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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / November 2004Re: straight body (Re: moore blabla (Re: Is SCIENCE magazine 2 or more years behind; Re: Orrorin
Marc Verhaegen: > Mario Petrinovich: > You don't need a > straight body to run on 2 legs. Our linear body (head & body & legs in 1 > line- not necessary for bipedalism, see kangaroos & hopping indris) is an > argument for a (partly) swimming lifestyle once. It can't be explained by > wading alone. > >> Or a plunge diving lifestyle, : )? -- Mario > > No, Mario: there are no indications for such lifestyle. --Marc (Only) plunge diving birds meet your description. Upright linear body. -- Mario >>>> You don't need a straight body to run on 2 legs. Our linear body (head & body & legs in 1 line - not necessary for bipedalism, see kangaroos & hopping indris) is an argument for a (partly) swimming lifestyle once. It can't be explained by wading alone. >>> Or a plunge diving lifestyle, : )? -- Mario >> No, Mario: there are no indications for such lifestyle. --Marc > (Only) plunge diving birds meet your description. Upright linear body. -- Mario Nose first into the water? :-) Well, we're much too slow & heavy for that. Our well-developed tool use, thick-boned relatives etc. suggest our ancestors were (parttime) slow divers (predom. for shellfish) rather than plunge divers (predom. for fish - IMO our ancestors only rel.recently (<200 ka) learned to fish regularly: when they used nets & fished together, wading, not swimming). --Marc Marc Verhaegen: > Mario Petrinovich: >>>>> You don't need a straight body to run on 2 legs. Our linear body (head [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > ka) learned to fish regularly: when they used nets & fished together, > wading, not swimming). --Marc Not for fish. For shellfish. Standing in a shallow water, you are easy target for cats (Jim Moore is right here, IMHO). You must enter water, where water is deep enough so that you can swim (Proboscis monkey). Only when you start to swim, you are safe from cats. To gain distance, or go deeper in a search for shellfish, it is better to plunge dive into water. See today's swimming competitions. How they are entering water? By plunge diving. The best way. -- Mario > >>>>> You don't need a straight body to run on 2 legs. Our linear body (head & body & legs in 1 line - not necessary for bipedalism, see kangaroos & hopping indris) is an argument for a (partly) swimming lifestyle once. It can't be explained by wading alone. > >>>> Or a plunge diving lifestyle, : )? -- Mario > >>> No, Mario: there are no indications for such lifestyle. --Marc > >> (Only) plunge diving birds meet your description. Upright linear body. > > Nose first into the water? :-) Well, we're much too slow & heavy for that. Our well-developed tool use, thick-boned relatives etc. suggest our ancestors were (parttime) slow divers (predom. for shellfish) rather than plunge divers (predom. for fish - IMO our ancestors only rel.recently (<200 ka) learned to fish regularly: when they used nets & fished together, wading, not swimming). --Marc > Not for fish. For shellfish. OK, although plunge-diving birds plung for fish, no? > Standing in a shallow water, you are easy target for cats (Jim Moore is right here, IMHO). Few cats at the beach IMO. Or even in mangrove forest? > You must enter water, where water is deep enough so that you can swim (Proboscis monkey). Only when you start to swim, you are safe from cats. To gain distance, or go deeper in a search for shellfish, it is better to plunge dive into water. See today's swimming competitions. How they are entering water? By plunge diving. The best way. -- Mario It's perhaps a theoretically possible way when there are cliffs where you can jump off. But most coasts are not like that (not everybody lives in Croatia), our ancestors are not found there (but maybe due to fossilisation probabilities), eg, Terra Amata, Boxgrove, but AFAICS generally in flat coasts, our feet are not made for rocks etc.etc. --Marc Marc Verhaegen: >Mario Petrinovich: >> > Nose first into the water? :-) Well, we're much too slow & heavy [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > OK, although plunge-diving birds plung for fish, no? Yes. But plunging is for what they are adapted (straight body, covered nostrils). >> Standing in a shallow water, you are easy target for cats (Jim Moore is > right here, IMHO). > > Few cats at the beach IMO. Or even in mangrove forest? No. If monkeys are in mangrove forest, predators are, as well. I saw a documentary about african mangrove forest. African lynx comes every day to eat. Tiger in mangroves in India. Very well know, and researched case. You have a big national park there. Full of tigers. >> You must enter water, where water is deep enough so that you can swim > (Proboscis monkey). Only when you start to swim, you are safe from cats. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > probabilities), eg, Terra Amata, Boxgrove, but AFAICS generally in flat > coasts, our feet are not made for rocks etc.etc. --Marc Unfortunatelly, there are not a lot of places on a Croatian coast, that match description. I am repeating, I didn't make my scenario on a Croatian model. It just happens that Croatia has long rocky coast, and that I have a lot experience with rocky coast. I might sound funny, to you, but I am not THAT funny, ; ). Lol. I have a big (500 pages), beautiful book, about coasts. "Coasts - Form, process and evolution", Woodroffe, Cambridge University Press. You can find everything about coasts, there, Marc. (Vertical) cliffs can form in a more resistant stone. It is interesting example of Cretaceaus chalk, on both sides of English Channel. Which contains flint. "The flint weathers out of the chalk, supplaying material to the shingle beaches of the shores of the Channel. This flint assists in abresion of the rock face, as well as contributing to the beach at the cliff foot." I am apsolutely positive that our feet are made for rocky coast. Gluteus Maximus assist in climbing stairs. This is a typical rocky coast mode of locomotion. Gluteus Maximus is the bigest muscle in our body. -- Mario > Marc Verhaegen: > >Mario Petrinovich: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > mode of locomotion. Gluteus Maximus is the bigest muscle in our body. > -- Mario Thanks for the answer, Mario, esp. on felids in mangroves, but we're repeating ourselves: I can't see any connection (anatomical, comparative, paleo-environmental...) between hominids/Homo & cliff-hanging. --Marc Marc Verhaegen: > we're > repeating ourselves: I can't see any connection (anatomical, comparative, > paleo-environmental...) between hominids/Homo & cliff-hanging. --Marc I said it numerous times. We are just born for this. We have valgus knee, we have knee lock, we have lock in foot. Adduction/abduction ability. This all helps, just for cliff-hanging. I'll speak to climbers, to see their oppinion, one of these days. -- Mario |
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