then they should be listed with supporting evidence

The real issues have already been outlined by the folks on the Capitola
Planning Commission. And the best way to control erosion and secure public
safety, as presented to the commission members in an Environmental Impact
Report, was to proceed with the seawall option.  It's pretty much that simple,
actually. Even the disgruntled gang of collectors admits that something needs
to be done to slow down erosion to the fossiliferous seawall there. It''s just
that the disgruntled gang won't advocate the best option available--AKA, a
seawall--because that would prevent them from pursuing their selfish,
self-serving designs.

Here's how it plays out--either the necessary seawall is constructed (best
option), or some other means will be used to help stave off the inevitable
erosion of the fossil-bearing seacliff. One would expect that the best, and
recommended, means would be used to deal with the problem. at hand. Advocating
second, or even third-rate measures requires a deceitful, ulterior motive, in
which one really isn't sincere about public safety and property rights; one is
merely interested in selfish needs to continue to have immediate access to
fossils, disregarding the greater public cause. Of course, if the commission
members choose to cave in, give in, to second or third-rate options to control
erosion at Capitola,  they have only themselves to blame when the city is sued
into oblivion by property owners/and or folks incurring personal injury.

Fossils At Redrock Canyon State Park
http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html
(If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on;
sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
down for a short while.)
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 05:36 GMT
Well, a flame war by any other name... <grin>

I'm not going to get pulled into the middle of this. However, I've been
involved in network communications since 1976 (when we were sending emails
over Tymshare's tymnet services, a piggy-back on arpanet), I ran Fido
boards, and ... well, I can pretty much identify a flame war when I see one.
It's an open news group -- you can say anything you want. I was simply
pointing out that what might appear to you as being decisive and puling no
punches might appear to many, many others as just abusive yelling. You'll
probably win the debate (but not the hearts and minds of your target
audience) simply because no one else is going to want to argue with you and
risk being lectured in your incisive and decisive tone. <grin>

Datz awl.
Earl

--

Earl Cox
Founder and President
Scianta Intelligence, LLC
Turn Knowledge Into Intelligence
www.scianta.com

AUTHOR:
"The Fuzzy Systems Handbook" (1994)
"Fuzzy Logic for Business and Industry" (1995)
"Beyond Humanity: CyberEvolution and Future Minds"
(1996, with Greg Paul, Paleontologist/Artist)
"The Fuzzy Systems Handbook, 2nd Ed." (1998)
"Machine Intelligence Tools for Data Mining and Knowledge Discovery"
(due Early Summer 2004)

> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
> down for a short while.)
Inyo - 10 May 2004 15:07 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com
>Message-ID: <LFDnc.17520$V_.720087@twister.southeast.rr.com>

>It's an open news group -- you can say anything you want. I was simply
>pointing out that what might appear to you as being decisive and puling no
>punches might appear to many, many others as just abusive yelling.

I trust reaers of this group to be able to formulate an illeligent, informed
decision regarding the Capitola seawall, now that Cox has provided me yet
another opportunity to recapitulate the pertinent facts pertaining to the
issue. Also, I certainly have more faith than Cox does that readers of
sci.bio.paleontology can penetrate with precision my passionate, confident,
decisive language to arrive at a fair assessment of the case.

I have dwindling confidence in the Capitola Planning Commission, frankly, who
will likely sacrifice public safety and personal property rights to appease a
rabid outspoken gang of greedy fossil collectors whose priorities are misguided
and  misplaced. My take is that the decision/fix is already in--although
technically I believe the Commission members have until late May to make a
ruling.

Fossils At Death Valley National Park
http://mojave.topcities.com/dv/dvfossils.htm
(If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on;
sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
down for a short while.)
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 15:33 GMT
Glad I could help.

> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: "EarlCox" earlcox@earlcoxreports.com
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
> down for a short while.)
Inyo - 10 May 2004 15:46 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: "EarlCox"

>Glad I could help.

One wonders what Cox is talking about. His contribution to the thread was
really nonexistent, except as a trolling irritant, perhaps. He really should
stop engaging in flame wars, actually.
EarlCox - 10 May 2004 17:01 GMT
My God, man, you are a nasty fellow,
railing against someone who is just giving you some advice
and never raised his voice. Benjamin Franklin once said
that people get the government they deserve,
you, sir, get the audience and the results you deserve.

As I said, I won't get pulled into this,
and I have already spent too much time
on this silly banter.

Earl

> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: "EarlCox"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> really nonexistent, except as a trolling irritant, perhaps. He really should
> stop engaging in flame wars, actually.
Inyo - 10 May 2004 22:25 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: "EarlCox"
>Message-ID: <AHNnc.30058$jU.1935016@twister.southeast.rr.com>

>My God, man, you are a nasty fellow,

>Benjamin Franklin once said
>that people get the government they deserve,
>you, sir, get the audience and the results you deserve.

Ah, but I snared Earl Cox as an audience, correct? Does he consider himself a
nasty fellow?

Cox's motives were certainly dishonorable. He came barging into a communal
discussion pointing fingers at one party only, displaying clear and obvious
bias against my confident, pointed tone, paying no attention to the cogent
details of my argument. The results were patently predictable--even if I had
stated my case in a dispassionate, soporific monotone, Cox would still have
remained convinced that a seawall at Capitola is a bad idea.

Inyo (your Usenet crank for a day) has spoken. This Capitola debate has truly
turned into "Crapitola," or "How I learned to stop worrying and love
flame-war-charred rhetoric..." with apologies to "Dr. Strangelove," of course.

Fossils At Redrock Canyon State Park, California
http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html
(If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on.
Sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
down for a short while.)
Edward Hennessey - 11 May 2004 02:49 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: "EarlCox"
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> stated my case in a dispassionate, soporific monotone, Cox would still have
> remained convinced that a seawall at Capitola is a bad idea.

And you, sir, clearly lack the gift to see yourself as others see you as
well as being
deaf to what was a friendly advisory by Mr. Cox.

Don't mistake the silence in this group for agreement with your vitriol but
understand it
as a hushed repugnance at your initiation of personal attacks, oozing
sarcasm and pleonastic
slurs. What one can do hiding behind the blind of a cybername....

In one post, you revile commercial collectors as categorically worthless
slime; in another, you give
one praise. Which is it? Just whatever you say it is, whenever you say it? I
see, when you want our
opinion, you will give it to us....

Where a measured, respectful and simply logical exposition would do well in
advancing this discussion
you laud your own  "passion" and "decisiveness" as if one ineluctably
compelled the other.
Your treatment of everyone else in this thread is demonstrably rank. Earl
Cox becomes not Earl or Mr. Cox but Cox. The other side becomes
"discredited", "kooky", "disgruntled","dishonorable", "completely
discredited", "busybodies", "greedy" compounded into a "gang" that is
completely"self-centered" and "self-serving". Reflecting on the last two
terms might prove a salubrious excercise in awareness.

If "dishonorable motives" include trying to have a healthy exhange on a
topic in a civilized manner, please ascribe them
here. That is the motive of this posting. I have read the available web
documents on the matter. And
the other side has points they must logically address to establish a factual
basis for their position. However,
please understand that your language and presentation are, indeed, nasty,
counter-productive and over the
top. If that is the effect you crave, you have it. If a calm exchange of
ideas is a feasible option for you, that
would be a novel gift to the entire group.

Edward Hennessey
Inyo - 11 May 2004 05:26 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: "Edward Hennessey" seesigline@nospam.org

> What one can do hiding behind the blind of a cybername....

You can call me anything you want, just call me to dinner, as the saying
goes...

OK, I suppose this is pretty serious, now that somebody has trotted out the
"I-don't-like-people
-who-use-cyberhandles-because-they-are-petty-cowards-who-are-afraid-to-use
-their-real-name--and-so-they-hide-behind-a-pseudonymn-in-order-to-troll-w
ithout-consequences" argument--an argument usually flung by somebody who's lost
control of the direction of a debate and has little else to contribute. I've
been using "Inyo" now for three or four years--with no plans to change
cyberhandles, by the way--and this is actually the first time I've encountered
that cyber-sucker punch. And to think that after all of those years all I had
to do to get that argument flung in my face was to speak in a loud, obnoxious,
verbose, stilted, offensive manner.

But really, was all of your vitriolic hysteria really necessary (although much
of it did read like a parody of my own posts in this thread)? Most folks who've
been reading this group for the past two or three years, at least, should
realize that I'm normally one of the easiest going posters around. Usually, I
post links to cyberarticles and/or places of potential paleontological
interest. Rarely do I engage in any kind of controversy. And, based on my
apparently disastrous attempt to convey a firm, confident, unwavering position,
probably I should refrain from further forays into such raging controversy
until I can learn to master the art of persuasive, coherent, nonconfrontational
language.  I admit, I'm just not very good at it right now, although I don't
plan to try the old addage--"practice makes perfect."

On this occasion, though, I felt that I simply had to take a firm, passionate,
decisive stand on the Capitola seawall issue, albeit my resultant verbage came
through as raw, disorderly and arrogant.. I did see valid reasons to question
forcefully John Miller's motives when I learned that, most curiously, he did
not advocate what is obviously the best possible means available to protect the
fossiliferous seacliffs from eroding away--in other words, constructing a
seawall at Capitola. My views were pointedly and directly stated--that I
acknowledge. I am still of the firm opinion that Miller's position is
tantamount to criminal negligence, but as I have related at least twice now, my
instinctive take is that members of the Capitola Planning Commission have
already made up their collective minds to abandon the proposed seawall project.
So, all of this is now pretty much a classic moot point, it would appear.

Actually, in closing, I would hope that readers do not, as a group, feel that I
have tried to intimidate or brow-beat them into submission, attempting to
squelch sincere debate. I am open to all criticism here. I certainly have it
coming, I would admit. I would hope I can come of the cyber-doghouse soon.

Fossils At Redrock Canyon State Park, California
http://mojave.topcities.com/redrock/redrockfossils.html
(If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on;
sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
down for a short while.)
Edward Hennessey - 11 May 2004 06:52 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: "Edward Hennessey" seesigline@nospam.org
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> ithout-consequences" argument--an argument usually flung by somebody who's lost
> control of the direction of a debate and has little else to contribute.

My contribution in this particular regard was that individuals who have been
bitterly reviled or maligned
have a reasonable right to face their accuser, a principle that is simply
enshrined in fairness.

I've
> been using "Inyo" now for three or four years--with no plans to change
> cyberhandles, by the way--and this is actually the first time I've encountered
> that cyber-sucker punch. And to think that after all of those years all I had
> to do to get that argument flung in my face was to speak in a loud, obnoxious,
> verbose, stilted, offensive manner.

Agreed.

> But really, was all of your vitriolic hysteria really necessary (although much
> of it did read like a parody of my own posts in this thread)?

I welcome reproof from anyone --yourself aside-- who can support such a
finding of hysteria after
reading my expositions as I welcome and urge everyone who discerns your tone
and thrust
in this thread to be anything other than incivil and destructive to come
forward and endorse
that opinion.

Usually, I
> post links to cyberarticles and/or places of potential paleontological
> interest. Rarely do I engage in any kind of controversy. And, based on my
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> language.  I admit, I'm just not very good at it right now, although I don't
> plan to try the old addage--"practice makes perfect."

Your cyberarticles are well done. Your incitement of rancor in this thread
was neither
kind nor useful in fostering a reasonable discussion.

> On this occasion, though, I felt that I simply had to take a firm, passionate,
> decisive stand on the Capitola seawall issue, albeit my resultant verbage came
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> squelch sincere debate. I am open to all criticism here. I certainly have it
> coming, I would admit. I would hope I can come of the cyber-doghouse soon.

Good.

Edward Hennessey
EarlCox - 11 May 2004 03:47 GMT
There is actually no rational response to your posting that would not force
me into the kind of flaming practice that I studiously avoid.

Perhaps you would care to re-read my previous messages. I simply said that
an exploration of the issues based on reasoned arguments that considered the
basic issues (safety, conservation, etc) would be a better approach than
screaming and name calling. I have never advocated, in any of my postings, a
personal position for or against the building of the seawall.

If an appeal to rational discourse, open mindedness, and a balanced
treatment of issues in an argument is dishonorable, then, indeed, my motives
have been dishonorable. I am, alas, a scoundrel and a pernicious trouble
maker. I can live with that.

You may reply with any comments you like.
I am finished with this thread.

Earl

> >Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
> >From: "EarlCox"
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
> down for a short while.)
John M - 10 May 2004 18:09 GMT
> Well, a flame war by any other name... <grin>
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> "Machine Intelligence Tools for Data Mining and Knowledge Discovery"
> (due Early Summer 2004)

Thank you for your words, I agree completely with you. I apologize to
you and everybody else in this fine newsgroup if I exceeded the tone
in some of my posts. My intention was never to start a flame war, just
to simply point out the fact that there is currently a valid
controversy going on at Capitola and that the help of experts is
needed in assesing the long term value, or not, of constructing an
fossil entombing seawall. I will not resort to false accusations or
disparaging coments. Again I apologize, and if anyone feels that the
right thing to do is to sign the petition, please do so, if you don't,
well don't sign it. We live in a democracy, and signing a petition or
not, is a fundamental part of it.
Best Regards,
John Miller

Monterey Bay Paleonyological Society
http://www.calcentral.com/~fossils/
Inyo - 10 May 2004 22:03 GMT
>Subject: Re: Help save a fossil site
>From: johnM541999@yahoo.com  (John M)
>Message-ID: <d989c8dc.0405100909.36ba6e19@posting.google.com>

> I apologize to
>you and everybody else in this fine newsgroup if I exceeded the tone
>in some of my posts

>My intention was never to start a flame war, just
>to simply point out the fact that there is currently a valid
>controversy going on at Capitola and that the help of experts is
>needed in assesing the long term value, or not, of constructing an
>fossil entombing seawall.

>John Miller

Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that, I reckon. As
I said elsewhere, my take is that the Capitola Planning Commission is,
unfortunately, on your side on this matter. Let's put it this way--I won't be
surprised if the seawall project is scuttled for an alternative, albeit
less-than-best option. This is not good, but it's out of my control, and stuff
has been known to happen, as it were.

Fossils At Death Valley National Park
http://mojave.topcities.com/dv/dvfossils.htm
(If you receive a topcities.com error message, please try again later on;
sometimes I exceed my day's allotted bandwidth and my server simply shuts me
down for a short while.)
 
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