With respect to Archimedes Plutunium's recent posts, it should be
noted that Bramble and Lieberman (2004, Nature 432: 345-352) make the
following statements: "Judged by several criteria, humans perform
remarkably well at endurance running, thanks to a diverse array of
features, many of which leave traces in the skeleton. The fossil
evidence of these features suggests that endurance running is a
derived capability of the genus Homo, originating about 2 million
years ago, and may have been instrumental in the evolution of the
human body form."
As far as I understand it, AP's stone-throwing theory proposes that
the modern human capacity for accurate overarm throwing originated in
a common ancestor of Oreopithecus and Orrorin (and hence, presumably,
of all australopithecines as well as Homo spp.). Such an ancestor
lived no later than 7-9 million years ago (late Miocene; see e.g.
Kohler & Moya-Sola 1997,
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/94/21/11747).
The two hypotheses attempt to explain two entirely separate stages of
human evolution occurring millions of years apart. Criticism of either
hypothesis, on the grounds that it does not explain the same
observations as the other, is therefore entirely illogical.
They may, of course, be rivals for attention or 'status' in their role
as memes, which compete for space in our minds and on the tips of our
tongues rather than over the explanation of facts. It's quite
understandable for a proponent of one to show some impatience and
rhetorically attack another theory in order to divert attention to his
own, but it ain't science. (Personal attacks would be even worse, but
obviously a common enough occurrence in actual, as opposed to ideal,
scientific debate).
But anyway, thanks to AP for inciting a Google search on Oreopithecus
which I hadn't seen much about before (though I'd seen bits an' pieces
of it in a poky little museum in Florence). In a review of a 1997 book
on Miocene apes, H. McHenry wrote "The placement of Oreopithecus had
been hotly debated for decades, but in this book there is remarkable
agreement among the different authors. T. Harrison and L. Rook address
this issue most thoroughly and find overwhelming evidence in its
postcrania of a close relationship to the living great apes and
Dryopithecus". As shown by Kohler and Moya-Sola (PNAS 1997, link
above), the shape of the lumbar vertebrae is Homo-like, different from
other primates, and implies curvature of the spine as in bipedal us;
but the feet are derived in a completely opposite manner, with an
enormous gap and divergence between the big toe and the others. This
has been compared to a bird foot, and would have been quite good for
standing bipedally (as well as gripping branches or trunks, like the
chimp or indriid lemur foot which have independently evolved long and
divergent first toes for climbing), but useless for walking or running
in a human manner. The highly derived foot structure makes it unlikely
that Oreopithecus is ancestral to anything with a 'straight' foot like
ours or Gorilla's.
Here's cheers to all palaeoanthropologists, primatologists and
polymaths.
Ken Shaw - 23 Nov 2004 06:03 GMT
> With respect to Archimedes Plutunium's recent posts, it should be
> noted that Bramble and Lieberman (2004, Nature 432: 345-352) make the
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> Here's cheers to all palaeoanthropologists, primatologists and
> polymaths.
Please stop taking Archy P seriously. IOW stop feeding the trolls!
Ken
John Scanlon - 24 Nov 2004 03:17 GMT
<snip>
> Please stop taking Archy P seriously. IOW stop feeding the trolls!
>
> Ken
Pardon me, Ranger Ken, I didn't realised I'd encroached on your troll sanctuary.
John
Archimedes Plutonium - 24 Nov 2004 10:11 GMT
> With respect to Archimedes Plutunium's recent posts, it should be
> noted that Bramble and Lieberman (2004, Nature 432: 345-352) make the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Kohler & Moya-Sola 1997,
> http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/94/21/11747).
John, of course there is going to be a time difference between the
Running theory and the Stonethrowing theory. Because the Stonethrowing
theory creates bipedalism and further along in time creates running from
walking. So the Stonethrowing theory goes back far beyond 2 million years
to the time when pre-humans were still quadrapeds. You should not be
faulting the Stonethrowing theory because it extends out to 8 million
years and includes the last 2 million years of running.
> The two hypotheses attempt to explain two entirely separate stages of
> human evolution occurring millions of years apart. Criticism of either
> hypothesis, on the grounds that it does not explain the same
> observations as the other, is therefore entirely illogical.
What is illogical John is for you and Lieberman and Bramble to utterly
ignore Stonethrowing as if Running were a one overarching behaviour and
that Throwing was left out of the picture altogether.
The gist of my arguments say that the bone and muscle changes from
Oreopithecus on down to humanity is almost impossible to separate out the
need for Running and the need for precision Throwing as connected to the
increase in buttock. An increased buttock is needed for precison
throwing. So it is brazen of Lieberman and Bramble to say that the
increase in buttock is solely due to a need for Running. Likewise for
shortened arms and for changes of the skull and changes of the legs and
vertabrae.
The Lieberman and Bramble analysis is lacking the percentage input of
Throwing that changed the shape of bone and muscle not only for the past
2 million years but the past 8 million years. And Neanderthal species is
a clear example of a species unable to Throw as well as CroMagnon. Not
only a poor Thrower but a poor Runner because Throwing efficiency
increases running abilities.
There are several bones of prehumans that tells almost the entire story
going back 8 million years. It is the Rotator Cuff and opposable thumb
region and the eye region. Those regions have changed more than any other
in the last 8 million years and there changes are due to Throwing
abilities, not Running abilities.
So if we compare the changes of Rotator Cuff and opposable thumb region
and eye region to make Throwing more efficient then those changes
required 8 million years whereas the changes of leg and buttock and
forearm for running are less needed because they are a small percent of
the changes needed for Throwing.
> They may, of course, be rivals for attention or 'status' in their role
> as memes, which compete for space in our minds and on the tips of our
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> obviously a common enough occurrence in actual, as opposed to ideal,
> scientific debate).
Pointing out a huge gap is not attacking. It maybe emphasis. Emphasis
that Mr. Lieberman and Bramble forgot about Convergent behaviours. Since
Throwing converges with running. Many of the bones and muscles for
Running first have to be created for Throwing.
> But anyway, thanks to AP for inciting a Google search on Oreopithecus
> which I hadn't seen much about before (though I'd seen bits an' pieces
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> above), the shape of the lumbar vertebrae is Homo-like, different from
> other primates, and implies curvature of the spine as in bipedal us;
It is not clear to me whether Oreopithecus was proven biped, whether the
femur had a Pickford groove in it proving Oreopithecus was biped. I do
know Orrorin was proven biped. So I am not on firm ideas with
Oreopithecus. For I simply do not know the extent of the fossil bones
found for Oreopithecus. I do know there is a rumor that Oreopithecus was
biped. So I will accept the rumor as confirmation.
> but the feet are derived in a completely opposite manner, with an
> enormous gap and divergence between the big toe and the others. This
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Here's cheers to all palaeoanthropologists, primatologists and
> polymaths.
Well it is good that you mention Oreopithecus feet. Perhaps Oreo was not
a biped and if so then Oreo may have been like our modern day chimp of
underarm throwing quadraped. I could live with that idea. Then Orrorin
would be the first human line and not Oreopithecus. Orrorin would thus be
the Overarm biped. Where the Overarm throwing created the bipedalism.
Where Oreopithecus gave rise to Orrorin.
There probably are not enough bones of Oreopithecus to tell us much about
Throwing or bipedalism.
But I hope that someday soon these digsites are given more attention to
detail as to whether a pile of rocks is found in the same layers as the
pre-human fossils, rocks that were used for throwing.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies