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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / October 2006



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Article: The amazing fossil of 'Lucy's little sister'

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Robert Karl Stonjek - 20 Sep 2006 18:22 GMT
The amazing fossil of 'Lucy's little sister'
 a.. 20 September 2006
 b.. From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
 c.. Jeff Hecht

The stunningly complete skeleton of a three-year-old girl who lived 3.3 million years ago has been uncovered in Ethiopia. The child belongs to the species Australopithecus afarensis like the famous "Lucy", who was discovered in 1974. The young age of the so-called Dikika child promises new insights into the growth of early humans.

The new find is the most complete and important skeleton of an immature Pliocene hominin ever found, says Tim White of the University of California, Berkeley, who worked on the Lucy discovery. "The gist of the current paper is, 'Eureka, we have it'," he says.

A team led by Zeresenay Alemseged of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, spotted the first bones south of the Awash river on 10 December 2000. The team spent four field seasons scouring the area for every scrap of the skeleton.

Lucy was also found in the Awash region, which is famed for its early human fossils. Many anthropologists think A. afarensis was ancestral to the genus Homo, though its exact position in the human family tree remains a matter for debate.

Alemseged's team believes that a flood rolled the child's body into a ball and buried it in sand soon after her death, before the bones could be weathered or pulled apart by scavengers.

Analysis of the skeleton has barely begun because the upper parts, including the skull, shoulder blades, collarbones, ribs and backbone, are still largely encased in a block of hard sandstone. However, a CT scan of the skull revealed tooth development matching that of a three-year-old, the team reports in Nature (vol 443, p 296).

"At least 50 per cent of the skeleton is there, but more importantly we have the face and brain endocast, and the whole skull, telling us clearly how the [child] looked," says Alemseged. He estimates the brain size was 330 cubic centimetres, between 63 and 88 per cent of the size of an adult of the species. This hints at brain growth slower than in chimpanzees, whose brains have reached 90 per cent of adult volume by age three. A. afarensis may therefore have begun evolving the slower brain development characteristic of modern humans.

The exposed leg bones show the child walked bipedally like Lucy. In contrast, the shoulder blade "in some ways resembles young gorillas", says collaborator Bill Kimbel of Arizona State University. That supports the inference from Lucy's long arms that she was a better climber than modern humans. During the girl's lifetime the environment was a mosaic of forest and savannah, so the species may have gathered food and slept in trees, but walked from place to place.

Another key discovery is a hyoid bone, which is found in the throat and in humans is involved in speech. Until now, only one fossil hyoid has ever been found, and it was from a Neanderthal. The Dikika hyoid resembles an ape's, suggesting speech had not begun to evolve in A. afarensis.

Alemseged believes much information can be gained once the skeleton is freed from its stone casing. "A clear picture will emerge of how baby human ancestors were built, and how they grew up," he says.

From issue 2570 of New Scientist magazine, 20 September 2006, page 8

Source: NewScientist
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300

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Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek

Lee Olsen - 20 Sep 2006 20:02 GMT
> The amazing fossil of 'Lucy's little sister'
>   a.. 20 September 2006
>   b.. From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
>   c.. Jeff Hecht
>
>During the girl's lifetime the environment was a mosaic of forest and savannah....but walked from place to place.

Savannah?  Yep,  just like Dart said almost 80 years ago.  Walked from
place to place? Probably ran around a lot out on that savannah also.
Notice the article didn't say swim from place to place. Have a nice day
Marc.

> From issue 2570 of New Scientist magazine, 20 September 2006, page 8
>
> Source: NewScientist
> http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
pete - 21 Sep 2006 02:09 GMT
In sci.anthropology.paleo, on 20 Sep 2006 12:02:00 -0700,
Lee Olsen <paleocity@hotmail.com> sez:

` Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:
` > The amazing fossil of 'Lucy's little sister'
` >   a.. 20 September 2006
` >   b.. From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
` >   c.. Jeff Hecht
` >
` >During the girl's lifetime the environment was a mosaic of forest and savannah....but walked from place to place.

` Savannah?  Yep,  just like Dart said almost 80 years ago.  Walked from
` place to place? Probably ran around a lot out on that savannah also.
` Notice the article didn't say swim from place to place. Have a nice day
` Marc.

Well, http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/dikikababy/

"By December 2000, the search had turned up plenty of fossil mammals, such
as elephants, hippopotamuses, rhinoceroses, and antelopes, but no
hominins. Yet Zeresenay, who is based at the Max Planck Institute for
Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, knew his team was looking
in the right place. These animals would have thrived in the gallery forest
that flanked the ancestral Awash River. Early hominins would have lived in
these shady woodlands as well."

doesn't sound quite so savannah...

` >
` > From issue 2570 of New Scientist magazine, 20 September 2006, page 8
` >
` > Source: NewScientist
` > http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
` >

Signature

==========================================================================
   vincent@triumf[munge].ca                            Pete Vincent
       Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

Lee Olsen - 21 Sep 2006 05:18 GMT
> In sci.anthropology.paleo, on 20 Sep 2006 12:02:00 -0700,
> Lee Olsen <paleocity@hotmail.com> sez:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> doesn't sound quite so savannah...

Pretty exciting, Nat. Geo. Vs New Scientist. Who do you believe?

> ` >
> ` > From issue 2570 of New Scientist magazine, 20 September 2006, page 8
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>     vincent@triumf[munge].ca                            Pete Vincent
>         Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.
Marc Verhaegen - 21 Sep 2006 20:38 GMT
I just read the paper (can be found in the AAT1 files
http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT1 ).  Fascinating new data &
illustrations, but unfortunately the usual anthropocentric interpretations.
Why do fossil hunters always prefer to find human rather than ape
ancestors?? There's nothing human in this afarensis child: no long legs, no
big brain, no external nose.  Zero.  The few features the authors believe to
be human are simply primitive features: as so often, the authors confuse
"apelike" & "primitive": in many instances, Afr.apes have more primitive
features than humans, but in some features (eg, 2-leggedness) humans are
more primitive.  The child had curved phalanges for climbing.  Apelike
tongue bone.  Apelike labyrinth.  Laryngeal airsacs.  Small brain.  Short
legs.  Gorilla-like scapula.  Frequent use of arms overhead.  Etc.  Found in
delta plain, died in a flood.  Lived parttime in trees.  As we predicted
from comparative data, this species, like other early hominids (sensu
relatives of chimps, humans & gorillas), might well have waded on 2 legs in
& near swamps, feeding mostly on plant foods, climbing trees arms overhead,
perhaps even parttime KWing as the authors have to admit: "Now that the
scapula of this species can be examined in full for the first time, it is
unexpected to find the strongest similarities with Gorilla, an animal in
which weight-bearing and terrestrial knuckle-walking predominately
characterize locomotor use of the forelimbs33. Problematic in the
interpretation of these findings is that the diversity of scapula
architecture among hominoid species is poorly understood from a functional
perspective."   :-D   "unexpected"?  "problematic"?  To the contrary:
"predicted"!  (not on fossil, but on comparative data), see, eg,
- 1994 "Australopithecines: ancestors of the African apes?" Human Evolution
9:121-139
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
- with P-F.Puech & Stephen Munro 2002 "Aquarboreal ancestors?" Trends in
Ecology & Evolution 17: 212-7 (can also be found in the AAT or AAT1 files).
:-)

--Marc Verhaegen
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
__________

> In sci.anthropology.paleo, on 20 Sep 2006 12:02:00 -0700,
> Lee Olsen <paleocity@hotmail.com> sez:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> ` > Source: NewScientist
> ` > http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
rwalker@despammed.com - 21 Sep 2006 21:56 GMT
> I just read the paper (can be found in the AAT1 files
> http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT1 ).  Fascinating new data &
> illustrations, but unfortunately the usual anthropocentric interpretations.
> Why do fossil hunters always prefer to find human rather than ape
> ancestors?? There's nothing human in this afarensis child: no long legs, no
> big brain, no external nose.  Zero.

You obviously lack any knowledge of hominoid and hominid anatomy.

Pretty much puts all your futile arguments in their proper, null and
void, perspective.
Marc Verhaegen - 22 Sep 2006 11:06 GMT
> > I just read the paper (can be found in the AAT1 files
> > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT1 ).  Fascinating new data &
> > illustrations, but unfortunately the usual anthropocentric interpretations.
> > Why do fossil hunters always prefer to find human rather than ape
> > ancestors?? There's nothing human in this afarensis child: no long legs, no
> > big brain, no external nose.  Zero.

> You obviously lack any knowledge of hominoid and hominid anatomy.
> Pretty much puts all your futile arguments in their proper, null and
> void, perspective.

Never seen such good arguments, rwalker.  Very scientific.

:-D

http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm

http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Symposium.html

http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
rwalker@despammed.com - 28 Sep 2006 16:06 GMT
snip

> Never seen such good arguments, rwalker.  Very scientific.
>
> :-D

Ah yes, I should take to making it all up like you do.  Very very
scientific.  Learn some anatomy.
Marc Verhaegen - 28 Sep 2006 23:57 GMT
> > Never seen such good arguments, rwalker.  Very scientific.
> > :-D

> Ah yes, I should take to making it all up like you do.  Very very
> scientific.  Learn some anatomy.

Never seen such good arguments, rwalker.  Very scientific.
:-D

Why don't you inform a little bit, my boy, before trying to say something on
a subject you don't know anything about?

Z.Alemseged cs.2006 "A juvenile early hominin skeleton from Dikika,
Ethiopia" Nature 443:296-301: Understanding changes in ontogenetic
development is central to the study of human evolution. With the exception
of Neanderthals, the growth patterns of fossil hominins have not been
studied comprehensively because the fossil record currently lacks specimens
that document both cranial and postcranial development at young ontogenetic
stages. Here we describe a well-preserved 3.3-million-year-old juvenile
partial skeleton of Australopithecus afarensis discovered in the Dikika
research area of Ethiopia. The skull of the approximately three-year-old
presumed female shows that most features diagnostic of the species are
evident even at this early stage of development. The find includes many
previously unknown skeletal elements from the Pliocene hominin record,
including a hyoid bone that has a typical African ape morphology. The foot
and other evidence from the lower limb provide clear evidence for bipedal
locomotion, but the gorilla-like scapula and long and curved manual
phalanges raise new questions about the importance of arboreal behaviour in
the A.afarensis locomotor repertoire.

IOW:
1) There nothing in DIK-1-1 that suggests it's closed to Homo than to
Gorilla.  Gorilla-like hyoid, gorilla-like scapule, short legs, small brain,
no external nose, curved phalanges etc.etc.
2) Since DIK-1-1 had curved phalanges, it's obvious it spend a lot of time
in the branches, climbing arms overhead.
3) DIK-1-1 seems to have had "bipedal" features.  Where, rwalker, do you
find a combination of vertical climbing & short-legged bipedality?  In your
savanna, where they ran arms up??  No, my boy, in forest swamps, as you knew
of course, if you had read, eg, DM Doran & A McNeilage 1998 "Gorilla Ecology
and Behaviour" Evol.Anthr.6:120-131. These lowland gorillas (Ndoki Congo
Brazz.) spend 1-2 hrs/day wading in forest swamp in search for sedges etc.
It's clear that afarensis spent a lot of time wading in forest swamps on 2
legs as well as clmibing arms overhad in the branches above.  The most
important differences with the lowland gorillas is that afarensis spent a
lot more time wading & a lot less time knuckle-walking, and that they fed
more on hard plants such as sedges rather than softer vegetables.

IOW, people like Lovejoy confuse "primitive" & "apelike".  They follow the
usual anthropocentric interpretations & believethat whatever is apelke is
primitive.  It's understandable that fossil hunters prefer to find human
rather than ape ancestors, but have a good look at the data & illustrations
of the paper (you can find it in the AAT1 files): there's nothing human in
this afarensis child.  The few features the authors believe to be "human"
are *primitive* features: in many instances, Afr.apes have more primitive
features than humans, but in some features (eg, 2-leggedness) humans are
more primitive: it's obvious that some sort of short-legged bipedality
*predated* the split with the African apes.  The child had curved phalanges
for climbing.  Apelike tongue bone.  Apelike labyrinth.  Probably large
laryngeal airsacs.  Small brain.  Short legs.  Gorilla-like scapula.
Frequent use of arms overhead.  Etc.  As we deduced from comparative data,
this species, like other early hominids (sensu relatives of chimps, humans &
gorillas), might well have waded on 2 legs in & near swamps, feeding mostly
on plant foods, climbing trees arms overhead, perhaps even parttime KWing as
the authors have to admit: "Now that the scapula of this species can be
examined in full for the first time, it is unexpected to find the strongest
similarities with Gorilla, an animal in which weight-bearing and terrestrial
knuckle-walking predominately characterize locomotor use of the forelimbs.
Problematic in the interpretation of these findings is that the diversity of
scapula architecture among hominoid species is poorly understood from a
functional perspective."   Nothing "unexpected" nor "problematic", to the
contrary, as I showed years ago in my papers
- 1994 "Australopithecines: ancestors of the African apes?" Human Evolution
9:121-139
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
- with P-F.Puech & Stephen Munro 2002 "Aquarboreal ancestors?" Trends in
Ecology & Evolution 17: 212-7 (can also be found in the AAT or AAT1 files).

--Marc Verhaegen
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
______

rwalker, I suggest you carefully read the following discussion with
Hanenburg before opening again your big mouth on this subject:

> No matter what it looks like to you, on the basis of cladistic
> analysis Australopithecus afarensis is always closer related to Homo
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You can only falsify that hypothesis by a more parsimonious
> alternative on the basis of similar methods.

S+G's list is impressive & very interesting, but their cladistic analysis
has the problems of all such studies: what is primitive? and what about
parallelisms?  eg, they assume that thin enamel was the primitive state, but
the fossils nearest to the hominid LCA (hominid sensu HPG) such as Ouranop
had superthick enamel, the opposite of what is seen in their list.  I also
see that they combine boisei & robustus into Paranthropus, whereas it's
clear (eg, from temporal considerations) that the E & the S.Afr.robusts
evolved in parallel from more gracile ancestors in E & S.Africa resp.  For
improving such analyses it would probably be good to include as much as
possible temporal data (ie, earlier fossils should be more important in
deciding what is primitive).  And of course their analyses are based solely
on the osteological features of primates, eg, they don't take into
consideration comparative data of living animals that can be used to
reconstruct early lifestyles.  If we do that, reconstructions become a lot
more realistic, see our TREE paper
http://reviews.bmn.com/journals/atoz/latest?pii=S0169534702024904&node=TOC%4
0%40TREE%40017%4005%40017_05 .  I also don't see anything in their paper
that contradicts my Human Evolution papers on apith evol.trees
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html which,
as you know, provide arguments that the S.Afr.apiths might be closer
relatives of Pan, and the E.Afr.apiths (at least the large ones) of Gorilla.
Studies like that of S+G are virtually incapable of revealing such
possibilities.   IOW, "similar methods" have similar shortcomings: they
underestimate parallelism & don't consider other approaches.

> >>They are simply following a well-established hypothesis.

> >Simply following, yes.  But the hypothesis they're following is obviously
> >wrong: there's nothing uniquely human in the fossil, to the contrary it's
> >rather gorilla-like.  What the authors believe to be human (eg,
bipedalism?)
> >is primitively hominid.

> See above.

Yes, see above.

> >> >> How about the characters related to bipedalism, the most
> >> >> distinguishing feature of the human clade?

> >> >Distinguishing??  :-D

> >> Yes, no other primate is a habitual biped on the ground.

> >Gibbons or indris on the ground are habitually bipedal,

> Those taxa are primarily arboreal and therefore only facultative
> bipeds.

1) Being arboreal doesn't exclude bipedalism.
2) We know A.afar. were arm-hanging, but how often they walked or waded on 2
legs is more difficult to know.

> >but the point is:
> >it's generally assumed the hominid ancestors were vertical climbers, IOW,
> >some sort of (short-legged) bipedalism probably predates the H/P split:
this
> >could easily evolve into KWing (G & P in parallel), and longer-legged
> >bipedalism OTOH (Homo).

> The most likely hypothesis, based on the most parsimonious
> phylogenetic reconstruction, has the LCA as a knuckle-walker.
> See Richmond et al. (2001) "Origin of Human Bipedalism: The
> Knuckle-Walking Hypothesis Revisited", Yearbook of Physical
> Anthropology 44: 77-105.

It's an extremely unlikely & unparsimonious hypothesis:

1) parsimony:
It once more neglects parallelism: evolving KWing in P & G in parallel as a
synchronous adaptation to the same environmental changes (2 connected
changes) is a lot more probable than assuming that the hominid LCA evolved
KWing, which afterwards mysteriously disappeared without leaving any traces
in Homo (2 independent changes).

2) anat.facts:
It's obvious that the hominid LCA did not KW.   From one of my
Hum.Evol.papers (see link above):
- "...it is often argued that the African apes' ancestors also were more
bipedal (theory of W. L. Straus; see Coon 1954; Kleindienst, 1975; Goodman,
1982; Gribbin & Cherfas, 1983; Hasegawa et al., 1985; and esp. Edelstein,
1987; cf. Schultz 1949, p. 205). Indeed, that the African apes could evolve
from digiti-palmigrades (all other primates, including human infants) to
knuckle-walkers implies that they went through a phase where the arms were
barely used for pronograde locomotion (cf. Edelstein, 1987); an intermediate
phase of orthograde arm-hanging or brachiation insufficiently explains
knuckle-walking since neither orangutans nor hylobatids show traces of
knuckle-walking."
- "...knuckle-walking of chimps and gorillas has been argued to have arisen
independently (Begun, 1992), possibly in more bipedal ancestors
(Kleindienst, 1975; Hasegawa et al., 1985; Edelstein, 1987). Indeed, Gorilla
knuckle-walking anatomy and ontogeny are much better developed than in Pan,
and are different from Pan (Inouye, 1992). And the LCA (the last common
ancestor of Homo and Pan) had not yet acquired knuckle-walking since humans
do not at any age show the slightest trace of knuckle-walking behaviour: (1)
we lean (e.g. on a table) far more comfortably on our proximal than on our
middle hand phalanges; (2) whereas in knuckle-walking apes the middle hand
phalanges are naked, in many men they are dorsally haired, and fingers III
and IV (that bear most weight in knuckle-walkers) even more frequently than
V and II (Harrison, 1958; Singh, 1982; Ikoma, 1986); (3) "human infants walk
or run spontaneously on all fours and this invariably with the palms flat on
the ground and the fingers completely extended" (Schultz, 1936, p. 264)."

3) evol.time required:
Both KWing (P//G) & long-legged bipedalism (Homo) can easily be derived from
short-legged bipedalism (as seen in early hominids or even apiths), whereas
the evolution from KWing to humanlike bipedalism would require double as
many changes.

> >> > Frequent walking (wading IMO) on 2 (rel.short) legs
> >> >very likely predates the H/P & even the HP/G split.

> >> On what paleontological grounds is bipedalism firmly established?

> >What paleontol.data IYO fimly contradict this?

> Bipedalism is inferred on the basis of anatomical and/or behavioural
> characters (trace fossils), in particular of the postcranium and the
> cranial base.

Exactly: "inferred", but on what grounds??  Human bipedalism is unique, IOW,
their inferences are statistically worthless, eg, they reason like this:
this fossil had the foramen magnum underneath the skull, humans have the
for.m. underneath the skull, humans are bipedal, therefore this fossil also
was bipedal.  Don't you really see the flaws?
- Tarsiers also have the for.m. underneath the skull.
- Bipedal mammals not necessarily have the for.m. underneath the skull.
This applies to all so-called "bipedal" features.

> Absence of these features makes habitual bipedalism
> unlikely.

Of humanlike locomotion, you mean.

> Prior to A. anamensis the evidence is suggestive of
> bipedalism, but not particularly strong.

In the case of A.anam. the evidence is equally invalid statistically.

> >And why do you believe we need paleontol.grounds for this?

> Paleontology represents the only empirical access to the historical
> dimension, unless you have a time machine.

1) Not so: DNA provides an evol.tree, and the living spp provide external &
internal reconstructions (cf. reconstructions of languages without ancient
texts).
2) Fossils are assumed to belong to this or that branch (eg, many PAs still
believe apiths belong to the human branch) and then make a lot of deductions
from these unproven assumptions.  This can hardly be called science.

> >Fossil hunters never see "ape ancestors",

> Sure they do, that's why we have an extensive hominoid fossil record.

Ok, rephrase: fossil hunters +- never see chimp or gorilla ancestors in the
Plio-Pleist.Afr.fossil record.

> >they only see "human ancestors", and on these prejudices they construct
> >hypothetical evol.trees.  When reconstructing a LCA of 2 spp, we have to
> >compare the features of living spp.

> Unfortunately living species represent only a fraction of the total
> diversity of taxa. It's like reading a novel with 90% of the pages
> missing. Try reconstructing the origin of bird flight without the
> record of nonavian dinosaurs.

I don't know anything on bird flight, but in the case of the early hominid
lifestyle, comparing living hominoid spp with other extant mammal spp can
help us a lot: they suggest that the hominid LCA was a vertical
climber-wader in swamp forests (eg, our TREE paper).  This reconstruction is
corroborated by the fossil evidence for Mio-Pliocene apes.

> > *We* had ancestors, but it's unknow whether the fossils had descendants.

> Still, you can use those fossils in a phylogenetic reconstruction and
> see where they fit in, without assuming direct ancestry.

:-D   Many PAs are apparently incapable of fitting them in in the correct
places: without good evidence they place all apith spp in the Homo branch...
That's the point we're discussing, forgot?

> >> And how do those characters distribute in your cladogram?

> >See M.Verhaegen, P-F.Puech & S.Munro 2002 "Aquarboreal ancestors?" Trends
in
> >Ecology & Evolution 17, 212-217

> That paper doesn't even have a cladogram, only some speculative
> phylogenetic scheme.

Yes, but a lot more realistic (based on comparisons with living animals)
than traditional "schemes".

> >>>>>As all other apith fossils found in shallow water, wetlands, river
> >>>>>delta, lakeside...

> >> >> Laetoli?   Gerrit

> >> >Yes.  As you know, nothing in Laetoli contradicts that apiths were
> >> >herbivores in wetlands, lakesides etc.

> >> Except for a few nasty facts, such as the total absence of aquatic
> >> taxa from that site. Laetoli was neither wetland, nor lakeside, nor
> >> riverdelta. That refutes your statement that all apith fossils were
> >> found in such environments. Simple.  Gerrit

> >PJ Andrews 1989 "Palaeoecology of Laetoli" JHE 18:173-181 "...presence of
> >Python... consistent evidence for abundant trees in the Laetoli
habitat...
> >uncritical acceptance of unspecified savanna habitat at Laetoli...
browsing
> >species needing closed cover or trees with little evidence of open
country
> >species..." completely confirms our aquarboreal view of apith lifestyle
> >(note this has nothing to do with Homo evolution, of course).  Pythons
> >require a lot of water, IOW, there's no evidence Laetoli must have been
an
> >exception among apith sites, to the contrary.

> Laetoli is exceptional in that taxa such as Pisces, Hippopotamidae,
> Crocodylia, etc. are totally absent. The species of python recovered
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> your proposition that all apiths were found in such environments.
> Therefore this part of our discussion requires no follow-up.

You assume that is was P.sebae, but all other apith sites suggest large
bodies of water.  Laetoli does not exclude this.  In case you forgot: we
argue (mostly on comparative grounds) that several apith spp regularly waded
for waterside plants (perhaps like Ndoki gorillas do today, but more
frequently).  This is not contradicted by the Laetoli data.

> >Conclusion: most likely DIK-1-1 was some sort of fossil gorilla: it looks
> >like a gorilla child, it had clear arm-hanging features, it didn't have a
> >single human feature: no large brain, no external nose, no long legs, it
> >even seems to have had laryngeal airsacs & gorilla-like labyrinth &
hyoid.
> >Of course it was different from living gorillas, it might well have had
> >bipedal features, that is exactly what we expected on comparative
grounds:
> >that the common ancestors of H, P & G were short-legged vertical climbers
&
> >waders in wetlands.  As you know, our aquarboreal ideas are being picked
up
> >by traditional PAs, not only Tobias

Why did you snip the refs?  You better read them:
- Tobias http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
- R.Wrangham 2005 "The Delta Hypothesis: hominoid ecology & hominin origins"
in D.Lieberman, R.Smith & J.Kelley "Interpreting the past: essays on human,
primate & mammal evolution in honor of David Pilbeam" Brill Ac.Publishers
Boston: 231-242.

> Good for you, but lately I haven't seen anything in support of the
> hypothesis through the major PA communication channels (such as JHE or
> AJPA).

Is this perhaps meant as an argument??  It's not my problem that many PAs
currently are anthropocentrically biased & don't even consider the
possibility that apiths might not be more closely related to humans than to
chimps or gorillas.

> At most those ideas are marginal, as they have always been.   Gerrit

1) That's your problem.  Plate tectonics was marginal once.
2) Calling Tobias & Wrangham & Puech marginal is not very serious...
3) You better tell us not *that* but *why* you are so blindly convinced that
our scenario is wrong.  Apparently you can't.  You can't even tell us why
you believe the Dikika child could not have belonged to the Gorilla branch
(title of this thread).
Jois - 29 Sep 2006 01:50 GMT
> snip
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Ah yes, I should take to making it all up like you do.  Very very
> scientific.  Learn some anatomy.

Don't be too hard on Marco, he hasn't a lot of time to spend learning
anything.  Making it all up is soooo much faster.

I'm amazed that no one has sent forth headlines that "The Missing Link  as
been found" and that now "all the text books will have to be re-written"
which is kind of a relief.

Jois
Rich Travsky - 24 Sep 2006 07:05 GMT
> I just read the paper (can be found in the AAT1 files
> http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT1 ).  Fascinating new data &
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> perspective."   :-D   "unexpected"?  "problematic"?  To the contrary:
> "predicted"!  (not on fossil, but on comparative data),

"The foot and other evidence from the lower limb provide clear evidence for
bipedal locomotion"

"Most bipedal features seen in A. afarensis specimens are observed on the
lower limband foot of DIK-1-1. Overall, the tibiae—with their transversely
expanded shaft beneath the tibial plateau—are similar to that of the juvenile
A.L. 333-39, but have a sharper anterior border also shown by modern humans.
As in modern humans, the tibialis anterior muscle originated anterior to the
interosseous ridge and occupied the lateral side of the tibial shaft, extending
the sharp anterior border. The tibialis posterior muscle occupied the lateral
aspect of the posterior part of the shaft. Similar to humans, the lateral upper
part of the shaft is rather concave, particularly just below the condyles, and
becomes convex more distally."

"The DIK-1-1 skeleton confirms the functional dichotomy of the body plan of A.
afarensis: a more derived lower body adapted for bipedal locomotion"

"The calcaneus of DIK-1-1 is robust, as in humans, and its distal part is
mediolaterally wider in relation to its dorsoplantar dimension compared with that
of Pan."

> > In sci.anthropology.paleo, on 20 Sep 2006 12:02:00 -0700,
> > Lee Olsen <paleocity@hotmail.com> sez:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> > ` > Source: NewScientist
> > ` > http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
Marc Verhaegen - 26 Sep 2006 20:14 GMT
> > I just read the paper (can be found in the AAT1 files
> > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT1 ).  Fascinating new data &
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> > perspective."   :-D   "unexpected"?  "problematic"?  To the contrary:
> > "predicted"!  (not on fossil, but on comparative data),

>  "The foot and other evidence from the lower limb provide clear evidence for
>  bipedal locomotion"
>  "Most bipedal features seen in A. afarensis specimens are observed on the
>  lower limband foot of DIK-1-1. Overall, the tibiae-with their
transversely
>  expanded shaft beneath the tibial plateau-are similar to that of the
juvenile
>  A.L. 333-39, but have a sharper anterior border also shown by modern humans.
>  As in modern humans, the tibialis anterior muscle originated anterior to the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>  mediolaterally wider in relation to its dorsoplantar dimension compared with that
>  of Pan."

:-)   Good boy.  Yes, that's exactly what we "predicted" a few years ago on
comparative evidence (eg, Trends in Ecology & Evolution 17:212-7, 2002): the
early hominids were bipedal/vertical waders/climbers, a bit like lowland
gorillas (eg, Ndoki) that wade 1-2 hrs/day in forest swamps in search for
AHV (aquatic herbaceous vegetation), and climb out of the swamp grasping a
branch arms overhead, but afarensis spent more time bipedally wading, and
less time knuckle-walking than the Ndoki gorillas.  Some PAs seem to believe
that they ran over the savanna (with the arms up?!  :-D), but most PAs now
(including Zeresenay Alemseged, who found the new afarensis DIK-1-1) believe
bipedality has nothing to do with savanna.  Alemseged: "I believe we should
just put the savannah theory aside. I think they basically became biped
while they were living in a wooded, covered environment."  A covered
environment is only part of the answer, of course: otherwise a lot of
primates had adopted bipedality.  The other part is obviously the wading on
2 legs in shallow forest swamps ("the juvenile hominin was buried as an
intact corpse shortly after death during a major flood event") in search for
sedges & other waterside plants, in accordance with the broad cheekteeth,
the thick enamel of afarensis & the enamel microwear.  Little doubt they fed
partly on fruits (in trees or fallen in the swamp), but fruit consumption
leaves few traces on the dentition.

Schematically: afarensis:
- arms = climbing features = arms overhead = tree = Latin "arbor",
- legs = bipedal features = wading on 2 legs = water = Latin "aqua",
Aqua + Arboreal = Aquarboreal Ape Theory
("aquarboreal" = term coined by Marcel Williams).

--Marc Verhaegen
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
Roger Bagula - 20 Sep 2006 20:57 GMT
>     The amazing fossil of 'Lucy's little sister'
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
>  

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060920/ap_on_sc/human_ancestor
Young 'ape-human' skeleton found

By MALCOLM RITTER, AP Science Writer 11 minutes ago

NEW YORK - In a discovery sure to fuel an old debate about our
evolutionary history, scientists have found a remarkably complete
skeleton of a 3-year-old female from the ape-man species represented by
"Lucy."
ADVERTISEMENT

The remains found in Africa are 3.3 million years old, making this the
oldest known skeleton of such a youthful human ancestor.

"It's a pretty unbelievable discovery... It's sensational," said Will
Harcourt-Smith, a researcher at the American Museum of Natural History
in New York who wasn't involved in the find. "It provides you with a
wealth of information."

For one thing, it gives new evidence for a contentious feud about
whether this species, which walked upright, also climbed and moved
through trees easily.

The species is Australopithecus afarensis, which lived in Africa between
about 4 million and 3 million years ago. The most famous afarensis is
Lucy, discovered in Ethiopia in 1974, a creature that lived about
100,000 years after the newfound specimen.

The new find is reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature by
Zeresenay Alemseged of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary
Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany; Fred Spoor, professor of evolutionary
anatomy at University College London, and others.

The skeleton was discovered in 2000 in northeastern Ethiopia. Scientists
have spent five painstaking years removing the bones from sandstone, and
the job will take years more to complete.

Judging by how well it was preserved, the skeleton may have come from a
body that was quickly buried by sediment in a flood, the researchers said.

"It's a once-in-a-lifetime find," said Spoor.

The skeleton has been nicknamed "Selam," which means means "peace" in
several Ethiopian languages.

Most scientists believe afarensis stood upright and walked on two feet,
but they argue about whether it had ape-like agility in trees.

That climbing ability would require anatomical equipment like long arms,
and afarensis had arms that dangled down to just above the knees. The
question is whether such features indicate climbing ability or just
evolutionary baggage.

Spoor said so far, analysis of the new fossil hasn't settled the
argument but does seem to indicate some climbing ability.

While the lower body is very human-like, he said, the upper body is
ape-like:

_The shoulder blades resemble those of a gorilla rather than a modern human.

_The neck seems short and thick like a great ape's, rather than the more
slender version humans have to keep the head stable while running.

_The organ of balance in the inner ear is more ape-like than human.

_The fingers are very curved, which could indicate climbing ability,
"but I'm cautious about that," Spoor said. Curved fingers have been
noted for afarensis before, but their significance is in dispute.

A big question is what the foot bones will show when their sandstone
casing is removed, he said. Will there be a grasping big toe like the
opposable thumb of a human hand? Such a chimp-like feature would argue
for climbing ability, he said.

Yet, to resolve the debate, scientists may have to find a way to inspect
vanishingly small details of such old bones, to get clues to how those
bones were used in life, he said.

Bernard Wood of George Washington University, who didn't participate in
the discovery, said in an interview that the fossil provides strong
evidence of climbing ability. But he also agreed that it won't settle
the debate among scientists, which he said "makes the Middle East look
like a picnic."

Overall, he wrote in a Nature commentary, the discovery provides "a
veritable mine of information about a crucial stage in human
evolutionary history."

The fossil revealed just the second hyoid bone to be recovered from any
human ancestor. This tiny bone, which attaches to the tongue muscles, is
very chimp-like in the new specimen, Spoor said.

While that doesn't directly reveal anything about language, it does
suggest that whatever sounds the creature made "would appeal more to a
chimpanzee mother than a human mother," Spoor said.

The fossil find includes the complete skull, including an impression of
the brain and the lower jaw, all the vertebrae from the neck to just
below the torso, all the ribs, both shoulder blades and both
collarbones, the right elbow and part of a hand, both knees and much of
both shin and thigh bones. One foot is almost complete, providing the
first time scientists have found an afarensis foot with the bones still
positioned as they were in life, Spoor said.

The work was funded by the
National Geographic Society, the Institute of Human Origins at Arizona
State University, the Leakey Foundation and the Planck institute.
Roger Bagula - 21 Sep 2006 00:28 GMT
> Source: NewScientist
> http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
>  

It should probably be said here that as ythe Neanderthal and AMH are
chimpanzees four and three,
this bugger could probably not be told from a chimpanzee
without special measurements?
deowll - 21 Sep 2006 04:20 GMT
>> Source: NewScientist
>> http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> this bugger could probably not be told from a chimpanzee
> without special measurements?

From the waist up. From the waist down it wouldn't be an issue. The kid had
a butt and a chimp doesn't.
Rich Travsky - 24 Sep 2006 06:53 GMT
> > Source: NewScientist
> > http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125703.300
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> this bugger could probably not be told from a chimpanzee
> without special measurements?

As there were no chimpanzees back then the comparision is an easy one.
Paul Crowley - 21 Sep 2006 23:04 GMT
> Alemseged's team believes that a flood rolled the child's body
> into a ball and buried it in sand soon after her death, before
> the bones could be weathered or pulled apart by scavengers.

Every year numerous bodies are deposited by
floods (such as by the tsunami of 20 months
ago)  How many are 'rolled into a ball'?

The idea is ridiculous. Nor would it be difficult
to test further.  Make a number of dolls of about
the same size, and put them in various streams
of flowing material (i.e. all manner of natural
and industrial processes).  It would be next-
to-impossible to finish up with a doll in a ball.
The arms and legs get splayed;  if the material
has any density, they get broken off.  In fact,
with adults in such situations (e.g. avalanches
and landslides) the head is usually the first
part of the anatomy to become detached.
That must be even more the case with children.
The neck of a three-year-old is extremely weak
by comparison with an adult, while the head is
proportionately much larger.

There is only one sensible solution:  the infant
was buried, by her loving parents and other
relatives.  They did not want to see scavengers
tear up her body.  What is so hard to
comprehend in such a idea?  Why are PA
types so locked in to traditional doctrine?

Hominids at this time would have been well-
advanced in tool-use, often employing digging-
sticks for roots, and sometimes to get water.
Digging a hole in soft sand to bury a small
child would have been a trivially simple task.

That is why we have so many hominid fossils
-- they were deliberately buried on death.
We would have enormous numbers if our
taxon had not always lived close to sea-level,
where its habitation is subject to huge erosion
as sea-levels rise and fall.  Unsurprisingly,
one of the few locations to escape this fate is
exactly where this fossil was found.  It has
been steadily uplifted, by tectonic forces, over
the past 3 million years.

Paul.
deowll - 22 Sep 2006 04:14 GMT
>> Alemseged's team believes that a flood rolled the child's body
>> into a ball and buried it in sand soon after her death, before
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Digging a hole in soft sand to bury a small
> child would have been a trivially simple task.

You want to know what happens to bodies in rural Africa that are buried? The
hyena dig them up and eat them. Was looking at pictures of a nice collection
of crunched human bones the other day. They had been collected to compare
with what early human bones looked like.

> That is why we have so many hominid fossils
> -- they were deliberately buried on death.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Paul.
Day Brown - 22 Sep 2006 06:06 GMT
An abandoned or lost child, caught out in a storm, would have rolled
into the fetal position before dying of exposure. That same storm could
well have caused a flash flood burying the body. If it also caught lots
of other animals, there would have been plenty of meat for scavengers
like hyenas.
Paul Crowley - 22 Sep 2006 10:50 GMT
> An abandoned or lost child, caught out in a storm, would have rolled into the fetal position
> before dying of exposure. That same storm could well have caused a flash flood burying the
> body.

How often does that happen in nature?
That is, how often are the bodies of
ANY animals left by a flood curled up
in the foetal position?

Maybe one case in ten thousand?

Are they the kind of odds on which
to base a scientific argument?

Paul.
deowll - 23 Sep 2006 01:17 GMT
>> An abandoned or lost child, caught out in a storm, would have rolled into
>> the fetal position
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Paul.

I don't know. I know a body buried deep by a flood is a lot less likely to
be found than a body buried in a shallow grave dug with digging sticks.
Paul Crowley - 22 Sep 2006 10:49 GMT
>> Hominids at this time would have been well-
>> advanced in tool-use, often employing digging-
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You want to know what happens to bodies in rural Africa that are buried? The hyena dig them up
> and eat them.

Sometimes, yes.  But it is easy to deter
scavengers.  You just dig deeper, and /
or cover the body with layers of thorns.

Paul.
spiznet - 22 Sep 2006 15:04 GMT
> >> Hominids at this time would have been well-
> >> advanced in tool-use, often employing digging-
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Paul.

Unfortunately, nothing is seen of McGinn's nation-state of a'piths even
4.5 mya after the 8mya origin!!! No football, no TV, no speech...
deowll - 23 Sep 2006 01:15 GMT
>>> Hominids at this time would have been well-
>>> advanced in tool-use, often employing digging-
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Paul.

How much deeper do you have in mind and how many thorns? I have the feeling
you pulled this off the top of your head. This solution isn't that easy for
simi chimps using digging sticks and found stone flakes.

It occured to me the youngster might have crawled into a hollow long now
vanished. The positon of the body and the fact that it was in flood debris
is not open to debate.
Paul Crowley - 23 Sep 2006 11:32 GMT
>>>> Hominids at this time would have been well-
>>>> advanced in tool-use, often employing digging-
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
> How much deeper do you have in mind and how many thorns?

Whatever it takes -- in both respects.  The
hominids would have done this with their
dead, and seen when their work failed,
and the hyenas got at the bodies.  They
would have known how deep and how
many thorns.

> I have the feeling you pulled this off the top of your head.

Not so.  It is standard operating procedure
to deter scavengers.   Digging animals
find it hard to cope with buried thorns.

> This solution isn't that easy for simi chimps using digging sticks and
> found stone flakes.

There is almost nothing in it.

> It occured to me the youngster might have crawled into a hollow long now vanished.

And get into a foetal position?
How often does that happen in nature?

> The positon of the body and the fact that it was in flood debris is not open to debate.

Bury any body in your local patch of
naturally-occurring sand, and it is highly
likely to be "in flood debris".  If not, it is
likely to finish up in flood debris -- maybe
10 Kyr later.

Paul.
deowll - 25 Sep 2006 03:32 GMT
>>>>> Hominids at this time would have been well-
>>>>> advanced in tool-use, often employing digging-
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> There is almost nothing in it.

To a guy with flabby muscles setting in a padded chair suggesting work for
others to do. Why don't you get a stick and try this? Dig a hole in your
front yard and bury a couple of chickens. See how much work it is to keep
the local dogs from digging it up.

>> It occured to me the youngster might have crawled into a hollow long now
>> vanished.
>
> And get into a foetal position?
> How often does that happen in nature?

How often do animals hide in hollow logs? All the time. How often did apths?
That is hard to say because they are extinct. A heck of a lot more often
than they buried bodies I'd guess. Modern humans down in Australia still do
this.

>> The positon of the body and the fact that it was in flood debris is not
>> open to debate.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> likely to finish up in flood debris -- maybe
> 10 Kyr later.

Which is one reason fossils aren't all that common.

> Paul.
Paul Crowley - 25 Sep 2006 11:23 GMT
>>> I have the feeling you pulled this off the top of your head.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
> To a guy with flabby muscles setting in a padded chair suggesting work for others to do.

I am not suggesting anything.  I am
reporting what I have seen.  Are you
suggesting that people in African fail
to bury their dead, and commonly
leave the bodies out for hyenas?

> Why don't you get a stick and try this? Dig a hole in your front yard and bury a couple of
> chickens. See how much work it is to keep the local dogs from digging it up.

It is easier to find a place with soft sand,
such as by a river.  Use your hands or
something like a shell.  You will get down
to depth quickly.

>>> It occured to me the youngster might have crawled into a hollow long now vanished.
>>
>> And get into a foetal position?
>> How often does that happen in nature?
>
> How often do animals hide in hollow logs?

You've mistaken my question, which
was about how often animal carcases
left by floods are found in foetal positions
(even after having crawled into hollow logs).

Paul.
deowll - 26 Sep 2006 02:59 GMT
>>>> I have the feeling you pulled this off the top of your head.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> to bury their dead, and commonly
> leave the bodies out for hyenas?

They weren't frail. So you think these beings were human? You have your work
cut out for you if you expect to get these beings added to the genus Homo.

I'd call them apes. There isn't much evidence to suggest that apes bury
their dead.

>> Why don't you get a stick and try this? Dig a hole in your front yard and
>> bury a couple of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> something like a shell.  You will get down
> to depth quickly.

So can the meat eaters.

>>>> It occured to me the youngster might have crawled into a hollow long
>>>> now vanished.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> left by floods are found in foetal positions
> (even after having crawled into hollow logs).

That issue has already been addressed by another.

> Paul.
Lee Olsen - 23 Sep 2006 15:19 GMT
> >> Hominids at this time would have been well-
> >> advanced in tool-use, often employing digging-
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> scavengers.  You just dig deeper, and /
> or cover the body with layers of thorns.

Sorry, wrong again. The  thorns that are strong enough to keep  hyenas
out of a grave are the same ones that are strong enough to puncture
auto tires. These are more durable and far more likely to be preserved
in the record than the fragile hyoid bone found with the child. If
things like fragile root throws and hyoid bones got preserved, then
thorns would be there also. You are making up evidence that does not
exist again, a typical trait with you I'm afraid.



> Paul.
Paul Crowley - 24 Sep 2006 11:48 GMT
>> Sometimes, yes.  But it is easy to deter
>> scavengers.  You just dig deeper, and /
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> out of a grave are the same ones that are strong enough to puncture
> auto tires.

You obviously fail to understand, both the
immediate point and the general debate.
(Why does that not surprise me?)  In this
case, I was merely informing "deowll" of the
common method of deterring scavengers
from human graves.  Typically, the grave is
finished off by a thorn bush, which is also
buried.  A hyena has to dig out the whole
bush to get at the corpse.  That is usually
hugely impractical.

> These are more durable and far more likely to be preserved
> in the record than the fragile hyoid bone found with the child.

Your logic is child-like (nothing wrong with
that, per se).  Hard things last longer than
soft things, so hard thorns should make for
better fossils than  much bone.  BUT  . . . .
but . . . IF the world followed your simple
logic, and thorns, and other hard woods,
survived that well as fossils, all the continents
would be covered, tens of thousand of miles
deep, in fossilised thorns, etc.

Yet, that does not appear to be the case.

Any ideas as to why?

> If things like fragile root throws and hyoid bones got preserved, then
> thorns would be there also.

We are, in this case, talking about the grave
of very small child.  It would not generate
much odour to attract hyenas in any event.
You dig a hole as deep as feasible -- say
about a metre and a half, put the infant's body
in, re-fill and cover the top with a clump of
thorns.  There is virtually no chance of their
fossilisation.

> You are making up evidence that does not
> exist again, a typical trait with you I'm afraid.

There is no evidence to make up.  I am
merely explaining what we see -- something
conspicuously avoided by all the standard
PA folks.   When we find a 'fossil graveyard'
-- as with, for example, the 'first family', we
SHOULD come to some conclusion as to how
it arose.  The 'flash flood' is always the first
option of standard PA types.  Usually, it's the
only one.  But somehow no chimp or gorilla
was ever caught up in one.  And sometimes the
absence of all other animals (other than hominids)
has to be explained as well.

There are some facts that need explanation,
no matter how much you want to bury your
head in the sand.

Paul.
Lee Olsen - 24 Sep 2006 16:52 GMT
> >> Sometimes, yes.  But it is easy to deter
> >> scavengers.  You just dig deeper, and /
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> bush to get at the corpse.  That is usually
> hugely impractical.

You seem to be missing something here (as usual).
This thread is about an apith child, not modern humans. Modern humans
also commonly travel by airliners to get from  one destination to
another, does that mean Lucy was traveling that way also? Modern humans
do a lot of things that Lucy wasn't doing. So what if it can be shown
that thorns,  rocks, or coffins deter predators? Did these  things
actually exist with homind bones in the past? The burden is on you to
produce the evidence, not for the other person to disprove the
negative. Just because you can imagine something, doesn't make it so,
it's just lip service, not science.

> > These are more durable and far more likely to be preserved
> > in the record than the fragile hyoid bone found with the child.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> would be covered, tens of thousand of miles
> deep, in fossilised thorns, etc.

No, because the process of preservation of anything but rock is only
chance, therefore little gets preserved at all. Not every area of the
earth is conducive to the process.  For instance, maybe only one bone
in a million will ever be fossilized. Same for thorns, at least as far
as the ratio between them is concerned.

> Yet, that does not appear to be the case.

How do you think all the miles of coal got there? Some places just
happened to be good for the preservation of coal. No thorns in coal,
right?

> Any ideas as to why?

Yes, your ignorance. The evidence is there, you are just too lazy to
look for it in the literature.

> > If things like fragile root throws and hyoid bones got preserved, then
> > thorns would be there also.
>
> We are, in this case, talking about the grave
> of very small child. It would not generate
> much odour to attract hyenas in any event.

Wrong, we are talking about the bones of a very small child encased in
sandstone, that was once mud, nothing more.  Do a Google search. A
blood hound found a human body buried c30 feet deep in a well a year
after it was filled with rip-rap in order to hide the body.  Don't you
ever be so stupid as to underestimate the power of a predator's nose.

> You dig a hole as deep as feasible -- say
> about a metre and a half, put the infant's body
> in, re-fill and cover the top with a clump of
> thorns.  There is virtually no chance of their
> fossilisation.

Then how do the root throws and extremely fragile grass roots get
preserved, over, under, and immediately above bones at archaeological
sites?

> > You are making up evidence that does not
> > exist again, a typical trait with you I'm afraid.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> absence of all other animals (other than hominids)
> has to be explained as well.

You are confused. The evidence of fragile objects are commonly seen at
archaeological sites. The fact that you won't admit this only shows
that you are delusional. You are trying to wash away hard evidence and
replace it with your own ignorance. Your lips are working, but your
brain seems to be dead. What is your counter evidence that the first
family was buried by their own kind?

The Ph content of the soil dictates that chimps and gorillas will not
be preserved. How many fossil birds do you find preserved in rain
forests?

And the hyena bones found in absence of other animals, including
hominids, were buried by other hyenas?

> There are some facts that need explanation,
> no matter how much you want to bury your
> head in the sand.

Bones of all kinds are literally surrounded by fragile plant remains at
archaeological sites where preservation is good. If thorns were being
used at deliberate hominid burials 3 million years ago, then thorns
should be found more often than grass roots. If grass roots and thorns
are found in the same ratios that they are found in their natural
state, then they ended up at these sites strictly by chance. You have
to demonstrate there was an excess of thorns at the child's location
to make an argument. The burden is not on me to disprove a negative.

> Paul.
Paul Crowley - 25 Sep 2006 11:34 GMT
>> In this
>> case, I was merely informing "deowll" of the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You seem to be missing something here (as usual).
> This thread is about an apith child, not modern humans.

Agreed, but 'deowl' asked a question about
how I knew (about modern practices).

> that thorns,  rocks, or coffins deter predators? Did these  things
> actually exist with homind bones in the past? The burden is on you to
> produce the evidence, not for the other person to disprove the
> negative. Just because you can imagine something, doesn't make it so,
> it's just lip service, not science.

Nope.  The 'science' currently works on a set
of Biblical, or quasi-Biblical assumptions --
all of which pre-date the concept of 'niche'.

If PA ever catches up with the rest of Biology,
it will begin to realise that the hominid taxon is
no different from every other one on the planet
and acquired its distinctive characteristics
when it first speciated.  Then it may begin to
question its standard assumption:  that no
human or hominid behaviour should be thought
to have existed until just before hard evidence
can be found to demonstrate its presence.

>> > These are more durable and far more likely to be preserved
>> > in the record than the fragile hyoid bone found with the child.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> in a million will ever be fossilized. Same for thorns, at least as far
> as the ratio between them is concerned.

If only.  You really don't have a clue, do you?

Take a look around.  Or at some photographs
of natural places in Africa -- or even anywhere
temperate.   Estimate the quantity of thorns,
and other hard woods, in proportion to the
number of bits of live bone (in animals) around.
You will see that they VASTLY outnumber and
outweigh them.   So, if we were to accept your
assumption of a general rule of  'one in a million'
we'd still be swimming in fossilised thorn bushes.

>> Yet, that does not appear to be the case.
>
> How do you think all the miles of coal got there? Some places just
> happened to be good for the preservation of coal. No thorns in coal,
> right?

As you said earlier, this an apith child;  it's
not about geological depositions from hundreds
of millions of years previously.  There are no
coal deposits dating from the last three million
years.

>> Any ideas as to why?
>
> Yes, your ignorance. The evidence is there, you are just too lazy to
> look for it in the literature.

You should know by now that low-grade
bullshit does not work around here.

>> > If things like fragile root throws and hyoid bones got preserved, then
>> > thorns would be there also.

You don't seem to have got the point that
vegetable matter disintegrates rapidly, since
it is attacked and digested by all manner of
macro- and micro-organisms.  That does not
apply to bone -- or does so to a much lesser
extent -- one reason being that there is much
less of it around.

>> We are, in this case, talking about the grave
>> of very small child. It would not generate
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> after it was filled with rip-rap in order to hide the body.  Don't you
> ever be so stupid as to underestimate the power of a predator's nose.

Firstly, that well was probably not filled with
sand, or earth, or other odour-absorbing
material.  Secondly the odours had nowhere
to go but up.

In any case, are you claiming that humans
can never bury their dead -- since scavengers
will always get them?

Apart from thorns, the other standard method
of deterring scavengers is to cover the grave
with rocks.  Logs would do as well.  No doubt
there are other methods.  It will depend on
what is available.  It is rarely a serious problem.

>> You dig a hole as deep as feasible -- say
>> about a metre and a half, put the infant's body
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> preserved, over, under, and immediately above bones at archaeological
> sites?

They are usually preserved as impressions,
'gaps' or 'channels' in more permanent material.

> What is your counter evidence that the first
> family was buried by their own kind?

(1) The fact that no other species were found
in the 'flash flood'.  (2) The large  number of
individual hominids.  (3) More generally, the
huge number of hominid fossils -- by
comparison with other hominoids.

> The Ph content of the soil dictates that chimps and gorillas will not
> be preserved.

Chimps and gorillas are routinely found on
more open ground -- similar or identical to
that on which early hominids are thought
to have made their habitat.

> How many fossil birds do you find preserved in rain
> forests?

How many fossil birds do you find -- period?
But early hominids and many chimps are
supposed (under standard PA 'theory') to
have lead near-identical lives, in near-
identical habitats.

> And the hyena bones found in absence of other animals, including
> hominids, were buried by other hyenas?

Yep.  What species do you think digs
hyena dens?  A hyena corpse left above
ground is not likely to fossilise.

That applies generally -- as you obviously
don't know.  Species that occupy dens, and
are occasionally buried in them, leave many
more fossils than those which never go
underground.

Paul.
MClark - 25 Sep 2006 15:07 GMT
[...]
>> Yes, your ignorance. The evidence is there, you are just too lazy to
>> look for it in the literature.

Oh! Look!  Another fine Crowley .sig for the collection:

> You should know by now that low-grade
> bullshit does not work around here.

Properly formatted:

"You should know by now that low-grade
bullshit does not work around here."
P. Crowley, 9/25/2006

And my favorite:

"But you can't begin to specify what the
benefit of a 'better brain' would be for
the adult." --Paul Crowley 03/17/2004

[..]

> Paul.
>
Signature

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one:
'O, Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.'  And God granted it."
--Voltaire

Lee Olsen - 25 Sep 2006 17:21 GMT
> >> In this
> >> case, I was merely informing "deowll" of the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Agreed, but 'deowl' asked a question about
> how I knew (about modern practices).

Well then, you have made it very clear what you know about modern
practices is not always true, because deowll's point about hyenas
digging up modern bodies is just as valid as the fact that modern
bodies are sometimes protected.

> > that thorns,  rocks, or coffins deter predators? Did these  things
> > actually exist with homind bones in the past? The burden is on you to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of Biblical, or quasi-Biblical assumptions --
> all of which pre-date the concept of 'niche'.

Your ignorance of how science functions is simply astounding. Science
does not currently work on assumptions at all, biblical or otherwise.
You may call this an assumption at the starting point if you wish, but
until some test is devised to test its validity it remains imagination
only.   At the unknown level it works on hypotheses and the testing of
them. The tests rely on evidence gathered. The null is then either gets
a boost for its validity or is falsified. Nothing is ever proven, and a
hypothesis is always left open to modification (this is my take on
Huxley). The mistake you continually make is stopping at the point of
imagination and then argue because you can imagine something it must be
true with out requiring any data to support your claims. That is not
science, its imagination.

> If PA ever catches up with the rest of Biology,
> it will begin to realise that the hominid taxon is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to have existed until just before hard evidence
> can be found to demonstrate its presence.

That is nothing more than meaningless rhetoric.  You are trying to
substitute imagination for tests. For example, I see every day that the
world is flat, I can then safely imagine the world must be flat (by
your logic), skipping tests to demonstrate its so, then bash scientists
for demanding useless tests to prove what I can certainly imagine.  It
is you, in fact,  that is being  quasi-Biblical.

> >> > These are more durable and far more likely to be preserved
> >> > in the record than the fragile hyoid bone found with the child.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> You will see that they VASTLY outnumber and
> outweigh them.

Yep, exactly my point,  root casts, for instance, do vastly outnumber
bones.  Root casts vastly outnumber thorns also. If there were hominid
intervention involved and thorns were being artificially introduced to
the site of the burial in numbers enough to deter hyenas,  they should
outnumber the bones also.  If something less durable survived, as did
the imprint of grass and tree roots, then the more durable thorns are
by default  required to be there also, especially if they were
artificially stacked into the burial.
Grass has been shown to be common at many old sites, do you think grass
was placed in these so-called graves by hominids also? What process in
your mind would save the grass and not the more durable thorns?

  So, if we were to accept your
> assumption of a general rule of  'one in a million'
> we'd still be swimming in fossilised thorn bushes.

Why? Some areas do not preserve anything, thorns or bones, just rock.

Thorns should be swimming around in your imaginary graves, but they are
not.

> >> Yet, that does not appear to be the case.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> coal deposits dating from the last three million
> years.

Its also about preservation, which is seriously lacking in your
argument.
Bones are bones. Normal ratios between them and other items of equal
preservation  potential can be easily be calculated. If thorns were
artificially introduced into early burials, this ratio should
dramatically increase. There is no logical reason why these alleged
protection measures would not still be in the record.
In the absence of thorns in the area (to continue with your type
argument), rocks are also  commonly used by moderns to mark graves and
to protect them from predators.  Even where the soil is acidic, these
tell-tale cairns mark graves are as obvious as tombstones in some
areas.  In 3 million years they should be out there by the billions.
They are not.

> >> Any ideas as to why?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You should know by now that low-grade
> bullshit does not work around here.

I see, you have never excavated an archaeological site in Africa and
never made a site report on one, yet somehow you know what is and what
isn't in them. You haven't even read one near as I can determine or
else you wouldn't be so ignorant of the evidence available. Evidence
then becomes bullshit in your quasi-Biblical mind.

> >> > If things like fragile root throws and hyoid bones got preserved, then
> >> > thorns would be there also.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> extent -- one reason being that there is much
> less of it around.

Why is grass more stable than thorns if that is the case? Point out
this micro-organism that attacks thorns and not grass roots.

> >> We are, in this case, talking about the grave
> >> of very small child. It would not generate
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> material.  Secondly the odours had nowhere
> to go but up.

Of course the odor went up. Where I live the law requires livestock to
be buried with six feet of fill on top of the animal (the depth at
which the average backhoe can dig). Without the use of lime, the odor
can still be detected by the feeble human nose for two years after
burial. This is in sandy soil, called loess. One thing for certain, you
could not bury a child deep enough with a digging stick to prevent it
from being detected by a hyena.

> In any case, are you claiming that humans
> can never bury their dead -- since scavengers
> will always get them?

Are you claiming Lucy's child was human in every aspect?

> Apart from thorns, the other standard method
> of deterring scavengers is to cover the grave
> with rocks.  Logs would do as well.  No doubt
> there are other methods.  It will depend on
> what is available.  It is rarely a serious problem.

Yep, in 3 million years there should be billions of cairns out there,
but there is not. Why do you  think your imagination is evidence of
anything other than your ignorance?

> >> You dig a hole as deep as feasible -- say
> >> about a metre and a half, put the infant's body
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> They are usually preserved as impressions,
> 'gaps' or 'channels' in more permanent material.

Yep, I cited this months ago, in another thread with you, so I didn't
think it need be repeated. But for the benefit of  your short memory,
"root casts" OK? You still haven't explained why the imprint of
grass exists and not the thorns?????? Cat got you tongue?

> > What is your counter evidence that the first
> > family was buried by their own kind?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> huge number of hominid fossils -- by
> comparison with other hominoids.

(1) Liar. See LUCY page 214-16.
(2) See Taieb's comments page 216.
(3)  Most animals can  sense approaching danger better than humans and
thus would be less likely to be trapped in such an event as a flash
flood.

> > The Ph content of the soil dictates that chimps and gorillas will not
> > be preserved.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that on which early hominids are thought
> to have made their habitat.

I was referring to fossils of three million years ago. If hominids were
living in rain forests 3 million years ago, we wouldn't have their
fossils either and we don't.

> > How many fossil birds do you find preserved in rain
> > forests?
>
> How many fossil birds do you find -- period?

More bird fossils in the rift, than in rain forests

> But early hominids and many chimps are
> supposed (under standard PA 'theory') to
> have lead near-identical lives, in near-
> identical habitats.

If you go back  far enough in time that is true, but at some point
there was a separation. Only a few fossil chimps teeth have been found
in the rift. This only means there was some overlap in range of
habitat.

> > And the hyena bones found in absence of other animals, including
> > hominids, were buried by other hyenas?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> more fossils than those which never go
> underground.

Great point Paul! One in a million for above ground, right? Then why do
they find hyena bones buried in million year-old dens at Olorgesailie
(Potts 1998), and in spite of the fact millions of stone artifacts have
been found demonstrating they were present and sixty years of
excavations, the Olorgesailie Basin has produced no burials of
hominids?  Certainly there were nearly as many hominids burying their
dead as hyenas. They have only recently found one Homo erectus skull at
Ororgesailie and no evidence that it was buried, no thorns, no rock
cairns, no logs. Conclusion: hyenas buried their dead and hominids
didn't.

Thanks Paul, you just buried your own argument.    

> Paul.
Paul Crowley - 27 Sep 2006 10:55 GMT
>> Agreed, but 'deowl' asked a question about
>> how I knew (about modern practices).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> digging up modern bodies is just as valid as the fact that modern
> bodies are sometimes protected.

Idiot.  Of course, the measures sometimes
fail.  People are lazy, or get tired or distracted
and have other things to do, and sometimes
don't take all the care they should.

>> Nope.  The 'science' currently works on a set
>> of Biblical, or quasi-Biblical assumptions --
>> all of which pre-date the concept of 'niche'.
>
> Your ignorance of how science functions is simply astounding. Science
> does not currently work on assumptions at all, biblical or otherwise.

It is amazing how so many of those who
pretend to practise science (usually at the
lowest level) are so incredibly naive.  They
have never heard of 'Original Sin' -- or, to
put it in modern terms, they have lost all
concept of how social systems work;  they
are quite incapable of applying evolutionary
concepts to themselves or to their
organisations.

Ever heard of Machiavelli?  It is about time
that someone wrote a modern version for
the way in which 'science' works.  Presumably
there are a few exposes of certain disciplines.

> You may call this an assumption at the starting point if you wish, but
> until some test is devised to test its validity it remains imagination
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> hypothesis is always left open to modification (this is my take on
> Huxley).

All social institutions -- and especially
those 'sciences' concerned with the nature
of humanity and its origins -- are riddled
with masses of unstated, unrecognised
assumptions.

> The mistake you continually make is stopping at the point of
> imagination and then argue because you can imagine something it must be
> true with out requiring any data to support your claims. That is not
> science, its imagination.

You don't know what science is --
neither in theory, nor in reality (always
far-removed from theory).

>> If PA ever catches up with the rest of Biology,
>> it will begin to realise that the hominid taxon is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> That is nothing more than meaningless rhetoric.

There is nothing rhetorical.  Does (or does not)
the 'science' maintain that the hominid taxon is
unique -- unlike every other known species on
the planet -- in that its distinctive characteristic
did NOT appear at its point of origin?

> You are trying to substitute imagination for tests.

There is NO imagination in that question.
Yet it is never considered by the crap
discipline that you regard as a 'science'.

>> Take a look around.  Or at some photographs
>> of natural places in Africa -- or even anywhere
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> by default  required to be there also, especially if they were
> artificially stacked into the burial.

You are getting there -- slowly.   IMPRINTS
of grasses and tree roots survive -- typically
when they are encased in rocks.  But a layer
of thorns, well above a grave, would highly
unlikely finish up encased in anything.  It
would rapidly disappear, and dissolve into
the soil.

> Grass has been shown to be common at many old sites, do you think grass
> was placed in these so-called graves by hominids also? What process in
> your mind would save the grass and not the more durable thorns?

I thought you were making progress.  But
now you've slipped back to 'more durable
thorns'.   How 'durable' do you think that is?
How long would thorns last, buried in
'average' fairly well-watered ground?
Do you think that archaeologists of, say,
the Tudors, or of the Virginian settlement
period, often encounter thorns in something
like their pristine state?

> Its also about preservation, which is seriously lacking in your
> argument.
> Bones are bones. Normal ratios between them and other items of equal
> preservation  potential can be easily be calculated. If thorns were
> artificially introduced into early burials,

Thorns are not 'introduced' into the burial.
They are a layer under the surface, and
well above the corpse.  You would not find
them over a 100-year-old grave, except
under something like desert conditions.

> this ratio should
> dramatically increase. There is no logical reason why these alleged
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> tell-tale cairns mark graves are as obvious as tombstones in some
> areas.

Such cairns are often large and are created
to mark and _commemorate_ the dead.
They are FAR in excess of what is needed
to ward off animal scavengers.

> In 3 million years they should be out there by the billions.

A layer of rocks to keep away predators
would not be noticeable 3 million years
later.  Even if it were, it would not be
noticed by those who do not have eyes
to see.

> They are not.

Actually, that is no surprise, given the typical
'badland' conditions in which most hominid
fossils have been found, where they are
located as they erode out of the landscape.
But, can you imagine the reaction of the
peer-reviewers if the researchers were to
comment upon an apparent 'cairn' near the
fossil location?

>> > Then how do the root throws and extremely fragile grass roots get
>> > preserved, over, under, and immediately above bones at archaeological
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "root casts" OK? You still haven't explained why the imprint of
> grass exists and not the thorns?????? Cat got you tongue?

This is such a childish question; you should
not think of asking.  Roots often grow_through_
a fossil.  The cast will be preserved in it and
with it.  Dead, mature thorns, laid in the soil
some feet above, don't go anywhere;  all they
'do' is decay into dust.

>> > What is your counter evidence that the first
>> > family was buried by their own kind?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (1) Liar. See LUCY page 214-16.
> (2) See Taieb's comments page 216.

Sorry, but my copy is not to be found.

> (3)  Most animals can  sense approaching danger better than humans and
> thus would be less likely to be trapped in such an event as a flash
> flood.

We are talking about early hominids, whose
capacities in this respect should be much the
same as other wild species.  You might as
well suggest poddles are the same as wolves.
Selection for such things has not been in
operation in modern humans for dozens of
generations.  It would have been fully so at
that time.  In any case, they were close to
chimps.  Why were no chimps ever apparently
caught in flash floods?

>> > The Ph content of the soil dictates that chimps and gorillas will not
>> > be preserved.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> living in rain forests 3 million years ago, we wouldn't have their
> fossils either and we don't.

Many chimps do not live in rain forests.
To repeat:
Chimps and gorillas are routinely found on
more open ground -- similar or identical to
that on which early hominids are thought
to have made their habitat.

>> But early hominids and many chimps are
>> supposed (under standard PA 'theory') to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in the rift. This only means there was some overlap in range of
> habitat.

No.  It means that, like many other species,
chimps leave few fossils.  Hominids leave huge
quantities, because although they lived at sea-
level in locations highly subject to frequent
coastal erosion, they buried their dead, and
those fossils can be found where geotectonic
forces have raised the land above all subsequent
high-points in sea-level.

>> That applies generally -- as you obviously
>> don't know.  Species that occupy dens, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Great point Paul! One in a million for above ground, right?

What is this 'one in million'?  For chimps it is
zero in a billion billion.

> Then why do
> they find hyena bones buried in million year-old dens at Olorgesailie
> (Potts 1998), and in spite of the fact millions of stone artifacts have
> been found demonstrating they were present and sixty years of
> excavations, the Olorgesailie Basin has produced no burials of
> hominids?

The hominid burial sites were probably in
soft sand, and have been washed away.

> Certainly there were nearly as many hominids burying their
> dead as hyenas.

Ridiculous.  You have no idea. Stone tools
last nearly forever in such as site and can
give a completely false impression of
population size.

> They have only recently found one Homo erectus skull at
> Ororgesailie and no evidence that it was buried, no thorns, no rock
> cairns, no logs. Conclusion: hyenas buried their dead and hominids
> didn't.

You can come to no sensible conclusions
from the absence of fossils at one site.

Paul.
Lee Olsen - 27 Sep 2006 18:14 GMT
> >> Agreed, but 'deowl' asked a question about
> >> how I knew (about modern practices).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and have other things to do, and sometimes
> don't take all the care they should.

Nobody said your weren't lazy. Of course you are. Evidence for graves
are found 100, 000 years ago, but not 3 million. You claimed moderns
use logs, rocks, and thorns to protect their dead. You are now claiming
rocks disappeared along with the thorns 100% of the time when fragile
grass is in evidence and they are not?

> >> Nope.  The 'science' currently works on a set
> >> of Biblical, or quasi-Biblical assumptions --
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> the way in which 'science' works.  Presumably
> there are a few exposes of certain disciplines.

Lip service now becomes evidence for lack of thorns, logs, and rock
cairns? You are insane.

> > You may call this an assumption at the starting point if you wish, but
> > until some test is devised to test its validity it remains imagination
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> with masses of unstated, unrecognised
> assumptions.

Says who? Paul the nobody that divines all the evidence he needs just
by invoking his silly imagination. Next you will be telling us Lucy had
TV sets and they all vanished because you think they were always just
above the flood waters and washed away.

> > The mistake you continually make is stopping at the point of
> > imagination and then argue because you can imagine something it must be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> neither in theory, nor in reality (always
> far-removed from theory).

Well, rock cairns are very easy to identify, let's see some of your
examples of 3 million year old models.

> >> If PA ever catches up with the rest of Biology,
> >> it will begin to realise that the hominid taxon is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the planet -- in that its distinctive characteristic
> did NOT appear at its point of origin?

The Greeks were certainly mentally capable of inventing hang gliders.
Does that mean they did? No, because we would easily find evidence for
them in the record. Ditto for evidence of graves. Easy to demonstrate
the presents of graves in 400 BC, but this fact does not prove another,
that they also had hang gliders. Demonstrating Lucy walked upright does
not prove she buried her child.

> > You are trying to substitute imagination for tests.
>
> There is NO imagination in that question.
> Yet it is never considered by the crap
> discipline that you regard as a 'science'.

Evidence is not all about questions you fool, it's about finding the
evidence to back up your imaginary claims

> >> Take a look around.  Or at some photographs
> >> of natural places in Africa -- or even anywhere
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> would rapidly disappear, and dissolve into
> the soil.

Well above? You don't know that. What is your imaginary evidence that
thorns were always placed well above graves 3 million years ago? How
far is it practical for anyone to dig down with digging sticks and
their hands in order to place thorns so high above that only they would
disappear and the bones wouldn't?

> > Grass has been shown to be common at many old sites, do you think grass
> > was placed in these so-called graves by hominids also? What process in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> period, often encounter thorns in something
> like their pristine state?

We are making progress. You already conceded rocks and logs were also
used, those dissolved into the soil also, every time without fail? You
also forgot about another fail safe place humans inter their dead that
makes for great preservation-caves. Funny Lucy and her kin avoided
caves for 3 million years. Don't be ridiculous thinking Lucy always
had thorns and never rocks to cover her graves. If you can imagine
thorns, then you have to grant be the same right you grant yourself.
Therefore I imagine rocks were used a million to one over thorns. Prove
me wrong.

> > Its also about preservation, which is seriously lacking in your
> > argument.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> them over a 100-year-old grave, except
> under something like desert conditions.

No steel picks and shovels 3 million years ago. Any fool would realized
the thorns would have to be in close proximity to the bones and would
not always be washed away. But that still doesn't help the fact that
moderns also use rocks to cover graves and they don't dissolve into
the soil. You have not given any rational reason why rock piles
shouldn't be in evidence also.

> > this ratio should
> > dramatically increase. There is no logical reason why these alleged
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> They are FAR in excess of what is needed
> to ward off animal scavengers.

Often?? More