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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / March 2006A question
I am a freshman in highschool, and I have many interests and questions in science that far exceed what I can expect to learn in my biology class. Keep in mind that all these questions listed below I have asked my teachers and looked in my text books, and have still found no answer. Pull out your periodic tables for this one. The first thing I wanted to know is what makes selenium (34) a solid, bromine (35) a liquid and krypton (36) a gas? My teacher was able to tell me that the noble gasses (which includes Krytpon) where gases because their outer rings were filled up with 8 electrons (or something like that). I know it must be a energy thing, but no one has been able to tell my why or how it works. Does anyone here know, or is there a site or book one of you would recommend? Another question I have is more in the biology ball park. I want to know more about the origins of life, specifically how the first cell was able to form. I am sure there is a logical answer for how life began, but from what I have learned about the cell it seems extremely unlikely that even the most archaic bacteria could have formed on accident (not advocating god here, just trying to figure some stuff out is all). Again, does anybody know alot about this subject, or could recommend a book or website for me? My last question has to do with evolution. From what I have learned in school, evolution is caused by mutation, which is a mistake in the DNA code during reproduction. I have been told that major mutations (like the ones that are catylast for evolution) are rare, and that like 99.9% of mutations have a negative effect on the organism. I am not sure if this is a factor, but there is a chance that a postive mutation can be lost if an oragnism dies before spreading its seed or if the gene is recessive and doesn't get passed down. So how were single cell bachteria able to evolve (even over 2 or 3 billion years) into the incrediable biological marvles that we see today? The way cells have adapted within a body, the complex functions they form, and the near flawless precision they have in preforming their jobs surely requires many mutations in order to be achieved. I am not sure how many mutations it takes in order to develop the human heart, but it must be a vast number (and in the same place too!). And finally, how can there be so much diverstiy in life and their functions if all evolution is a extremely rare mistake? It doesn't seem possible that it would happen the way Darwin described, even if evolution had billions of years to take its course. Am I not taking into account how long a billion years is, or is there something about evolution I don't know that would clear some things up? Please explain how this works (or recommend a book or website for me). I know I may sound ingorant in my questions (and accusations), but keep in mind I have a 9th grade education. I really want to know the answers to these questions, and would appreciate any help I can get. I am unike many teenagers in that I respect the age ( and the knowledge it brings) of adults and will listen, even if it means that I didn't actually find a flaw int the theory of evolution (that was sarcasm!). Hopefully I am not the only one to have asked the questions. Thanks from hearing me out, and I appreciate any help. Reply soon! > I am a freshman in highschool, and I have many interests and questions > in science that far exceed what I can expect to learn in my biology [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it works. Does anyone here know, or is there a site or book one of you > would recommend? This is a basic question about "states" of matter. You should get the details in chemistry class. Basically temperature, pressure and each molecules specific properties determine whether a concentration of that molecule will be a solid, liquid, gas or one of the more esoteric states. Google for "states of matter" for more info. > Another question I have is more in the biology ball park. I want to > know more about the origins of life, specifically how the first cell [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is all). Again, does anybody know alot about this subject, or could > recommend a book or website for me? Even the most primitive organisms alive today are the products of several billion years of evolution and are so almost certainly significantly more complex than the first organisms. Abiogenisis, the study of the origin of life, does not yet have a consensus theory about how life began. Google for "RNA world" to get more info. > My last question has to do with evolution. From what I have learned in > school, evolution is caused by mutation, which is a mistake in the DNA [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > some things up? Please explain how this works (or recommend a book or > website for me). First off most mutations are neutral in the organisms present environment. Of those that aren't the vast majority are negative in some way. However a very small number directly benefit the reproductive success of the organisms and in this way tend to cause these mutations to spread through out the organism's population. Also since the environment is in a state of fairly constant change an organism may find itself in a changed environment from its ancestors and now a trait that was previously neutral or even harmful is beneficial and will be selected for. The evolution of the diversity of life is a very difficult concept to come to grips with. Once you achieve an understanding of the power of mutation driven natural selection to filter for those organisms better suited to their environment and a grasp of the number of generations of all the oragnisms that have lived, mutated and reproduced since the beginning of life it will become clearer to you. > I know I may sound ingorant in my questions (and accusations), but keep > in mind I have a 9th grade education. I really want to know the answers [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not the only one to have asked the questions. Thanks from hearing me > out, and I appreciate any help. Reply soon! Always ask questions otherwise you really are ignorant. Ken Ok, here is some information I would like to reccomend: First of all, I would like to say that I think that all information should be analyzed. This means both for and against evolutionary theories. To find information online, you can google pretty much anything you need to know and find information. For up-to-date information go to google news and/or look up scientific journals. Many science journals post their publishings on their websites. If you want to check out a website that challenges evolutionary theory, I would reccomend www.icr.org Note: I believe those who are ignorant are those who are not willing to analyze every argument and piece of information that comes out. > Ok, here is some information I would like to reccomend: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you want to check out a website that challenges evolutionary theory, > I would reccomend www.icr.org So the creationist finally shows himself. To the original poster, creationism has no scientific evidence supporting its claims. If anyone reads something on a creationist site that seems convincing please go to www.talkorigins.org where these claims will have been examined and the underlying misrepresentations and outright lies will have been pointed out. Specifically here are two spots to look: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/project.html will be useful when the creationist quote a real scientist seemingly saying something is seriously wrong with evolutionary theory. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/ Is a good starting point to establishing the incorrectness of all the common and less than common creationist claims. Ken > Ok, here is some information I would like to reccomend: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Note: I believe those who are ignorant are those who are not willing to > analyze every argument and piece of information that comes out. Umm, that would be those at the icr.org site. If you are going to claim a balanced view, why not post a link both for and against? Since you've already posted the link above, I'll counter with this one: http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060314_evo_repeats.html George > > Ok, here is some information I would like to reccomend: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > George Wow, I didn't mean to spark a debate here! I really am nonpartisan on the whole god issue (sitting comfortably and safely as an agnostic) and only challenged science's answers on evolution and life because it didn't make sense with what little knowledge I had on the subjects. What Ken said (it was Ken right?) about how neutral and even harmful mutations can become advantages to the species as the environment around them changes makes a lot of sense, and adds weight to the evolution theory. If I can touch up on that topic again one more time, I would like to know (and I will check the references mentioned) how often mutations actually occur, and how many mutations it takes to develop some of the more complicated organs like the eyes, heart, and brian which would have only been usefull to the organism if it happened all at once (or the parts that developed would have remainded useless for how ever many hundreds/thousands of years). The other thing that seems funny to me, is about 65 million years ago (when the dinosaurs disapeared ) something like 2/3rds of species became extinct. If that is true, has has nature been able to kick out so much in only that small amount of time during an ice age! I look on the websites listed above, but tell me if you have an answer (it will save me a little bit of time). To be entirely honest, I am more interested in how life started and even more curious about how atoms change when bonding with one another (oxygen and hydrogen make water, a liquid, but both are gasses?), and how the energy within atoms change as the temperature rises and falls. I already understand that cold temperatures are caused by a lack of energy in the area (more or less), and this causes atoms to move less quickly and close in around eachother. In solids atoms move very little, while in a liquid state atoms can move smoothly passed and around eachother, and in a gasses state the atoms are like bouncy balls going all over the place. What I want to know is what causes the atoms to behave this way, and how energy plays a factor? Again I'll check the sites, but I will take any information I can get here. Thanks for helping me out! MoonRock >> > Ok, here is some information I would like to reccomend: >> > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > MoonRock No, offense, but the statement "only challenged science's answers on evolution and life because it didn't make sense with what little knowledge I had on the subjects" explains a lot. With such little knowledge, why would it make sense to you? You wouldn't expect your significant other to conduct brain surgery on you with similarly limited knowledge, would you? I suggest you read a little more. It is a very interesting subject. There are answers to most of the questions you ask. I don't have time to address them, but you can do a search on google, and find what you are looking for. I will address one thing. As for the 2/3 of all life that went extinct 65 million years ago, contrary to what many may believe, exactly what happened then is not a settled issue. There are serious problems with the impact theory as well as the other theories (such as the flood basalt eruption disaster idea). Yes, a lot of species died, but a lot of others survived. I don't know what you think rebounded, because the way I see it, the 2/3 of life that went extinct are still extinct. You must realize that it has been suggested that about 95% of all species that have ever lived are extinct. Some contest this suggestion, but there is good evidence for it. George <snip> > If I can touch up on that topic again one more time, I would like to > know (and I will check the references mentioned) how often mutations [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the parts that developed would have remainded useless for how ever many > hundreds/thousands of years). First off these complicated organs were not useless in less complex forms as they evolved to the state they are in today. The light sensing organs run the gamut from small patches of surface cells able to sense little more than the general direction of light to the eyes of modern vertabrates. The same holds true for the heart and brain as well. How many mutation it takes to evolve a major organ is a very hard thing to quantify. These organs have been evolving for the better part of a billion years and there is simply no way, yet, to even estimate the total number. The other thing that seems funny to me, > is about 65 million years ago (when the dinosaurs disapeared ) > something like 2/3rds of species became extinct. If that is true, has > has nature been able to kick out so much in only that small amount of > time during an ice age! I look on the websites listed above, but tell > me if you have an answer (it will save me a little bit of time). 65M years ago almost all large terrestrial vertabrates and many aquatic vertabrates went extinct. This left many ecological niches empty and therefor competition which normally selects against most new features was greatly reduced which allowed for a period of evolutionary "innovation" to occur with the effect of allowing all those empty ecological niches to be refilled. > To be entirely honest, I am more interested in how life started and > even more curious about how atoms change when bonding with one another [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > sites, but I will take any information I can get here. Thanks for > helping me out! You really need to investigate a good chemistry text about states of matter. The subject is entirely too complicated to be described in a usenet post but you have some rather significant misconceptions about how this works. Ken > MoonRock > Ok, here is some information I would like to reccomend: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Note: I believe those who are ignorant are those who are not willing to > analyze every argument and piece of information that comes out. That is pure bull! Nobody lives long enough to "analyze every argument and piece of information that comes out." People who think they can must be incredibly ignorant themselves. A wise man or woman will keep an open mind long enough to learn where to look for good information. Good information about chemistry and biology comes from chemists and biologists -- not the Xtian fundies at ICR. Maybe one ought to look at a fundy website occasionally, just to remind himself how crazy their pseudoscience is. But check science sites to learn about science.  SignatureBill Dearmore mailto:bill@NoBull.ws http://NoBull.ws Yahoo IM: bdearmore P.S: No Bull is an award-winning website designed for skeptics, doubters, questioners, and thinkers. Everybody is welcome. on 14 Mar 2006 19:38:04 -0800, MoonRock <endermike@sbcglobal.net> sez: ` I am a freshman in highschool, and I have many interests and questions ` in science that far exceed what I can expect to learn in my biology ` class. Keep in mind that all these questions listed below I have asked ` my teachers and looked in my text books, and have still found no ` answer. ` Pull out your periodic tables for this one. The first thing I wanted to ` know is what makes selenium (34) a solid, bromine (35) a liquid and ` krypton (36) a gas? My teacher was able to tell me that the noble ` gasses (which includes Krytpon) where gases because their outer rings ` were filled up with 8 electrons (or something like that). I know it ` must be a energy thing, but no one has been able to tell my why or how ` it works. Does anyone here know, or is there a site or book one of you ` would recommend? Not particularly on topic for this group, however, I can recommend a good book for you. Isaac Asimov's "The Elements" is an excellent introduction to the broad ideas of chemistry. It's an easy read for a bright young teen, and packed with useful information. I read it at age 14 and it was a great background for subsequent classes. It's actually aimed at the adult non-scientist, as are Asimov's "Intelligent Man's Guide" series. If you find that you want more detail after reading that, I recommend introducing yourself, as you've done here, in the chem group, sci.chemistry, or search the sci.chem* hierarchy to see if there's another more appropriate, and ask your questions there, with the advantage of the grounding you got from the Asimov book. I would expect they'll be quite helpful. They will probably have some more modern texts to recommend - I'm not current on that stuff. Unfortunately you will have to separate your enquiries into different newsgroups by subject, but that isn't too much of a hardship. As to your questions on evolution, others will have more to say, but I think you should be able to understand, with a little grasp of numbers, and powers of ten, that when you consider that life seems to have gotten started over 3.5 BILLION years ago, and that single celled organisms can have generation times in the order of one hour, that an awful lot of very improbable things could have occurred with that many opportunities. All it takes is once, when the alteration is a substantial improvement in functionality. And don't forget to factor in how many cells you get in a colony which doubles in number every hour. That makes for an almost inconceivable number of instances for opportunity. You've heard of the story of the grains of cereal on the chessboard, right? The apparently humble request of a peasant for a reward of grain, from the king; nothing much, just put one grain on the first square of the board, two on the second, four on the third, eight on the fourth, and continue. No problem, says the king, who has to beg to be excused from the bargain the next day when he hears from his assistants that he will be bankrupted before they have gotten 3/4 the way across the board. Now consider that 48 squares corresponds to 48 hours of cell colony time, and that's just one colony, and you have billions of years worth of hours to play with, and who knows how many billions of colonies. Signature========================================================================== vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet. Thanks guys, I appreciate the help and will definetly look into these subjects. I understand it must be hard to deal with kids like me sometimes, so I'll try to come back later when I am more informed. How knows, after a class or too and dozen books later, I might be answering other peoples questions! Until then..................... MoonRock |
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