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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / September 2006



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Where is everyone?

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EarlCox - 06 Sep 2006 02:21 GMT
Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
John Harshman - 06 Sep 2006 16:43 GMT
> Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
> months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??

Summer vacation? Say something paleontological and see if you get a
response.
Ken Shaw - 06 Sep 2006 17:00 GMT
> > Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
> > months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
>
> Summer vacation? Say something paleontological and see if you get a
> response.

Birds are directly descended from theropods and cladistics is the only
way to classify organisms.

Ken
Gautam Majumdar - 06 Sep 2006 18:39 GMT
>> > Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a
>> > few months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Birds are directly descended from theropods

Hey, see this paper. Even in 2006 not everybody agrees with that.

Kurochkin E N, Parallel evolution of theropod dinosaurs and birds,
Zoologicheskii Zhurnal 2006; 85: 283-297

Abstract

In recent years, the hypothesis of an origin of birds from theropod
dinosaurs has been widely spread.  Direct sisterly relations between
theropods and birds are established based on such casual and formal
synapomorphies, as the number of tail vertebrae, relative length of the
humerus, flatness of the dorsal edge of the pubis, etc.  In essence, this
hypothesis is developed on such characters (recognized as homologies), as
feathers, furcula, uncinate processes, pygostyle, double-condyled cranial
joint of quadrate, and inverted back pubic bone, which are discovered in
various groups of Coelurosauria.  Not so long ago, they were considered as
apomorphies in birds.  Nevertheless, all these characters are mosaically
distributed among dromeosaurids, troodontids, oviraptorosaurids,
therizinosaurids, and tyrannosaurids.  There is no Theropoda group, where
they would occur together.  This fact testifies to parallelism in the
evolution of theropods and birds. Theropod dinosaurs and Sauriurae
(Archaeornithes with Enantiomithes) have a number of important system
synapomorphies that demonstrate their close relationships.  Ornithurine
birds do not have such synapomorphics, but their monophyly is established
according to a great number of diagnostic characters.  The hypothesis of
independent origin of Sauriurae and Ornithurae is substantiated. According
to this hypothesis, Sauriurae originated from Theropoda in the Jurassic
period and Ornithurae from basal Archosauromorpha in the Late Triassic
one.  Findings of small avian footprints in the upper Triassic and lower
Jurassic deposits on different continents support the existence of birds
in the Early Mesozoic era.

> cladistics is the only way to classify organisms.

Only if you are tracking evolution. Cladistics is no good for habitat
analysis, such as benthic and pelagic.

Signature


Gautam Majumdar

Please send e-mails to gmajumdar@freeuk.com

John Harshman - 06 Sep 2006 18:55 GMT
>>>>Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a
>>>>few months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Jurassic deposits on different continents support the existence of birds
> in the Early Mesozoic era.

I keep finding parallels between the BAND crowd and the creationists.
Creationists all agree that all hominid fossils are either humans or
apes, but they can't agree on which are which. And apparently BAND agree
that all bird/dinosaur fossils are either birds or dinosaurs, but they
can't agree which. Kurochkin apparently puts the boundary between
Sauriurae (almost certainly paraphyletic) and Ornithurae, while Feduccia
puts it at some unspecified place within Maniraptora.

But of course I haven't seen the paper itself and don't know what
evidence Kurochkin presents as to the true sister group of Ornithurae.
He's not still going on about Longisquama, is he?

>>cladistics is the only way to classify organisms.
>
> Only if you are tracking evolution. Cladistics is no good for habitat
> analysis, such as benthic and pelagic.
John Harshman - 06 Sep 2006 18:43 GMT
>>>Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
>>>months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Birds are directly descended from theropods and cladistics is the only
> way to classify organisms.

Cladistically, of course, what you meant to say is that birds are theropods.
Ken Shaw - 06 Sep 2006 18:46 GMT
> >>>Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
> >>>months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Cladistically, of course, what you meant to say is that birds are theropods.

Why of course that is what I meant. It's almost like one of us is a
sockpuppet.

Ken
John Harshman - 06 Sep 2006 20:12 GMT
>>>>>Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
>>>>>months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Why of course that is what I meant. It's almost like one of us is a
> sockpuppet.

Ah, but which one? Dibs on being the real person.
Ken Shaw - 06 Sep 2006 21:32 GMT
> >>>>>Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
> >>>>>months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Ah, but which one? Dibs on being the real person.

Ah but that makes you the cyberstalking loon while I'm just a
sockpuppet.;)

Ken
John Harshman - 07 Sep 2006 00:28 GMT
>>>>>>>Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
>>>>>>>months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Ah but that makes you the cyberstalking loon while I'm just a
> sockpuppet.;)

Still prefer it. And in that case wouldn't I be stalking myself?
John Wilkins - 07 Sep 2006 01:15 GMT
> >>>>>>>Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for
> >>>>>>>a few months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Still prefer it. And in that case wouldn't I be stalking myself?

You'll go blind if you keep doing that.
Signature

John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."

John Wilkins - 07 Sep 2006 01:14 GMT
> > > Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
> > > months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Birds are directly descended from theropods and cladistics is the only
> way to classify organisms.

Damn, I thought you were going to say something controversial...

Signature

John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."

Edward  Hennessey - 06 Sep 2006 18:17 GMT
> Hey, what happened to this news group? I haven't been back here for a few
> months, but I see that it is empty? Where did everyone go??

Question. If one could collect any accessible invertebrate
megafaunal localities, what would the list be?

Regards,

Edward Hennessey
 
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