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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / November 2006



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Oreopithecus in Sardinia ?? Re: Further support for the Stonethrowing Theory created bipedalism; NOVA's "Family that walks on all Fours"

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a_plutonium - 15 Nov 2006 19:05 GMT
Question is was Oreopithecus found in Southern Italy, perhaps the
island of Sardinia? And what is the extent of that fossil find? Do we
have a skull? Do we have wrists or arm bones?

a_plutonium wrote:
> An excellent program on TV tonight of a Turkish family whose mother and
> father were cousins and whom 5 of the children walk on fours. A scan of
> their brains reveals part of the cerebellum is missing and thus lack of
> balance.
>
> But what was most interesting to me was the two time Brian Richmond
> entered the discussion about bone anatomy and bipedalism. Where the
> first time he focuses on the wrist bone where in humans the joint is
> "flat" but in quadraped chimps the wrist is stiff with a cusp on the
> bone. Richmond called it "bar-boned wrist" and tells us why they are
> knucklewalkers instead of palm walkers. The flattened human wrist joint
> allows 90 degree bending whereas chimps do not have that degree of
> freedom.
>
> The later on Brian said something very intriguing for us who believe
> and understand that Throwing rocks and stones is the key to humanity
> for it was throwing that came first and created bipedalism as an
> offshoot of throwing behaviour. I have been looking for telltale
> fingerprints of throwing behaviour in bones. Just as Pickford on
> Orrorin used the fingerprint of the femur to determine bipedalism.
> Brian mentions the fact that the spinal cord emerges from the bottom of
> the skull in bipedalism and not the back of the skull.
>
> So let me say why that is important. In order to make a living from
> throwing rocks and stones, it does no good to have the face and eyes
> mostly pointed downward to the ground but rather to have the head look
> far and high in the sky to throw rocks and stones. So I put it to the
> science community, that whenever a skull of a Orrorin is found, and if
> that spinal cord emerges from the bottom and not the back, we know
> Orrorin was a rockthrower. And the fossils found that are older than
> Orrorin where the hole in the skull is at the bottom, we may or may not
> know if they were bipedal, but we are sure they were rock or
> stonethrowers. The only reason for the hole for the spinal cord to
> drift to the bottom of the skull is for the behaviour of Throwing. And
> to accentuate and facilitate and increase the accuracy and proficiency
> of Throwing, well, bipedalism co-evolved along with the Throwing.
>
> So Throwing is primary and bipedalism is a secondary offshoot.
>
> This program was excellent in that it revealed these facts by Brian
> Richmond. However, the program is full of mistakes and the biggest is
> their dullard view that humanity is defined by "3 Human Traits" (1)
> bipedalism (2) big brains (3) language. The program even  demerits
> language in its FoxP2 gene when they find out it is only 250 thousand
> years old.
>
> The only great distinguishing feature of humanity over its closest
> relative-- the chimpanzee is that humanity perfected Throwing. Throwing
> later created bipedalism and much later created bigger brains and the
> need for language.
>
> So, now, there is a report of a fossil find of some creature in
> southern Italy of Sardinia or Sicily or thereabouts who is believed to
> be 8 to 13 million years old. We must inspect this fossil for clues as
> to Throwing. Was there a skull found? And was the hole to accomodate
> the spinal cord migrating towards the bottom or was it at the back of
> the skull?
>
> So the very earliest skull where evidence of the migration of the hole
> to accomodate the spinal cord at the bottom is a Throwing creature and
> our most distant relatives. And probably the species that would give
> rise to Orrorin.
>
> When NOVA shows this program in the future, they should delete the talk
> on big brains and on language. They should co-mingle the talk on
> RockThrowing and bipedalism. It is sad that the word "Throwing" was
> never mentioned.
>
> But it was amazing to see a dog named "Faith" in Oklahoma City borne
> without front legs and had learned to walk on two legs.
>
> And what will prove the Stonethrowing or RockThrowing theory is
> genetics. As we proceed into the future we will discover that the
> muscles and bones anatomy of the human body was designed for that of
> Throwing, and that later additions to Throwing behaviour gave rise to
> bipedalism to enhance and increase throwing and later yet bigger brains
> and the need of language to make throwing better.
>
> As I have written so often in the past, that when Neanderthal man met
> up with our ancient ancestors, Neanderthal was slightly less proficient
> at throwing and that is what extincted Neanderthal. The human species
> that lived, extincted all the other competitors who were less efficient
> at Throwing.
>
> It would be interesting to analyze the spinal column hole at the base
> of the skull and see how less of a migration to the bottom that
> Neanderthal had compared to modern humans. In other words, Neanderthal
> could not see as well at a distance to how his throwing was going.
>
> And, yes indeed, Chimps can throw, but can they throw efficiently? So
> the amount of migration of the spinal column hole and the fact that the
> wrists of chimps are stiff makes them less proficient at Throwing.
>
> Excellent NOVA , for I learned something to help the Stonethrowing
> theory, and NOVA learns from me that their program really needs to be
> half about Throwing and half about bipedalism.

I dredged up an old post of mine. I have so many science theories on my
plate that as I review them, years later, I am not as crisp in memory.
I think Oreopithecus was found in a fossil in Sardina Italy. Can
someone verify that?

Orrorin compared to Sahelanthropus tchadensis
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Date: Thurs, Apr 7 2005 1:08 am
Email: Archimedes Plutonium <a_pluton...@iw.net>
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New news in the news tonight. Apparently a fossil of a skull found in
Chad which is some 6 to 7 million years old may have walked upright
according to its discoverer Michel Brunet. The evidence of bipedalism
is
from the position of the hole in the skull to accomodate the spinal
cord
which in humans is vertical but in apes is at an angle.

Now Orrorin found in Kenya by the team of Senut and Pickford date their
hominid at 6 million years old.

The Stonethrowing theory agrees with both the finds of Brunet and
Pickford and in fact Oreopithecus.

What the media should be saying about all of this and what scientists
should be saying about all of this is that Oreopithecus is the oldest
human ancestor and that Tchadensis is connected to Orrorin.

So Oreopithecus is the first upright, bipedal ancestor because
Stonethrowing forced Oreopithecus to become bipedal. And this bipedal
Oreopithecus migrated into northern Africa. By the time Oreopithecus
reached what is now Chad in Africa we find the remains of Oreopithecus
and call it Tchadensis. And about 1 million years later we find
Tchadensis having migrated even further south east into what is now
Kenya and Tchadensis becomes Orrorin.

So if this concept is correct, or should I say theory, would then
predict that somewhere between Italy and Chad, Africa will be found
another hominid fossil between Oreopithecus and Tchadensis and this
also
will be found to be bipedal.

If memory serves, Oreopithecus is about 10 million years old. That
leaves bipedal fossils of hominids to be found between Italy and Chad,
Africa that are 8 million and 9 million years old. Gradations of
hominids between that of Oreopithecus to Tchadensis. And likewise,
there
should be found some hominid fossils that are gradation differences
between Tchadensis in Chad to Orrorin in Kenya. So if we draw a
straight
line map of where Oreopithecus was found connecting the dot of where
Tchadensis was found connecting the dot to where Orrorin was found, we
should find intermediates between those dots on the map.

Now I never thought the hole in the skull to accomodate the spinal cord
was very important to bipedalism. And I am not sure whether it is and
to
what extent of importance. So this poses a new challenge to the
Stonethrowing theory. That theory states that Stonethrowing came first
and caused bipedalism. Stonethrowing created bipedalism. So if the
position of that hole in the skull is important in having bipedalism,
the question facing Stonethrowing theory is whether that hole is
important for being able to throw rocks and stones.

And chimpanzees do a little of underhand throwing so is their hole in
the skull for the spinal cord closest to matching the hole for humans?

And if the hole for humans was not vertical to ground, would that
impede
or hinder the Throwing behaviour?

So this new news brings up new questions about Stonethrowing theory as
I
focus on a new issue of bone morphology-- that of the hole to
accomodate
the spinal cord.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
a_plutonium - 17 Nov 2006 18:45 GMT
--- quoting from Wikipedia on Oreopithecus with my comments
interspersed ---

Oreopithecus bambolii
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Oreopithecus)
Jump to: navigation, search
?Swamp Ape
Fossil range: Miocene
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Oreopithecidae?
Genus: Oreopithecus
Species: O. bambolii
Binomial name
Oreopithecus bambolii
Gervais, 1872

The Swamp Ape (Oreopithecus bambolii) is a prehistoric primate species
from the Miocene epoch whose fossils have been found in Italy (Tuscany
and Sardinia) and in East Africa. To date, over 50 individuals have
been discovered from the Tuscan mines of Monte Bamboli, Baccinello,
Montemassi, Casteani, and Ribolla, making Oreopithecus one of the
best-represented fossil apes.

A.P.: I do not know why so many fossils of this primate were found. Is
it because they lived near swamps and swamps were the best place to
become fossilized??? Well fortunate for anthropologists to have a huge
supply of fossils because I have the suspicion that Oreopithecus was
our earliest ancestor who lived from about 12 to 8 million years ago
and whose next descendent was Orrorin. I suspect the line to human
evolution goes from Oreopithecus to Orrorin and then directly to
Humanity.

Oreopithecus bambolii is estimated to have weighed 30-35 kg. It
possessed a relatively short snout, elevated nasal bones, small and
globular neurocranium, vertical orbital plane, and gracile facial
bones. The shearing crests on its molars suggest a diet specializing in
plant leaves. The very robust lower face, with a large attachment
surface

A.P.: I wonder if anyone has given us a 3-dimensional model of what
this species looked like.

for the masseter muscle and a sagittal crest for attachment of the
temporal muscle, indicates a heavy masticatory apparatus. Its teeth
were small relative to body size. The lack of a diastema (gap) between
the second incisor and first premolar of the mandible indicates that
Oreopithecus had canines of size comparable to the rest of its
dentition. In many primates, small canines correlate with reduced
inter-male competition for access to mates and less sexual dimorphism.

A.P.: When a species makes Rockthrowing and Stonethrowing their primary
way of living, then canines will not be evolved but rather instead the
arms, hands and other bones for Throwing better. Evolution has to spend
alot of energy in changing bone structure of the hands and arms for
throwing and it does not have extra energy for changes elsewhere. What
I call a Budget Allowance of Evolution.

Its habitat appears to have been swampy, and not savanna or forest. The
postcranial anatomy of Oreopithecus features adaptations to both
suspensory arborealism and bipedalism. Functional traits related to
suspensory locomotion include its broad thorax, short trunk, high
intermembral index, long and slender digits, and extensive mobility in
virtually all joints. At the same time, it also features adaptations to
upright walking such

A.P.: The phrase "extensive mobility in virtually all joints" is most
important. Now I wonder if many hand and finger bones are available
from Oreopithecus, and whether anyone has mapped the evolution of the
wrist joint for the wrist to bend 90 degrees. Humanity has a 90 degree
bend but chimps, orangutans, gorillas and monkeys do not have this 90
degree bend for they are knuckle walkers. So if Oreopithecus was not a
knucklewalker but a palmwalker further implies Oreopithecus was a
rudimentary biped. But most important of all, is that the 90 degree
bend is essential and necessary to be an efficient and proficient
Thrower of rocks and stones. So this wrist joint is the unique
fingerprint or signature of a primate who Throws for a living and who
will become humanity.

as the presence of a lumbar curve, in distinction to otherwise similar
species known from the same period. Since the fossils have been dated
to about 8 million years ago, this represents an unusually early
appearance of upright posture. How adapted it was for bipedal walking
is not known, but its fingers and arms also seems to show adaptations
for climbing and swinging.

Another piece of evidence lies in the semicircular canals of the inner
ear. The semicircular canal serves as a sense organ for balance and
controls the reflex for gaze stabilization. The inner ear has three
canals on each side of the head, and each of the six canals encloses a
membranous duct that forms an endolymph-filled circuit. Hair cells in
the duct's ampulla pick up endolymph disturbances caused by movement,
which register as rotatory head movement. They respond to body sway of
frequencies greater than 0.1 Hz and trigger the vestibulocollic (neck)
reflex and vestibuloocular (eye) reflex to recover balance and gaze
stability. The bony semicircular canals allow estimates of duct arc
length and orientation with respect to the sagittal plane.

During upright walking, human head rotation frequencies range between
2-8 Hz along the sagittal and coronal planes and between 1-3 Hz along
the horizontal plane. Across species, the semicircular canals of agile
animals have larger arcs than those of slower ones. For example, the
rapid leaper Tarsius bancamus has semicircular canals much bigger than
the slow-climbing Nycticebus coucang. The semicircular canals of
brachiating gibbons are bigger than those of arboreal and terrestrial
quadrupedal great apes. As a rule of thumb, arc size of the ducts
decreases with body mass and consequently slower angular head motions.
Arc size increases with greater agility and thus more rapid head
motions. Modern humans have bigger arcs on their anterior and posterior
canals, which reflect greater angular motion along the sagittal plane.
The lateral canal has a smaller arc size, corresponding to reduced head
movement from side to side.

Allometric measurements on the bony labyrinth of BAC-208, a fragmentary
cranium that preserves a complete, undeformed petrosal bone suggest
that Oreopithecus moved with agility comparable to extant great apes.
Its anterior and lateral semicircular canal sizes fall within the range
for great apes. Its relatively large posterior arc implies that
Oreopithecus was more proficient at stabilizing angular head motion
along the sagittal plane.

A.P.: Now I do not know what to make of these above paragraphs on the
ear canal. I am puzzled that fossils would have such enormous detail.
Or, it is possible that Wikipedia, since it is a "freely edited
encyclopedia" has a touch of vandalism and that the above is utter
bogus. But assuming that the above is genuine, then perhaps a new case
study in support and favor of Rockthrowing and Stonethrowing theory is
in the works. In that fossilized inner ear would prove the
Stonethrowing theory beyond doubt. For if the inner ear of Oreopithecus
is more advanced than the inner ear of modern chimps would connect
Oreopithecus directly to a long line of evolution that leads directly
to Homo sapiens. To throw accurately would require a gyroscopic like
balance and the inner ear is what provides Throwers with the balance
mechanism. Balance in throwing would later contribute to balance in
bipedalism.

Some have suggested the unique locomotory behavior of Oreopithecus
requires a revision of the current consensus on the timing of
bipedality in human developmental history, but there is little
agreement on this point among paleontologists. Among other things, its
foot was birdlike and had an anatomy different from the early bipedal
human ancestors.

A.P.: Some have said Oreopithecus had birdlike feet or hoofed feet. I
suspect this is charlatan reports by haters of Oreopithecus who have
found say a hoof from a hoofed animal embedded in the fossil bed where
Oreo was found and then mistakenly or fraudulently assigned as Oreo's
foot. On the other hand, if it is true that Oreo had a hoofed like foot
would only strengthen the Stonethrowing theory in that the Throwing
bones of arms and hands were fast forwarded -evolution whereas the
bipedalism bones were barely moving forward.

It evolved in isolation from other animals for at least two million
years on an island in the Mediterranean where Tuscany in Italy is found
today. A cooling phase around 9 million years ago transformed a
tropical island into a temperate one characteristic of middle European
biomes at the time. There were no large predators on the island and the
apes didn't have any natural enemies. Later, probably during the ice
age when the sea level dropped all over the world, a land bridge
emerged and connected the island with the mainland. New species, among
them large predators, were then free to invade this isolated
environment where animals like the Swamp Ape were easy prey. Soon this
strange primate, as well as other creatures on the island, was gone
forever; a parallel to what happened when the land bridge between North
America and South America joined the two continents.

A.P.: I do not know what to think about the above scenario if true. Did
the first Rockthrowers and Stonethrowers need such a isolated and
protected environment to develop Throwing to the point where they could
make a living off of just simply throwing? I do not know. Perhaps an
isolated environment accelerated the Throwing adaptation and where
Throwing could not have had that focal point of accelerated evolution
if apes in Africa of 12 to 8 million years ago started to throw. But
what is clear is that once Throwing was advanced by Oreopithecus, that
the best environment to further advance throwing was the plains of
Africa with its huge concentration of herd animals and plenty of rocks
laying around and open sight. So Oreopithecus was the first Throwing
for a Living primate who became Orrorin and would eventually become
Humanity. So I wonder if a protected initial environment was needed to
develop Throwing.
--- end quoting Wikipedia on Oreopithecus in parts and where I comment
on specifics ---

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
Jim McGinn - 18 Nov 2006 06:50 GMT
> A.P.: When a species makes Rockthrowing and Stonethrowing their primary
> way of living, then canines will not be evolved but rather instead the
> arms, hands and other bones for Throwing better.

Oh, brother.  So it just never occurred to you that changes in tooth
morphology can most parsimoniously be linked to shifts in diet?

> A.P.: I do not know what to think about the above scenario if true. Did
> the first Rockthrowers and Stonethrowers need such a isolated and
> protected environment to develop Throwing to the point where they could
> make a living off of just simply throwing? I do not know. Perhaps an
> isolated environment accelerated the Throwing adaptation and where
> Throwing could not have had that focal point of accelerated evolution

You should borrow Crowley's magical islands, laboratories of new
adaptations.

> if apes in Africa of 12 to 8 million years ago started to throw. But
> what is clear is that once Throwing was advanced by Oreopithecus,

This is, "clear," is it?

> that
> the best environment to further advance throwing was the plains of
> Africa with its huge concentration of herd animals and plenty of rocks
> laying around and open sight.

Is that right?

> So Oreopithecus was the first Throwing
> for a Living primate

What does a "throwing for a living primate," throw at and how does this
enable him or her to make a living?  Be specific and explicit.  Enough
with this vague, "make a living," nonsense.

> who became Orrorin and would eventually become
> Humanity. So I wonder if a protected initial environment was needed to
> develop Throwing.

A protected environment?  How about Crowley's magical, predator free,
islands?
A. - 20 Nov 2006 03:14 GMT
> > A.P.: When a species makes Rockthrowing and Stonethrowing their primary
> > way of living, then canines will not be evolved but rather instead the
> > arms, hands and other bones for Throwing better.
>
> Oh, brother.  So it just never occurred to you that changes in tooth
> morphology can most parsimoniously be linked to shifts in diet?

Are shifts in diet most parsimoniously explained by changes in the
local
environment (supplies of various plants or animals), seasonality, or
some
other variable - such as a new skill or technique?   Don't we need more
information
to figure a reason for a change in diet?

> > A.P.: I do not know what to think about the above scenario if true. Did
> > the first Rockthrowers and Stonethrowers need such a isolated and
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> A protected environment?  How about Crowley's magical, predator free,
> islands?

Where is this "throwing for a living" hypothesis coming from, all of a
sudden?

It's not just this guy who is excited about oreopithecus -  did I miss
a news
story somewhere?

A.
Jim McGinn - 20 Nov 2006 04:49 GMT
> > > A.P.: When a species makes Rockthrowing and Stonethrowing their primary
> > > way of living, then canines will not be evolved but rather instead the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> seasonality, or some other variable - such as a new skill or
> technique?

Well, yes.  Shifts in diet tend to be associated with shifts in the
availability of resources and other competitive factors, like
predation.  And these shifts tend to be associated with shifts in
environment which tend to be associated with shifts in climate.   The
earliest years of hominid evolution, for example, tend to be associated
with a major shift in climate that introduces the Indian ocean monsoon
system which caused the emergence of savanna habitat.  It is the dry
season of this monsoon habitat that introduces the adaptive
complications that kicks off the process of hominid evolution.

> Don't we need more information to figure a reason
> for a change in diet?

Not if you understand evolution.

> > > A.P.: I do not know what to think about the above scenario if true. Did
> > > the first Rockthrowers and Stonethrowers need such a isolated and
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Where is this "throwing for a living" hypothesis coming from, all of a
> sudden?

This whack job comes out of the woodwook every time there's news in PA,
claiming that the latest evidence is consistent with his vague throwing
for a living notion.  It isn't a hypothesis.  It's an idea.

> It's not just this guy who is excited about oreopithecus -  did I miss
> a news
> story somewhere?
>
> A.
a_plutonium - 18 Nov 2006 07:50 GMT
I am beginning to really like the fact that Wikipedia is so "for free".
I always worry about other sources because of the etiquette rule of
quoting only a paragraph or two. But with Wikipedia, which I like so
much, I can quote the whole dog-gone kit and kaboodle and not worry
about copyrights and legal matters. Bravo to Wikipedia.

--- quoting Wikipedia as to their entry on Orrorin ---
Orrorin tugenensis
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Orrorin
Fossil range: Miocene
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae
Tribe: Hominini
Subtribe: Hominina
Genus: Orrorin
Senut et al, 2001
Species: O. tugenensis
Binomial name
Orrorin tugenensis
Senut et al, 2001

Orrorin tugenensis is considered as the second oldest possible hominin
ancestor related to modern humans (other than Sahelanthropus
tchadensis) and is the only species classified in genus Orrorin. The
name was given by the discoverers who found Orrorin fossils near the
village of Tugen, Kenya. By using radiometric dating techniques, the
volcanic tuffs where the fossils were found date to between 6.1 and 5.8
million years ago, during the Miocene. The fossils found so far come
from at least five individuals. They include a femur, suggesting that
Orrorin walked upright; a thick right humerus, suggestive of
tree-climbing skills but not brachiation; and teeth that suggest a diet
much like that of modern humans. The full molars and small canines
suggest that Orrorin ate mostly fruit and vegetables, with occasional
meat. Orrorin was about the size of a modern chimpanzee.

The team that found these fossils in 2000 was led by Martin Pickford.
Pickford claims that Orrorin is clearly a hominin; based on this, he
dates the split between hominins and other African great apes to at
least 7 million years ago. This date is markedly different from those
derived using the molecular clock approach.

If Orrorin proves to be a direct human ancestor, the australopithecines
such as Australopithecus afarensis ("Lucy") may be considered a side
branch of the hominid family tree: Orrorin is both earlier, by over 1.5
million years, and more similar to us than A. afarensis. The main
similarity is that the Orrorin humerus seem closer to H. sapiens in
comparison to Lucy's; there is, however, significant controversy over
this point, and other researchers assert that Pickford et al. gloss
over a number of uncertainties. Other fossils found in these rocks show
that Orrorin lived in a wooded environment, not the savanna assumed by
many theories of human evolution and, in particular, the origins of
bipedalism.

--- end quoting Wikipedia on Orrorin ---

Now I am fascinated by the fact that Oreopithecus, the swamp hominin,
lived some 2 million years before Orrorin and yet we have 50 fossil
individuals yet with Orrorin we have a mere 5 individuals. So the older
species is more common.

Now the above entry says that Orrorin's humerus was thick right
humerus. Can we compare that thickness with the Oreopithecus humeruses
found? Has anyone done that? This would be very important to the
Stonethrowing theory. And can we have a statistical research on the
thickness of various human races so that we have a range of thickness
for Throwing. If the humerus from Oreopithecus was from females then
they would be thinner than the males. So we may have a male Orrorin
humerus and female Oreopithecus humeruses.

And the fact that Orrorin lived in a wooded environment agrees with the
idea that Orrorin was a descendent of Oreopithecus up north who also
lived in a wooded environment. Throwing and Stonethrowing and
bipedalism entered the plains and grasslands of Africa only much later
than Orrorin simply because Throwing was insecure until bipedalism was
fully established and not awkward as with Oreopithecus and Orrorin.

Darwin's theory on bipedalism is grounded in the idea that the
savannahs were increasing and that forests were dying out. But what
Darwin failed to include in his picture of how bipedalism came about is
the behaviour of Throwing. It was not encroaching savannahs that
propelled bipedalism; it was the behaviour of Throwing to propelled the
changes in the legs to become bipedal.

So for the critics and skeptics of Orrorin not fitting into Darwin's
savannah theory, are simply wrong. Orrorin was bipedal, and because of
savannahs but because of Throwing. And that the throwing and bipedalism
of Orrorin was still too awkard to live in total grasslands. Give
Orrorin another 2 million years on the edge of grasslands with
increasing Throwing proficiency and increasing bipedal running and then
they could live totally in the grasslands.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
Jim McGinn - 18 Nov 2006 09:06 GMT
> Darwin's theory on bipedalism is grounded in the idea that the
> savannahs were increasing and that forests were dying out. But what
> Darwin failed to include in his picture of how bipedalism came about is
> the behaviour of Throwing. It was not encroaching savannahs that
> propelled bipedalism; it was the behaviour of Throwing to propelled the
> changes in the legs to become bipedal.

Idle speculation.  You speak like a propagandist, not a scientists.

> So for the critics and skeptics of Orrorin not fitting into Darwin's
> savannah theory, are simply wrong.

There is no such thing as, "Darwin's savannah theory."  Darwin was
forever stumped by hominid evolution.

> Orrorin was bipedal, and because of
> savannahs but because of Throwing.

Throwing what?  At whom? For how long?  In what habitat? To what
immediate benefit?

> And that the throwing and bipedalism
> of Orrorin was still too awkard to live in total grasslands.

Uh, whatever you say.

> Give
> Orrorin another 2 million years on the edge of grasslands with
> increasing Throwing proficiency and increasing bipedal running and then
> they could live totally in the grasslands.

Other than the one on the top of your head, do you have a point?
a_plutonium - 19 Nov 2006 11:06 GMT
--- quoting in part, Wikipedia on the subject of Sahelanthropus
tchadensis
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Perspective

The fossil skull TH 266, nicknamed "Touma?" ("hope of life" in the
local Goran language of Chad), may be a common ancestor of humans and
chimpanzees; most molecular clocks suggest humans and chimps diverged
1-2 million years after S. tchadensis (5 mya). The original placement
of this species as a human ancestor but not a chimpanzee ancestor
complicated the picture of the human family tree. In particular, if
Touma? is only a direct human ancestor, its facial features bring the
status of Australopithecus into doubt because the thickened brow ridges
are similar to later hominids, but not earlier ones. Another
possibility is that Touma? is anatomically related to both humans and
chimpanzees, but the ancestor of neither. Brigitte Senut, the
discoverer of Orrorin tugenensis, claims that the features of S.
tchadensis are consistent with a female proto-gorilla.

If Senut's claims are true the find would be especially significant;
there have been no chimp or gorilla ancestors to be found anywhere in
Africa and light would be shed on their family trees. What the find
does show is that the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees is
unlikely to resemble chimpanzees very much, as had been previously
supposed.
--- end quoting Wikipedia ---

Now unless I am misreading or misunderstanding the above, I interpret
that from Senut, that no ape fossils older than 6 million years have
been found in Africa, southern to Chad where S. tchadensis was found.
But that according to Oreopithecus, a treasure trove of apelike fossils
were found alongside Oreopithecus.

So what this suggests to me, anyway, is that not only did the line that
created humanity originate from Europe, but that apes originated from
Europe. So that the swamps of Italy of 12 to 8 million years ago were
highly evolving ape and human like creatures and nowhere on Earth did
apelike and humanlike creatures exist except for Italy. And amazing
that a "swamp" environment is so conducive to these higher primates. I
generally consider swampland as of low biological value, but apparently
swampland seems to have been the birthsite of ancient humanity and also
apes.

Now Orrorin was in Kenya some 6 million years ago and this S.
tchadensis was in Chad some 7-8 million years ago. And the distance
between Chad and Kenya is several thousands of kilometers. So does that
give us a reliable number for distance ventured by Tchadensis? Does
paleontology have some measure of a species migration through millions
of years of time? If Tchadensis was the parent of Orrorin, is that
about a reasonable rate of migration of the distance from Chad to Kenya
in 2 million years? Or is the rate of migration in 2 million years
vastly larger such as entire continents covered in 2 million years?

But the above comment by Senut that Tchadensis may have been a ape
ancestor makes me wonder why should ape fossils be nonexistant over
most of Africa? Why would ape fossils be common in Italy but rare in
Africa. And this then suggests that humanity could not have been
originated from Africa, absent ancient apes in Africa. I mean, it is
common sensical that if humanity and ape lines converged in the past
and since no apes existed in Africa in ancient past, then Africa could
not have been the cradle of humanity, but rather instead Italy.

Anthropology, like every science should stick to the facts and the
facts are that ancient ape fossils are common to Italy but nonexistant
in Africa. So the cradle for both apes and humans must have been Italy.

So if it took the apeline of Tchadensis to go from Sardinia to Chad in
2 million years and then for Tchadensis to go from Chad to Kenya and
become Orrorin, took another 2 million years, and so we get some sort
of math agreement of distance of migration and time taken.

And perhaps these ancient apes and humanlike creatures did not want to
venture from Kenya further south because they were not that skilled at
Stonethrowing to live on the grasslands without abundant trees.

But now I have to look into what the difference is between apes and
monkeys. And why every continent seems to have indigenous monkeys
except for NorthAmerica and Australia, yet apes are indigenous only to
Africa. What is the *genus* difference between monkeys and apes?

So that the picture seems to become one of a group of monkeys lived in
Italy in those isolated swamps such as Sardinia and where this group of
monkeys evolved into pre-apes. The geographical isolation of the swamps
of Sardinia created ape genus out of the monkey genus. This may have
happened some 15 to 10 million years ago. And then once the ape genus
was formed on Sardinia some 15-10 million years ago, one of those lines
became Oreopithecus which is a direct ancestor to humanity.

Amazing how swampland plays such a key role in human evolution if my
above is true. Perhaps it is the protected and secure that swamps
provide. But I would think that disease would be high in swampland. And
perhaps throwing had a special vantage point in swamplands compared to
other type of terrain.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
a_plutonium - 20 Nov 2006 04:35 GMT
> So if it took the apeline of Tchadensis to go from Sardinia to Chad in
> 2 million years and then for Tchadensis to go from Chad to Kenya and
> become Orrorin, took another 2 million years, and so we get some sort
> of math agreement of distance of migration and time taken.

I made a convenient mistake in that earlier post. I said apes are
indigenious to only Africa. I was wrong and forgot about orangutans and
other apes in Asia. So the orangutan offers us another calculation. If
the ancestral ape stock that would give rise to both apes and humanity
originated in Italy some 10 to 12 million years ago and would give rise
to Oreopithecus and Tchadensis and Orrorin in Sardinia to Chad to Kenya
which all three are about equidistant radius and each took about 2
million years.

Now, let us take a radius that maps orangutans in Asia from Sardinia
and in increments of 2 million years puts the Orangutan in Asia
starting with Sardinia after five increments of 2 million years.

So what I am saying is that the evolution of apes and humanity all
started in the swamps of Italy (Sardinia) some 12 to 10 million years
ago. The apes would come from this stock  as well as humanity. The
split from the ape lineage and the human lineage was due to a
behaviour--- Rockthrowing or Stonethrowing. Oreopithecus was a
Stonethrower and our earliest ancestor. Oreopithecus became Tchadensis
and lived in Chad region and would later become Orrorin having migrated
from Chad to Kenya. As Stonethrowing became more and more their way of
living they migrated onto the grasslands of Africa where they lived
totally on the plains and did not need to have trees for protection.
Millions of years later, this Stonethrower would migrate back north
into Europe and extinct all other hominid forms and species. The most
renowned extinction was that of Neanderthal. Neanderthal was a
Stonethrower also, but not an advanced and proficient stonethrower.

The proof in much of what I espouse in these writings will come from
genetics and the fossil finds will only add to the proof. The proof is
that the bones of human body have a focal point of "Throwing
Behaviour". What distinguishes human bones from chimpanzee and ape
bones is that our body was evolved for making a living by throwing
rocks and stones. The most telltale unique bone for throwing is the
wrist joint. In apes, the wrist joint is stiff and cannot bend 90
degrees, and apes are knucklewalkers. Human wrist bone can bend 90
degrees. The evolutionary changes of the wrist bone started in
Oreopithecus some 10 million years ago, where to become a Thrower of
rocks and stones required the wrists to be able to pick up, maneuver
and throw rocks and stones both overhand and underhand. Chimpanzees do
not throw overhand, they throw underhand like a sling.

Stonethrowing overhand requires the wrist bone to bend 90 degrees. And
once this throwing creature routinely threw, then it would also use
sticks and clubs. For a club is a rock thrown overhand at short
distance. Chimpanzees cannot pick up a boulder size rock  and lift it
overhead and to club something nearby. With the wrist bending, this
overhand clubbing or boulder smashing can be performed.

But not only the wrist bone had to change but many other bones had to
change to make our modern day human body. The key feature that
separates humanity from all other animals is that we are the first
animal to make Throwing our main way of living. It is Earth's first
tool that is a Weapon System. And Throwing propelled the changes to
make bipedalism and bigger brains and even language. So Throwing
created humanity out of primate ape stock.

And if there is life on alien planets in the cosmos, it is an easy bet
that all those alien advanced civilizations and species, all trace
their ancestors back to tree dwelling animals who began a behaviour of
throwing and thus evolved into a civilization.

And if there are aliens, since all of them were created from a
behaviour of Throwing, that they probably look very much like us in
body form. Because a tree dweller needs a skeleton and muscle system to
get around in trees are the same skeleton and muscle system that can
change easily to that of Throwing rocks and stones. No advanced
civilization will come of say fishes or aquatic environments or aerial
environments such as birds because there is no opportunity to pick up
rocks and stones and throw them for some advantage.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
 
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