>A little attempt at a conversation starter:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Would anyone care to discuss that on any level? Do you like Budd &
>Jensen? Do you take issue with it? Do you have a different favorite?
It's probably a good subject for discussion, but discussing the paper
entails reading it -- a problem for those of us who are a number of
miles and an outrageous parking situation from a decent library.
There is an abstract of the Budd and Jensen paper at
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed
&list_uids=10881389&dopt=Abstract
for anyone who wants to discuss this.
Is there a more complete summary someplace on the Internet, and if so
would someone care to post a link?
John Harshman - 18 Feb 2005 03:31 GMT
>>A little attempt at a conversation starter:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Is there a more complete summary someplace on the Internet, and if so
> would someone care to post a link?
Just in case it's easier to find, Budd had a similar paper here:
Budd, G. E. 2003. The Cambrian fossil record and the origin of the
phyla. Integr. Comp. Biol. 43:157-165.
>A little attempt at a conversation starter:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Would anyone care to discuss that on any level? Do you like Budd &
>Jensen? Do you take issue with it? Do you have a different favorite?
I shouldn't express an opinion on a paper that I haven't read. But
I'm going to. I gather from the abstract that Jensen and Budd are
arguing that the actual differentation of MOST modern phyla is
somewhat more recent than current interpretations of the fossil record
suggest.
I can live with that with a caveat.
It is pretty clear that at least four of the comparatively small
number of phyla that paleontologists have traditionally concerned
themselves with -- arthropoda, chordata, echinodermata, and
brachiopoda really do show up in the fossil record virtually
simultaneously and with many (most? all? of their identifying
characteristics in place) . A fifth -- porifera -- predates them
considerably (but it's not part of bilaterata). Two other major phyla
-- cnidaria and mollusca -- might postdate or predate the Cambrian
Explosion by a bit, and we may never know which. Bryozoa and
Graptolites really do show up later. Other than that, most phyla are
either oddities living on the teeth of Norwegian lobsters or "worms".
The problem with "worms" is that except for teeth (conodonts and
chaetognaths), they don't fossilize well and even when they are
fossilized the characteristics that make them different usually aren't
preserved.
If you think "worms" are important, then Budd and Jensen may well be
dead on. We don't (and may never) know when, how, or why they
differentiated.
A point. Notwithstanding that there are lots of Early and PreCambrian
fossils known, the fossil record from those times may be largely
hopeless as far as intelligent interpretation goes. There are simply
too many forms and too little meaningful information about how they
are interrelated. It looks to me like systematics with or without
cladistics is about as good as tarot cards if you don't have enough
meangful data to apply it to. Doesn't mean that there is nothing to
be learned by studying those fossils, just that they are unlikely to
yield much of the information that we'd like to have.
I gather that the problem with Budd and Jensen's paper isn't a problem
with the paper at all. It is that it has fallen into some sort of
metaphysical debate between Creationist nutcases and anti-creationists
who aren't much better. These beauties are conducting a raucous
debate about how many intermediate features can dance on the head of a
pin. As a result if there are intelligent discussions of Budd and
Jensen's thoughts on the Internet or Usenet, they are buried in heaps
of creatonist and anti-creatonist nonsense.
John Harshman - 20 Feb 2005 15:25 GMT
>>A little attempt at a conversation starter:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> dead on. We don't (and may never) know when, how, or why they
> differentiated.
I'm afraid that you have come to a misapprehension of what Budd and
Jensen are claiming. They aren't talking about anything that's not in
the fossil record, or even about the times of origin of phyla, per se.
What they're claiming is that most known Cambrian fossils do not fit
within the crown groups of any modern phyla. That is, they lack at least
some of the characteristics that define the phyla today. That doesn't
tell us when those crown groups evolved, because we might not have found
the right fossils yet. It just tells us we can't be sure these crown
groups evolved in the Cambrian. It also tells us that we can't say "all
modern phyla evolved in the Cambrian explosion", not even the ones with
good fossil records.
(Definition of "crown group" in case it's not clear: the most recent
common ancestor of all living species in a group, and all its
descendants. Thus the vertebrate crown group would consist of the common
ancestor of hagfish, lampreys, and gnathostomes, and all its descendants.)
> A point. Notwithstanding that there are lots of Early and PreCambrian
> fossils known, the fossil record from those times may be largely
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Jensen's thoughts on the Internet or Usenet, they are buried in heaps
> of creatonist and anti-creatonist nonsense.
I have no idea what that meant.