Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Biology
BiologyBotanyMicrobiologyEntomologyEvolutionPaleontology
Chemistry
General ChemistryAnalytical ChemistryElectrochemistryOrganic Synthesis
Earth Science
GeologyMineralogyOceanographyMeteorologyEarthquakes
Physics
General PhysicsResearchRelativityParticle PhysicsElectromagnetismFusionOpticsAcousticsNew Theories

Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / September 2005



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

TOBS: Ape to Man on the history channel

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 12:49 GMT
I am sure many of you seen the show; a religious events for
evolutionist no doubt.

First correct me if I am wrong, well many of you will say that I am
wrong regardless, but I am going to make the point anyway.

The title: Ape to Man, Per evolution science. Man is an Ape. So I would
deem the title as Misleading at best.

Neamderthal: I believe this creature existed, But where did they get
the idea that thes guys rub deer dung on themselves to hunt deer.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 13:01 GMT
I notice also how the show tries to keep a complete distinction between
man and ape.
Phÿltêr - 08 Aug 2005 13:35 GMT
[posted and mailed]

> I am sure many of you seen the show; a religious events for
> evolutionist no doubt.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The title: Ape to Man, Per evolution science. Man is an Ape. So I would
> deem the title as Misleading at best.

Man IS an ape!! What makes you think he isn't????

> Neamderthal: I believe this creature existed, But where did they get
> the idea that thes guys rub deer dung on themselves to hunt deer.

Well, grasshopper, what better way to mask their odour, than with the odour
of deer? Surely you can see the logic here....

Signature

Phÿltêr
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 13:56 GMT
> [posted and mailed]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Man IS an ape!! What makes you think he isn't????

Did you see the show? If you did, you would know what I am talking
about.

> > Neamderthal: I believe this creature existed, But where did they get
> > the idea that thes guys rub deer dung on themselves to hunt deer.
>
> Well, grasshopper, what better way to mask their odour, than with the odour
> of deer? Surely you can see the logic here....

speculation, when did the neanderthal decided to smear dung on himself.
Other predators don not follow this trend.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 15:06 GMT
>Other predators don not follow this trend.

Other predators never invented firearms, automobiles or GPS devices
either. Humans - and their ancestors - have a way of solving problems
by thinking outside the box.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 15:19 GMT
> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
>
> Other predators never invented firearms, automobiles or GPS devices
> either. Humans - and their ancestors - have a way of solving problems
> by thinking outside the box.

True enough, isn't odd that only Hominid could? Tell us all, what
humans today smear dung on themselves to hunt?
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 16:02 GMT
>True enough, isn't odd that only Hominid could?

Not really. Humans are far more intelligent than most animal
counterparts - it would be expected that they are a tad more
resourceful.

>what humans today smear dung on themselves to >hunt?

Several tribes in Africa, South America...many North American hobby
hunters also purchase deer urine scent so that they don't frighten off
the bucks.
kathryn - 08 Aug 2005 16:08 GMT
>> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> True enough, isn't odd that only Hominid could? Tell us all, what
> humans today smear dung on themselves to hunt?

Im  sure they do where their main food source is obtained by hunting.  I'm
not sure why it's such a mind blowing concept for you
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 20:08 GMT
> >> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Im  sure they do where their main food source is obtained by hunting.  I'm
> not sure why it's such a mind blowing concept for you

I live in New Jersey, Bow hunting is popular, I know a few hunters,
none of them smear dung on themselves to hunt deer.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 20:26 GMT
>I know a few hunters,
>none of them smear dung on themselves to hunt deer.

Maybe they just aren't very good at what they do:
http://www.fastestbows.com/articles/TWF/synthetic_deer_lures.html
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 21:01 GMT
> >I know a few hunters,
> >none of them smear dung on themselves to hunt deer.
>
> Maybe they just aren't very good at what they do:
> http://www.fastestbows.com/articles/TWF/synthetic_deer_lures.html

the article refers to deer urine in heat. nothing here about smearing
deer doo. Your credibility is going the way of the titanic.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 21:14 GMT
> >I know a few hunters,
> >none of them smear dung on themselves to hunt deer.
>
> Maybe they just aren't very good at what they do:
> http://www.fastestbows.com/articles/TWF/synthetic_deer_lures.html

The article relates to urine of estrous doe.s or bucks in musk. Nothing
here about hunters smearing dear doo on themselves.
Your credibility is going the way of the titanic.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 21:18 GMT
>Nothing
>here about hunters smearing dear doo on >themselves.
>Your credibility is going the way of the titanic.

When did I say hunters smeared dung on themselves? I said
urine...URINE. Whatever your opinion of my credibility, at least I can
read properly.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 23:04 GMT
> >I know a few hunters,
> >none of them smear dung on themselves to hunt deer.
>
> Maybe they just aren't very good at what they do:
> http://www.fastestbows.com/articles/TWF/synthetic_deer_lures.html

the article refers to deer urine in heat. nothing here about smearing
deer doo. Your credibility is going the way of the titanic.
kathryn - 08 Aug 2005 22:39 GMT
>> >> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I live in New Jersey, Bow hunting is popular, I know a few hunters,
> none of them smear dung on themselves to hunt deer.

So? As I said "main food source".  You don't have supermarkets in New
Jersey?
Hunting as a sport is entirely different to hunting to survive.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 22:56 GMT
> So? As I said "main food source".  You don't have supermarkets in New
> Jersey?
> Hunting as a sport is entirely different to hunting to survive.

I know hunters in northen canada that hunt to survive, and they do not
smear deer do on themselves.
kathryn - 08 Aug 2005 23:09 GMT
>> So? As I said "main food source".  You don't have supermarkets in New
>> Jersey?
>> Hunting as a sport is entirely different to hunting to survive.
>
> I know hunters in northen canada that hunt to survive, and they do not
> smear deer do on themselves.

Why do you find it so incredibly implausible? - animals can have a sensitive
sense of smell, humans smell quite a bit, is it so completely unlikely that
hunters would smear themselves with excrement to mask their natural body
odour? It actually makes sense.   Maybe not in Northern Canada where I
assume they need to wear clothes but at least our less well clothed
ancestors or some of the more remote tribes that still exist, there's
nothing stopping them.
Zod - 08 Aug 2005 23:20 GMT
> >> So? As I said "main food source".  You don't have supermarkets in New
> >> Jersey?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> hunters would smear themselves with excrement to mask their natural body
> odour? It actually makes sense.

Does it? You made a mistake. Which tell your level of knowledge on the
subject.
Human per science are animals.

Second, the Show, said, the neaderthals smear themselves with dung.
What is thier source of scientific data, that this occured?

>  Maybe not in Northern Canada where I
> assume they need to wear clothes but at least our less well clothed
> ancestors or some of the more remote tribes that still exist, there's
> nothing stopping them.

Don't kn ow of any African tribe that smear themselves of Dung to hunt
neither.
kathryn - 08 Aug 2005 23:50 GMT
>> >> So? As I said "main food source".  You don't have supermarkets in New
>> >> Jersey?
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Don't kn ow of any African tribe that smear themselves of Dung to hunt
> neither.

Neither do I, but then I don't study anthropology.  Im just pointing out
that the idea that people did it/do it, isn't implausible
Nog - 11 Aug 2005 15:11 GMT
>> >> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I live in New Jersey, Bow hunting is popular, I know a few hunters,
> none of them smear dung on themselves to hunt deer.

Anything that would mask your own smell would work. Any simple minded
neanderthal would know that.
Cracklin' - 11 Aug 2005 17:40 GMT
>>> >> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
>>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Anything that would mask your own smell would work. Any simple minded
> neanderthal would know that.
==============================
The American Indians (I was told by a Navajo) used strong smelling weeds
like wild onions, skunk cabbage and such.  Surely the Neanderthals had sense
enough to do the same.  Please remove irrelevant NGs such as rec.ponds from
these endless anti-evolution Jabber threads.  Thanks!
Signature

CR........
The JWs keep saying it (Armageddon) is imminent, just a matter of time,
only a matter of weeks or months from the predicted date:  1874(+40),
1878(+40), 1910,
1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1922, 1925, 1940, 1945, 1975, 1999/2000...
LATEST DATE: 2034  Come get your predictions and palm read by the GB!
Just one WRONG date after another - they're truly inspired by *GASP* demons!
"If he is a false prophet (like the GB), his prophecy will fail to come to
pass."
(Watchtower, 5/15/30).
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Javriol - 11 Aug 2005 19:14 GMT
> >>> >> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
> >>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> like wild onions, skunk cabbage and such.  Surely the Neanderthals had sense
> enough to do the same.

The Navajo was taking you for a ride. Nobody know what sense the
Neanderthal had, because there are no Neanderthal alive. Then again you
are known to be a liar. You probly don't even know what a Navajo is.

>Please remove irrelevant NGs such as rec.ponds from
> these endless anti-evolution Jabber threads.  Thanks!
> --

Carol gets embarrased because she has been outed as a liar, on her own
ng which is rec.ponds. She has told everyone there that she has kill
file Jabriol, and that she does not participate in a Jabber thread. She
has been outed by her own, and AFN
Charles - 08 Aug 2005 20:28 GMT
>> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>True enough, isn't odd that only Hominid could? Tell us all, what
>humans today smear dung on themselves to hunt?

They learned it watching dogs and cats.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 20:53 GMT
> >> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> They learned it watching dogs and cats.

Dogs are scavengers not predators, and they rub themselves more on dead
animals, than dung or feces.

Any other bright ideas sherlock?
Don't know about cats. Which species of cats you are reffering to?
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 21:14 GMT
>Dogs are scavengers not predators

So wolves, dingos and wild African dogs don't hunt at all?
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 23:00 GMT
> >Dogs are scavengers not predators
>
> So wolves, dingos and wild African dogs don't hunt at all?

they do. maybe you can dig up some in fo where they smear dung on
themsleves to mask their scent. And I am waiting on the info on those
german wild dogs. What exactly are they called?
Cracklin' - 09 Aug 2005 03:01 GMT
> >Dogs are scavengers not predators
>
> So wolves, dingos and wild African dogs don't hunt at all?
=================================
He's going by the Watchtower Society magazines and books.  Domestic dogs are
excellent hunters.  There was a problem here with them being dumped out on
the back roads.  People are too lazy to bring them to the shelters in nearby
cities.   They think the country people want all these dogs and cats.  They
soon start feeding off wildlife and farmer's livestock.  Some I assume
starve to death (the small or old dogs). Common dogs will band together and
can easily pull down a grown deer.  Cats will go after small rabbits and
young poultry.
Signature

CR.........
"I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods,
then you
will know why I dismiss yours."     -=  Stephen F. Roberts  =-
~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*

TheAmazingPuppyWizard@Mail.Com - 09 Aug 2005 02:33 GMT
HOWEDY Javriol,

> > >> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
> > >>
> > >> Other predators never invented firearms,
> > >> automobiles or GPS devices either.

Other critter don't have opposable thumbs and language.

> > >> Humans - and their ancestors - have a way of
> > >> solving problems by thinking outside the box.

Today they HAVE TO, on accHOWENT of they're so HOWET
of SYNCH with NATURE. Hardly ANY WON of us could survive
life as a dog EVEN under the BEST of circumstances. Take
that plush 5th Ave Poodle style locked in a crate 16-20
HOWERS a day and compare that to the sato's arHOWEND the
corner and you'll SEE and KNOW dogs are SMARTER THAN PEOPLE
in order to SURVIVE, in their own doGidly ways, of curse.

Einstein sez 'we can't C-HOWENT on the GENIUS that
got us into this mess to get us HOWET of it.' BET
ON IT, it's a SHORE THING <{); ~ ) >

> > > True enough, isn't odd that only Hominid could?

Had to, otherWIZE the dogs an wolves would predate on them.

> > > Tell us all, what humans today smear dung on
> > > themselves to hunt?

Was watchin Nat. Geo T.V. the other nite abHOWET
some primitve man stuff, and they said ancient
hundters did so. I don't suppose it's much different
than say..., hmmm... PUTTIN DEER PISS on yourself
when you take your HI-PHOWER Remington with HI-PHOWER
scope and blow a hole between Bambie's eyeballs from
a mountain top away just for the heel of it.

At least dogs don't kill for pleasure, ordinarily.

> > They learned it watching dogs and cats.

Wolves would scavenge, given the opportunity. Put
a pack of 'm next to a food supply like a garbage
dump and they might never hunt anyting that doesn't
CROSS THEIR PATH <{): ~ ) >

> Dogs are scavengers not predators,

Domestic dogs are scavengers. Wild dogs predate.
There's never enough scraps to fill every belly.

> and they rub themselves more on dead animals,
> than dung or feces.

Seems dead critters would be more pungent but
poop is EVERYWHERE, so maybe it's just a trade
off.  It could be dogs prefer eatin poop to
carrion on accHOWENT of so many folks got problems
for their dogs eatin ca ca then swallowin dead
pigeons on the curb, yet those same dogs would
likely roll in carrion, mabye take a bone but
wouldn't likely lick up a squashed pigeon.

Would you?

Even a kat mightn't do that, preferin to catch
live killed food, as would anyWON else, of curse,
EXXXCEPT a buzzard or gator or sumpthin <{): ~ ) >

You gotta know the NATURE of the beast.

> Any other bright ideas sherlock?

Lots. Got any pressing questions?

Wanna know HOWE COME dogs eat poop? On accHOWENT
of their HOWEsbreakin trainin. Did you ever consider
HOWE COME so many dogs have HOWEsbreakin problems,
DESPITE that HOWEsbreakin is INSTINCTIVE at four
weeks? That's on accHOWENT of any three week old
puppy got all the brains he needs to HOWEtwit the
cunning of the professional domestic puppy dog
trainer or university trained veterinary ethologist.

Ask professor SCRUFF SHAKE dermer or dr. mark plonsky
of UofWI. They'll tell you so themselves... or dermer's
own dog's CASE HISTORY will, for SHORE.

> Don't know about cats.

INSCRUTABLE, ain't they... BWEEEEEEHAHAHHAAA!!!

KATS is the same as dogs, in many respects, bein
that they're just a critter tryin to make it another
kat day in kat class an kat style. Some folks would
DEPRIVE them of THAT, given that kats are of Satan
hisself <{): ~ ( >

Other thinkers believe kats can't be trained, they
have no RESPECT on accHOWENT of they don't come and
fawn all over their MASTERS with "adoration", which
in fact, is subordination, as dogslicking does not
connote LOVE, it's SUBMISSION, and all that tail
waggin is ANXXXIHOWESNESS, not EXTACY <{): ~ ) >

>  Which species of cats you are reffering to?

A kat is a kat like a dog is a dog as a child
is a child as a SP-HOWES is a SP-HOWES. ALL
critters ONLY RESPOND in PREDICTABLE NORMAL
NATURAL INNATE INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE WAYS to
situations and circumstances of their environment
which we creat for them.

Here, I'll SHOWE YOU HOWE COME:

            ALL Temperament and Behavior Problems
                     And 90% Of DIS-EASE
                 Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
                       THAT'S GOOD!
                THAT MEANS We can CURE ALL
              Temperament And Behavior Problems
                     And 90% Of DIS-EASE
                      NEARLY INSTANTLY
        Simply By DOING EXXXACTLY, PRECISELY, OPPOSITE
                  Of HOWE We've Been TAUGHT
             By UNIVERSITY TRAINED Behaviorists

HOWEDY People!

ALL Temperament and Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition."  Ivan P. Pavlov

THAT'S GOOD!

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

THAT MEANS we can CURE ALL Temperament And Behavior
Problems NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOING EXXXACTLY,
PRECISELY, OPPOSITE of HOWE we've been TAUGHT TO
MISHANDLE and ABUSE HOWER dogs by the UNIVERSITY
TRAINED behaviorists and PROFESSIONAL PET CARE
SPECIALISTS who MAKE THEIR LIVING off of PERPETUATING
their SHEER IDIOCY and IGNOING the works of Drs. Sam
Corson, Dra. Mary Cover Jones, Breland & Breland, and
other notable psychologists IGNORED and OVERLOOKED by
the ABUSERS who TEACH US to lock HOWER dogs in boxes,
bribe, choke, intimidate, and IGNORE HOWER dog's,
children's and SP-HOWESES cries of FEAR and NEED and
WITHHOLD attention, affection, so called "rewards"
and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TRUST and RESPECT.

Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last
Student Demonstrated At UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation
Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management
Of Doggys.  <{) ; ~ ) >

       WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BLAME THE DOG OR ITS BREED

                ALL Critters Only Respond In
              PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
                 INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
      To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
                  Which We Create For Them.

               You GET The Critter You TRAINED
        ALL Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
                       A DOG Is A Dog;
                      As A KAT Is A KAT;
                    As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
                    As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
                  As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard has MUCH CASE HISTORY and PEER
REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC DATA to PROVE these "FAR FETCHED"
claims. HOWEver, for today's puporses, this will be all
that's necessary:

Here's your FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?G34D2527A

Just ASK The Amazing Puppy Wizard if you
need any additional FREE heelp. There's NO
arbritrary INFORMATION in your FREE copy
of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual so
study it well and do and follow ALL the
EXXXERCISES AS INSTRUCTED... it's a
PRECISE SCIENCE or it COULDN'T GET 100%
CONSISTENT NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS for all
handlers and all dogs in all fields or
utilities and behaviors all over the Whole
Wild World <{) ; ~ )  >

                ALL Critters Only Respond In
              PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
                 INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
      To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
                  Which We Create For Them.

               You GET The Critter You TRAINED

                       A DOG Is A Dog;
                      As A KAT Is A KAT;
                    As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
                    As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
                  As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES.

            In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
                      FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
                      SAME SAME SAME SAME,
           For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

         Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
              We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
                 And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

        ALL Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING

          Jer 21 And unto this people thou shalt say,
          Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before
          you The Way Of Life, And The Way Of Death.

          2Ki 19:6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus
          shall ye say to your master, Thus saith
          the LORD, Be not afraid of the words which
          thou hast heard, with which the servants of
          the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.

                 The Puppy Prophet <{); ~ ) >

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:41:01 -0500
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
<drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: "time-out"

Dan, my own firm hatred of punishment has
recently been intensified by meeting The
Puppy Wizard, Jerry Howe, whose work with
dogs is marvelous.

There is a literature on harms caused by time
out, and perhaps you'd like to look at
http://www.dogydoright.com
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

"As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care."

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice

Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.

I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.

I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:

whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.

The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).

You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.

As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

> So why is that a problem?

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated."

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
<drv...@mindspring.com>

To: <pdd-aspy...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:31 AM
Subject: How does diagnosis shape treatment?

How does diagnosis shape treatment?

Nearly every week I have a visit from Jerry Howe, who
publicizes himself as The Puppy Wizard. Jerry is a
master at behavioral modification of dogs.

His fundamental bedrock is the work Pavlov's last student,
the late Sam Corson, Ph.D., did at the U of Ohio (at Oxford,O).

Sam always pointed out if the dog stopped working for
you in the lab, Pavlov and he always took the dog away
from the lab, and put him in a loving home and gave him
TLC for a couple of months, and then started, very carefully,
over again.

Jerry believes that reward and constraint focused training
is immoral. I've watched him in one short session calm
impossible dogs, just about to be murdered (oops "put to
sleep") because of their "incorrigibly" violent behavior.

Sam was one of the first people to apply amphetamine to
hyperactivity (he searched the Middle West for hyperactive
dogs); but he never lost sight of the fundamental reality that
a dog is not a human, but does respond, doggily, to dog love.

You might be surprised to go to B. F. Skinner's "Cumulative
Record" and read the essay by Breland and Breland, "The
Misbehavior of Organisms".

Animals cannot be successfully trained unless the trainer
attends to the evolutionary history, the individual's
developmental history, and the environmental niche of
the animal being trained.

Yep, right there in Skinner's last and summary book.
Even with behavior mod, you must know the animal.

<snip>

       Dogs or little boys, you have to know the individual
       history, and the nature of he disorder.

       Dr. Von

       PS if you are interested in dogs, then take
       a look at Jerry's work.

         Dr. George VonHilsheimer writes in

         "Is there a SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR?":

"Valette 1966 is a complete trivialization of
scientific findings. It overstates the case for
reinforcement theory. No careful researcher
would contend that operant techniques CAN ANY
THING MORE than modify SHORT TERM BEHAVIOR in
a highly controlled and limited environment
with a large number of skillful experimenters.

Certainly the most elaborate studies have shown
that the withdrawal or temprary inefficiency of
the reward system is immediately followed by
CESSATION of the programmed behavior.

In fortunate contrast to this depressing paper
is the research reported by Whelan (1966) who
makes the simple but profHOWEND caveat that
"It is only through CORRECT, EFFICIENT APPLICATION
(of operant principles) that children's behavor can
be changed to the extent that they can subsequently
contribute to the REAL WORLD in which they live." "

  "The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
                   Never Change,
   Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain
     Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
           For All Handler's And All Dogs,
           ALL OVER THE WHOLE WILD WORLD,
                NEARLY INSTANTLY,
  As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's
   FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual,"
            The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )  >

Dr. Von continues:

"Whelan illustrates the simple nature or the
learning process by referring to Ferster's
engaging study of two three year old
chimpanzees taught mathematics through
simple procedures. Whelan carries this
EVIDENCE a step futher by pointing HOWET
it's applicability to disturbed children."

      You Get The Critter You Trained

              A Dog Is A Dog
            As A Kat Is A Kat
          As A Birdie Is A Birdie
           As A Child Is A Child
        As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES.

       ALL Critters Only Respond In
  PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL INSTINCTIVE
              REFLEXIVE Ways
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
         Which We Create For Them.

        Damn The Descartean War of
          "Nature Vs Nurture."
    We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
       And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

  In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
          FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
              SAME SAME,
 For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

Dr. Von continues:

"If chimpanzees CAN LEARN mathematics through step
by step learning AT THEIR OWN PACE, reinforced
primarily by CORRECT ANSWERS rather than with
"fruit loops and rasins", we can assume that even
developmentally RETARDED or CONfHOWENDED children
CAN LEARN as well.

Moreover, Whelan makes the EXXXTREMELY important
point that while most teachers assume that learning
takes place verbally, primarily it is a non verbal
process..

Unfortunately Whelan limits himself to the problem
that "teachers must not only modify or remove specific
deviant behaviors, but must also develop socially
acceptable behavior patterns in the classroom and
classroom conditioned goals, NOT LEARNING.

Other researchers have emphasized the importance
of adult behaviors in conditioning classroom behavior.
An EXXXCELLENT review of this research showd that
tantrum behavior, excessive crawling and dependency,
isolated play, passivity, spelling failure, and other
problem behaviors can be managed by altering habitual
adult responses to children (Harris, Wolf and Baer, 1964) .

Such RESEARCH holds GREATER PROMISE in that alteration
of the conditioning social environment seems to provide
more STABLE and LASTING CHANGES than "M and M's". Moreover,
a great deal of work has been done developing EFFECTIVE
techniques of behavior modificaton through the conditioning
social environment of peers (Hartup, 1964). These directions
would seem more PRODUCTIVE than a simple minded trainslation
of the Skinner cage to the classroom.

Skinner (1963) pointed HOWET that operant techniques
can "be utilized fully ONLY IF we REDEFINE the GOALS
of education and the CONDITIONS in the educational
environment under which those goals may be reached...
(through) a DIFFERENT KIND of educational research
which is much more closely concerned with the immediate
dimensions of the student's behavior than with gross
changes such as IMPROVED PERFORMANCES."

UNFORTUNATELY, neither Skinner nor ANY OTHER
learning theorist has provided us with a working
model of a school or research enterprise based
on systemic and thorough-going APPLICATION of
LEARNING PRINCIPLES.

Skinner (1948, 1953) approaches a definition of the
philosophical issues involved, and provides an utopian
model of a school, but generally psychologists seem
STUCK at a level of MANAGEMENT of an aggressively
disturbing child in the classroom, through peer approval,
or the aplication of accelerating CONsequences in the
classroom, or scientifically S-HOWENDING tactics like
"TIME HOWET" (which we used to know more simply
as "sendin the kid to the cloakroom").

Hobbs (op. cit.) claims that the classroom is a
natural environement for the child. Thelen (1965)
contends that "classroom practices are UNnatural,
UNreasonable, and 'against NATURE.' "This would
seem the central issue for the philosophy of education.
Mere trivial application of research findings to an
institution essentially unchanged from Sumerian academies
(Kramer, 1962) will NOT create useful teaching for
human beings.

It seems relevant to ask EXXXACTLY WHAT do we
know abHOWT the learning situation in which HOWER
children find themselves, and why, in the light of HOWER
knowledge, do we do any of the things that schools do?"

We know that there is little agreement among adults
as to what it is they are SUPPOSED to be DOING,
what something to do could be that MIGHT be
EFFECTVE, and what it IS that other people who
have authority over children ought to be doing (Mc-
Eachern and Taylor, 1967). Wherefor the child's
CONfusiHOWEN?

It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966).

Probably the most absurd figure in Amaerican mass
media is the TEACHER (Gerbner, 1966). HOWE can
we EXXXPECT children to LEARN responsible P-HOWER
from models of IMPOTENCE? We KNOW that LEARNING
a complex ritualized social role, is facilitated
by observation of an INTELLIGIBLE MODEL much more
effectively than by trial and error with REINFORCEMENT.

Roles which are relatively arbitrary and senseless are
the most difficult to learn (Luchins, 1966). Do we make
ANY EFFORT as teachers to CORRECT the massive impact of
media?

HOWE can the ARBITRARINESS and SENSELESSNESS
of IMPOTENT ADULT MODELS be redeemed by anything
short of RELEVANCE and COMMITMENT?

As an engaging final comment on the PROFESSION
let me mention the little study by Dittman et al (1965)
tha when 15 psychotherapists and 9 professional dancers
evaluated facial and bodily expressons for effect the
dancers were much MOORE accurate. Need we say MOORE
abHOWET the training of therapists?

THE OPERANT FALLACY

Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) ar no more well
established in research than the various dynamic
therapists. Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation
of programmed systems for elarning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST SURELY
DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers.

The 190 studies annotated by Schramm (1964) when
inspected display NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES
in SUCCESS among approaches and modifications.
Programmed instruction is no worse than conventional
instruction, and takes less time, but time reductions in
conventional instruction has frequently been shown
possible without detrimental effects. If you draw your
controls cagily you can always show the superiority of
your PET technique.

Moore and Smit (1964) compared variations on
programmed materials, machines, texts, written
responses, merely reading, free response, multiple
choice, and iving or not giving the students results.
There were NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES despite
Skinner's insistence on the importance of the
CONTINGENCY of REINFORCEMENT. Carpenter
and Greenhill (1963) could find NO DIFFERENCE
in RESULTS even after eliminating the self-pacing
feature by presenting the materials by TV or Video.

Krumboltz and Kiesler (1965) reported that a two month
follow up test showed NO DIFFERENCE between students
given a variety of reinforcement schedules. Mayo and
Longo (1966) report that naval and marine trainees
saved 30% of time in learning electronics fundamentals
through a programed course witrh superior scores on one
measure but not on another, and with no follow-up reported.

The same authors reported a reductionj from 26 HOWERS
to 19 HOWERS in instruction time through the use of
program with NO DIFFERENCE in test scores, except
that as longer blocks of materiallearned through
programmed means were tesed the scores DECREASED.

When the control instruction is manipulated an entirely
DIFFERENT picture emerges Jacobs and Kulkarni (1966)
assignedstudents in three different schools to classes
with standard programmed material giving immediate
knowledge of results to classes without results and to
classes with the order of sections of the program inverted.

In two schools the groups without knowledge of results
and the groups with inverted material SCORED HIGHER.
In one school there was NO DIFFERENCE. So much for
THEORY. Reid and Taylor (1965) presented a linear
program on paper-making to 60 paid undergrads with
a 12 week follow up test. The group which merely
read learned the same material in 154 minutes to
243 minutes for the group given responses- a
REVERSAL of the usual BIASED RESULTS based
on POOR CON-TROLLS. There were no differences
on post tests.

Spagnoli (1965) reports on a study exposing the control
and programed group to the same material in a concentrated
effort over a limited period of time. There were NO
SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES.

Sassenrath and Garverick (1965) gave 4 matched
groups of 120 students four procedures: 1) looking
up the wrong answers, 2) having questions discussed
by the instructors, 3) checking answers from correct
ones on the board, and 4) no feedback. The discussion
method proved best.

Finally, in studying means of training men to perform
a 72 action prcedure on Nike-Hercules equipment,
Cox and Boren (1965) demonstrated that the time
required to learn the procedure to critterion was NO
DIFFERENT when the actions were organized into
seven operant spans and taught in reverse order, in
natural order, or without grouping into operant spans
at all.

IT IS CLEAR that as comparisons became more
sophisticated programed instruction and other
operant teaching techniquesreveal tehemselves
as simply another prestigiHOWES FAD--somewhat
better than conventional instruction in saving time,
but certainly not providing a better or better organized
or more independently useful GRASP of KNOWLEDGE.

The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavoir and learning
immediately deteriorated.

Despite this, and despite the fact that there was no
evidence of cognitive association with the words, the
authors leap to the conclusion that the fact that the
boys improved in the acquisition of Norwegian words
WITHOUT REWARDS while still being given English
words WITH REWARDS suggest hat the children may
be able to acquire new behaviors on their own.

The need for this study escapes one, particularly in
view of the very well established fact that schizophrenics
condition quite readily (Mednick, 1958)

One can see the "SCIENTIFIC" PRECISION by which the
authors drop contingent reinforcements thus PROVING
that the parrot behavior was indeed caused by the
schedule and NOT by some other mystical force.

The use of Norwegian to demonstrate learning that
could not even remotely be related to previous history
is a grotesquery too bizarre to be credited. Who could
possibly doubt that this useless and probably damaging
trained seal routine depended on the psychologist's antics?

What on earth led them to believe that a schizophrenic
needs even more other-focused responsiveness?

Lovaas et al (1965) reported three programs carried
out on five year old autistic twins conditioining them
to "social behavior" and to eliminate pathologial
behaviors such as self-stimulation and tantrums.

Affectionate and other social behaviors toward
adults increaseed after adults had been associated
with shock reduction. The routine for this treatment
brings immediate relief to mind Sawrey and Wesz
(1956) routine for producing ulcers in monkeys.

I suppose it is USELESS to speculate on the source
of SO CALLED THERAPISTS willingness to experiment
on human beings with procedures for which there is
sound experimentally established WARNINGS. If the
"double blind" theory of the origin of schizophrenia
(Bateson, 1956) is at all valid, HOWE DEVASTATING
the experience must ULTIMATELY BE.

Do Lovaas et al REALLY BELIEVE the schizophrenic
has no cognitive processes and DOES NOT KNOW
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SHOCK? Greger
(1965) criticized this study on the basis that
trainsfer CANNOT be generalized.

That issue can be answered by experience, and,
of curse, the "social" behavior of these children
deteriorates as soon as the psychologists LOOSE INTEREST.

The IMPORTANT ISSUE for a SCIENCE OF BEHAVIOR
is why not attempt those things which are KNOWN to
WORK at least in some cases if only for control puporses.

Kanner (1954) reports that 13 classically autistic
children improved enough to go to school without
"anything that is regarded as good psychotherapy or
as psychotherapy at all..."

Autistic children have been known to become
permenantely social by deinstitutionalization,
BY REMOVAL from the parents, BY RADICAL CHANGES
in other environments, and by MASSIVE DOSAGE of
TOUCHING, HOLDING, FONDLING LOVE DESPITE THE
REJECTION OF THE CHILD.

My case, Larry, (vonHilsheimer, 1965b), demonstrates
a recovery by using the mother as an autistic boy's
teacher in an open millieu. It is curiHOWES that the
operant technicians provide as few, and as UNIMAGINITAVE
controls for thier "research" as the Freudians.

REWARD / PUNISHMENT

Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966).

MIMICRY, PLAY, EXPLORATION AND
THE NEED FOR DATA

Complex activities are LEARNED MORE QUICKLY
through OBSERVATION (copying, if you will) than
by trial and error with reinforcemet (Luchins,).
Observers of subjects making a first trial of a multiple
choice bolt head maze made fewer errors than the
practiced subjects in the second run, while subjects
who have been shocked for error on a first trial made
more errors than either (Rosenbaum & Hewitt, 1966).
Students will modify their beliefs more when rewarded
for the way in which they carried out arguing for a
disagreeable position (role reward), than when rewarded
for the content of the argument (Wallace, 1966).

===================

           INTRO TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING MANUAL
           George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D. F.R.S.H.

Several years ago one of my old students telephoned
to me and asked me what I knew about Doggie Do
Right, a device to cause your neighbor's dog to stop
barking.

I had not heard of the device, nor its inventor, Jerry
Howe, but I telephoned, read his website, and told
my graduate that I thought the device was worth a
trial - indeed I shut up the dogs in my neighborhood
by turning on Jerry's supersonic device.

After all we all know that dogs respond to whistles
humans cannot hear, so why not respond to "attaboy"
sounds which humans cannot hear.

My student lived far from my Florida homestead, so
he tried it on the three incredibly savage, hyperactive
and noisy dogs who lived behind a tall fence just 3 feet
back of his bedroom.

Hot rats! The device worked,

Andy got his sleep and I didn't think much of the
matter again.

A few months ago I had new neighbors on each
side of my house, four of them, all with noisy
unshuttupable dogs. Argh!

So I foned Andrew in Virgina, received the intelligence
that his neighbors dogs were still quiet, and then I foned
Jerry Howe, the inventor of Doggie Do Right, who came
to visit me.

Merlin walked into my office.

Jerry is a slender fellow with a belly button lenghth grey
beard tapering down his chest. I liked him immediately,
and I applied his instrument to the neighborhood again
which again became silent.

It occured to me that if this ultrasonic field worked with
dogs that we ought at least to ask the question, what
happens to humans in range of the device???

I asked Jerry to give me a list of customers and began
inquiring among them. One thing became immediately
evident. The Doggie Do Right not only shuts up your
neighbors' dogs, it calms and modifies your husband's behavior.

Holey Moley, Captain Marvel, this device has major potential.

In the meantime Jerry gave me a copy of his Wits End
Dog Training Manual. I was delighted. He also introduced
me to the world of professional dog trainers some of whom
even have Ph.D.s in psychology.

This was not such a delight as it appeared that none
of these luminaries had actually read Skinner, Lazarus
or other fountains of wisdom in psychology. Indeed, it
seemed as though they knew very little about the laws
of behavior at all!

Punishment and confrontation seemed to be their
major stock in trade.

Well, if you go to my website, www.drbiofeedback.com
you can read of the career of Sam Corson, I.P. Pavlov's
last student.

Sam demonstrated that rehabilitation of hyperactive
dogs can easily and readily be done using TLC, tender
loving care is at the root of the scientific management
of doggies.

Pavlov told us so 100 years ago.

So what are these degreed morons doing punishing
dogs, and shouting "NO" into their doggie faces? If
you pick up B.F.Skinner's last book, CUMULATIVE
RECORD, included in it is an essay by Keller Breland
and Maryann Breland entitled THE MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS.

Skinner deliberately included his students' chapter
to emphasize that you cannot manage the behavior
of animals unless you take into consideration 1. the
animal's evolutionary niche (who is the animal?);
2. the animal's personal history (who is the animal?)
and 3, the instinctive repetoire of the animal (who is
the animal?) and 4. the personality of the animal (who
is the animal?).

The Brelands moved far from the white rat. "Thirty-eight
species, totaling over 6,000 individual animals, have been
conditioned, and we have dared to tackle such unlikely
subjects as reindeer, cockatoos, raccoons, porpoises,
and whales."

Jerry Howe spends most of his times with dogs, but
he has learned Pavlov's lesson well. Dogs are individuals,
they are individual DOGS, and they respond most directly
and immediately to love and tender loving care.

Read with pleasure, and then go love your dog.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
Who's Who Honoree since 1983

            From: TooCool (larrym...@hotmail.com)

        The Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method

      I have studied canine behavior and dog training for
      years. I have a huge library that covers every system
      of training.

      The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits' End Training
      Method is by far the most scientific, the most advanced,
      the kindest, the quickest and the most effective training
      method yet discovered.

      It is not an assortment of training tips and tricks; it is
      a logically consistent system. Every behavior problem
      and every obedience skill is treated in the same logically
      consistent manner.

      Please study his manual carefully. Please endeavor to
      understand the basis of his system and please follow
      his directions exactly. His manual is a masterpiece.
      It is dense with theory, with explanation, with detailed
      descriptions about why behavior problems occur and
      how their solution should be approached.

      One should not pick and choose from among his methods
      based upon what you personally like or dislike. His is
      not a bag of tricks but a complete and integrated system
      for not only training a dog but for raising a loving
      companion.

      When I once said to Jerry that his system creates for
      you the dog of your dreams, his response was that it
      produces for your dog the owner of his dreams.

      You see, Jerry has discovered that if you are gentle
      with your dog then he will be gentle with you, if you
      praise your dog every time he looks at you, then you
      will become the center of your dogs world, if you use
      Jerry's sound distraction with praise, then it takes
      just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to train your
      dog to not misbehave (even in your absence) (Just 15
      seconds this morning to train my 10 week old puppy to
      lie quietly and let me clip his nails).

      Using Jerry's scientific method (sound distraction /
      praise / alteration / variation) it takes just minutes to
      train you dog to respond to your commands.

      What a pleasure it was for me to see my 6 week old
      puppy running as fast has his wobbly little legs would
      carry him in response to my recall command-and he
      comes running every time I call no matter where we are
      or what he is doing.

      At ten weeks old now, my puppy never strains upon
      his leash thanks to Jerry's hot & cold exercises and
      his Family Pack Leadership exercises.

     Jerry has discovered that if you scold your dog, if you
     scream at him, if you intimidate him, if you hurt him,
     if you force him then his natural response is to oppose
     you.

     Is Jerry a nut?

    It doesn't make any difference to me whether he is or not.
    It is a logical fallacy to judge a person's ideas based upon
    their personality. As far as dogs are concerned, Jerry
    wears his heart upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply
    when he hears of trainers forcing, intimidating, scolding
    or hurting dogs.

    More than that, he knows  that force is not effective
    and that it will certainly  lead to behavior problems;
    sometime problems so severe  that people put their
    dogs down because of those problems.

   I believe that it is natural for humans to want to control
   their dog by force. Jerry knows this too. We have all been
   at our wits' end, haven't we?

   Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In scientific
   literature it is referred to allelomimetic behavior. Dogs
   respond in like kind to force; they respond in like kind
   to praise.

  Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him what he
  wants most-your kind attention. Give him your praise.
  You will be astonished at how your dog 's anxiety will
  dissipate and how their behavior problems will dissipate
  along with their anxiety.

  Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits' End
  Training Method as a scientific principle just as you
  would the law of gravity and you will have astounding
  success.

  Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity.

  If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get a sweet little
  Magwai; if you don't you will surely get a little gremlin
  (anyone see The Gremlins?). --Larry
       Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning
           CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S
              It's ALL The SAME SAME SAME SAME
                        <{); ~ ) >

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400

   You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.

I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.

This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals.  Yum!

The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD.  They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.

Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.

A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired.  If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.

Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.

The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.

The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.

They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)

Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.

It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.

One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning.  Pfui!

Even Skinner understood this!

And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist
who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX
THERAPY.

Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis.  Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source.  "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition."  Ivan P. Pavlov

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

            All truth passes through three stages.
                  First, it  is ridiculed.
               Second, it is violently opposed.
         Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
                   -Arthur Schopenhauer

            "Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
                even tho it's a hopeless task,
                     in this system of things.
                As long as man is ruling man,
             there will be animals (and humans!)
                  abused and neglected. :-(
                   Your student," Juanita.

        "If you've got them by the balls their hearts
                   and minds will follow,"
                       John Wayne.

          The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
skyeyes - 08 Aug 2005 23:56 GMT
Jabbers wrote:

>True enough, isn't odd that only Hominid could? Tell us all, what
>humans today smear dung on themselves to hunt?

Actually, that was a well-known hunting practice of some Native
Americans back in The Day.  Read your Schoolcraft.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
Hannele Huigens - 09 Aug 2005 22:19 GMT
Op Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:56:02 +0200 schreef skyeyes <skyeyes@dakotacom.net>:

> Jabbers wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
> EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

I remember it from a book I read about Davey Crockett, when I was young.  
Don't know how true it was, can't even remember the title or writer, but I  
enjoyed reading it and that little factoid always stayed with me.

Signature

Hannele Huigens
aa #2221

Cracklin' - 08 Aug 2005 15:43 GMT
> >Other predators don not follow this trend.
>
> Other predators never invented firearms, automobiles or GPS devices
> either. Humans - and their ancestors - have a way of solving problems
> by thinking outside the box.
==========================
Wolves, jackals and dogs roll in decomposing animals to hide their scent.
Signature

CR in Watchtowerland....
"Beware of  'organization.' It is wholly un-necessary. The
Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind
other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours.
Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word
today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge
day by day."  -  Zion's Watch Tower, 1895,  p. 216
~~<~~{@
The WTS treat the sheep like mushrooms....keep them in the dark and feed
them
bullsh!t..... (Cedit to Dizz)

Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 23:11 GMT
> > >Other predators don not follow this trend.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ==========================
> Wolves, jackals and dogs roll in decomposing animals to hide their scent.

Once again we see How Carol parrots information that she knows nothing
about.

Here are some real facts:

Megan Parker, research biologist at the Wolf Education and Research
Center in Seattle, says that, yes, wolves-the ancestors of
dogs-regularly roll in carrion. But she's not so sure the reason is to
disguise their scent. Both wolves and dogs have plentiful scent glands,
she told us, so disguise is probably imperfect at best.

"It could be they roll in carrion to take the scent back to the pack,
telling them they've found something interesting." Kind of like a
restaurant review.
"It could also be that they're marking the carrion with their scent, to
tell anyone else who comes along 'this is mine.'"

Of course, there's always the possibility that some dogs may simply
enjoy rolling around in carrion, the way we enjoy a scented bubble
bath.

http://www.petsmart.com/cat/answers/behavior/articles/article_3187.shtml

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An unusual behavior, scent-rolling, involves a wolf who finds something
strong-smelling (often manure or a carcass) getting down and rolling in
it, coating themselves. Some dogs also scent-roll. No-one is sure why
wolves scent-roll, but it may be that they are bringing the smell back
to the rest of their pack, which might then follow the wolf's scent
trail back to the thing that smelled interesting.

http://www.wolfpark.org/wolffaq.html
Cracklin' - 08 Aug 2005 15:41 GMT
> [posted and mailed]

>> The title: Ape to Man, Per evolution science. Man is an Ape. So I would
>> deem the title as Misleading at best.
>
> Man IS an ape!! What makes you think he isn't????

## The Jehovah's Witness literature he's required to read.  They're taught
that man is a "special" creation and not an animal of any kind.

>> Neamderthal: I believe this creature existed, But where did they get
>> the idea that thes guys rub deer dung on themselves to hunt deer.

> Well, grasshopper, what better way to mask their odour, than with the
> odour
> of deer? Surely you can see the logic here....
Signature

CR.........
The JWs keep saying it (Armageddon) is imminent, just a matter of time,
only a matter of weeks or months from the predicted date:  1874(+40),
1878(+40), 1910,
1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1922, 1925, 1940, 1945, 1975, 1999/2000...
LATEST DATE: 2034  Come get your predictions and palm read by the GB!
Just one WRONG date after another - they're truly inspired by *GASP* demons!
"If he is a false prophet (like the GB), his prophecy will fail to come to
pass."
(Watchtower, 5/15/30).
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 20:14 GMT
> > Man IS an ape!! What makes you think he isn't????
>
> ## The Jehovah's Witness literature he's required to read.  They're taught
> that man is a "special" creation and not an animal of any kind.

Again you are off topic. Your hatred of JW's is well known, and you
have been outed on AFN and Rec.ponds

The subject at hand is a cable tv show indicated in the header, which
made the distinction. Not watchtower material. Since you know nothing
of the subject of hand refrain from further participation in this
thread. The more you write, the more the fool you look among others.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 15:04 GMT
>a religious events for
>evolutionist no doubt.

To many evolutionists, Sunday mass is a religious event. Then again,
you probably think all evolutionists are atheists, right?

>well many of you will say that I am
>wrong regardless

When we see a post from you, we just plan ahead.

>Man is an Ape. So I would
>deem the title as Misleading at best.

Not if you...oh, I don't know...read. Man is a member of the ape
family. At some point in history, men and modern primates branched off
from a common ape.

>But where did they get
>the idea that thes guys rub deer dung on >themselves to hunt deer.

I'm not sure about this particular example, but such techniques aren't
uncommon. Some native american tribes applied buffalo urine to
themselves when hunting the beasts, so that their scent wouldn't scare
them off.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 15:26 GMT
> >a religious events for
> >evolutionist no doubt.
>
> To many evolutionists, Sunday mass is a religious event. Then again,
> you probably think all evolutionists are atheists, right?

Well, It seems that way, any true Christian who believes in evolution
call Jesus a liar, which includes the catholic church.

Any Jew who belives in evolution, call Moses a liars since he wrote
Genesis.

> >well many of you will say that I am
> >wrong regardless
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> family. At some point in history, men and modern primates branched off
> from a common ape.

So Ape becomes man, who is still an Ape? misleading the audience at it
best. Man is still a common ape. Why insist on seperating the two?
to gain followers. I thought science was based on facts, not
propaganda.

> >But where did they get
> >the idea that thes guys rub deer dung on >themselves to hunt deer.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> themselves when hunting the beasts, so that their scent wouldn't scare
> them off.

Native americans do may strange things. But where did they pick this
hunting trait. And would they do the same with deer, cattle, and fish?
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 16:12 GMT
>Any Jew who belives in evolution, call Moses a >liars since he wrote
>Genesis

Which version? Genesis is a mashed up combination of two creation myths
- I'm wondering which one is the right one, according to you.

>any true Christian who believes in evolution
>call Jesus a liar

Funny...I would call them the ambassadors of common sense. Then again,
belief in Jesus usually doesn't go hand in hand with good sense of any
kind.

>So Ape becomes man, who is still an Ape?

Well...apes are still apes. I'm failing to see what you're trying to
get at.

>Man is still a common ape. Why insist on >seperating the two?

Because they're separate. Humans have done more than enough in the past
15,000 - 20,000 years to defferentiate themselves from the rest of the
ape family, don't you think?

>Native americans do may strange things.

Yeah...all of that crazy stuff like respecting the land and the
environment.

>But where did they pick this
>hunting trait.

This is more a behavioural anthropologist's line of study. Like most
situations, hunting methods were consistently failing, and the hunters
had to adapt.

>And would they do the same with deer, cattle, >and fish?

If the situation called for it, why not? They observed that, when
hunting, a wind would tip their prey off to their presence regardless
of how well they were hidden. Thus, they hide their scent. Fish swim in
a lake or river, and don't respond to wind at all - thus, no need to
hide a scent. It's really all logic.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 20:21 GMT
> >Any Jew who belives in evolution, call Moses a >liars since he wrote
> >Genesis
>
> Which version? Genesis is a mashed up combination of two creation myths
> - I'm wondering which one is the right one, according to you.

does it matter, either they belive in it or not.

> >any true Christian who believes in evolution
> >call Jesus a liar
>
> Funny...I would call them the ambassadors of common sense. Then again,
> belief in Jesus usually doesn't go hand in hand with good sense of any
> kind.

irrevellant.

> >So Ape becomes man, who is still an Ape?
>
> Well...apes are still apes. I'm failing to see what you're trying to
> get at.

read the original post.

> >Man is still a common ape. Why insist on >seperating the two?
>
> Because they're separate. Humans have done more than enough in the past
> 15,000 - 20,000 years to defferentiate themselves from the rest of the
> ape family, don't you think?

Then you know nothing of evolution. Science declae man as part of the
great Ape family. Man is an Ape.

> >Native americans do may strange things.
>
> Yeah...all of that crazy stuff like respecting the land and the
> environment.

Our lost.

> >But where did they pick this
> >hunting trait.
>
> This is more a behavioural anthropologist's line of study. Like most
> situations, hunting methods were consistently failing, and the hunters
> had to adapt.

How? (pardon the pun)

> >And would they do the same with deer, cattle, >and fish?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a lake or river, and don't respond to wind at all - thus, no need to
> hide a scent. It's really all logic.

speculation. Did they just sat down and say: "If we cover ourself with
crap, we can hunt better"
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 20:32 GMT
>does it matter, either they belive in it or not.

It DOES matter. If you're using a creation myth as evidence for a
scientific explanation of why we are here, the source better be
credible.

>irrevellant.

Actually, it's very relevant; fundamentalist believers in Jesus Christ
tend to be...idiots.

>Science declae man as part of the
>great Ape family. Man is an Ape.

Those two points have nothing to do with one another. Yes, homo sapiens
are part of the great ape family; that does not make homo sapiens
"apes".

>> Yeah...all of that crazy stuff like respecting the >> land and the environment.
>Our lost.

Yes, it is.

>speculation. Did they just sat down and say: "If >we cover ourself with crap, we can hunt better"

As I said, I'm interested to read more about this. The most likely
explanation would be a mixture of observation/common sense. We've
observed other animals doing the same thing.
Cracklin' - 08 Aug 2005 22:50 GMT
> >Any Jew who belives in evolution, call Moses a >liars since he wrote
>>Genesis
>
> Which version? Genesis is a mashed up combination of two creation myths
> - I'm wondering which one is the right one, according to you.

## And BOTH versions were based on the Epic of Gilgamish.  :-)

>>any true Christian who believes in evolution
>>call Jesus a liar
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> a lake or river, and don't respond to wind at all - thus, no need to
> hide a scent. It's really all logic.

## Since when are CREATIONISTS logical?  ;-)
Signature

CR....
"I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods,
then you
will know why I dismiss yours."     -=  Stephen F. Roberts  =-
~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*

Katt - 08 Aug 2005 15:32 GMT
"Sasha" <scironi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123509869.124575.230650@g44g2000cwa.

> I'm not sure about this particular example, but such techniques aren't
> uncommon. Some native american tribes applied buffalo urine to
> themselves when hunting the beasts, so that their scent wouldn't scare
> them off.

Does this perhaps also explain why so many Catholic priests rub themselves
against young boys...?

Katt.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 15:46 GMT
> Does this perhaps also explain why so many Catholic priests rub themselves
> against young boys...?
>
> Katt.

Uncalled for remark, and completly off topic. No need to offend
Catholics who support evolution, and thus calling Jesus a liar. Don't
do it again or your name will passed to the Talk.origin content
moderation board and you may be banned and censored, without being
banned and censored. Logic still defies the latter staement.
Cracklin' - 08 Aug 2005 15:47 GMT
> >a religious events for
>>evolutionist no doubt.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> themselves when hunting the beasts, so that their scent wouldn't scare
> them off.
================================'
I also learned when camping on an Indian Reservation that they rubbed wild
onions (and other strong smelling plants) on themselves to mask their scent.
The Indian tour guide was very informative.....
Signature

CR.........
Wise men stare at the unknown, and boldly asks, WHY?
Others... fall on their hands and knees, and start mumbling...
(God did it! God did it!)
            ~  Thus Spake God's Creator ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~><> ><>

Zod - 08 Aug 2005 16:06 GMT
Here we see Carol violating her parole. She just can't keep herself off
a jabriol thread. But then again she is owned by Jabriol. Jabriol
personal marionette.
In any case we are talking about dung bathing. Your comments are as
always off topic. Now remove yourself from this thread, and return back
to your "all JW's are pedophiles" with help of Fred/Gary pedophile
numero uno.

> ================================'
> I also learned when camping on an Indian Reservation that they rubbed wild
> onions (and other strong smelling plants) on themselves to mask their scent.
> The Indian tour guide was very informative.....
Matt Silberstein - 08 Aug 2005 15:08 GMT
>I am sure many of you seen the show; a religious events for
>evolutionist no doubt.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Neamderthal: I believe this creature existed, But where did they get
>the idea that thes guys rub deer dung on themselves to hunt deer.

Jabs, it is a TV show. They wrote it to get ratings and sponsors.
Given that it is on one of the "intellectual" channels getting the
facts right is a bit more important than on one of the other networks,
but it accuracy is not the prime goal.

That said, I think that hunters in various parts of the world do rub
themselves with dung to mask their smell. Meat eaters smell like meat
eaters and scare the prey. It would be a reasonable speculation that
Neanderthal did it as well.

Signature

Matt Silberstein

Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.

Cliff on Cheers

Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 15:34 GMT
> Jabs, it is a TV show. They wrote it to get ratings and sponsors.
> Given that it is on one of the "intellectual" channels getting the
> facts right is a bit more important than on one of the other networks,
> but it accuracy is not the prime goal.

Matt, are you allowed to participate in a Jab thread? Sould that not
get you banned from Talk.origins or did you get tired of the same ole
circular arguments occuring there?
In Any case, yes it is a TV show. But how many people will call it out
as as pseudo-scientific hubla?  Not many.
The show was full of errors from a scientific viewpoint.

> That said, I think that hunters in various parts of the world do rub
> themselves with dung to mask their smell. Meat eaters smell like meat
> eaters and scare the prey. It would be a reasonable speculation that
> Neanderthal did it as well.

So said shasa. very interesting speculation. When would the
Neanderthal figure this out? And what evidence exsist that they infact
did this. The show would have more credibility if they said that the
behaviour of the Nean, was speculated base on other primitive hunter
society.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 16:16 GMT
>When would the
>Neanderthal figure this out?

As I said in another reply, they most likely put 2 and 2 together when
they had to. Perhaps they observed wolves or wild dogs doing it and
mimicked them?

>The show would have more credibility if they said >that the behaviour of the Nean, was speculated >base on other primitive hunter society.

As much as I hate to admit it, you have a point. I'd like to know what
evidence they base the assertion on, if only for my own curiosity.
Zod - 08 Aug 2005 16:33 GMT
> >When would the
> >Neanderthal figure this out?
>
> As I said in another reply, they most likely put 2 and 2 together when
> they had to. Perhaps they observed wolves or wild dogs doing it and
> mimicked them?

Oh. ok. any evidence that the wild dogs of Africa lived in germany and
Israel at the time.
And do wolves rub themselves in animal dung. I know my dog like to
rubherselves on dead animals.

> >The show would have more credibility if they said >that the behaviour of the Nean, was speculated >base on other primitive hunter society.
>
> As much as I hate to admit it, you have a point. I'd like to know what
> evidence they base the assertion on, if only for my own curiosity.

I guess us laymen will never know. But this is stuff the general public
see and quote as if it was pure fact. The same misinformation exist in
public school liberary.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 16:46 GMT
>Oh. ok. any evidence that the wild dogs of Africa >lived in germany and Israel at the time.

Wild dogs STILL exist in Germany. Before I get into detail about that,
what do Germany and Israel have to do with this at all?

>And do wolves rub themselves in animal dung.

Yes they do.
Javriol - 08 Aug 2005 20:48 GMT
> >Oh. ok. any evidence that the wild dogs of Africa >lived in germany and Israel at the time.
>
> Wild dogs STILL exist in Germany.

really? I thought they were unique to africa.

> Before I get into detail about that,
> what do Germany and Israel have to do with this at all?

Do you know your Neanderthal history?

> >And do wolves rub themselves in animal dung.
>
> Yes they do.

I have to look that up. I know a lot about wolves. I guess I am some
what lacking.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 22:04 GMT
>> Wild dogs STILL exist in Germany.
>really? I thought they were unique to africa.

Every region has their version of wild dogs - the packs of beasties
roaming the Australian outback differ little in their principal
social/hunting structures from the wolves of Europe/North America.

>Do you know your Neanderthal history?

Evidently, moreso than you.
Sasha - 08 Aug 2005 22:04 GMT
>> Wild dogs STILL exist in Germany.
>really? I thought they were unique to africa.

Every region has their version of wild dogs - the packs of beasties
roaming the Australian outback differ little in their principal
social/hunting structures from the wolves of Europe/North America.

>Do you know your Neanderthal history?

Evidently, moreso than you.
Zod - 08 Aug 2005 23:15 GMT
> >> Wild dogs STILL exist in Germany.
> >really? I thought they were unique to africa.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Evidently, moreso than you.

Evidently you do no. The name of the wild dogs of germany is?
The relationship between the Neanderthal in Germany and Israel is?