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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / August 2004Piggyback reptiles
A renowned pterosaur expert has examined various fossils of prolacertiforms and pterosaurs and sees what he believes to be very young members of these groups accompanying their parents. He suggests that they cling on, possibly around the neck! http://pterosaurinfo.com/babies.html I am curious, does anyone know of examples of young reptiles riding piggyback on their mothers? I know that there is a least one (the poster child on one of the magic school bus books). I am also curious about the relationship between these critters and their egg laying habits and habitats, but I can probably look that up if you can point me in the right direction. Thanks, Evan Robinson > A renowned pterosaur expert has examined various fossils of > prolacertiforms and pterosaurs and sees what he believes to be very [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > habits and habitats, but I can probably look that up if you can point > me in the right direction. Define "reptile". How about grebes? > > A renowned pterosaur expert has examined various fossils of > > prolacertiforms and pterosaurs and sees what he believes to be very [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > habits and habitats, but I can probably look that up if you can point > > me in the right direction. > Define "reptile". I'll stay away from that one at this point. > How about grebes? Not quite what I had in mind, but perhaps even better! Apparently this behavior has been witnessed in swans, some ducks, coots, and loons as well. One worker suggest that Grebe parents take their 3-6 fledglings, hatched on a semi-floating nest of plant debris, and "often carry them piggyback, and may dive with their young held in place under the fold of the wings. The babies come loose and pop to the surface like downy corks." Another worker suggests that perhaps they hold on with their beaks, but can't understand how they learn anything while trying to hold on. The Common Loon always constructs its nest near water. The female usually lays two eggs. "The downy, black chicks leave the nest soon after they hatch and depend on the adults for food for about eight weeks. The young loon often rides "piggyback" on a parent, finding warmth, safety and security atop the more experienced bird. They soon learn to fish " I wonder, are all of these water birds that dive? Not all ducks do it, the chicks just kick alongside, so why do some do it and not others? Is it for safety, or are they learning to fish? At least one of the fossils where the fossil pterodactyl embryos may appear are fossilized in the water. The hypothesized pterosaur chicks are hypothesized to hang on, perhaps with arms and claws, perhaps around the neck!? I have a few first hand experiences with lizards being very hard to remove from one's finger while they are holding with their teeth. Thanks! Evan Robinson P.S. Come on herpists, how about some squamates? Do I have to go look for that Magic School Bus book at the bookstore? >I wonder, are all of these water birds that dive? Not all ducks do it, >the chicks just kick alongside, so why do some do it and not others? >Is it for safety, or are they learning to fish? Ducklings are prey for snapping turtles and large carnivorous fish such as pike around here, so riding on a parent's back, at least when the parent isn't diving, should provide some safety for water bird chicks. >At least one of the fossils where the fossil pterodactyl embryos may >appear are fossilized in the water. The hypothesized pterosaur chicks >are hypothesized to hang on, perhaps with arms and claws, perhaps >around the neck!? I have a few first hand experiences with lizards >being very hard to remove from one's finger while they are holding >with their teeth. IIRC, some female bats carry their infants with them when hunting. I don't know how the infants cling. Of course marsupials carry their young around in a pouch, and many primates move around with their infants clinging to their fur. Human infants still have that grasping reflex, and a pregnant woman's hair grows faster and thicker, presumably to provide something to grab. (If you have long hair, and handle a baby, you'll find that they seem to really *want* to grab it! Beards, too.) Did pterosaurs have some kind of hairy insulating coat? It would be a nice refinement if they grew parts of it longer in the appropriate season to give their offspring something to hang on to, but I wouldn't count on a fossil being found that could demonstrate it. I suppose viviparous pterosaurs are conceivable, and the fossil is an eviscerated specimen with its unborn offspring. >P.S. Come on herpists, how about some squamates? Do I have to go look >for that Magic School Bus book at the bookstore? Most squamates don't do parental care beyond hiding and sometimes guarding their eggs. The ones that do would be the first place to look. Squamates that both have parental care and glide or swim may be the null set. Let us know what you find out. I'm not a herpetologist or even a "herpist", but I hope this handwaving helps! > In article <5c132457.0407302008.33e2bd43@posting.google.com>, > > evan robinson <evanrobinson@excite.com> wrote: > > > >I wonder, are all of these water birds that dive? Not all ducks do it, > >the chicks just kick alongside, so why do some do it and not others? > >Is it for safety, or are they learning to fish? > Ducklings are prey for snapping turtles and large carnivorous fish such > as pike around here, so riding on a parent's back, at least when the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > handle a baby, you'll find that they seem to really *want* to grab it! > Beards, too.) Very interesting, nice post. So the ducks learn or exhibit the behavior when required. Still, I can't help but wonder if the ducklings might learn some fishing under there, but perhaps not. The mammals seem to be great examples of offspring being carried around while they are not learning anything. Safety for the offspring, or even convenience for the parent. Of course, somehow in our greater capacity for learning, mammals are very slow starters. Our parents have to be able to either carry us around or leave us someplace safe. They can't stay "in the nest" for a year waiting for us to be able to learn something. Curious about the bats. > Did pterosaurs have some kind of hairy insulating coat? It would be a > nice refinement if they grew parts of it longer in the appropriate > season to give their offspring something to hang on to, but I wouldn't > count on a fossil being found that could demonstrate it. There are a few. Jun-Chang LÜ found that BPM 0002 had Aktinofibril (thick wing stiffening fibers), curved elastic small fibers in the inner part of the wing, smaller wing stiffening fibers, and additionally: thin, short, fur-like structures on the neck. Wang et al (2002) claimed that the pterosaur Jeholopterus ningchengensis had fibers similar to the theropod Sinornithosaurus, and suggested a common origin for the integument, these fibers were wide spread over the body. Czerkas and Ji claim Pterorhynchus wellnhoferi has hairs near the base of it's large crest, 5 to 8 mm in length, as well as similar fibers all over its body. Cosesaurus has something. Mr. Peters appears to be skeptical of some of these claims, but unequivocally states that Sordes has neck hair, this may be the prevailing view. I would think that if some pterosaurs have neck hair, and it would appear that some do, that they would also have body hair. So, as you suggest, baby pterosaurs would have something to grab on to. > I suppose viviparous pterosaurs are conceivable, and the fossil is an > eviscerated specimen with its unborn offspring. Logical conclusion. Mr. Peters also recently wrote a paper suggesting viviparity. However, as he was submitting this paper for review, what clearly appears to be a Pterosaur embryo inhabited, hard-shelled egg was found, which has caused much skepticism. Additionally, all known archosauromorphs (except for the cuckoo), as well as turtles, and even the extant lepidosaur Sphenodon, have a condition known as embryonic diapause, meaning that their eggs suspend development if retained in the uterus, and only resume development after they have been laid. Thus, prolonged retention of the eggs, which could occur for various adaptive reasons, and which is the predecessor to viviparity, will never occur, and therefore viviparity will never develop. However, apparently some but not all chameleons also have embryonic diapause, while others are viviparous. I suggested that if basal prolacertiforms were very close to the Lepidosauromorph, Archosauromorph, and squamate division of families, before this condition became obligatory, then perhaps they could develop soft-shell, hard-shell, and viviparous births as do the extant geckos. > >P.S. Come on herpists, how about some squamates? Do I have to go look > >for that Magic School Bus book at the bookstore? I shouldn't have said that. In fact immediately after I wrote that, I found that I had already been kindly emailed the following message from Zolota: "crocodiles". > Most squamates don't do parental care beyond hiding and sometimes guarding > their eggs. The ones that do would be the first place to look. Squamates > that both have parental care and glide or swim may be the null set. Let > us know what you find out. Good thinking. Although not squamates, interestingly this does describe crocodiles. Nice picture at: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/potm-jan99.html I'm not sure how many they can carry. > I'm not a herpetologist or even a "herpist", but I hope this handwaving > helps! You bet. Thanks, Evan Robinson > A renowned pterosaur expert has examined various fossils of > prolacertiforms and pterosaurs and sees what he believes to be very [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Evan Robinson These animals are so far removed from what I was taught to think of as a reptile that using the word is deceptive when applied to them. Red-eared slider (turtle) babies sometimes piggy back on adult sliders. It's actually quite common. Mike > A renowned pterosaur expert has examined various fossils of > prolacertiforms and pterosaurs and sees what he believes to be very [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Evan Robinson David peter's view about piggyback pterosaurs should be taken quite cautiously. Hes view is based on his photoshop tracings, in other words he is using photoshop as kind of microscope. Now, this system is quite problematic because it also traces sediment discolorations. So hes linedrawings show frills and crest's and babies. Personally I'm not buying the idea of babys hanging all ove pterosaur mommys. But, never say never ;) now...about the pterosaur fur. There is quite many pterosaur specimens that show such insulation, propably the most famous is Sordes pilosus. Ville |
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