Book Review: Origins of Language: Constraints on Hypotheses by Sverker Johansson
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Robert Karl Stonjek - 09 Jun 2006 10:55 GMT Hypothetically Speaking W. Tecumseh Fitch Origins of Language: Constraints on Hypotheses. Sverker Johansson. xii + 345 pp. John Benjamins Publishing Co., 2005. $114.
After a long period of disrepute, the evolution of language has recently reemerged as an important focus of scientific discussion-a shift fueled both by exciting discoveries in paleoanthropology and by rapid progress in understanding the neural and genetic mechanisms involved in human language. The complexities of these domains combine to make the core questions of biolinguistics some of the most challenging scientific issues of our time: What is it about our brains that allows humans, but not other animals, to freely convey arbitrary thoughts to one another? What genes underlie these differences? How, and why, did the special neural mechanisms behind language evolve in our species?
Despite rapid progress and a growing consensus that such questions are scientifically answerable, major obstacles stand in the way of resolving these matters. These roadblocks include barriers to interdisciplinary communication (exemplified by the range of meanings workers in different spheres have attached to such words as language or symbol) and a pervasive tendency to propose oversimplified, single-cause hypotheses. These and other difficulties have made biolinguistics a highly contentious field, riddled with mutual misunderstandings.
Sverker Johansson, a physicist by training, comes into this area of study as an outsider, one who is attempting to gather together the many strands of data and theory relevant to the study of language evolution. His fresh, enthusiastic view and clear, pragmatic approach are what one might expect of a physicist. He lists the main problems and proposed solutions, briefly reviews the various sources of data and in conclusion fills in a 4 x 8 summary table with estimates of the likelihood of the various theoretical possibilities. I can't help admiring the approach, because most single-author books in this field defend the writer's own new solution to the problem of language evolution; few dispassionate surveys are available.
In his search for information, Johansson casts his net wide, and the voluminous selection of references presented (80 pages' worth, in small type) is, by itself, an impressive contribution. For anyone who believes there is little data relevant to theories of language evolution, this book will serve as a useful corrective.
The downside is a distinct trade-off between breadth and depth. Many of Johansson's reviews are lists, of the form "X said this, but Y said the opposite," giving little detailed critical analysis of either the disputes themselves or the types of investigation required to resolve them. The reference list is something of a hodgepodge, with popular books, journalists' summaries and unpublished Web documents receiving equal billing with peer-reviewed scholarly articles. Worse, data that have been thoroughly discredited are sometimes repeated uncritically, including some proposed fossil indicators of speech, such as the size of the hypoglossal canal (formally withdrawn by its originators). Given that such data figure quite prominently in Johansson's final judgment that speech must have arisen early in human evolution, these oversights end up being rather significant for the overall conclusions.
An example of the dangers of an uncritical attitude is Johansson's treatment of the "ape language" controversy, which provides a good lesson about how interdisciplinary misunderstandings and overblown rhetoric (on both sides) have almost hopelessly crippled this field of study. Relying heavily on popular books by ape-language researchers, Johansson concludes that apes have latent capacities for language that approach the abilities of modern humans. Quoting Sue Savage-Rumbaugh's question "Why are we afraid of apes with language?," Johansson asks, "Would not our world be richer if they did have minds and language?" Well, yes, it would be wonderful if apes (or dolphins, or dogs, for that matter) had language in a full human sense, so we could discuss with them their ideas, memories, feelings about life, and so on. But unfortunately we can't, because none of these species has, or can be trained to have, a language in anything like this rich sense-regardless of our hopes or fears. We should not discount the notable and important achievements of chimpanzees and other species; nor should we exaggerate their accomplishments and thus underestimate the evolutionary distance modern humans have traveled since our last common ancestor with chimpanzees. Chimpanzees certainly have important ingredients necessary for human language (for example, the ability to pair arbitrary signals with meanings), but they are still not discussing philosophy or even what they had for dinner yesterday. Although Johansson cites both sides of this debate, he comes down sharply on one side of it and unfortunately gives readers little basis for judging the scientific data for themselves. Such gaps make the book hard to recommend as an authoritative introduction to the field. A multi-authored volume such as Language Evolution, the recent survey edited by Morten H. Christiansen and Simon Kirby (Oxford University Press, 2003), would be a better option.
Another troubling aspect of Origins of Language is that Johansson sometimes appears to misunderstand hypotheses that he dismisses. A prominent example is the treatment of linguist Noam Chomsky, whose influential idea of an innate basis for the human capacity to acquire language is treated in a derogatory tone throughout the book. As with "ape language," Chomsky's hypothesis of a Language Acquisition Device has occasioned much controversy, and Johansson should have dispassionately reviewed the pros and cons of this idea rather than recycling the various misinterpretations of Chomsky perennially erected by his opponents: that language is "monolithic," that language couldn't have evolved and so on. Many of these misinterpretations have been recently and forcibly rejected by Chomsky himself, in papers that Johansson cites as "important"-so why continue to criticize him based on these misconceptions?
Various other interesting hypotheses receive similarly short shrift, including a possible link between the evolution of music and language, the "holistic protolanguage" theory that complex phonology might have preceded complex syntax, and the idea that language evolved first in the service of thought and was only later put to use for communication. Although each of these ideas has advantages and disadvantages, none of them is simply silly: Each makes testable predictions, and all deserve a more balanced and insightful treatment than they receive here. Thus at least some of the "constraints on hypotheses" presented in this book seem to result more from a failure of imagination than from rejection forced by current data.
Despite these criticisms, Johansson's book-the first book-length, single-authored attempt I know of to synthesize this fascinating and rapidly growing field-makes several important contributions. First, it offers a good overview of the many relevant strands of data-from fossils, from genes, from brain imaging, from animal communication. Although the quality of Johansson's reviews varies, the very attempt to synthesize these diverse scientific fields is admirable and useful, and the flaws stand as a challenge for future scholars to try to do better. More important, the basic scientific attitude embodied in the book-survey the hypotheses, survey the data and then combine them to exclude some hypotheses-is certainly the correct way forward for the field. It is rather surprising that no one has done it before, and anyone interested in entering the field of language evolution should look to this book for an overview of some of the important debates.
Full Text at American Scientist http://www.americanscientist.org/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/51928
Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek
Joachim Pense - 10 Jun 2006 09:02 GMT Robert Karl Stonjek posted this book review in two paleontology groups. I'd like to know the opinion of sci.lang participants on this.
------ Article by Robert Karl Stonjek follows ------------
Hypothetically Speaking W. Tecumseh Fitch Origins of Language: Constraints on Hypotheses. Sverker Johansson. xii + 345 pp. John Benjamins Publishing Co., 2005. $114.
After a long period of disrepute, the evolution of language has recently reemerged as an important focus of scientific discussion-a shift fueled both by exciting discoveries in paleoanthropology and by rapid progress in understanding the neural and genetic mechanisms involved in human language. The complexities of these domains combine to make the core questions of biolinguistics some of the most challenging scientific issues of our time: What is it about our brains that allows humans, but not other animals, to freely convey arbitrary thoughts to one another? What genes underlie these differences? How, and why, did the special neural mechanisms behind language evolve in our species?
Despite rapid progress and a growing consensus that such questions are scientifically answerable, major obstacles stand in the way of resolving these matters. These roadblocks include barriers to interdisciplinary communication (exemplified by the range of meanings workers in different spheres have attached to such words as language or symbol) and a pervasive tendency to propose oversimplified, single-cause hypotheses. These and other difficulties have made biolinguistics a highly contentious field, riddled with mutual misunderstandings.
Sverker Johansson, a physicist by training, comes into this area of study as an outsider, one who is attempting to gather together the many strands of data and theory relevant to the study of language evolution. His fresh, enthusiastic view and clear, pragmatic approach are what one might expect of a physicist. He lists the main problems and proposed solutions, briefly reviews the various sources of data and in conclusion fills in a 4 x 8 summary table with estimates of the likelihood of the various theoretical possibilities. I can't help admiring the approach, because most single-author books in this field defend the writer's own new solution to the problem of language evolution; few dispassionate surveys are available.
In his search for information, Johansson casts his net wide, and the voluminous selection of references presented (80 pages' worth, in small type) is, by itself, an impressive contribution. For anyone who believes there is little data relevant to theories of language evolution, this book will serve as a useful corrective.
The downside is a distinct trade-off between breadth and depth. Many of Johansson's reviews are lists, of the form "X said this, but Y said the opposite," giving little detailed critical analysis of either the disputes themselves or the types of investigation required to resolve them. The reference list is something of a hodgepodge, with popular books, journalists' summaries and unpublished Web documents receiving equal billing with peer-reviewed scholarly articles. Worse, data that have been thoroughly discredited are sometimes repeated uncritically, including some proposed fossil indicators of speech, such as the size of the hypoglossal canal (formally withdrawn by its originators). Given that such data figure quite prominently in Johansson's final judgment that speech must have arisen early in human evolution, these oversights end up being rather significant for the overall conclusions.
An example of the dangers of an uncritical attitude is Johansson's treatment of the "ape language" controversy, which provides a good lesson about how interdisciplinary misunderstandings and overblown rhetoric (on both sides) have almost hopelessly crippled this field of study. Relying heavily on popular books by ape-language researchers, Johansson concludes that apes have latent capacities for language that approach the abilities of modern humans. Quoting Sue Savage-Rumbaugh's question "Why are we afraid of apes with language?," Johansson asks, "Would not our world be richer if they did have minds and language?" Well, yes, it would be wonderful if apes (or dolphins, or dogs, for that matter) had language in a full human sense, so we could discuss with them their ideas, memories, feelings about life, and so on. But unfortunately we can't, because none of these species has, or can be trained to have, a language in anything like this rich sense-regardless of our hopes or fears. We should not discount the notable and important achievements of chimpanzees and other species; nor should we exaggerate their accomplishments and thus underestimate the evolutionary distance modern humans have traveled since our last common ancestor with chimpanzees. Chimpanzees certainly have important ingredients necessary for human language (for example, the ability to pair arbitrary signals with meanings), but they are still not discussing philosophy or even what they had for dinner yesterday. Although Johansson cites both sides of this debate, he comes down sharply on one side of it and unfortunately gives readers little basis for judging the scientific data for themselves. Such gaps make the book hard to recommend as an authoritative introduction to the field. A multi-authored volume such as Language Evolution, the recent survey edited by Morten H. Christiansen and Simon Kirby (Oxford University Press, 2003), would be a better option.
Another troubling aspect of Origins of Language is that Johansson sometimes appears to misunderstand hypotheses that he dismisses. A prominent example is the treatment of linguist Noam Chomsky, whose influential idea of an innate basis for the human capacity to acquire language is treated in a derogatory tone throughout the book. As with "ape language," Chomsky's hypothesis of a Language Acquisition Device has occasioned much controversy, and Johansson should have dispassionately reviewed the pros and cons of this idea rather than recycling the various misinterpretations of Chomsky perennially erected by his opponents: that language is "monolithic," that language couldn't have evolved and so on. Many of these misinterpretations have been recently and forcibly rejected by Chomsky himself, in papers that Johansson cites as "important"-so why continue to criticize him based on these misconceptions?
Various other interesting hypotheses receive similarly short shrift, including a possible link between the evolution of music and language, the "holistic protolanguage" theory that complex phonology might have preceded complex syntax, and the idea that language evolved first in the service of thought and was only later put to use for communication. Although each of these ideas has advantages and disadvantages, none of them is simply silly: Each makes testable predictions, and all deserve a more balanced and insightful treatment than they receive here. Thus at least some of the "constraints on hypotheses" presented in this book seem to result more from a failure of imagination than from rejection forced by current data.
Despite these criticisms, Johansson's book-the first book-length, single-authored attempt I know of to synthesize this fascinating and rapidly growing field-makes several important contributions. First, it offers a good overview of the many relevant strands of data-from fossils, from genes, from brain imaging, from animal communication. Although the quality of Johansson's reviews varies, the very attempt to synthesize these diverse scientific fields is admirable and useful, and the flaws stand as a challenge for future scholars to try to do better. More important, the basic scientific attitude embodied in the book-survey the hypotheses, survey the data and then combine them to exclude some hypotheses-is certainly the correct way forward for the field. It is rather surprising that no one has done it before, and anyone interested in entering the field of language evolution should look to this book for an overview of some of the important debates.
Full Text at American Scientist http://www.americanscientist.org/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/51928
Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek
John Wilkins - 10 Jun 2006 09:15 GMT > Robert Karl Stonjek posted this book review in two paleontology groups. I'd > like to know the opinion of sci.lang participants on this. The author is a friend - he says that Fitch made fair criticisms. I suggested there's now a need for a second edition :-)
> ------ Article by Robert Karl Stonjek follows ------------ > [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > Posted by > Robert Karl Stonjek
 Signature John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com "He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
Peter T. Daniels - 10 Jun 2006 13:22 GMT Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that he wrote it.
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
John Wilkins - 10 Jun 2006 13:47 GMT > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > he wrote it. From the bit you snipped:
> ------ Article by Robert Karl Stonjek follows ------------ > > Hypothetically Speaking > W. Tecumseh Fitch ****************
> Origins of Language: Constraints on Hypotheses. Sverker Johansson. xii + > 345 pp. John Benjamins Publishing Co., 2005. $114.
 Signature John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com "He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
Joachim Pense - 10 Jun 2006 22:31 GMT Am Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:47:26 +1000 schrieb John Wilkins:
>> Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that >> he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> Origins of Language: Constraints on Hypotheses. Sverker Johansson. xii + >> 345 pp. John Benjamins Publishing Co., 2005. $114. Thank you for the clarification. That was not clear to me either.
Joachim
Peter T. Daniels - 11 Jun 2006 00:36 GMT > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > > he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > "He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, > bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." And what are "W. Tecumseh Fitch"'s qualifications to review the book?
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
John Wilkins - 11 Jun 2006 01:58 GMT > > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > > > he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > And what are "W. Tecumseh Fitch"'s qualifications to review the book? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~wtsf/
 Signature John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com "He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
Peter T. Daniels - 11 Jun 2006 13:21 GMT > > > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > > > > he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > "He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, > bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious." Is there a reason the fact that he's a close associate of Chomsky was suppressed from the publication of the review?
And how did an American whose field appears to be evolutionary biology end up in Scotland?
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
John Wilkins - 11 Jun 2006 14:22 GMT > > > > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't > > > > > say that he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Is there a reason the fact that he's a close associate of Chomsky was > suppressed from the publication of the review? Does that matter? There are differences of opinion in any field, and people associate with proponents all the time. I'm sure that Fitch did an honest job of reviewing here, even if he and Johansson disagree on Chomsky.
> And how did an American whose field appears to be evolutionary biology > end up in Scotland? Maybe the academic freedom there is greater...
 Signature John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com "He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
H. E. Taylor - 11 Jun 2006 16:40 GMT > > > > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > > > > > he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > And how did an American whose field appears to be evolutionary biology > end up in Scotland? Peter, Peter, do you intend at any point to discuss the ideas of the book or are you going to continue to nibble around qualifications and personalities?
I know that discussing qualifications can be a relevant criteria in eliminating intellectual rot [see .sig], but you give the impression of one determined to avoid the subject.
<curious> -het
 Signature "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers." -Thomas Pynchon
How's yer crap detector? http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/detector.html H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/
Peter T. Daniels - 11 Jun 2006 22:15 GMT > > > > > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > > > > > > he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > <curious> I've never seen the book. From the review, it looks like it's not worth seeking out -- the reviewer doesn't indicate it makes any original contribution, and its copious bibliography jumbles together everything -- crackpottery, journalism, and serious work.
I'm quite happy with, e.g., Carstairs-McCarthy's overviews. Fitch's sometime collaborator Mark Hauser assembled an enormous book on animal communication as if animal communication were somehow relevant to the human neural structures that enable language.
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
H. E. Taylor - 12 Jun 2006 06:01 GMT > > > > > > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > > > > > > > he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > contribution, and its copious bibliography jumbles together everything > -- crackpottery, journalism, and serious work. Okay, fair enough.
> I'm quite happy with, e.g., Carstairs-McCarthy's overviews. Fitch's > sometime collaborator Mark Hauser assembled an enormous book on animal > communication as if animal communication were somehow relevant to the > human neural structures that enable language. And there are no open questions?
<fwiw> -het
 Signature "Education is an admirable thing. But it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught." -Oscar Wilde
Name your Poison: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/catastrophes.html H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/
Peter T. Daniels - 12 Jun 2006 14:29 GMT > > > > > > > > Who wrote the review? Saying that Mr. Stonjak posted it doesn't say that > > > > > > > > he wrote it. [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > <fwiw> This book doesn't seem to be the place to look for a discussion of them.
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Bobby D. Bryant - 11 Jun 2006 01:59 GMT > And what are "W. Tecumseh Fitch"'s qualifications to review the book? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~wtsf/
 Signature Bobby Bryant Austin, Texas
Franz Gnaedinger - 13 Jun 2006 10:35 GMT Joachim Pense quoted from a book review:
> An example of the dangers of an uncritical attitude is Johansson's > treatment of the "ape language" controversy, which provides a good lesson [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > meanings), but they are still not discussing philosophy or even what they > had for dinner yesterday. A major problem of linguistics, I believe, is the vantage point: we look at language from our human position, we understand early language in terms of modern language. We stand on top of a steep hill and look down on the marvellous crown of a big tree called evolution, life, or language. I propose another view. Instead of studying the leaves of the tree from above, I climb and slide down the steep slope and look at the tree from below, where I see a trunk and branches and twigs that are hidden for the viewers on top of the hill. In the case of paleolinguistics I don't apply phonetic rules, which are the equivalent of looking at the leaves from above, but propose 2-letter and 3-letter words and follow them along the arrow of time, in upward direction, from trunk to branch and twigs and leaves. This led me to four hypothetical laws of the language I call Magdalenian, a language that may have been spoken 15,000 years ago in the Guyenne, more generally in the Franco-Cantabrian space: 1) inverse forms have related meanings, 2) permutations of 3 letters yield words around the same meme, 3) D-forms are comparated in S-forms, and 4) important words can have lateral associations.
Now for language per se, for which I recommend the same shift of perspective: look at it from below, not always from above. Here you are with my definition of language from 1974 / 75:
Language is the means of getting help, support and understanding from those we depend upon in one way or another, and every means of getting help, support and understanding may be called language, on whatever level of life it occurs ...
Such a basic definition of language frees us from endlessly and tiresomly repeating that chimps don't talk about the meal they had last night, etc, but opens the mind to look at language in a free way that will be fertile and productive for all the fields involved. Genes can't exist on their own, they depend on each other (Richard Dawkins), so there must be some language involved. The "blind genes" need us, our "survival machines" (Dawkins), our body, our senses, our mind, so there must again be some language involved - language that goes both ways, from genes to us, from us to our genes (I have an example for the latter way, on request). Bacteria communicate, calling each other when they come across a yummy spot of grease in a sink, cells in a living tissue communicate by exchanging photons, ions and molecules, trees warn each other of certain insects by emitting a gas, bees convey the most detailed information about sources of pollen and nectar, primates communicate, we humans speak. We all are speaking and talking, just in different ways, as we are spending different lifes. The greatest work of art, our biosphere, is the creation of microbes, and I am sure they have ways of communicating. They have neither telephone nor cell phones nor fax machines nor Internet, they have other means that are also effective. No, microbia don't discuss philosophical problems, they are busy manintaing the biosphere so we feel cozy and have time to discuss philosophical stuff, and say silly things about animals who can't talk ...
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Peter T. Daniels - 13 Jun 2006 13:12 GMT > A major problem of linguistics, I believe, is the vantage point: > we look at language from our human position, we understand [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > around the same meme, 3) D-forms are comparated in S-forms, > and 4) important words can have lateral associations. You continue to refuse to explain why your Magdalenian invention, dating from a time when Proto-Afroasiatic, a perfectly normal human language, might have been being spoken not all that far away (in what is now the eastern Sahara), bears no relation to any human language.
It is exactly you "proposing" 2- and 3-letter "words" involving processes found in no human language (numbered 1 and 2 above -- I don't read past the first five or so lines of your bloviations, so I don't know what 3 and 4 refer to), and ascribing them to our recent ancestors not all that many generations back, that makes your "proposals" so ridiculous.
Not to mention total unawareness of the significance of redundancy for communication. Your "proposal" completely eliminates redundancy.
Oh, and has no phonology, morphology, or syntax.
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 14 Jun 2006 09:01 GMT > You continue to refuse to explain why your Magdalenian invention, dating > from a time when Proto-Afroasiatic, a perfectly normal human language, > might have been being spoken not all that far away (in what is now the > eastern Sahara), bears no relation to any human language. My Magdalenian bears relation to the some eight languages I learned. Proto-Afroasiatic is a reconstruction, just like Indo- European and Proto-IE and other such languages. Once again you ask me to give an explanation that requires plenty of lines, while you read only the first lines of my messages. I just have to answer with more than the few lines of your attention span.
Cold climates trigger inventions. Leonardo came close to the invention of the steam engine, not in sunny Florence but in foggy Milan, while the steam engine was actually invented in the still cooler if not colder England. The special feature of human language are words that name our human made things and classify the world in categories of our human made things. English in the time of Shakespeare had some 200,000 words, information technology alone created 200,000 more English words. Living in the cold north, unter the thumb of the Ice Age, triggered not only inventions of Stone Age technology but also new words and forms of language that, however, met with the Afro-Asiatic languages via Goebekli Tepe (11 600 - 9 500 BP). I don't see a language drift from the Sahara to Spain and the rest of Europe, in that you are right. The Ice Age glaciers of the Pyrennees were a barrier that separated the Franco- Cantabrian space from (southern) Spain and Africa. There might have been some contacts, though, but people crossing the Pyrenees would have adopted Magdalenian, as Philppines adopt English in America.
> It is exactly you "proposing" 2- and 3-letter "words" involving > processes found in no human language (numbered 1 and 2 above -- I don't > read past the first five or so lines of your bloviations, so I don't > know what 3 and 4 refer to), and ascribing them to our recent ancestors > not all that many generations back, that makes your "proposals" so > ridiculous. Not reading what I say surely allows you to judge my work. You are an editor, not a scientist, and it shows. My rules of Magdalenian are:
1) inverse forms have related meanings, for example CA for sky, and AC for an expanse of land with water
2) permutations of 3 letters yield words around the same meme, example given below
3) D-forms are comparated in S-forms, for example AD means toward, AS upward, LAD slope or hill, LAS cliff or mountain, AD LAS toward a mountain range, Eurasian plain oriented toward the Caucasus mountain range one of whose peaks must have been the shoulder or neck of Atlas, hence Atlantis. Eurasia is the only candidate for Atlantis, it has the required size, there were elephants, it is rich in metals, and so on
4) Important words have lateral associations, for example GYN for woman, GEN and permutations for the durations of six lunar phases: NEG for 3 or 2 days of the invisible moon, followed by 3 days of the young moon, 6 days for the waxing moon, 9 days for the full moon GEN, 6 days for the waning moon, 3 days for the old moon (sorry for not having present the missing words, permutations of the letters G and E and N, but you can look them up in my etymological thread in sci.lang)
> Not to mention total unawareness of the significance of redundancy for > communication. Your "proposal" completely eliminates redundancy. The genetic code uses permutations of 3-letter-words. How does it manage? There are mechanisms to prevent and eliminate mistakes. I claim the existence of similar mechanisms that kept Magdalenian understandable. I don't have all the answers beforehand, I just go on step by step, and as long as it is fun, and provides insights, I surley go on.
> Oh, and has no phonology, morphology, or syntax. Phonology - or should I say fonology, since you can't make any difference between ph and f ? - is no problem, just pronounce vowels the Roman / Italian way, not the English / American way (a is a, not ae, e is e, not i, i is i, not ay, o is o, not a coyote's howl, u is u, not a). Then there are some additional sounds, for example an L-click, ! L : curve your tongue, let the tip of the tongue stroke along the palate, and let the tongue smack into its wet bed:
! L O G --- the one who has the say
coming from ! L for the lion man (see the figurine from the Hohlenstein cave), the L is preserved in El, Baal, Eli, Allah, Lord, there is also an L-word for the supreme god of Saba, whose name eludes me for the time being, ancient Greek logos, English logic
G O ! L --- cavity of the mouth; Italian gola, French geuler for to shout (inferior). Goliath in the Bible stood with the entire Philistine army on top of one mountain, the entire army of Israel stood on the mountain across the valley, Goliath addressed them, and he didn't just whoop a war cry, no, he held a long speech, from mountain top to mountain top, so he certainly was a Big Mouth. As far as I know, kol or kool or so means to speak in Hebrew, so Magdalenian GO!L would have found its way into a Semitic language. As for the name of David that can't be explained, I can: DA PAD --- away from (DA, inverse of AD, see above) activity of feet (PAD, onomatopoetic, pad along, pad pad pad pad ...), here: delivered from the paw of the lion, delivered from the paw of the bear, delivered from the hand of Goliath
G ! L O --- utterances of a shaman in a trance; Greek glotta and glossa for tongue, English glossolaly
O ! L G --- sacred; Old English haleg and holeg for holy, German heilig for holy, while the female given name Olga comes from a Scandinavian word meaning holy (in this case the click explains the connection between haleg holeg heilig Olga, while nobody can explain me the origin of these words along phonetic laws)
Morphology and syntax come from alone, just experiment with those words. I wrote a dialog among two fishermen (in my Lascaux thread from last year, before Pentecost 2005), a summer song (soon after Pentecost 2005 in the same thread), a speech held by a young man who asks the parents of his girl for her hand (etymological thread in sci.lang), and gave the message conveyed by the composite animal near the entrance of the Lascaux cave
head of a bearded man, out of whose front grow a pair of lances, body of an animal, front legs and mottled hide of a feline, hind body and legs of a bison, belly of a pregnant mare: make a wise use of your weapons, be decided as a lion, strong as a bull, and caring as a mother
in Magdalenian. I needed just eight words, two for each commandement (etymological thread in sci.lang).
Magdalenian works, but you have to look at language from below. The old way of looking down on language from above came to limits. And just throwing around with classifications and categories and sticking labels to everything won't do.
Franz Gnaedinger
Peter T. Daniels - 14 Jun 2006 13:15 GMT > > You continue to refuse to explain why your Magdalenian invention, dating > > from a time when Proto-Afroasiatic, a perfectly normal human language, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > while you read only the first lines of my messages. I just have > to answer with more than the few lines of your attention span. No, within five to ten lines, you drift off the topic.
> Cold climates trigger inventions. Leonardo came close to > the invention of the steam engine, not in sunny Florence but > in foggy Milan, while the steam engine was actually invented > in the still cooler if not colder England. Leonardo is irrelevant.
> The special feature of > human language are words that name our human made things > and classify the world in categories of our human made things. No, the "special feature of human language" is not "words" at all. It is duality of patterning.
> English in the time of Shakespeare had some 200,000 words, > information technology alone created 200,000 more English [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the Pyrenees would have adopted Magdalenian, as Philppines > adopt English in America. They had the same ancestors. Their neural equipment was the same, hence their language worked on the same principles. Not your four nonsense "proposals."
> > It is exactly you "proposing" 2- and 3-letter "words" involving > > processes found in no human language (numbered 1 and 2 above -- I don't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 1) inverse forms have related meanings, for example > CA for sky, and AC for an expanse of land with water Not found in any human language
> 2) permutations of 3 letters yield words around the same > meme, example given below Not found in any human language, no matter how many examples you invent
> 3) D-forms are comparated in S-forms, for example AD > means toward, AS upward, LAD slope or hill, LAS cliff or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Atlantis, it has the required size, there were elephants, > it is rich in metals, and so on Not found in any human language -- phonological processes (lenition in this case) do not have semantic values.
> 4) Important words have lateral associations, for example > GYN for woman, GEN and permutations for the durations [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the letters G and E and N, but you can look them up in > my etymological thread in sci.lang) So you still don't know what "etymology" means. Your "lateral associations" of GYN and GEN are a possible sort of derivational morphology, but when you connect it with the "permutation" nonsense, you lose all coherence.
> > Not to mention total unawareness of the significance of redundancy for > > communication. Your "proposal" completely eliminates redundancy. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have all the answers beforehand, I just go on step by step, > and as long as it is fun, and provides insights, I surley go on. There are 64 possible 3-letter genetic words, yet they code only 20 amino acids. That's redundancy.
Next question?
> > Oh, and has no phonology, morphology, or syntax. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > curve your tongue, let the tip of the tongue stroke along > the palate, and let the tongue smack into its wet bed: So you don't know what "phonology" means, either.
(Ignoring the next four paragraphs)
> ! L O G --- the one who has the say > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Morphology and syntax come from alone, just experiment They "come from alone"? If you can't type English, how am I supposed to know what you mean?
> with those words. I wrote a dialog among two fishermen > (in my Lascaux thread from last year, before Pentecost [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > with classifications and categories and sticking labels > to everything won't do. Wow. You're as sophisticated as Zamenhof.
That is _not_ a compliment.
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 15 Jun 2006 08:22 GMT Peter T. Daniels, classifier and categorizer, with a license to label::
> irrelevant Saul Levin, Semitic and Indo-European : The Principal Etymologies : With Observations on Afro-Asiatic (Current Issues in Linguistic Theory, vol. 129, John Benjamin Amsterdam / Philadelphia 1995) believes that Indo-European and Semitic are intertwined - call him what you want, Peter T. Daniels, he is just a distinguished professor of the ancient languages, State University of New York Binghampton, while you are an editor with Gorgias, five levels above him and everybody else - and makes a model case of ancient Greek tauron, Latin taurum, Lithuanian taura, Arabic tawron -- a word for bull that is either an Indo-European loan from Semitic, or a Semitic loan from Indo-European, or a word going back to a prehistoric language.
It is widespread in European languages, so I told myself it may have a Magdalenian origin, TOR, close to Spanish and French, so I went for the six permutations of T-O-R, and here is what I found:
TOR --- noise, commotion, as caused by a bull; ancient Greek thoreo for I make noise, I disquiet (...), and all the words for bull mentioned above
ROT --- noises a bull makes; ancient Greek rhotheo for I rustle, make noise, grumble, roar
TRO --- to run; ancient Greek trocha(z)o for I run
ORT --- straight on, as a bull runs; ancient Greek orthos for straight on (...)
RTO --- the elegant way a running bull moves; ancient Greek rytos for streaming, fluently
OTR --- swift, nimble; ancient Greek otraleos and otraeros for swift, brisk, quick, nimble
Last year I proposed CA LUN for the moon bull; CA for sky, LUN for full moon. This year followed MUC for bull, a word that survives as Mockae in my medieval dialect and means something round and massive, especially an animal, also the opera singer Luciano Pavarotti can be called a Mockae.
Tauron etc. are Saul Levin's model case, but he comes up with many more cases. I picked out Semitic / Hebrew wolod for child, Russian molod for young, Arabic waladat for she has born, Latin mollis for soft, tender, and Arabic malida for he / it was soft, tender.
A Magdalenian origin would have been BOL:
BOL --- a newborn child, a small child; ancient Greek bolos for cast, throw, in German Wurf that also means litter, brood, perhaps also ancient Greek berphos for the young one, Hebrew wolod for child, Russian molod for young, Arabic waladat for she has born, Latin mollis for soft, tender, Arabic malida for he / it was soft, tender, Bolae in my medieval dialect for something round and soft, especially used for a toddler, min süesse Bolae, my sweet little round child
LOB --- a newborn sleeping, the deep sleep of a little child; ancient Greek lophaeo for I rest
OBL --- to increase a family and tribe; ancient Greek ophello for I increase
LBO --- to anoint a newborn child; ancient Greek lipoo and lipao for I shine of ointments
BLO --- to be born, to arrive; ancient Greek blosko for I arrive (...)
OLB --- luck, blessing, joy over a newborn child; ancient Greek olbos for luck, blessing, salvation, wealth, power (this word says how children must have been valued in prehistoric times)
So I dare say that we may look at a Magdalenian origin of both words. My method of pondering permutations on the Magdalenian level (15 000 BP) allows to retrieve more information from groups of words instead of just looking at single words. The largest group I found are DAI for camp, comparative SAI for life, existence, plus ten lateral associations, six permutations each, yielding a cluster of 72 (!) related words.
By the way: the Magdalenians didn't create a permutation group at once; first they used a word, then the inverse form was given a related meaning, then a permutation was given another related meaning, and so on.
As for the points mentioned by Peter T. Daniels: I gave my answers in previous replies to him, but he doesn't bother reading my messages, and if he does, on a rare occasion, he immediately forgets what I say, so I don't bother giving him all my answers again (and again, and again). I prefer using my time in a productive way.
Franz Gnaedinger
Christopher Culver - 15 Jun 2006 08:58 GMT > Saul Levin, Semitic and Indo-European : The Principal > Etymologies : With Observations on Afro-Asiatic > (Current Issues in Linguistic Theory, vol. 129, John > Benjamin Amsterdam / Philadelphia 1995) believes... Stop citing reputable scholars as if they would agree at all with your kookery. I'm sure in Prof Levin were here, he'd be ashamed of coming up in your posts and would try to disassociate himself from you as much as possible.
> he is just a distinguished professor of the ancient languages, State > University of New York Binghampton, while you are an editor with > Gorgias While you have no academic qualifications whatsoever. Pot calling the kettle black.
Christopher Culver
 Signature Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Franz Gnaedinger - 15 Jun 2006 11:13 GMT > Stop citing reputable scholars as if they would agree at all with your > kookery. I'm sure in Prof Levin were here, he'd be ashamed of coming > up in your posts and would try to disassociate himself from you as > much as possible. (...)
> While you have no academic qualifications whatsoever. Pot calling the > kettle black. > > Christopher Culver One would expect that someone who winds up in sci.lang is at least able to read. Did I say in any way that Saul Levin agrees on my views, or would agree if he were here? No, I did not say such a thing. I just repeat what he says: that Indo-European and Semitic are intertwined, and that he proposes many examples of analogies between Semitic and Indo-European words that are either loans from IE into Semitic, or vice versa, or descending from a common prehistoric language. Almost every new approach in today linguistics is being denied here in sci.lang, by the likes of Peter T. Daniels, by the killrating mob of sci.lang, and by those of your sort. You won't make it in the sciences. You are not born for the sciences. You may hope that enlightment will be bestowed on you when you get a PhD. But it won't happen. You will be stuck in a scientific carrier, and will find out when it is too late. The only pleasure you lot can find in academe are power games, a stale joy compared with the flow of making a scientific discovery. Better leave the university when you still can, and get a job somewhere else. You got enough arrogance to make money, so take that chance, and leave the sciences to those who got something to say.
Franz Gnaedinger
Peter T. Daniels - 15 Jun 2006 14:30 GMT > Peter T. Daniels, classifier and categorizer, with a license > to label:: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > - call him what you want, Peter T. Daniels, he is just > a distinguished professor of the ancient languages, He also happens to be a very nice (and very old) man, and a friend. That doesn't keep this book from being crap. See the reviews in *Language* of this volume by Gonzalo Rubio, and of vol. 2 by me.
What, however, do you imagine he has to do with the fact that I marked your reference to Leonardo as irrelevant?
> State University of New York Binghampton, while you > are an editor with Gorgias, five levels above him and Why do you have a problem with this?
You've never revealed what, if anything, _you_ do for a living.
> everybody else - and makes a model case of ancient > Greek tauron, Latin taurum, Lithuanian taura, Arabic > tawron -- a word for bull that is either an Indo-European > loan from Semitic, or a Semitic loan from Indo-European, > or a word going back to a prehistoric language. Yep, those are the possibilities. Coincidence seems unlikely in this case.
> It is widespread in European languages, so I told myself > it may have a Magdalenian origin, TOR, close to Spanish > and French, so I went for the six permutations of T-O-R, > and here is what I found: "Telling yourself" that is exactly the problem.
"Going for the six permutations" has nothing to do with any phenomenon found in iny human language, in particular the Modern Indo-European languages that seem to be the only ones you're familiar with.
[...]
Deleting all the repetitious crap, does it not even occur to you that Proto-Indo-European reconstructions, rather than Modern forms, would be more sensible targets for your nonsense?
For the sake of anyone who might be looking at this, Saul doesn't use Proto-Semitic or Proto-Indo-European, either. He compares Biblical Hebrew and Classical Arabic with Classical Greek and Classical Sanskrit (and almost no other languages). In vol. 2 he makes it somewhat clearer that he is not claiming genetic relationship between IE and Sem., but an extended period of contact and borrowing. (Without any hint of when or how Hebrew and Arabic would have been in contact with Greek and Sanskrit.) -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 16 Jun 2006 09:01 GMT > He also happens to be a very nice (and very old) man, and a friend. That > doesn't keep this book from being crap. Who needs enemies when he got you for a friend?
> Why do you have a problem with this? I have no problem with a scientist who earns a living as an editor. I have problems with an editor who let me believe he were with New York University while he isn't, who behaves as super-academician for compensation, walks around with a narrow frame of mind, obliges everyone to the same narrow views, judges a book without having much as seen let alone read it, and takes revenge on authors who got ideas and achieved a work of their own.
> For the sake of anyone who might be looking at this, Saul doesn't use > Proto-Semitic or Proto-Indo-European, either. He compares Biblical [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > how Hebrew and Arabic would have been in contact with Greek and > Sanskrit.) Hallmark of a scientist. He speaks where he can, and keeps quiet where he has no answer yet. Saul Levin couldn't possibly know about Goebekli Tepe, discovered in 1963, but excavated only from 1995 on, and very slowly, for Klaus Schmidt, another true scientist, proceeds most carefully. Goebekli Tepe in the (Sanli-)Urfa region in southeast Anatolia, just north of the Syrian Harran plain, now a moon-like region, in the Azilian period of time a paradise, lush meadows, game galore, was the center of a widespread culture, and, Klaus Schmidt believes, the origin of the Mesopotamian pantheon. I came to the conclusion that Goebekli Tepe also was the place where Magdalenian met with Afro-Asiatic - Magdalenian being itself a northern branch of an earlier level of Afro-Asiatic. I open Paul Levin's book from 1995 at random, and get confirmation for Magdalenian words I reconstructed my way. I postulated Magdalenian CA for sky, inverse AC for an expanse of land with water. Now I opened Levin's book at page 86, and found Latin ager, Greek agron, Vedic Sanskrit ajram, Gothic akr, Old English aecer and acre, German Acker, Akkadian eq-lam, Arabic Haqlan (sorry, Yusuf, for simplifying the notations), Aramaic Haeqael, Sumerian agar - and a Hebrew word of a similar build that must go back to a word of a pre-agricultural era. Wonderful. Marvellous! Tell Paul Levin that I like his book. Tell him that I can confirm his model case (tauron). Tell him that my medieval dialect (and Switzerland is part of the Magdalenian homeland, although it was mostly covered in ice) has Bolae or Bole for something round and soft, used as pet name for a toddler. Tell him that his time will come. Do that favor to an old man - if you you are a friend of his, as you claim to be. I got my introduction into linguistics as a teenager in the monastery cell of Pater Rupert Ruhstaller who kindly introduced me into his revolutionary grammar that uses functors and arguments and can be visualized by means of budding circles -- completely different from all we learnt in our classes. It took me a long time, and the interviewing skills of a TV woman, to realize how much I owe Pater Ruhstaller, and when I wanted to thank him it was already too late. I regret this very much, and now I compensate by asking you to tell your friend Saul Levin that his time will come, he didn't work in vain.
Franz Gnaedinger
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Jun 2006 13:18 GMT > > He also happens to be a very nice (and very old) man, and a friend. That > > doesn't keep this book from being crap. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > editor. I have problems with an editor who let me believe > he were with New York University while he isn't, who behaves IF YOU'RE GOING TO LIE ABOUT ME, I WILL HAVE NOTHING FURTHER TO DO WITH YOU.
I HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN IN AN NYU BUILDING IN ABOUT 2 YEARS (SINCE THE ILA MOVED ITS MEETINGS TO TEACHERS COLLEGE AT COLUMBIA AND TO JOHN JAY COLLEGE), AND I CERTAINLY NEVER CLAIMED ANY AFFILIATION WITH NYU.
AND I REPEAT, I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT YOU "BELIEVE," OTHER THAN THE NONSENSE YOU MAKE UP IN THE GUISE OF "MAGDALENIAN LANGUAGE."
> as super-academician for compensation, walks around with What "compensation" is that? The last four articles I've been asked to write carry no honorarium whatsoever.
> a narrow frame of mind, obliges everyone to the same narrow > views, judges a book without having much as seen let alone > read it, and takes revenge on authors who got ideas and > achieved a work of their own. No one needs to see any P.D. "decipherment" to know it is invalid.
> > For the sake of anyone who might be looking at this, Saul doesn't use > > Proto-Semitic or Proto-Indo-European, either. He compares Biblical [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > quiet where he has no answer yet. Saul Levin couldn't possibly > know about Goebekli Tepe, discovered in 1963, but excavated And why the bloody hell would one tiny site in Turkey have anything to do with Saul's comparisons of Classical Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, and Sanskrit?
Your G.T. obsession is like the Classicists who "knew" that the transmission of the alphabet to the Greeks took place at Al Mina -- because it happened to be a site that had been investigated dating to an appropriate era.
> only from 1995 on, and very slowly, for Klaus Schmidt, another > true scientist, proceeds most carefully. Goebekli Tepe in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with Afro-Asiatic - Magdalenian being itself a northern branch > of an earlier level of Afro-Asiatic. I open Paul Levin's book Funny, but your fantasies about "Magdalenian" reflect nothing but IE languages.
> from 1995 at random, and get confirmation for Magdalenian > words I reconstructed my way. I postulated Magdalenian CA [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Franz Gnaedinger
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 17 Jun 2006 07:45 GMT Ross MacFarlane: my reply to you follows below, first I have to deal with
Peter T. Daniels who shouted:
> IF YOU'RE GOING TO LIE ABOUT ME, I WILL HAVE NOTHING FURTHER TO DO WITH > YOU. > > I HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN IN AN NYU BUILDING IN ABOUT 2 YEARS (SINCE THE ILA > MOVED ITS MEETINGS TO TEACHERS COLLEGE AT COLUMBIA AND TO JOHN JAY > COLLEGE), AND I CERTAINLY NEVER CLAIMED ANY AFFILIATION WITH NYU. For all these years I believed you are teaching at a university, and recently I wrote that (quote from the memory) you had been studying (?) at the Oriental Institute of Wild Onion and are now teaching (?) at the university of the Big Apple (unquote). You didn't correct me. I always and immediately correct people when they believe that I am with a university, and address me as Dr. or professor (happens, mostly in e-mails and letters).
> AND I REPEAT, I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT YOU "BELIEVE," OTHER THAN > THE NONSENSE YOU MAKE UP IN THE GUISE OF "MAGDALENIAN LANGUAGE." As I said before, you are the Lord of Categories and Classifications, with a license to label.
---
Ross MacFarlane: this thread has well to do with paleo- biology, as it implies the question about the correct model of evolution. The mainstream of sci.lang believes that words are changing so much that we can't possibly know about words that have been spoken 15,000 years ago. I follow Nils Eldrege and Stephen Jay Gould who, relying on earlier authors, propose a model they call punctuated equilibrium (you know all this, but I repeat it for newbies in sci.lang): a new species arises in a relatively short period of time (punctuation of the equilibrium) and can then persist basicallly unchanged for eons (stasis). Phylae that have been separated for more than five-hundred-million years developed similar features. Darwins model would exclude such a possibility; mutations accumulated over such a long period of time would have resulted in very different features. Now I claim the same for the evolution of language: words can arise in a relativley short period of time, mostly going along with a cultural change, and then persist for very long periods of time, 15,000 years, 32,000 years, 75,000 years. I propose examples of such words. My explanation is that words are kept in place within what I call verbal morphospace (a loan from biology). Some keys words may be kept in place via onomatopoesis - a woman padding over the tiles of her bathroom and a Magdalenian woman padding over a wet rock of a river bank make the same sound -, while other words are kept in place by means of physiology - Homo erectus may have marked presence and communicated by means of humming sounds, and the humming Mm would survive in English and French, where we have the double form of ego in I and me, je and moi. Words are prone to drift easily and quickly, so there must be similar agents at work as in the case of biological stasis. I am interested in those mechanisms. and would appreciate if someone from sci.bio.paleontology could tell me about new insights in that field.
Thank you in advance
Franz Gnaedinger
ybg@theworld.com - 15 Jun 2006 16:29 GMT > Peter T. Daniels, classifier and categorizer, with a license > to label:: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Greek tauron, Latin taurum, Lithuanian taura, Arabic > tawron -- a word for bull that is either an Indo-European arabic *th*awr-un
PS * *th*awr-um
> loan from Semitic, or a Semitic loan from Indo-European, > or a word going back to a prehistoric language. Yusuf B Gursey - 15 Jun 2006 16:30 GMT > Peter T. Daniels, classifier and categorizer, with a license > to label:: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Greek tauron, Latin taurum, Lithuanian taura, Arabic > tawron -- a word for bull that is either an Indo-European arabic *th*awr-un
PS * *th*awr-um
> loan from Semitic, or a Semitic loan from Indo-European, > or a word going back to a prehistoric language. Daniel al-Autistiqui - 16 Jun 2006 18:39 GMT >As for the points mentioned by Peter T. Daniels: I gave my >answers in previous replies to him, but he doesn't bother >reading my messages, and if he does, on a rare occasion, >he immediately forgets what I say, so I don't bother giving >him all my answers again (and again, and again). I prefer Why did you say "rare"?
daniel mcgrath
 Signature Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.]
nickname - 17 Jun 2006 17:18 GMT I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In Arabic it is Dawood or Daud or so. Daud-m was used as a person's name in Ebla, of Canaanite/Sumerian heritage, long before the reign of "King David". There may or may not be a linguistic connection to Dewa/Deva in Hindu. DD
> > You continue to refuse to explain why your Magdalenian invention, dating > > from a time when Proto-Afroasiatic, a perfectly normal human language, [quoted text clipped - 145 lines] > > Franz Gnaedinger Yusuf B Gursey - 17 Jun 2006 23:47 GMT > I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from > Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In > Arabic it is Dawood or Daud or so. in arabic it has some irregualrities. the Qur'anic orthogrpahy is <da:wud> (I don;t knwo if there are some excpetions) but it is recited as da:wu:d (the comment madd "lengthrning is writen underneath, this is
quite unusual) and later people with that name tend to spell and use da:'u:d . as usual see Enc. of Islam II "Dawud"
and BTW diptote: da:wu:du
> Daud-m was used as a person's name in Ebla, of Canaanite/Sumerian > heritage, long before the reign of "King David". There may or may not > be a linguistic connection to Dewa/Deva in Hindu. DD me - 18 Jun 2006 14:40 GMT >> I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from >> Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In >> Arabic it is Dawood or Daud or so. > > in arabic it has some irregualrities. the Qur'anic orthogrpahy is > <da:wud> I presume that it must have been da:wi:d in the Syriac Peshitta Bible (since the names in the Malankara Orthodox Malayalam Bible are supposedly transliterated from the Syriac).
> (I don;t knwo if there are some excpetions) but it is recited > as da:wu:d (the comment madd "lengthrning is writen underneath, this is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> heritage, long before the reign of "King David". There may or may not >> be a linguistic connection to Dewa/Deva in Hindu. DD In the Illiad, dios can mean hero (rather than god).
Yusuf B Gursey - 18 Jun 2006 23:12 GMT > >> I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from > >> Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I presume that it must have been da:wi:d in the Syriac Peshitta Bible (since so in hebrew, in masoretic hebrew and aramaic [da:wi:*dh*]
> the names in the Malankara Orthodox Malayalam Bible are supposedly > transliterated from the Syriac). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > and BTW diptote: da:wu:du Franz Gnaedinger - 19 Jun 2006 08:35 GMT > I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from > Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In > Arabic it is Dawood or Daud or so. > Daud-m was used as a person's name in Ebla, of Canaanite/Sumerian > heritage, long before the reign of "King David". There may or may not > be a linguistic connection to Dewa/Deva in Hindu. DD The Eblaite ending -um indicates a nominative, so the actual name is Daud. Syllabic writing is notorious for abbreviations, consider Linear A pe-ma for sperma (seeds), so the name was closer to Arabic Da.wud (thanks, Yusuf) and goes along with my Magdalenian, or still older, Gravettian, Aurigniacian, DA PAD --- away from (da) acitivity of feet (pad), in the case of David in the Bible: delivered from the paw of the lion, delivered from the paw of the bear, delivered from the hand of Goliath. The sequence lion bear Goliath makes more sense when you go back in time, back to an era when the cave bear lived, a monster animal, larger than the brown bear of Canada. Recently I saw a life size reconstruction of a cave bear in the anthropological museum of the university of Zurich: truly frightening, especially when the beast rose on the hind legs. We have then an increase of danger and terror: from lion to cave bear to warrior, and three challenges, as in fairy tales, one more frightening than the previous one. The number 3, so common in fairy tales, indicates a totality of sorts and goes way back into prehistory. DA PAD may convey a Paleolithic saga of a hero who overcame first a lion, then a cave bear, and then, worst of all, a warrior, a man in arms, leader of a warrior tribe. The legend may survive in an archetypical name, Daudum, Da.wud, DVD David, while PAD alone became ancient Greek pous podos, Latin pedes, French pied, English foot, also to pad (along), and paw, French patte for paw, German Fuss for foot, and, I believe, also ancient Greek pataer, Latin pater, English father, German Vater, which word would then, originally, have meant: he who goes ahead, is leading us ...
Phonetic laws would never allow to get from Daudum to DA PAD, while you can easily get from DA PAD to Daud(), Da:wud, DVD David. Picture a fish trap: easy to get into, impossible to get out. We are somehow trapped into the recent languages, phonetical laws don't help us out, so my way of pondering very early words is by proposing a short word of one letter, of two or three letters, and following it along the arrow of time into the "cage" of the recent languages.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger
me - 19 Jun 2006 10:00 GMT >> I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from >> Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The Eblaite ending -um indicates a nominative, Does it? Did Eblaite have a case system with nominatives ending in "um"?
> so the actual name is Daud. Yusuf B Gursey - 19 Jun 2006 14:23 GMT > >> I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from > >> Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Does it? Did Eblaite have a case system with nominatives ending in "um"? sounds reasonable, as it is the Old Akkadian system and PS sysytem.
> > so the actual name is Daud. Peter T. Daniels - 19 Jun 2006 15:04 GMT > > I don't know about your invented language, but David is derived from > > Daud-m, (written as Daudum but not long u), similar to Ad-m, Ed-n. In [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > name is Daud. Syllabic writing is notorious for abbreviations, > consider Linear A pe-ma for sperma (seeds), so the name Presumably you meant Linear B.
The syllabograms of Linear B are an entirely different system from the Mesopotamian cuneiform of Eblaite: cuneiform includes VC and CVC signs, so has no difficulty recording consonant clusters.
> was closer to Arabic Da.wud (thanks, Yusuf) and [snipping egotistical nonsense]
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 20 Jun 2006 07:12 GMT me: yes, the Eblaite ending -um indicates a nominative. Look up the four volumes of Eblaitica published so far, edited by Cyrus H. Gordon et al., 1987 - 2002. You may consider the Syrian region called mu-nu-ti-um in Eblaite (Gordon), mi-nu-te (Gordon) or mi-nu-the (Walther Hinz) in Linear A Minoan (yes, Linear A, not B), mnt in Ugaritic (Gordon), Minnit in the Bible, Ezekiel (Gordon or Hinz). The Eblaite version is ending on -um, mu-nu-ti-um.
> Presumably you meant Linear B. Yes, of course, pe-ma for sperma in the sense of seeds. I checked my message five times before posting it, and realized that mistake only when I read my message online. My attention is usually focused on the new aspect of my messages, in the previous message it was DA PAD David as hypothetical archetypical name referring to a Paleolithic saga or legend or pantomime, whatever.
> [snipping egotistical nonsense] What exactly is egotistical about my work? having ideas and sharing them? following ideas of mine instead of living in the prison of your categories and classifications? Also you could be free. Just walk through the walls. They are imaginary walls. They don't exist.
Franz Gnaedinger
Peter T. Daniels - 20 Jun 2006 13:18 GMT > me: yes, the Eblaite ending -um indicates a nominative. > Look up the four volumes of Eblaitica published so far, There are no further volumes of Eblaitica; Cyrus Gordon died several years ago, and the books didn't sell anyway, because his interpretation of Eblaite was idiosyncratic and out of touch with recent scholarship. Michael Astour's long reconstruction of the history of Ebla is interesting but has not made much of an impact. Jay Gelb, who lived only through the first decade of Ebla studies, was almost preternaturally prophetic in his insights, which are now adopted by the mainstream.
> edited by Cyrus H. Gordon et al., 1987 - 2002. You may > consider the Syrian region called mu-nu-ti-um in Eblaite [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Also you could be free. Just walk through the walls. > They are imaginary walls. They don't exist. You don't consider cyclically posting hundreds of messages that no one pays any attention to whatsoever, repeating them ad infinitum, egotistical?
And then injecting your fantasies about a "language" that operates by "permutations of letters" into other discussions?
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 21 Jun 2006 07:48 GMT > There are no further volumes of Eblaitica; Cyrus Gordon died several > years ago, and the books didn't sell anyway, because his interpretation [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > through the first decade of Ebla studies, was almost preternaturally > prophetic in his insights, which are now adopted by the mainstream. How can you say that no more volumes of Eblaitica will be published? How can you foresee the future of the Center of Ebla Research at New York University? What I can tell is that Ebla will be of growing importance for our understanding of the Ancient Near East, as it plays a key role between Goebekli Tepe and Harran in the northeast, Israel, Judah, perhaps Saba, and certainly Egypt in the south, and Minoan Crete in the west. Ebla keeps a memory of Goebekli Tepe. The Syrian region called mu-nu-ti-um in Eblaite, mi-nu-the in Linear A Minoan, mnt in Ugaritic, and Minnit in the Bible (Ezekiel), belonging to the empire of Ebla, was most probably the origin of the Minoans. The Hyksos were presumably Syrians. Eblaite became Aramaic. So how can you say that no more volumes of Eblaitica will be published by the Center of Ebla Research at NYU ? And once again you are turning down Cyrus H. Gordon, a renowned scholar who achieved a work of his own. As you are turning down other scholars who achieved a work of their own. Envy? I guess it must be envy.
> You don't consider cyclically posting hundreds of messages that no one > pays any attention to whatsoever, repeating them ad infinitum, > egotistical? How many times did I tell you that I don't write for you (nor the killrating mob of sci.lang) but for interested young people who may find my messages in an archive?
> And then injecting your fantasies about a "language" that operates by > "permutations of letters" into other discussions? The difference between you and a scientist is that you are cocksure about your opinions, while scientists question their opinions, even their basic opinions, which brings them further.
Franz Gnaedinger
Peter T. Daniels - 21 Jun 2006 14:12 GMT > > There are no further volumes of Eblaitica; Cyrus Gordon died several > > years ago, and the books didn't sell anyway, because his interpretation [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > How can you say that no more volumes of Eblaitica will > be published? Because the publisher is a good friend of mine.
> How can you foresee the future of the Center > of Ebla Research at New York University? It does not exist. It was an office that Cyrus retired from Brandeis to, and with or before his death, it ceased to exist.
> What I can tell is > that Ebla will be of growing importance for our understanding > of the Ancient Near East, Duh. You clearly have not paid any attention to 30 years of Ebla research.
> as it plays a key role between > Goebekli Tepe You have some textual references to this insignificant village that, according to your descriptions, was occupied more than 10,000 years earlier than Ebla?
> and Harran in the northeast, Israel, Judah, > perhaps Saba, and certainly Egypt in the south, and Minoan > Crete in the west. Ebla keeps a memory of Goebekli Tepe. Do you have the slightest idea when Ebla was inhabited, or when the other locations you mention were in existence?
> The Syrian region called mu-nu-ti-um in Eblaite, mi-nu-the > in Linear A Minoan, mnt in Ugaritic, and Minnit in the Bible > (Ezekiel), belonging to the empire of Ebla, was most probably > the origin of the Minoans. The Hyksos were presumably Syrians. Do you have the slightest idea _when_ any of those references refer to?
> Eblaite became Aramaic. Where are you getting this bullshit?????
> So how can you say that no more > volumes of Eblaitica will be published Because my, and its, publisher is a good friend of mine (at the last several academic meetings where he's had a book table, he's been trying to get rid of the remaining copies at $5 apiece, and no one seems interested).
> by the Center of Ebla > Research at NYU ? Because there is no such thing.
> And once again you are turning down > Cyrus H. Gordon, a renowned scholar who achieved a work > of his own. As you are turning down other scholars who > achieved a work of their own. Envy? I guess it must be envy. I don't know what you mean by "achieved a work of his own," but see any obituary of Cyrus Gordon for a discussion of his ambivalent status in the scholarly world. His grammar of Ugaritic was the standard for 30 years (going through four editions), and he was a pioneer in pointing out Eastern influences on Classical civilization, but he was also a credulous, not to say gullible, advocate of the silliest nonsense about pre-Columbian "Semitic" inscriptions in the Americas. Moreover, he was a biblical fundamentalist, which is why (the nominally Jewish) Brandeis University, where he spent most of his career, attracted many fundamentalist Christian students of Bible and the ancient Near East.
> > You don't consider cyclically posting hundreds of messages that no one > > pays any attention to whatsoever, repeating them ad infinitum, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (nor the killrating mob of sci.lang) but for interested young > people who may find my messages in an archive? You expect to find them in the future? Why wouldn't they exist in the present?
> > And then injecting your fantasies about a "language" that operates by > > "permutations of letters" into other discussions? > > The difference between you and a scientist is that you are > cocksure about your opinions, while scientists question their > opinions, even their basic opinions, which brings them further. The nature of human language not involving "permutations of letters" is not an opinion of mine. (Or of anyone else. It's simply a fact.)
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 21 Jun 2006 18:28 GMT Peter T. Daniels replied to me:
> > How can you say that no more volumes of Eblaitica will > > be published? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It does not exist. It was an office that Cyrus retired from Brandeis to, > and with or before his death, it ceased to exist. How sad. So I shall write volume 5 of that series. Here, on Usenet. In sci.lang.
> Duh. You clearly have not paid any attention to 30 years of Ebla > research. No, not until two years ago.
> You have some textual references to this insignificant village that, > according to your descriptions, was occupied more than 10,000 years > earlier than Ebla? Insignificant is the key word here; only, I am afraid to say, your comment is insignificant, not Goebekli Tepe.
> Do you have the slightest idea when Ebla was inhabited, or when the > other locations you mention were in existence? Ebla was a small village in 5 500 BP, and the rest you can find in those four volumes of Eblaitica, and in archaeology books, of course.
> Do you have the slightest idea _when_ any of those references refer to? Yes.
> Where are you getting this bullshit?????
>From an article in one volume of Eblaitica, as I recall. Aramaic is the heir of Eblaite.
> Because my, and its, publisher is a good friend of mine (at the last > several academic meetings where he's had a book table, he's been trying > to get rid of the remaining copies at $5 apiece, and no one seems > interested). Poor publisher. You say you are a friend of Saul Levin's and call his book from 1995 "crap." Now you tell me that the publisher of the Eblaitica is a _good_ friend of yours, so what do you call those four books? a comparative form of crap? what would that be, then?
Besides, I'd always buy those copies for five bucks apiece.
> Because there is no such thing. The four volumes of Eblaitica have been published by the Center of Ebla Research at New York University. And even if that center was just an office, it was a center of sorts, a meeting point, and even if the office should have ceased to exist, and although Cyrus H. Gordon died in 2001, the other scholars who participated in the four volumes of Eblaitica still exist and live (at least I hope they do). May I thank them here for their inspiring work? Thank you very much indeed.
> I don't know what you mean by "achieved a work of his own," but see any > obituary of Cyrus Gordon for a discussion of his ambivalent status in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > University, where he spent most of his career, attracted many > fundamentalist Christian students of Bible and the ancient Near East. Count me among the admirers of Cyrus H. Gordon. I jes' don' k'yer noth'n 'bout catgories & classerfications & labels & status & reviews n'stuff, all I care for are good ideas and careful work along new ideas. Isaac Newton wrote 20,000 pages on astrology and related topics, doesn't disqualify his great work as a mathematician and physicist. And he wrote perhaps the most beautiful metaphor on the sciences: he felt just like a boy playing on the shore, where he found a couple of pretty pebbles, yet there are plenty more equally pretty pebbles on that shore (only he said it better).
> You expect to find them in the future? Why wouldn't they exist in the > present? My astrologer told me by the end of the 1990s that I am a hopeless case, nobody will be interested in my work, not until around 2011 or 2012, when two young people will stumble on some of my papers or publications. I am writing for them. And although I invented my astrologer (the only way to cope with astrological nonsense is humor, I found), her advice is very good.
> The nature of human language not involving "permutations of letters" is > not an opinion of mine. (Or of anyone else. It's simply a fact.) Doesn't language involve permutations? meter and metre are different things. Words are permutations of letters, only that our words are long enough so that we don't have to consider all the possible permutations. Things are different when you ponder the possibilites of a language that makes do with words of one letter, two or three letters. The scientific way of proceeding is to form a hypothesis, and then to follow it and see how far one gets. For newbies in sci.lang: Sir Karl Popper did not only ask for testable and falsifiable theses, but also for daring ones - the more daring the better.
Franz Gnaedinger
Peter T. Daniels - 21 Jun 2006 19:18 GMT > Peter T. Daniels replied to me: > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > find in those four volumes of Eblaitica, and in archaeology > books, of course. You're only about 1500 years off.
> > Do you have the slightest idea _when_ any of those references refer to? > > Yes. Obviously not.
> > Where are you getting this bullshit????? > > >From an article in one volume of Eblaitica, as I recall. > Aramaic is the heir of Eblaite. I repeat: Where are you getting this bullshit? There is no doubt whatsoever that Aramaic is a West Semitic language.
> > Because my, and its, publisher is a good friend of mine (at the last > > several academic meetings where he's had a book table, he's been trying [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Besides, I'd always buy those copies for five bucks > apiece. They've certainly been advertising them long enough.
> > Because there is no such thing. > > The four volumes of Eblaitica have been published > by the Center of Ebla Research at New York University. No, they were published by Eisenbrauns, in Winona Lake, Indiana.
> And even if that center was just an office, it was a center > of sorts, a meeting point, and even if the office should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they do). May I thank them here for their inspiring work? > Thank you very much indeed. Michael Astour died at a similarly advanced age shortly thereafter.
Gary Rendsburg is now a professor of Jewish Studies at Rutgers, a few miles down the pike from here (I see him every so often at the Columbia Seminars).
I don't remember who else was published there -- I didn't need to acquire vol. 3, because Astour gave me an offprint of the second half of his monograph, which is almost the entire volume, and I didn't find anything of interest in vol. 4.
> > I don't know what you mean by "achieved a work of his own," but see any > > obituary of Cyrus Gordon for a discussion of his ambivalent status in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > & status & reviews n'stuff, all I care for are good ideas and > careful work along new ideas. Really? Evaluate *Before Columbus* for us.
> Isaac Newton wrote 20,000 > pages on astrology and related topics, doesn't disqualify [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Doesn't language involve permutations? meter and metre > are different things. No, they are not. They are variant spellings of the same word.
> Words are permutations of letters, No, they are not.
> only that our words are long enough so that we don't have > to consider all the possible permutations. Things are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > falsifiable theses, but also for daring ones - the more daring > the better. There is no such thing as "a language that makes do with words of one letter, two or three letters."
 Signature Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
Franz Gnaedinger - 22 Jun 2006 10:44 GMT > You're only about 1500 years off. No, I am not, the earliest settlement of Ebla dates back to 5 500 BP.
> Obviously not. I certainly do.
> I repeat: Where are you getting this bullshit? There is no doubt > whatsoever that Aramaic is a West Semitic language. And what is Eblaite?
> They've certainly been advertising them long enough. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > his monograph, which is almost the entire volume, and I didn't find > anything of interest in vol. 4. I do find a lot of interest in volume 4, and I am determined to begin volume 5 here in sci.lang. May I propose the following topic for volume 5? Where exactly was mu-nu-ti-um (Eblaite) mi-nu-the (Linear A) mnt (Ugaritic) ? Cyrus H. Gordon identified it as a region in Syria. As far as I know it must have belonged to the empire of Ebla. The Linear A version is of great interest for me, as mi-nu-the is given by the following signs: head of a bull (mi), visual pun of an abstract bull-leaper on the feet hands feet (nu), a Tree of Life (the). The ceremonial Minoan bull-leaping, I found, refers to the moon passing the sun, the lunar phase called 'Leermond' (empty moon) in German. Mi-nu-the is then a reference to Baal as the golden calf, as the morning sun in company of the moon (sun and empty moon are in conjunction) rising from the Tree of Life. Mi-nu-the is close to Minos, and so I assume that the Minoans came from the Syrian region called mu-nu-ti-um. Any hints at where that region was? I guess in northern Syria, where a calendar sanctuary of the following form existed: in the center a Tree of Life (a fig tree), surrounded by 12 poles, four of them marking the cardinal directions, the other ones the intermittent 30-degree angles. Each pole represented a period of 30 days. A year of Ebla had 12 months plus an intercalary period. I guess a month had 30 days, and the intercalary period 5 and occasionally 6 days. While 63 continuous periods of 30 days yield 1,890 days and equal 64 lunations. The center of the region of mu-nu-ti-um must have been either in a flat river plain with a level horizon, or on a hill with a level horizon, so that the morning and evening width of the rising and setting midsummer and midwinter sun was 30 degrees each, the one of the rising and setting sun on the equinoxes zero degrees. It also must have been a region with enough water, since the finest wheat imported by the Minoans came from there (Linear A tablet Hagia Triada as translated by Walther Hinz), while the drier direct surroundings of Tell Mardukh (Ebla) was famous for sheep whool. Ezekiel in the Bible mentions Minnit as a trading place; another piece of information on mu-nu-ti-um. Furthermore it may stand in the tradition of Goebekli Tepe, as mu- of mu-nu-ti-um may refer to Magdalenian MUC for bull, and -nu- to Magdalenian NUL for the empty moon, while -ti- is close to Arabic tinat for the fig tree, and the fertility goddess Tin(n)it, Punic / Greek Thinith. One may also consider links to the culture of Beer
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