Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Biology
BiologyBotanyMicrobiologyEntomologyEvolutionPaleontology
Chemistry
General ChemistryAnalytical ChemistryElectrochemistryOrganic Synthesis
Earth Science
GeologyMineralogyOceanographyMeteorologyEarthquakes
Physics
General PhysicsResearchRelativityParticle PhysicsElectromagnetismFusionOpticsAcousticsNew Theories

Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / November 2005



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Dinosaur killer claws or climbing crampons?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Dawid Mazurek - 14 Oct 2005 16:43 GMT
I've just read an artciles by Manning et al. from the Biology Letters and I
want to get an opinion from those who read it also. I'm not familiar with
the authors, but I suppose they are not well know in the field of
dromeosaurid paleontology. This fact together with that they claim the
mainstream hypothesis to be wrong, could attest they are wrong. However as I
read the article, everything seemed quite logic and the experiments
methodologically just fine. The theory that raptors could climb on the
living prey isn't any new, but the hypothesis that the claws couldn't kill
surelly is. May the authors be right?
Sorry for my English.
Cheers, David
John Harshman - 14 Oct 2005 20:38 GMT
> I've just read an artciles by Manning et al. from the Biology Letters and I
> want to get an opinion from those who read it also. I'm not familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Sorry for my English.
> Cheers, David

Perhaps you could supply a full citation so we could all know what you
are talking about.
Dawid Mazurek - 14 Oct 2005 22:08 GMT
Oh yes - sorry for that. Here's the citation:

Manning, P. L., Payne, D., Pennicott, J., Barrett, P. M. & Ennos R. A. 2005.
Dinosaur killer claws or climbing crampons? Biology Letters. FirstCite Early
Online Publishing. 3 pp. DOI: 10.1098/rsbl.2005.0395
http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/openurl.asp?genre=article&id=doi:10.1098/rsbl
.2005.0395

John Harshman - 14 Oct 2005 22:17 GMT
> Oh yes - sorry for that. Here's the citation:
>
> Manning, P. L., Payne, D., Pennicott, J., Barrett, P. M. & Ennos R. A. 2005.
> Dinosaur killer claws or climbing crampons? Biology Letters. FirstCite Early
> Online Publishing. 3 pp. DOI: 10.1098/rsbl.2005.0395
> http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/openurl.asp?genre=article&id=doi:10.1098/rsbl
.2005.0395
 

Unfortunately, without a subscription all you can see is the abstract.
John Harshman - 15 Oct 2005 15:42 GMT
> I've just read an artciles by Manning et al. from the Biology Letters and I
> want to get an opinion from those who read it also. I'm not familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Sorry for my English.
> Cheers, David

Thanks for the pdf. It sounds fairly convincing to me. Two questions:
1. Did they compare the claw to those of raptorial birds? All I see
mentioned are tree-climbers.

2. And why not consider tree-climbing itself as a use for the great
claw, rather than prey-climbing? It seems clear that at least a few
dromaeosaurs were arborial. How about a tree-nesting Deinonychus?
John Scanlon - 17 Oct 2005 04:11 GMT
[snip]
... It sounds fairly convincing to me. Two questions:
> 1. Did they compare the claw to those of raptorial birds? All I see
> mentioned are tree-climbers.
>
> 2. And why not consider tree-climbing itself as a use for the great
> claw, rather than prey-climbing? It seems clear that at least a few
> dromaeosaurs were arborial. How about a tree-nesting Deinonychus?

A few observations:
The idea of dromaeosaurs climbing the bodies of their prey has
certainly been suggested before, possibly first by Ostrom but then in,
for example, Bob Bakker's 'Raptor Red'.

I've never been convinced that 'disembowelling' was a plausible
function for such a strongly curved claw on a very flexible digit.  The
ostrich and cassowary are widely reputed to be able to disembowel
humans, dogs, lions etc. with a front kick, and though I do not have
details of any documented cases this seems worth investigating (just
annoy your local ratite with a pig carcass on a stick?). Ratite claws
are not especially sharp-tipped, thick and strong but relatively weakly
curved; but the middle claw in cassowaries is quite variable in length
(fairly ordinary and emu-like in the Australian species, much longer in
some New Guinea animals) suggesting it may be evolving specialised
functions within the extant genus.  Has Feduccia written any reviews on
claw geometry and disembowelment in non-dinosaurian birds?

As Manning et al conclude, a strongly curved claw claw with an
elliptical cross-section is not an effective cutting tool; and there
seems to be no evidence from ungual morphology to override the
inference from the EPB (extant phylogenetic bracket, i.e. parsimonious
character reconstruction based on living animals). To reconstruct the
claw with a ventral cutting ridge would thus be an extrapolation that
would have to based on either extant analogues (of which there are
apparently none) or a biomechanical argument for the claw being
modified in other ways for disembowelling (probably ruled out by the
strong curvature).

Tree-climbing, why not?  Likely to be more important than prey-climbing
most of the time, I would think, since most maniraptors were relatively
small and likely to be generalist insectivore-carnivores like varanid
lizards. If the claw morphology evolved in association with arboreal
foraging (for insects or small vertebrates), nocturnal perching, or
juvenile escape behaviour in small generalists, its use in predation
would be an 'exaptation' that might have been critical in allowing
specialisation on large prey (which may or may not have actually
occurred).

There may now be enough different species of maniraptorans known from
foot bones to map out some morphological trajectories and compare with
limb proportions and dentition, to see if mega-carnivory or potential
arborealism is the better explanation for the origin of the big claw.
Thesis topic for someone?
deowll - 13 Nov 2005 03:00 GMT
> [snip]
> ... It sounds fairly convincing to me. Two questions:
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> arborealism is the better explanation for the origin of the big claw.
> Thesis topic for someone?

One of the first finds had a protoceratopsan and one of these animals locked
together. The claw was lodged under the frill in a location likely to kill.
A fore limb was in the plant eaters mouth. Things must have been getting
interesting before the sand dune buried them.

My point is not everything these animals attacked was the size of a house
and the claw was big enough to kill. I saw a picture of their remains
recently most likely in SA or Natural History but I'm not sure of more.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.