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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / May 2006



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Article: On the Failure of Human Civilisations

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Robert Karl Stonjek - 25 Apr 2006 01:26 GMT
On the Failure of Human Civilisations

The following points are made by Kathleen D. Morrison (Nature 2006 440:752):

1) Archaeology, it seems, really is a matter of life and death --this was the theme to emerge from a recent meeting convened to address the question of what makes societies more likely to collapse or to achieve long-term sustainability. Just as we do today, our ancestors faced problems of resource depletion, environmental degradation, political instability, demographic pressure and social upheaval. And, as today, success in dealing with these challenges was never assured.

2) Consider the following contrasts. The islands of eastern Polynesia were all settled within a few centuries of one another by people sharing the same ancestral culture. Yet whereas some islands, such as Tahiti, have sustained human populations for centuries, others, such as Easter Island (Rapa Nui), supported populous and complex societies for only a short time before experiencing profound demographic and social disruption. Completely isolated since its initial colonization, variously dated between about AD 750 and 1200, this scrap of land came to the notice of the world with the visit of the Dutch explorer Jacob Roggeveen on Easter Sunday, 1722. Roggeveen marvelled not only at the more than 200 massive stone statues, the Moai, which ring the coast, but also at the barrenness of the landscape and the destitution of its small population. The rich soils of Easter Island, oddly enough, supported a depauperate vegetation virtually devoid of woody plants.

3) That Easter Island had once supported a much larger population with a complex political structure was clear from the archaeological record. But it took a combination of archaeological and palaeoenvironmental data (pollen, microscopic charcoal and faunal analysis) to reveal the extent to which the island's degraded landscape was a product of human action. Once covered by subtropical forests dominated by a now-extinct species of large palm, the island environment was ravaged by intensive human exploitation. With the destruction of plants for canoe-building, offshore food resources such as the marine mammals exploited early in the island's human history receded from reach, as did any chance of mobility as an option for addressing the mismatch between resources and needs. Although ecological constraints certainly played a role in the variable success of human populations on Pacific islands, cultural practices were clearly also crucial. Longer-term sustainability involved agricultural systems and levels of resource extraction compatible with local conditions.

4) Not all anthropogenic environmental change has led to cultural collapse, as both the contrasts between Pacific islands and the evidence from more complex continental contexts shows. One such comparison is between the long-term occupation of the Basin of Mexico and the well-studied collapse of the Classic-period Maya. The Maya, a complex urban society organized into a series of competitive city states, abruptly ceased building monumental structures around the ninth century AD. Large parts of the Maya homeland were depopulated, although others continued to thrive. Many factors -- including environmental degradation, population expansion, warfare and a decline in the ideology of kingship --seem to have been at issue in the collapse. Not far away, however, in central Mexico, the city of Teotihuacan managed to maintain a large population, perhaps as many as 100,000 people, for more than 400 years. The area has continued to support a large population to this day.

Full Text at ScienceWeek
http://scienceweek.com/2006/sw060428-4.htm

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Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek

Day Brown - 25 Apr 2006 05:40 GMT
Presumably, we hope to determine what is coming from what has happened
before. I am somewhat bemused that the example of the chalcolithic
slavic cultures, which existed from 8000-4000 BCE without economic
colllapse, is never brought up when the issue of societal
disintegration is discussed.

In this case, the end seems to be the result of the first domesticated
horses being brought into the agrarian cultures on the riverine
floodplains of the rivers that empty into the West End of the Black
sea... which brought in Anthrax with them. The whole region was
abandoned for scores of years, and Anthrax is the only thing I can
think of that would cause this.

But far more common, is the effect of the monumentalism caused by rule
by alpha male egos. The dendochronology shows that Slavic Europe also
had period of drought or climate change during that span of 4000 years,
but it never resulted in the kind of rapid collapse we've seen by the
Maya, Teotihuacan, Chaco Canyon, Mississippian, or the Old World
collapses like seen in 4th dynasty Egypt.

Had they, rather than building monuments to feed the egos of male
leaders- and instead worked to diversify their resource base and manage
the timber as the Chalcolithic matriarchies had done, they would have
been able to feed their populations instead.

Another factor is that when the matriarchs are in charge, their women
practice birth control so that the population remains stable and there
is enough to handle the times when some crops fail. Repeatedly we see
where patriarchy has gone for the most food with the least effort-
monoculture. Maize in the West, Wheat & Rice in the East. But the bone
middens of the tels along the Danube show us over 100 wild and domestic
plants and animals were in the local diet.

It turns out that this has had a beneficial effect on childhood mental
development; the trace minerals found in wild food activates some of
the 150 or so neurotransmitters that are involved in the laying down of
new neural pathways during development.

I've read that when the Mississippians switched to monoculture in
maize, the averge lifespan of men went from 26 to 19.  But as we see,
men whose mental development is impaired are stupid and violent.

<Many factors -- including environmental degradation, population
expansion, warfare and a decline in the ideology of kingship --seem to
have been at issue in the collapse.>

These factors are all conspicuously absent in the Chalcolith tels from
SE Europe. Soil cores show that the tree pollen suggesting that they
never clearcut the forest. But they lived in large communal houses
where one fire kept them all warm. They rotated the crops and left
fields lie fallow, so they never destroyed the fertility of the  soil.
The tels were regularly spaced along the rivers every 3 km, and show
villages that were founded in 8000 BCE, were still villages 4000 years
later.

There are *no signs* of warfare. With no food shortages, no motivation.
Their language, Proto-Indo-European (PIE) has no word for "king". The
only word for authority they can find, (JP Mallory, In Search of the
Indo-Europeans p 123) is "raj". As in raja, region, regina, aregon
(sanskrit, english, latin, greek), and it turns out that it means a
*female* tribal leader of great wisdom and mana. ie- a 'raj' is a
'witch'. which you can hear if you speak the words.

No king, no harem. No harem, no warfare to increase the size of it.
puttster - 05 May 2006 03:33 GMT
> Presumably, we hope to determine what is coming from what has happened
> before. I am somewhat bemused that the example of the chalcolithic
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> No king, no harem. No harem, no warfare to increase the size of it.

Without the "...effect of the monumentalism caused by rule by alpha male
egos..." what would create civilization?  Not that there is anything wrong
with living in villages sitting peacefully and eating plentifully at the
communal fire, but some of us just have egos and want more.  More women,
more gold, more power, more fame...
Day Brown - 07 May 2006 20:17 GMT
> Without the "...effect of the monumentalism caused by rule by alpha male
> egos..." what would create civilization?  Not that there is anything wrong
> with living in villages sitting peacefully and eating plentifully at the
> communal fire, but some of us just have egos and want more.  More women,
> more gold, more power, more fame...

look at Kucha; in its day, the most powerful matriarchy ever seen, and
the richest city in the world. It was protected by the daunting
Taklamakhan desert west of China's Jade Gate. But eventually, there was
a real wet year, and poisoning the wells didnt work, and hordes of
mongols showed up.

But til then, it had all of what you cite. It was on the north side of
the desert, the south edge of the Tien Shen Mountians, on the middle
route of the Silk Road. The Northern route ran thru southern Siberia,
the southern route around the north edge of the Himalyas. Kucha was the
middle town on the middle route, best in spring and fall.

And at the outlet of a river valley. Up river, in the mountains was the
gold. And the Jade. And the iron. And the wood to make charcoal to forge
iron, gold, silver, & copper with.

We all know the world made China rich for silk; so imagine how rich
Kucha got selling what China wanted: Jade. But if you look at what
remains of Kucha, its neither mud huts nor palaces, but row after row of
comfortable middle class houses. They did build some monuments, but they
were multicultural, multireligious, and the monuments were Buddhist
stupas, and temples to the other 21 religions in town. No matter what
religion a merchant was, there was a place for them to pray. Frescos
show the merchants giving money to monks for the contsturction. so it
wasnt a hardship on the locals, but an industry for workers.

Curiously, the Merchants have red & blonde beards with green and blue
eyes. They were the Eastern Carian cousins of the Celts. Even wore
*tartans*.

Kucha also had the most famous brothels on the Silk Road. They were
owned by the city; so the queen, the Gautama was also a madam.

Since they were matriarchic, and arrived there as nomads, herds were
handed down in the female line. They devised tokens for this, like
washers, perforated disks, inscribed with the name of the herd,
pastureland, or whatever, and were able to run a string thru them so as
to carry them around on horseback.

Course, eventually, these disks were traded, and then made for the value
of the base metal itself, used as money. The Tocharian word for them is
"cash". Men paid cash to hear the "Koochi coo"; "i" was a feminine
suffix. The other thing they exported was highly trained women. The
priciest call girls in the Shang/Chou capital, Xian, were Kuchi.

They provided Kucha with the best intelligence system the world has ever
had. Kucha was also the main center of Buddhism for hundreds of years
from which China drew monks and to which some like Xuan Zang was sent by
the Chinese emperor.

So- they had the gold, the power, the women, the fame. Rather than
building monuments, they built vinyards, and had the best wine on the
Silk Road. They still export raisins. They ate well, dressed well, their
musicians like rock stars now, played all over the Silk Road; they also
had cannibis, ephedra, opium, and it all added up to a life of sex,
drugs, rock & roll.
http://anzi.biz/kucha.htm is an ebook I wrote about the place.
spiznet - 07 May 2006 23:56 GMT
...

> So- they had the gold, the power, the women, the fame. Rather than
> building monuments, they built vinyards, and had the best wine on the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> drugs, rock & roll.
> http://anzi.biz/kucha.htm is an ebook I wrote about the place.

Ross, is this what you are looking for?
rmacfarl - 08 May 2006 08:15 GMT
> ...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ross, is this what you are looking for?

<Suppressing grin...> There is more than one way to answer that, but
yes.

Actually this is a case where "woo-woo" seems more prescient than
"netloon":

"
4 Try to answer as few direct questions as possible. Always obfuscate
and try to sound learned. Mimic Richard Hoagland's style and you'll go
far.
"

http://www.insolitology.com/tests/credo.htm

Ross Macfarlane :-)
pete - 10 May 2006 04:29 GMT

> Curiously, the Merchants have red & blonde beards with green and blue
> eyes. They were the Eastern Carian cousins of the Celts. Even wore
> *tartans*.

Tartans are everywhere:

http://www.one2onekids.org/images/400%20610%20-%20WARRIORS%20(PF).JPG

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pete

Day Brown - 10 May 2006 09:31 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> http://www.one2onekids.org/images/400%20610%20-%20WARRIORS%20(PF).JPG

(page cannot be found)
Robert Karl Stonjek - 10 May 2006 11:48 GMT
> >>Curiously, the Merchants have red & blonde beards with green and blue
> >>eyes. They were the Eastern Carian cousins of the Celts. Even wore
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> (page cannot be found)

I worked for me...
pete - 10 May 2006 16:34 GMT
> >>Curiously, the Merchants have red & blonde beards with green and blue
> >>eyes. They were the Eastern Carian cousins of the Celts. Even wore
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> (page cannot be found)

You might have to hack the copy and paste a little bit,
for the URL. On my machine, when I click or copy the URL,
the ".JPG" part doesn't get picked up,
and I have to copy and paste that separately.

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pete

pete - 10 May 2006 16:36 GMT
> > > Tartans are everywhere:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the ".JPG" part doesn't get picked up,
> and I have to copy and paste that separately.

Actually, it's this part:  
   ).JPG
including the right parenthese, that doesn't get picked up.

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pete

Alan Kellogg - 11 May 2006 02:29 GMT
> > > > Tartans are everywhere:
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>     ).JPG
> including the right parenthese, that doesn't get picked up.

Worked for me. I triple-clicked to the right of the URL, and deleted the
carets after pasting it into the address field. The picture loaded right
quick.
Day Brown - 12 May 2006 05:50 GMT
>>>>>Tartans are everywhere:
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> carets after pasting it into the address field. The picture loaded right
> quick.
Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors. The Tartan
that EW Barber, "The Mummies of Urumchi" shows, of Green, yellow, and
brown, would instantly be recognized by a Scot; not only are the three
colors present, but the width of each is in the proper proportions. It
is, of course, also twill.
pete - 12 May 2006 12:55 GMT
> Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors.

I am unable to corroborate your statement.

http://www.google.com/search?q=difference+between+tartan+and+plaid&hl=en&lr=&ie=
UTF-8&start=20&sa=N


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tartan&db=*
http://www.scottishtartans.org/faq.html
http://www.scottishtartans.org/tartan.html
http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/d05.html

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pete

Day Brown - 13 May 2006 05:19 GMT
>>Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> http://www.scottishtartans.org/tartan.html
> http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/d05.html

http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/Site/Tartan/Designing/WhatIsATartan.asp
has an outline. to start with, there are *at least* two base colors, and the
twill weave will create at least one mixed, ie, the third color.
According to the formula they provide. Altho- none of the samples I've
ever seen had only 2 base colors... which the link says is minimum.

Curiously, altho they dont mention it, at the top of the webpage you see
a closeup of the weave. which is *twill*. You can make checks without
using twill, but I've never seen a tartan that wasnt twill. Twill
creates a characteristic kind of herringbone in the weave. The Chinese
didnt use twill; the Tocharians, like Celts and other Europeans, did.
pete - 13 May 2006 08:37 GMT
> >>Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors.

> there are *at least* two base colors, and the
> twill weave will create at least one mixed, ie, the third color.
> According to the formula they provide. Altho- none of the samples I've
> ever seen had only 2 base colors... which the link says is minimum.

Yes. I see.
Just exactly as in the picture which you said wasn't tartan.

http://images.google.com/images?q=masai+tartan&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en

Your definition of "plaid", seems to be original too.

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pete

pete - 13 May 2006 09:09 GMT
> >>Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors.
> >
> > I am unable to corroborate your statement.

> http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/Site/Tartan/Designing/WhatIsATartan.asp

> Altho- none of the samples I've
> ever seen had only 2 base colors... which the link says is minimum.

If we just take a look at the a's:

http://www.tartansauthority.com/web/site/tartan_results.asp?txtTartan=a

The Applecross tartan is just red and green.
The Aragon (Erskine) tartan is just red and black.
The Atlin tartan is just blue and brown.

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pete

Alan Kellogg - 14 May 2006 00:41 GMT
> > >>Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The Aragon (Erskine) tartan is just red and black.
> The Atlin tartan is just blue and brown.

The older the tartan (or arms) the more apt it is to violate the current
rules.
pete - 14 May 2006 02:12 GMT
> > > >>Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The older the tartan (or arms)
> the more apt it is to violate the current rules.

There are no rules, current or otherwise,
being violated by any of the tartans
which have been dicussed in this thread.

Day Brown's objection to a tartan containing only two
different colored threads was purely personal
and not conforming to any standard convention.

Signature

pete

Day Brown - 14 May 2006 03:49 GMT
> Day Brown's objection to a tartan containing only two
> different colored threads was purely personal
> and not conforming to any standard convention.
Be that as it may, when EW Barber, an archaeo fabrics expert,
saw the Tocharian weave, *she* called it "Tartan", and anyone who has
looked at tartans would agree with her. The Chinese dont wear Tartans,
nor the Persians or Indians.

Its well documented that the Tocharians brought their own DNA from
Slavic Europe, along with the sheep, the twill weave, the vegetable
dyes, and... the classic tartan pattern. From 1500+ years ago.

The reason relates to the hardwired, inherited relationship patterns
that neurologist Rmachandran talks about. There are certain combinations
of color, as we see with synesthesia, or geometric shape, smell, taste,
and so on that are more resonant with some gene pools than others.

The Chinese really get off on a certain shade of Red with Black and
Gold. Native American art also has a peculiar palette. And so it goes
from culture to culture. The Tartan shows one cultural genetic link
between the Celts and the Carians.
pete - 13 May 2006 09:18 GMT
> >>>>>Tartans are everywhere:

Here's a nice webpage by Matthew Newsome,
Member of the International Guild of Tartan Scholars,
curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum:

http://blog.albanach.org/2005/12/masai-tartans.html

Signature

pete

Day Brown - 14 May 2006 03:55 GMT
>>>>>>>Tartans are everywhere:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://blog.albanach.org/2005/12/masai-tartans.html

Yes, but I'd call it plaid, not tartan. The contrast betewen the red and
black is too muted for Celtic tastes. Not that the Masai aint perfectly
welcome to like what they want. The website I posted went into the more
complex geometric relationships between more than 2 colors, which is
partly the result of a twill weave that you cant get without it.

I dunno if the Celts and Carians had some practical advantage in twill,
or if the herringbone simply had some kind of synesthesic resonance. It
would be, as Ramachandran says, 'why cheese is sharp'.
pete - 14 May 2006 11:55 GMT
> >>>>>>>Tartans are everywhere:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> Yes, but I'd call it plaid, not tartan.

Even the nice red, white, and blue cloths in these pictures?

http://blog.albanach.org/uploaded_images/moran1-799379.jpg
  (The cloth on the man on the left, for above URL)
http://blog.albanach.org/uploaded_images/APARB_0317-768769.jpg
http://blog.albanach.org/uploaded_images/APARB_0364-702115.jpg

Signature

pete

Day Brown - 15 May 2006 06:12 GMT
 wrote:
>>Yes, but I'd call it plaid, not tartan.
> Even the nice red, white, and blue cloths in these pictures?

The overwhelming preponderance of red just dont do it for me. I dont
think a Celt would have cared for it either. And did his women weave it,
or was it shipped in from someplace that had machines to weave whatever
the investors thot would sell? Do these blankets spell out some kind of
clan identity? I dont *think* so.

The website I saw showed definite geometric relationships that resonate
with the Celtic occipital lobes with a balance of colors rather than the
plain checkerboard impression I see below.

> http://blog.albanach.org/uploaded_images/moran1-799379.jpg 
>    (The cloth on the man on the left, for above URL)
> http://blog.albanach.org/uploaded_images/APARB_0317-768769.jpg
> http://blog.albanach.org/uploaded_images/APARB_0364-702115.jpg

I think the Fibinacci ratios mite determine the widths of the various
colors the Celts used in Tartans. I cant tell from the images if they
are twill, but the twill tartan weaving technique would have involved
counting the number of warp and weft threads so that the single thinnest
line appears the right distance from the largest squares.

This kind of math was also used in the construction of lace; only the
smart girls could produce it, so it became a status symbol. That's not
the case with Masai warriors who dont care what the women think. There
is a reason that angry warriors "see red", and they instinctively know
that, and prefer it on that account. The palette of the Celts was very
different, and reflected in the much greater use of brown, yellow, and
green. This may well have orginated in the colors of the few durable
herb dyes early Celts had; their reds were a lot dimmer than the images
seen above.
nickname - 12 May 2006 17:09 GMT
Would this Kucha happen to be located near a volcanically warmed
somewhat large lake?  DD
Day Brown - 13 May 2006 05:24 GMT
> Would this Kucha happen to be located near a volcanically warmed
> somewhat large lake?  DD

No, but when the Tocharians moved into the Taklamakhan, there still was
a vast inland lake which is now the salt lake known as Lop Nor. It has
been shrunk to 1% of its ancient size, still full of meltwater from the
ice age. But I note this year, in particular, there was record snowfall,
and I expect the lake will be bigger this year than it has in decades.

Its prolly an effect of global warming. The artic ice melt means more
open water which delivers rain to central Asia.
nickname - 12 May 2006 17:00 GMT
Raja is male, Rana is female AFAIK. DD
Day Brown - 13 May 2006 05:35 GMT
> Raja is male, Rana is female AFAIK. DD

Nomenclature varies. JP Mallory "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" says
it traces back to "raj". no suffix. A 'raj' is a 'witch', which dont
have a suffix either. Since he published, I think the case can be made
that 'raj' is 6000-8000 years old, an era so full of changes I dont
think it can be nailed down more precisely.
jota@gorge.net - 13 May 2006 16:17 GMT
> > Raja is male, Rana is female AFAIK. DD
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that 'raj' is 6000-8000 years old, an era so full of changes I dont
> think it can be nailed down more precisely.

Since he published, what happened 6000-8000 years ago is NOW an "era so
full of changes I dont think it can be nailed down more precisely??"

And it is not so much a case of nomenclature, but etymology

Raj - rule, or reign, Sanskrit; Origins: A Short Etymological
Dictionary of Modern English, Eric Partridge

JT
Day Brown - 14 May 2006 04:22 GMT
>>>Raja is male, Rana is female AFAIK. DD
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Since he published, what happened 6000-8000 years ago is NOW an "era so
> full of changes I dont think it can be nailed down more precisely??"
Im not always as clear as I'd like to be for the sake of brevity.

But we have the abandonment of the Anatolian agrarian communities
*about* 8200 years ago; with some remnant hanging on in some places.
And, come to think of it, since I read that report, the C-14
recalibration controversy erupted, which may have an error rate for this
era of 10%, or 820 years.

Then, there's the Great Flood of the Euxine basin in the mid 6th mil
BCE; Again with C-14 ambiguity, some saying 5600 BCE. I posted on a
curious string of total solar eclipses that occurred between 5559 and
5525 BCE that would have provided stronger tidal forces on a region that
is still prone to earthquakes. But in any case, again, sometime in the
mid 6th mil, the agrarians were put on the move.

And finally, there is the wholesale abandoment of the whole riverine
dranage basin (Danube, Bug, Dneipr) about 4000 BCE. Which we now know
coincidedd with the introduction by the Kurgans of the first
domesticated horses. Gimbutas discusses the abandonment, which she notes
could not have been caused by the invasion of the warlike Kurgans
because it took hundreds of years. A snail wouldda been faster. But now,
looking at more evidence, its plain to me that it was Anthrax.

Oh ya- now more recently, there's support for a new agrarian culture
that emerged in Germany just after this. Where that bronze/gold moon
calculator was found. But in any case, we have at least three major
events, separated by hundreds of years, which would have created masses
of refugees, with trade springing up between the more distant new
communities and/or the PIE nomads betweem the catastrophes.

So- I dont see any way of sorting out just who went where when, or what
language, other than it being some PIE varient, they spoke. Satellite
radar shows trade routes we didnt even know existed, and a city dating
from the mid 3rd mil in the Kara Kum. It seems reasonable to assume that
while local dialects sprung up everywhere, there was some kind of Proto-
Indo-European Lingua franca that all the merchants spoke which tied the
variations of PIE together so that common words, like the "raj" family
of nouns, would be found everywhere.

Mallory published "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" in 1989, and knew
nothing of Ryan & Pitman's "Noah's Flood". He takes Gimbutas to task in
it, rejecting her theory of the home of the PIE south of the Urals, in
large part because of all the words related to lakes, fishing, boats,
and swamps that dont exist in that upland area. The Black sea had alredy
been rejected cause everyone knew that it was *salt water*, and that
there were no PIE words related to the marine environment.

But *now* Ryan and Pitman show, that at the time, it was fresh water.

> And it is not so much a case of nomenclature, but etymology
>
> Raj - rule, or reign, Sanskrit; Origins: A Short Etymological
> Dictionary of Modern English, Eric Partridge
now do the same with German, Latin, Greek, Tocharian, and several other
Indo European languages. The abundance of root forms is what supports
Mallory's case that "raj" was the o-'rig'-inal word.
jota@gorge.net - 14 May 2006 07:40 GMT
> >>>Raja is male, Rana is female AFAIK. DD
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> Indo European languages. The abundance of root forms is what supports
> Mallory's case that "raj" was the o-'rig'-inal word.

First, I am left with the impression you have a theory and gather
evidence to support it.

Second, Mallory may make the case for "raj," however, it does not seem
to be the dominate view, that would be "reg"

Third, you seem to be suggesting o-'rig'-inal has at its root "raj"
which does not seem to be the case either, maybe you could provide a
cite, if this is what you are trying to say.

JT
Daryl Krupa - 16 May 2006 02:16 GMT
<snip>
> > Then, there's the Great Flood of the Euxine basin in the mid 6th mil
> > BCE; Again with C-14 ambiguity, some saying 5600 BCE.
<snip>
> > Mallory published "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" in 1989, and knew
> > nothing of Ryan & Pitman's "Noah's Flood". He takes Gimbutas to task in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > But *now* Ryan and Pitman show, that at the time, it was fresh water.
<snip>

> First, I am left with the impression you have a theory and gather
> evidence to support it.
<snip>

 JT:

 That impression is not entirely accurate.
 Day Brown has been informed several times that Ryan abandoned that
particular hypothesis of a catastrophic flood in the Black Sea basin at

5600 BCE, and that his revision to a much-less-dramatic Black Sea flood

about a millennium earlier was prompted by the almost unanimous opinion

of marine scientists that his and Pitman's original 5600 BCE Black Sea
flood idea was impossible.
 FWIW, you won't find anything in the physical-science literature in
the last couple of years about a flood in the Black Sea basin, because
there's really no point in discussing it further. It's a dead issue.

  It took me several weeks of repeated attempts to get Day Brown to
stop giving a millennia-too-young date for the Younger Dryas episode,
which apparently resulted from the transference of that name of a
climatic episode to another less-dramatic cooling period much later,
and even then there was a qualifier that the names of those climatic
episodes didn't really matter.

 Day Brown  is not a reliable reporter of evidence.

- Daryl Krupa
Day Brown - 16 May 2006 05:44 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> - Daryl Krupa

Caveat Lector. I have not found the retraction you refer to but a
re-evaluation of the dating only because of the C-14 controversy. I dont
see this as settled science at all, and you will find a *Natl Geo*
website still posting on the Great Black Sea flood. which they would not
do were your characterization correct. A link which I have posted on
usenet in a reponse to you on this issue before.
pete - 17 May 2006 00:36 GMT
In sci.anthropology.paleo, on Mon, 15 May 2006 23:44:53 -0500,
Day Brown <daybrown@wildblue.net> sez:

` Daryl Krupa wrote:
` >    It took me several weeks of repeated attempts to get Day Brown to
` > stop giving a millennia-too-young date for the Younger Dryas episode,
` > which apparently resulted from the transference of that name of a
` > climatic episode to another less-dramatic cooling period much later,
` > and even then there was a qualifier that the names of those climatic
` > episodes didn't really matter.
` >
` >   Day Brown  is not a reliable reporter of evidence.
` >
` > - Daryl Krupa
` >
` Caveat Lector. I have not found the retraction you refer to but a
` re-evaluation of the dating only because of the C-14 controversy. I dont
` see this as settled science at all, and you will find a *Natl Geo*
` website still posting on the Great Black Sea flood. which they would not
` do were your characterization correct. A link which I have posted on
` usenet in a reponse to you on this issue before.

It's in their archive, and dated 1999. People are not in the habit of
deleting articles just because new evidence appears. The presence of
old articles on the net is not a demonstration of their current
validity by any stretch of the imagination.

Signature

==========================================================================
   vincent@triumf[munge].ca                            Pete Vincent
       Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

Day Brown - 17 May 2006 04:54 GMT
> It's in their archive, and dated 1999. People are not in the habit of
> deleting articles just because new evidence appears. The presence of
> old articles on the net is not a demonstration of their current
> validity by any stretch of the imagination.
Thanx Pete. I hadnt thot of that.
but it came up surfing for the rebuttals Daryl refers to. *IF* the
National Geo thot that a correction was needed, would they not post one
to protect their reputation if it is, as asserted, "settled science"?

Goggle had no hits on "Ryan Recant". None on "Euxine flood" debunk or
rebuttal.
at http://www.geosociety.org/meetings/2003/prAvalon.htm
<Sperling et al. (2003) and Spezafferri et al. (2003) subsequently
showed that there was no influence on the Eastern Mediterranean by Black
Sea outflow. They evidenced this by using isotopic records of
foraminifera from the Levantine Basin, Sea of Marmara and the Black Sea.
This may be seen as a rebuttal of the Aksu hypothesis, which is a
rebuttal of the Ryan and Pitman hypothesis.>

That dont sound like "settled science" either. from the *geosociety.org*
Then there's http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/session_9644.htm
Which has several links that summarize a variety of professional
geologic opinions that add several other floods that may also account
for the myth, but I didnt see anything like a 'rebuttal' or the
dismissiveness implied in this thread. Ryan heads off the presentations,
which would not have happened had his work been as thoroughly
discredited as stated in this thread.

ÇAGATAY, M. Namik, Geological Engineering Department, Faculty of Mining
and Eurasian Institute of Earth Sciences, Ayazaga, Istanbul, 80626,
Turkey, cagatay@itu.edu.tr and GÖRÜR, Naci :"...The Black Sea outflow
appears to be persistent only after about 8 kyr BP."
2003 Seattle Annual Meeting (November 2–5, 2003)
Ergo, the Black Sea was not pouring thru the Bosphorus before that.

Google had lotsa hits like:
http://www.geocities.com/gardenofdanu/the_great_deluge.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b90460260c1.htm
http://www.salvoblue.homestead.com/noah.html

To sum what I've seen so far, while there may have been even more
disastrous floods in the Caspian/Euxine basins, its the flood outlined
by Ryan and Pitman which fit the myth and occured after there wer more
agrarian communities who would have felt the effects severely. Prior to
this, the hunter/gather tribes would have simply moved to higher ground,
and being somewhat nomadic would not have known how unusual such a flood
at any particular place was... or had crops destroyed by it.
Daryl Krupa - 17 May 2006 05:14 GMT
 Day Brown's reply ignores all the information that I have repeatedly
presented to Day Brown, to which Day Brown has replied in Usenet ngs.
'E's im-fookin-pervious!
nickname - 14 May 2006 18:31 GMT
I'm no linguist scholar. I interpret "original" to be derived from Ur-
/ Or-
from PIE(?) / Proto-Sumerian / Austric common tongue source,
derived into oral (mouth), orifice (hole), Ur, Ural,
orang (human).
Thanks for other responses.  DD
Day Brown - 15 May 2006 05:45 GMT
> I'm no linguist scholar. I interpret "original" to be derived from Ur-
> / Or-
> from PIE(?) / Proto-Sumerian / Austric common tongue source,
> derived into oral (mouth), orifice (hole), Ur, Ural,
> orang (human).
> Thanks for other responses.  DD

Me either; but to resond to Jota as well, there is a large set of
English words, never mind the other IE languages, that have this sound
that relate to resource man-age-ment. Mallory cited some, but just off
the top of my head: 'garage', 'arrange', 'region', 'regime', and of
course, "witch". Note how much 'witch' and 'raj' sound like even tho
spelled totally differently.

And besides the nomenclature, Gimbutas collected oral tradition from
obscure rural communities all over Europe that had similar phrases,
ideas, and story lines. Ballantine & Oswald found the same thing looking
at clerical traditions and oral traditions that were preserved in early
IE texts and re-lig-ious practice that they think date from the original
unified Proto-Indo-European culture in the mid 6th mil BCE.

For instance, Druid, Brahmin, Roman, Greek clerics all wore robes that
were basically drag. This is still evident in the transvestite priests
to Kali in Bengal, and the reports that some Scythians banned men from
clerical positions. Which was why they invented a potion made from
pregnant mare's piss that had so much estrogen that the fags lost their
whiskers and got what the queens now call 'doggie tits'.

Besides the IE clerics never wearing pants but always robes, often with
feminine traits like lace, they were banned from ever using weapons that
drew blood. There commonly are unusual rules regarding whether a cleric
could be married, and if divorced, lost his position, another clue to
the power of women. Often the cleric carries a wand, not at all useful
as a weapon, that can be traced back in its design to tools women used,
like spindle whorls or the distaff, to manage fabric.

Besides the mare's potion, clerics also resorted to castration. Now I
ask, if they were not trying to mimic the pre-historic power of women,
why would they do this? There's nothing like this in East Asia or the
New World because women there were never in charge.

Moreover, the further you get from the militaristic patriarchy of Rome,
the more power the women of Northern Europe had, and still have. There's
another powerful clue to the power of women seen on Mallory's cover of
his "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" (posted at
http://anzi.biz/artifax.htm ) which is described on the flyleaf as an
"Iranian Steppe Nomad taking a classic 'Parthian' shot over his
shoulder." Only thing is, that if you look at the bronze figure, you can
clearly see *her* tit.

EW Barber, "The Mummies of Urumchi" notes that the early horses, such as
the one on Mallory's cover, were small and only women could ride them
into battle in the era before the stirrup. Mallory reports that these
horses were only 137 cm at the withers. So- if you put the classic 6ft
Aryan warrior on a steed like this, he'd run it into the ground within a
mile. Even the smaller Mongols, who developed the stirrup, took 5 horses
with so they could change off often.

Moreover, these were not the kind of flat backed beasts seen now, but
had sharp backbones like goats that would have pounded a man's balls
into mush in the heat of battle. Mallory also notes that the Cucuteni,
would would have been among the first to receive horses, were as he
says, "gracile". Thus a 90 pound woman on such a horse could ride away
faster than any warrior could run after her, and none of them would be
able to ride as fast either. Take it on the basis of the standard male
warrior rule:"force always wins", and in this case the strength of his
sword arm didnt cut schitt.

Just as Mallory, who is a fine scholar, didnt notice the tits, so also a
lot of other researchers have not seen the trees for the forest. These
women could not be dominated by men. They still had c.nts to get all the
men they wanted to go along with the matriarchic agendas, especially in
the eras before the evolution of virulent STDs.

European myth is full of warriors like the Neibelung who are made fools
of by hotties, or who stumble into some crime against matriarchy and
need some act of redemption. The Chalcolithic matriarchies left mostly
female figures, many in postures of authority (see Gimbutas' photos).
All the men I can recall depicted are sitting, pensive or musicians or
craftsmen but one. He stands erect... and with a hand on his forehead
looks as if he is saluting. And whereas the male figures of all other
(patriarchic) cultures are commonly rendered with, and bearing weapons,
only this one dude has a weapon, a knife in his belt.

But dont argue with me, argue with the women; I *never* read a woman
challenge me on the reasonable deduction that there was an era in Europe
when women ran the show. European women still have far more power than
women of any other race. When did they acquire it? Under what king? Why
has Europe had so many more queens than any other region?
jota@gorge.net - 15 May 2006 06:58 GMT
> > I'm no linguist scholar. I interpret "original" to be derived from Ur-
> > / Or-
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> course, "witch". Note how much 'witch' and 'raj' sound like even tho
> spelled totally differently.

Are you serious, 'witch' and 'raj' sound like? Not that sound is any
indicator of origin.

Garage is from a completely different word, so is arrange and neither
share any root in common.

Region and regime are both from the Latin rex, which is from IE reg

Day, I think you are pretty much in the dark on what you are talking
about.

JT
nickname - 16 May 2006 02:33 GMT
Rex, regia, reign, ray of sun, Ra/Re (Egypt), Brahma, others.
Lots of trade and movement and mixture in the past, hard to tell.   DD
jota@gorge.net - 16 May 2006 03:39 GMT
> Rex, regia, reign, ray of sun, Ra/Re (Egypt), Brahma, others.
> Lots of trade and movement and mixture in the past, hard to tell.   DD

Then we know nothing more.  It is then equally possible every
possibility is true, but it is only an acknowledgement of ignorance,
not knowing anything.

JT
Day Brown - 16 May 2006 06:05 GMT
>>Rex, regia, reign, ray of sun, Ra/Re (Egypt), Brahma, others.
>>Lots of trade and movement and mixture in the past, hard to tell.   DD
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> JT

Well of course, where do we find an unbiased source? Who is to be the judj!

EW Barber argues that of all the IE tribes, one had to move east most
directly and arrive at a remote point in the Altai earlies with the
least influence from other tribes, with therefore the most vestiges of
Proto-Indo-Europan PIE. Douglas Adams has a few books out on Tocharian
in which makes frequenc repeated comparisons to PIE with Tocharian.

He notes a large number of curiousities about Tocharian, but limits
himself to just the facts of the language itself without trying to
to explain aspects of the culture that would give rise to them.

But I also have a copy of the Maitreyasamiti Texts in Tocharian A, which
is a conversation between the living Buddha and the Gautamid Queen of
Kucha. (We know its Kucha because of the reference to the monks at the
Sibushi monestary that is 12 miles north of town) The oddities Adams
refers to are all explained by the fact that Tocharians were matriarchic.

Thus European languages have 'deus' or 'dios'. Which comes from the
original PIE word, which Mallory notes has the same feminine suffix:
"*os". Which fits with Gimbutas claiming that the people of Chalcolithic
Danubian Europe accepted the Great Earth *Mother* as the character of
the divine. Which stands in stark contrast to the alpha male father
figures that emerge later.

Of course all this is routinely dismissed, that is- by men. I dont see
the women so dismissive.
jota@gorge.net - 16 May 2006 14:53 GMT
> >>Rex, regia, reign, ray of sun, Ra/Re (Egypt), Brahma, others.
> >>Lots of trade and movement and mixture in the past, hard to tell.   DD
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> Well of course, where do we find an unbiased source? Who is to be the judj!

We most definitely will not find it in someone whom twist every piece
of evidence to fit their predetermined conclusion.

JT
Day Brown - 17 May 2006 05:01 GMT
>>Well of course, where do we find an unbiased source? Who is to be the judj!
> We most definitely will not find it in someone whom twist every piece
> of evidence to fit their predetermined conclusion.
Telling you who wont be correct dont tell you who is.

When I was in school, "plate tectonics" was a crank theory. New
explanations are always regarded, properly, with skepticism, but not
with dismmissiveness from those with open minds.

I try to present the facts of nomenclature, myth, archaeological
artifacts, DNA, and both modern and ancient culture. You make of them
what you will, and are perfectly free to present the source of other
facts you think bear on the issue at hand. If you have any.
jota@gorge.net - 17 May 2006 07:04 GMT
> >>Well of course, where do we find an unbiased source? Who is to be the judj!
>
> > We most definitely will not find it in someone whom twist every piece
> > of evidence to fit their predetermined conclusion.
>
> Telling you who wont be correct dont tell you who is.

Yes it does.  It is just a process of elimination.

It works because in the beginning, all possibilities are considered
equally true, or correct.

So we know from the beginning which are correct, ALL.  It is after
testing those which do not hold true are considered less likely, or
false.

> When I was in school, "plate tectonics" was a crank theory. New
> explanations are always regarded, properly, with skepticism, but not
> with dismmissiveness from those with open minds.

Here is the bottom line, logic does not work if you know what you hope
to find.  It is just a logical fallacy, circular reasoning.

In this thread you have provided three pieces of evidence which have
been refuted, tartan, raj, and the flooding of the Black Sea.  Which
means when you use them as legs for what you claim, the claim falls
down.

You may believe what you believe, but it begs the question (circular
reasoning) how you reached the conclusion with faulty evidence.

It does not mean the possibility is not true, it only means how you got
there is not.

> I try to present the facts of nomenclature, myth, archaeological
> artifacts, DNA, and both modern and ancient culture. You make of them
> what you will, and are perfectly free to present the source of other
> facts you think bear on the issue at hand. If you have any.

Actually find what you are presenting intriguing.  It is when you use
things as clear support, which are shown to be not, and then jump to a
conclusion that such must follow, it leaves one thinking you have not
been critical in your thought.

This leaves two options, revise or concede, to continue makes for a
crank.

JT
Day Brown - 17 May 2006 18:05 GMT
> In this thread you have provided three pieces of evidence which have
> been refuted, tartan, raj, and the flooding of the Black Sea.  Which
> means when you use them as legs for what you claim, the claim falls
> down.

Since the Black Sea flood has the most links, lets look at the
'refutations' you refer to. I posted what I could find, which include
the last word from the National Geo in support of Ryan, but *no*
refutation or recantation of that webpage posted by them.

If you can find such a webpage from the National Geo I'd be grateful. I
am sure that if it is indeed 'settled science' that the Great Flood is
bunk, the Natioal Geo would want to know and post a correction to
protect their reputation.

The most extensive scientific webpage on the subject, which I posted,
had several additional and different interpretations presented, but
again, I did *not* see the 'settled science' on this issue, but au
contraire, several calls for further research.

Regarding Tartan, I spoke with a Scots/irish Ozark witch last nite. If
you look at the exact wording, I referred to what archaeo-fabrics expert
EW Barber called "classic tartan". The red checks shown on Masai
warriors could not be classic tartan because there was no such *red*.
The Celts and Carians who developed Tartan did so with the vegetagble
dyes they had to work with: orange, green, brown, & black.[that's a
period] Later on, the blue dye from the Agean shell fish was introduced,
but it was so expensive that blue in classic tartans existed only as a
few threads of a thin band.

For similar reasons the Roman 'purple' was royal. You dont see the reds
of the posted photos until coal tar dyes. which hardly qualifies.
jota@gorge.net - 17 May 2006 20:43 GMT
> > In this thread you have provided three pieces of evidence which have
> > been refuted, tartan, raj, and the flooding of the Black Sea.  Which
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> bunk, the Natioal Geo would want to know and post a correction to
> protect their reputation.

It does not need to be shown it is bunk  BECAUSE your pet theory rest
upon a paticular time and causing the displacement of a settled
population of that TIME.

To quote from Daryl Krupa's post "the almost unanimous opinion
of marine scientists that his and Pitman's original 5600 BCE Black Sea
flood idea was impossible."

>From your post "Then, there's the Great Flood of the Euxine basin in
the mid 6th mil
BCE; Again with C-14 ambiguity, some saying 5600 BCE. I posted on a
curious string of total solar eclipses that occurred between 5559 and
5525 BCE that would have provided stronger tidal forces on a region
that
is still prone to earthquakes. But in any case, again, sometime in the
mid 6th mil, the agrarians were put on the move."

Any bells go off???

> The most extensive scientific webpage on the subject, which I posted,
> had several additional and different interpretations presented, but
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> but it was so expensive that blue in classic tartans existed only as a
> few threads of a thin band.

You are shifting the goal post

"Those are plaid, but not tartans, which require three colors. The
Tartan
that EW Barber, "The Mummies of Urumchi" shows, of Green, yellow, and
brown, would instantly be recognized by a Scot; not only are the three
colors present, but the width of each is in the proper proportions. It
is, of course, also twill."

You most definitely claim the issue is whether it is PLAID

This position was REFUTED!

YOU WERE AND ARE WRONG.

To persist is dishonest.

JT
Day Brown - 19 May 2006 05:00 GMT
> To quote from Daryl Krupa's post "the almost unanimous opinion
> of marine scientists that his and Pitman's original 5600 BCE Black Sea
> flood idea was impossible."
And I posted a link to presentations by Ryan and other geologists that
had *no* such unanimous opinion. Or any follow up rebuttal.

Be that as it may, you live in your world, I live in mine, and if you
find any links on further *data*, not opinion, on what has been found,
or not found, on the bottom of the Black Sea, I'd be grateful.
jota@gorge.net - 19 May 2006 07:36 GMT
> > To quote from Daryl Krupa's post "the almost unanimous opinion
> > of marine scientists that his and Pitman's original 5600 BCE Black Sea
> > flood idea was impossible."
> And I posted a link to presentations by Ryan and other geologists that
> had *no* such unanimous opinion. Or any follow up rebuttal.

Think the quote was "marine scientists"  Yep, just looked

> Be that as it may, you live in your world, I live in mine,

Then it is just a fantasy world.  So what was the point?

> and if you
> find any links on further *data*, not opinion, on what has been found,

> or not found,

This could be a long list.

> on the bottom of the Black Sea, I'd be grateful.
Daryl Krupa - 20 May 2006 23:24 GMT
> > To quote from Daryl Krupa's post "the almost unanimous opinion
> > of marine scientists that his and Pitman's original 5600 BCE Black Sea
> > flood idea was impossible."
> And I posted a link to presentations by Ryan and other geologists that
> had *no* such unanimous opinion. Or any follow up rebuttal.
<snip>

 You posted a quotation without a link, and then your own conclusion:

<BEGIN QUOTE>
ÇAGATAY, M. Namik, Geological Engineering Department, Faculty of
Mining
and Eurasian Institute of Earth Sciences, Ayazaga, Istanbul, 80626,
Turkey, caga...@itu.edu.tr and GÖRÜR, Naci :"...The Black Sea outflow

appears to be persistent only after about 8 kyr BP."
2003 Seattle Annual Meeting (November 2-5, 2003)
Ergo, the Black Sea was not pouring thru the Bosphorus before that.
<END QUOTE>

 The abstract from which you selectively quoted is here:

WATER EXCHANGE BETWEEN MEDITERRANEAN AND BLACK SEAS
DURING LATE GLACIAL-HOLOCENE:
EVIDENCE FROM MARMARA AND BLACK SEAS

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_57861.htm

 There we can see that you snipped a few lines of refutation,
like this one:

"The water level started rising as a result of the marine flooding
via the Istanbul (Bosphorus)Strait, and reached to -27 m by
~8.1 kyr BP and -18 m by 7.2 kyr BP."

 Ergo, the level of the Black Sea was the same as the level of
the Mediterranean Sea about a millennium before the date of Ryan's
and Pitman's hypothetical ~7.15 kyr BP flood, and rose slowly
thereafter, right through the time of the hypothetical flood, when
the level of the Black Sea was supposed to be about -150 m.
 Cagatay's and Gorur's Black Sea level of
"-18 m by 7.2 kyr BP"
is ~130 m higher than Ryan's and Pitman's
~ -150 m by ~7.15 kyr BP.
 The opinion of marine scientists Cagatay and Gorur is that Ryan's
and Pitman's hypothetical Black Sea flood of Mediterranean water at
a level of ~ -15m to a Black Sea at a level of ~ -150 m at ~7.15 kyr BP

is impossible.

 Of course, the line you did quote is in itself a refutation of Ryan's

and Pitman's Black Sea Flood hypothesis:

"The Black Sea outflow appears to be persistent only after about 8 kyr
BP."

 Ryan and Pitman dated their flood to ~7.15 kyr BP.
 Ergo, Cagatay and Gorur state that the Black Sea was ovewrflowing
towards the Mediterranean Sea, from whence Ryan's and Pitman's
hypothetical floodwaters were supposed to have come, about
8 centuries before the hypothetical flood in the other direction, and
persisted right through the time of the hypothetical flood, and
continues today.
 No chance of Mediterranean waters breaking through an imaginary
blockage of the Bosphorus Strait to flow northeastwards towards a
much lower Black Sea when flow southwestward out of a Black Sea
at the same level as the Mediterranean Sea, towards the Mediterranean
Sea, is persistent at the time that flow in either direction supposed
to
have been blocked.

 You can't have it both ways.

> Be that as it may, you live in your world, I live in mine, and if you
> find any links on further *data*, not opinion, on what has been found,
> or not found, on the bottom of the Black Sea, I'd be grateful.

 For pity's sake.
 You have them already.
 You just won't stop twisting them to fit your preconceived notions.

 Day Brown is not a reliable reporter.

 And now, more lines of refutation accessible from the link that Day
Brown cited:

"The Holocene transgression and "Ryan's flood" began
from -35 m at ~8.6 ka BP but not -140 m as was proposed."

"The beginning of this latest transgression,
regardless of Black Sea or Mediterranean originated waters,
was found to be at about 11.8 ky BP in the southwestern shelf,
whereas 8.5 ky in the southeastern shelf from the coarse-grained shelly

(mixed neo-euxinian and Mediterranean fauna) sedimentary unit lying
at or close to erosional surface."

"About 9.5 kyr ago the sea level of the Mediterranean reached - 34 m.
At this time water began to flow over the Bosporus to the Black Sea.
Since then the sea level, the salinity and the sulfate content of the
Black Sea have been increasing up to the present."

 And from another presentation by the person who organised
the conference to which proceedings Day Brown pointed:

http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/00359/EGU06-J-00359.pdf?PHPSESSID=db58005d6
df180b72629bc23ed7d1812


"Barring new and more supportive evidence, one must conclude that
the Early Holocene Black Sea "Flood" represents a contemporary
legend.
The intriguing geological and archaeological history of the Pontic
region
deserves more research and will eventually reward exploration with new
discoveries, but
media portrayals of
a catastrophic turning point in human history
on the scale of the biblical deluge
have diverted serious attention away from
its real geographical and cultural importance.
The public perception that "Noah's Flood" happened there
is
not
acceptable."

-
Daryl Krupa

 P.S.: Day Brown, shut up about this, already. You're embarrassing
yourself.
Day Brown - 21 May 2006 03:08 GMT
Given the controversy over c-14 dating that emerged since "Noah's
Flood", I find the 8kbp referred to as consistent with the 7.5 that Ryan
suggested based on the C-14 dating that was available when he wrote.

Ryan suggested that there had been episodic spillover, thru the Sakarya
valley before the Great Flood. But their analysis says that the
*consistent* outflow didnt start until the Great Flood; which is what
the author of the 8kbp date said.

I posted the link, you cited the link, and you could have looked at all
the other presentations on this issue made at that meeting. I didnt see
any of the 'settled science' you say rebuts Ryan, but a frequent call
for more data on the subject. Which I am willing to wait for.

If it was 'settled science' the National Geo would have posted the
results of that finding to correct what you claim are the errors on
their archived webpage. I didnt see any such update from National Geo.
If you have such a recantation from the National Geo, I'd be grateful.
nickname - 21 May 2006 18:45 GMT
Daryl, in a nutshell, would this be right?
About 8ka, a big glacial lake in Canada broke thru a dam and flushed
the gulf stream chilling west coast of Europe, approximately the same
time the Caspian was flooding into the Black due to glacial melt,
causing the Black to overflow into the Mediterranean... however both
the Black and Medit. were about the same surface level, so due to
tectonic and hydrological actions (Canadian lake flush) occasionally
Medit. waters moved back into the Black.
If the above is true, then my question is, previous to the glacial
melt, was the Black a saline sea or freshwater or like the Caspian (1/3
salinity of Ocean).   DD
Daryl Krupa - 25 May 2006 06:50 GMT
DD:
 Definitely not freshwater; always some degree of brackish
(like the Caspian Sea).

-
Daryl Krupa
nickname - 26 May 2006 00:21 GMT
OK, that makes the most sense, being derived from the Tethys with
variable amounts of precip. etc. I figure previous to the last glacial
melt, both seas were getting pretty saline and low, though some fresh &
brackish waters around the inlets.  DD
Daryl Krupa - 27 May 2006 02:13 GMT
> OK, that makes the most sense, being derived from the Tethys with
> variable amounts of precip. etc. I figure previous to the last glacial
> melt, both seas were getting pretty saline and low, though some fresh &
> brackish waters around the inlets.

 D "nickname" D:
 Hmm. I see that I'd better reply to your last posting in detail.
 FWIW, the Tethys Sea ceased to exist long before humans
began to exist, in fact before the age of earliest ape fossils
around the Mediterranean Sea, IIRC, certainly more than
5 million years ago .

<BEGIN QUOTE>
Daryl, in a nutshell, would this be right?
About 8ka, a big glacial lake in Canada broke thru a dam and flushed
the gulf stream chilling west coast of Europe, approximately the same
time the Caspian was flooding into the Black due to glacial melt,
causing the Black to overflow into the Mediterranean... however both
the Black and Medit. were about the same surface level, so due to
tectonic and hydrological actions (Canadian lake flush) occasionally
Medit. waters moved back into the Black.
If the above is true, then my question is, previous to the glacial
melt, was the Black a saline sea or freshwater or like the Caspian (1/3

salinity of Ocean).   DD
<END QUOTE>

 Hokay, more or less, but not quite exactly right.
 Here's a simplistic version of the Black Sea's recent history:
 At Last Glacial Maximum (say, at about 18 ka),
the Black Sea was probably overflowing into the Mediterranean Sea,
but not _necessarily_ through the Bosphorus Strait. The most likely
candidate for an alternative connection is via Izmit Bay and the
Sakarya River valley. This overflow may have carried some smallish
component of glacial meltwater from the Fennoscandian Ice Sheet
(FIS) via the Dneiper river. The level of the Mediterranean Sea (MS)
would have been more than 100 m lower than it is today.
 Sometime near the Younger Dryas episode (which was possibly
related to an earlier partial drainage of Glacial lake Agassiz, through

the Mackenzie River valley), the level of the Black Sea (BS) seems
to have started to drop (maybe to -150 m), and thus to have stopped
overflowing into the Mediterranean Sea.
 Then the Caspian Sea (CS) rose enough to overflow through the
Kuma-Manych Channel (named after the rivers at either end)
north of the Caucasus Mountains, without eroding a really obvious
channel (and therefore not with catastrophic vigour). The Aral Sea
also expanded at that time, so the CS overflow was maybe the
result of climatic cooling leading to reduced evaporation and/or
extra precipitation.
 That CS overflow may have raised the level of the BS above
the level of the Bosphorus sill ( -35 m), and there is evidence from
a now-submerged delta at the south end of the Bosphorus that
the BS was overflowing through the Bosphorus by about 10 ka.
At that time, the MS level was slowly rising because of the input
of glacial meltwater into Ocean, but was lower than the Bosphorus
sill.
 Then the CS overflow ceased, and the BS level may have dropped
again, this time to about -85 m.
 The MS level rose to the Bosphorus sill about 9ka, and from then on,
there is evidence of saltwater incursions into the BS.
 Ryan says, in his Letter on the subject of a revised BS Flood
in Earth and Planetary Science Letters
(not necessarily critically reviewed before publication)
that about 8.2 ka (or 8.4ka, or 9ka; the dates he presents are
complicated and non-uniform),
the MS started to overflow into the BS and quickly raise the BS level
from
its later -85 m lowstand to something like the -35 m Bosphorus sill
level.
he might be right about that, except that his data can be interpreted
to
allow up to three centuries for that rise in BS level, and there is no
mention
in his revised BS Flood hypothesis for the catastrophic scouring-out of
the
Bosphorus Strait that was a linchpin of the earlier version put forth
by him
and Pitman (that catastrophic-breaching-of-the-Bosphorus scenario was
in
their book, in media interviews, and on a TV program, but not in any
scientific journal).
 There is evidence from a delta at the mouth of the Sakarya River (at
the
BS shore, east of the north end of the Bosphorus) that BS level was at
or
above Bosphorus sill level from 8.2 ka onward
(and possibly earlier, because that date was from the bottom of the
dated
material, and there is no information there about what happened
earlier),
and slowly rose with MS level, until it reached -18 m at about 7.2 ka
(which is the date of the BS Flood (Mk. I) of Ryan and Pitman, when
they
had BS level at -150 m).
 Global sea level, MS level, and BS level all would have stabilised at

modern sea level about 6000 years ago, when significant input of
glacial
meltwater ended, which was when the last remnants of North America's
Laurentide Ice Sheet (LIS) disappeared (except for two small ice caps
on
Baffin Island, which persist today).

 Ryan indicates in that BS Flood (Mk. II) Letter that at the time of
their
supposed BS Flood (Mk. I), the BS level was the same as MS level, and
that the BS was overflowing into the MS, and that the "sudden"
appearance
of saltwater shells at about 7.2 ka (not really "sudden", tho) that
they noted
was due to "a salinity change", i.e. an alteration of water quality at
depth,
not at the surface, one that did not involve any flooding of the BS
basin at all.
 Pitman has not publicly disagreed with him.
 They are no longer defending their BS Flood (Mk. I) from the
rebuttals of
those who know more about the history of the Black Sea than they
bothered
to find out (one of the supposed co-authors of their sketchy
one-and-only
scientific article on the subject, Naci Gorur, soon was seen to be one
of the
rebutters; the only mention of him in their book is an indication that
they had
lunch at the same place one day).

 The last drainage of Glacial Lake Agassiz may have increased the rate
of
saltwater incursion into the BS, or even started flow of MS water
through the
Bosphorus, but it did not initiate that saltwater incursion into the
BS. It
does roughly coincide with Ryan's BS Flood (Mk. II), but only if you
hold your
tongue just right and squint at it.

 The salinity of the BS varied over time:
at LGM, it was fresher than today, but not as fresh as the rivers that
fed it;
it would have gotten saltier as its water evaporated enough to drop to
a
-150 m lowstand;
addition of CS overflow (itself fresher than today, but not as fresh as
Volga
River water) would have reduced BS salinity again;
BS salinity would have increased again as it dropped to a -85 m
lowstand;
BS salinity would have increased dramatically at its floor, as denser
MS
saltwater sank below the fresher water above;
at some time after 9ka, the salinity of the BS would have stabilised to

what it is today: salty at depth, a brackish (half-salty) mix of
saltwater and
fresh river water in the upper levels, and relatively fresh at river
mouths
(where survivors from fresher-water times, relatives of fresher-water
shellfish
that left fossils in earlier times, can still be found).
 Today, the lower level of the Bosphorus Strait is MS saltwater
flowing
northward, and the upper level is BS brackish water flowing southward.
 The BS outflow is about double the MS inflow; the difference between
the
flow volumes is about the same as the total river inflow into the BS,
so that
the flows through the Bosphorus are balanced, except for the outflow
from
rivers. That two-level flow has been happening continuously for at
least 5000
years, i.e. for at least as long as global sea level has been at a
stable level.

 This is what we know from the fossil record.

 Tectonic movement is a minor factor in the history of the Black Sea,
unless you want to speculate that an earlier Izmit Bay / Sakarya River
valley connection between the BS and the MS was closed by uplift of
the floor of the middle of that channel.
 There is no evidence of a rapid drop in the floor of the Bosphorus
which
would have created a sudden opening of that Strait; rather, it
originated as
a rift valley with rivers flowing away from a divide along the line of
the
mountains which rise above the south shore of the BS. The divide was
a high point in the floor of that rift valley before it subsided enough
for the
northern river valley to extend into the headwaters of the southern
river valley,
enough so that the modern high point in the floor of the rift valley,
the sill near
the Golden Horn promontory of Istanbul, is nearly at the southern end
of the
rift valley.
 At some point, the sill became lower than the level of either the BS
or the
MS, and it then became a conduit for outflow from the BS and/or inflow
from
the MS.
 That sill is covered with sandy sediment that was probably derived
from
local rivers, at times when conduit flow through the rift valley was
slow or
non-existent. There is no evidence that the sill area was scoured by a
sudden catastrophic rush of water from either direction.

 Capice?

-
Daryl Krupa
Day Brown - 27 May 2006 04:46 GMT
> There is no evidence that the sill area was scoured by a
> sudden catastrophic rush of water from either direction.
>
>   Capice?

Detailed maps of the bottom both north and south of the Bosphorus would
help support your position. The only way a scour would *not* have
happened in the long litany you present of the various levels of the
Black and Agean seas, is that if when the channel opened up, and *every*
time it opened up, there wasnt much diff between the waterlevels both
north and south of the Bosphorus.

The volume of water on each end of the Bosphorus would have rapidly cut
a deeper channel until the two bodies were at the same level.
nickname - 27 May 2006 16:45 GMT
Daryl, I was speaking in general terms, where the Medit., Black,
Caspian ( and Balkash) (possibly though unlikely the Tarim basin?) are
remnants of the former Tethys sea, containing animals that have
speciated since they were last connected, before uplift (caucasians)
and lowering sea levels. Before the last glacial melt, all of these
seas must have been getting low and saline. Then the big melt refilled
the seas with lots of freshwater, producing a brackish sea (Caspian) or
a stratified sea (Black), sometimes causing overflows into adjacent
seas. I think there may have been hominids/Homo around the saline seas
before the big melt, and the melt and flooding moved them upland. So
I'm guessing there are probably lots of hom. teeth at the
saline/freshwater boundary of the Black sea, 500' below the current sea
level or so IIRC. I've no idea if this fits with the geol/hydrol data,
I'll see what you wrote now. DD

> OK, that makes the most sense, being derived from the Tethys with
> variable amounts of precip. etc. I figure previous to the last glacial
> melt, both seas were getting pretty saline and low, though some fresh &
> brackish waters around the inlets.

 D "nickname" D:
 Hmm. I see that I'd better reply to your last posting in detail.
 FWIW, the Tethys Sea ceased to exist long before humans
began to exist, in fact before the age of earliest ape fossils
around the Mediterranean Sea, IIRC, certainly more than
5 million years ago .

<BEGIN QUOTE>
Daryl, in a nutshell, would this be right?
About 8ka, a big glacial lake in Canada broke thru a dam and flushed
the gulf stream chilling west coast of Europe, approximately the same
time the Caspian was flooding into the Black due to glacial melt,
causing the Black to overflow into the Mediterranean... however both
the Black and Medit. were about the same surface level, so due to
tectonic and hydrological actions (Canadian lake flush) occasionally
Medit. waters moved back into the Black.
If the above is true, then my question is, previous to the glacial
melt, was the Black a saline sea or freshwater or like the Caspian (1/3

salinity of Ocean).   DD
<END QUOTE>

 Hokay, more or less, but not quite exactly right.
 Here's a simplistic version of the Black Sea's recent history:
Alan Kellogg - 14 May 2006 00:39 GMT
> > Raja is male, Rana is female AFAIK. DD
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that 'raj' is 6000-8000 years old, an era so full of changes I dont
> think it can be nailed down more precisely.

So as Raj that means Queen Victoria was a witch. Considering her
temperament and personality it makes sense. :)
Day Brown - 14 May 2006 03:56 GMT
>>>Raja is male, Rana is female AFAIK. DD
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> So as Raj that means Queen Victoria was a witch. Considering her
> temperament and personality it makes sense. :)
You betcha. Lotsa them witches were bitches. I think the model is still
in production.
nickname - 21 May 2006 19:59 GMT
Day, some odd notes here:
Parlo Italiano? Earth mother artifacts in Turkmenistan 5ka
[newton.corriere.it] (italian)
"Unknown until a few years ago, one of the greatest centers of the
ancient world, anticipating the route of the silk road but 2000 years
earlier. The civilization of the Magi emerges from the desert in the
diggings.
[www.alfredolissoni.com] (italian) Two statues that "prove" an ancient
myth
[hommefemme.joueb.com] Goddess-mother with Adji Kui in Turkménistan
Translate [babelfish.altavista.com]

[www.limina.arts.uwa.edu.au]  Navajo linked to Tarim, Tibet
Mulligan et al "Population Genetics, History, and Health Patterns in
Native Americans" Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics. 2004,
5:295-313, (especially pp.301-302.) on basis of DNA they pinpointed in
2004 the same region in East-Central Asia. [DD: I thought farther
north, Altaic region.  Tarim, IIRC area where the blonde & red haired
mummies were found, on Silk road, Kucha and Tocharian tablets, north of
the Kunlun shan mountains, huge desert bowl west of Gobi desrt, place
where Lop Nur salt sea vanishes into the sand. Some coastal California
native tribes are Dene.]

"historian Ethel Stewart (1904-2002) suggested more recent Asian
origins for some American Indian languages and religions. Xi-Xia, a
Northeast Tibetan kingdom, fell to Genghis Khan in 1227. Orthodox
history maintains that the men were slaughtered and the women enslaved.
Stewart, however, argued that the warriors of Xia may have fled to
America after the conflict. On the basis of similarities she identified
in historical and oral traditions, Stewart believed that these warriors
were responsible for the introduction of the Athabascan languages to
the continent, sometime after the thirteenth century, making them
relatively new to America. Stewart's views are supported by material
evidence of continuous Asian influence in North America, and by
linguistic evidence of a link between Athabascan and Central Asian
peoples. Linguist Edward Sapir, for example, noting similarity between
Tibetan and Athabascan languages, joined them under one phylum.
Supplementing Stewart's work, this article presents evidence
overlooked by Stewart in the field of comparative linguistics, and in
comparative studies of Asian and Athabascan ceremonies. Here, I will
demonstrate that the nine-day sandpainting rites of Tibetans and
Athabascan Navajo share colours, symbols, rules, and names, pointing to
the adoption of both systems within the past millennium. I will discuss
linguistic similarities that point to a connection between Xia-Tibetan
and Athabascan. Also, I will compare symbolism within Navajo and
Tibetan cosmology, ....."
Day Brown - 21 May 2006 21:16 GMT
Native American traditions are beyond my ken; but I have read of a
skeleton found in England which analysis of the bones showed had grown
up along the mediterranean. RG Wasson, in Persephone's Quest shows us
some of the same mushroom iconography Gimbutas does that is from Old
Slavic Europe, 7000 years ago, and then shows us some cliff art of the
same sacred mushrooms from an artic river valley about 500 mi from the
Bearing Strait...2000 BP. The Amanita Muscaria does not now, nor did it
then exist that far north; it requires arboreal forest, not tundra.

We have the reports of expiditions like Shackleford's of men crossing
great distances, so there's no reason to think that the Xia, or whoever,
could not have made it to the new world. Then too, we have the example
of Pappillion, who washed up on a South American river that emptied into
the Carribean, who was cared for by the primitive tribe at the
instruction of the chief... who saw his tattoo of a butterfly, and
wanted that rather than the dude's head on a stick.

Even just a single man, (Kennewick?) bringing in some new art or craft,
can have a powerful cultural impact that lasts for generations.

I saw a documentary of monks making a sand painting mandala; which,
after it was complete, they calmly swept into the wastebasket. which,
was spozed to remind us of the temporary nature of things. But- the
*video* still remains, as it may for millennia.

There's a lot more than 'two statues' to support the accepted concept of
the divine as female, going all the way back west to Chalcolithic Slavic
Europe, East to the Tocharians, and South to Bengal, where Kali is still
worshiped to this day. While certainly the practice is syncretic with
indigeneous Indian traditions, it can be traced back to the Magi in many
ways. For instance, Bengalese St. Ramprasad uses the mantra "Kali-me,
Kali-my, ma-Kali" all the time. In Tocharian, "Kalimy" = "everywhere".

Hopefully, the DNA will show if there is a link between the Xia and the
Amerinds, as I am certain it will show links between Bengal and Central
Asia, and thence back to old Slavic Europe.

I spoze I should make a collection of all these links, where Amazons
were found, the stylistic evolution of goddess figures, the nomenclature
of power words with female suffixes and so on to challenge the debunkers
of goddess myth and ancient matriarchy. But even when I post the *text*
from the Tocharians indicative of matriarchy, twits ignore that and try
to pick at some less well supported triviality.

Those who are open minded will look into reports like you have, and
those who are not, wont. I dont have a mandate to convert the world, so
I dont get my panties in a wad over it.
nickname - 23 May 2006 21:27 GMT
Here's another buried city in the taklamakan, caucasians in China, near
Kucha?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-05/22/content_597113.htm
The Uygurs of Yutian County, 300 kilometers south of the ancient city,
call the area where the ancient city was found "Youmulakekum", meaning
"round sand", leading the archaeologists to name the ancient city "The
Old City of Round Sand". But unlike the other ancient cities discovered
in the area, the Round Sand city can not be found in any historical
documents.
Archaeologists discovered more than 20 tombs in the areas around the
city, only three of which remained intact. In one of the tombs, the
bodies of two males, sporting pigtails and wigs, were found facing each
other. In two others, a man and a woman were found in each.

French archaeologists said the corpses dated back 2,100 years according
to C14 dating, and the four people belonged to the Caucasoid group of
the Caucasian race. However, they could not explain where the people
were from. Generally speaking, the Caucasoid group mainly live in
Europe, West Asia and northern Africa. The people wore woolen fabric
and leather clothes. They also had ornaments on their clothes, which
were made of wolf hide and some of them had ornaments on hats and
waistbands. One woman was wearing a red agate ornament around her neck
and leather gloves and ornaments made of shell.

The findings show that these people were skillful in textiles, and they
used wool from sheep and camels to make clothes, said Corinne Debaine
Francfort, a French scholar who participated in the excavation. The
people could dye wool into bright red, yellow, blue, purple, black,
white and coffee by using dyestuff from plants, minerals and even from
insects, said Francfort.

The Round Sand city could have been a place where goods from west and
east were traded, said Francfort, saying "Agate ornaments could have
come from the West and shell ornaments from the East." Archaeologists
also found skeletons of many animals which, according to
archaeologists, show that the animal husbandry, fishery and hunting
were very important parts of the lives of the people.

Irrigation ditches were also found in the areas around the city ruins,
which show Round Sand people had developed irrigated farming, said
French archaeologist Henri Paul Francfort, adding that they also found
traces of wheat and millet, many different-sized saddle-shaped
millstones and numerous caches for storing grain inside the city. The
residential areas were located in the northern part of the Round Sand
city. "Almost all the things in the city were made from poplar trees,
including the city walls, city gates, houses and tombs, and also the
daily necessities such as wooden barrels, bowls and combs," said
Abdurensule. "They also used poplar tree branches to cook meals and
produce heating during winter. However, not a single poplar tree can be
found in the area today." Archaeologists did not find any trace of
written materials, symbols or anything that could tell the history of
the city. Based on analysis of satellite pictures and on-the-spot
investigations, archaeologists found that the Round Sand area used to
be covered by many rivers and thick forest, a home to 98 kinds of wild
vertebrate, said Ma Ming, a research fellow with the Xinjiang
Ecological and Geological Research Institute of the Chinese Academy of
Sciences.  As for the reason behind the city's disappearance,
Abdurensule explained that the Keriya River had retreated gradually due
to the expansion of desert and the local environment had deteriorated
due to the excessive felling of trees. The people had to move to other
places to survive.
Day Brown - 26 May 2006 20:48 GMT
> Here's another buried city in the taklamakan, caucasians in China, near
> Kucha?
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> due to the excessive felling of trees. The people had to move to other
> places to survive.

I saw a piece on TV last week on "Djumbalakhum" which brought me no
hits, possibly because of the spelling, a transliteration of a native
name for a town like this, where the river had moved over- altho they
said this was caused by a flash flood gouging out a new chennel some
miles away. C-14 2500 BP; otherwise very similar to the above. The video
showed irrigation ditches. White folks with fabrics of European style.

Youmalekum looks like its 100 mi south of Kucha. Musta been a miserable
place even in its hayday. The TV show gave me the idea that it was found
in the Western desert, say 200 miles WSW of Kucha.

I dont understand why people involved in trade would not have writing. I
can see however, that it may have been a trade secret among the merchant
class who therefore forbid its use in public to even let the illiterate
know about a secret weapon they used to control them.