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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / May 2006



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Four times out of Africa

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Erland Gadde - 17 May 2006 10:20 GMT
At least three times, prehistoric and modern human beings left Africa
and spread over the (old) world.

First, some millions years ago or so, some Homo Erectus left Africa and
colonized parts of Asia and Europe.

Some million years or so after that, some Homo Erectus that remained in
Africa developed into Neandertals, who left Africa for Europe and
Western Asia.

Some hundred thousands of years later or so, other Erectus descendants
in Africa developed into Homo Sapiens, who eventually colonized the
entire world.

It thus seems that all evolution took place in Africa. The prehistoric
humans that left Africa all became extinct. How can we explain this
preference for taking place in Africa that human evolution had, despite
that there were prehistoric humans at other continents too?

I also have some questions regarding the Neandertals and their
relations to Sapiens and Erectus. It is today believed that the
Neandertals weren't, as was commonly believed some decades ago,  a race
(or  subspecies) of Homo Sapiens, but that they constituted a species
of their own: Homo Neanderthalensis. This is because Neandertal genes
haven't been found in present human beings.

But still, the Neandertals must have been much closer related to us
than to Homo Erectus. Thus, there must have been a common ancestor of
Homo Sapiens and the Neandertals, who wasn't a Homo Erectus. But I have
never heard of such an ancestor. What about it?

And what about these fossils found in Steinheim and Swanscombe, which,
at least before, were called "Early Homo Sapiens"? Were they really
Homo Sapiens, and how were they related to the Neandertals?

There must actually have been a forth migration out of Africa of beings
closely related to humans. I am thinking of the ancestors of the
orangutans. The orangutans live in Borneo and Sumatra, despite that
it's closest relatives: gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, and humans all
live in Africa or, in the human case, descends from Africa. Therefore,
the common ancestor of all these species probably lived in Africa, so
the ancestors of the orangutan must have migrated from Africa to South
East Asia. This is confirmed by Ramapithecus, an extinct species of
which fossils were found in India, It was earlier believed to be an
ancestor of humans, but nowadays it is believed to be an ancestor of
the orangutans. This ancestor thus had made part of the journey from
Africa to South East Asia.

Erland Gadde
deowll - 18 May 2006 04:01 GMT
> At least three times, prehistoric and modern human beings left Africa
> and spread over the (old) world.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> preference for taking place in Africa that human evolution had, despite
> that there were prehistoric humans at other continents too?

Center of population density.

> I also have some questions regarding the Neandertals and their
> relations to Sapiens and Erectus. It is today believed that the
> Neandertals weren't, as was commonly believed some decades ago,  a race
> (or  subspecies) of Homo Sapiens, but that they constituted a species
> of their own: Homo Neanderthalensis. This is because Neandertal genes
> haven't been found in present human beings.

Most genes haven't been analized for this either.

> But still, the Neandertals must have been much closer related to us
> than to Homo Erectus. Thus, there must have been a common ancestor of
> Homo Sapiens and the Neandertals, who wasn't a Homo Erectus. But I have
> never heard of such an ancestor. What about it?

What about it? They aren't a complete mystery. Check out who lived in Europe
400,000 or so years ago. Take a look at the early finds in other parts of
Europe.

> And what about these fossils found in Steinheim and Swanscombe, which,
> at least before, were called "Early Homo Sapiens"? Were they really
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Erland Gadde

The orangutan is smart and about the right size but not a real close
relative compared to African apes.
Day Brown - 22 May 2006 03:41 GMT
I suspect that the mt Toba eruption, 70-74kbp is related to the
'bottleneck' reported in the hominid lines, and would have precluded
*any* large hominid population anywhere. And really complicated the
assessment of the evolution, there not being enough hominids at any one
place to know whether what was found was representative.

Has anyone seen a link on the effect of the Mt Toba eruption on the
Neandertals?
deowll - 22 May 2006 21:49 GMT
>I suspect that the mt Toba eruption, 70-74kbp is related to the
>'bottleneck' reported in the hominid lines, and would have precluded *any*
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Has anyone seen a link on the effect of the Mt Toba eruption on the
> Neandertals?

No to the last. Mt Toba didn't take out the Asian erectus population nor the
Hf population. A couple of years of really bad weather is about it in a lot
of places and one book I own claimed that it did a major number on the Hs
population in India which doesn't seem to match up to well with that being
the cause of the bottle neck that wasn't.

The dirty little secret is that every gene seems to have its own point of
origin and spread. The numbers will work with a bottle neck or better yet a
heck of a lot of them at different times but you bloody well don't really
need bottle necks and it is now very obvious that some Homo genes now
floating around in Hs didn't go through any such even event in Africa
because they left Africa long ago. There are bloody well some genes that
left Africa something like 1.9 million and 500,000 years ago among other
dates. Thus the title of the thread "Four Times out of Africa."

The bottle neck was between somebody's ears. There was no bloody way you
could make more than a WAG for a family tree based on mitochondra and they
should have known it.

I know a fair skinned blue eyed blond who is hauling around native American
mitochondra. Her several times great, great grand ma was a pure blooded
Cherokee. Any one who tried to base her line of descent on that is pretty
much pushing trash. It is most likely the only native American thing about
her.
Day Brown - 25 May 2006 05:53 GMT
>>I suspect that the mt Toba eruption, 70-74kbp is related to the
>>'bottleneck' reported in the hominid lines, and would have precluded *any*
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> much pushing trash. It is most likely the only native American thing about
> her.
Well genetics is a crap shoot; I dont think they'll ever sort it out.
Much of it is based on assumptions about the rate of mutation that I
dont know is all that stable in different ecosystems.
deowll - 25 May 2006 22:14 GMT
>>>I suspect that the mt Toba eruption, 70-74kbp is related to the
>>>'bottleneck' reported in the hominid lines, and would have precluded
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> of it is based on assumptions about the rate of mutation that I dont know
> is all that stable in different ecosystems.

It won't answer all questions. As they get better and more data is collected
its going to add a lot to the picture.
 
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