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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / January 2007



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About fossil gaps

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karlis - 05 Jan 2007 20:07 GMT
Hi!

I am reading evolution vs. creation. I came up to an argument about
fossil gaps. Creationists say: "There are Big fossil gaps!"; then
Evolutionists say: "No! The gaps are Small!". OK, but what do they mean
by Big and Small? I mean, *in numbers*. The only page I found on
Internet where some percentage was written was
http://www.strengthsandweaknesses.org/Weaknesses/Fossil.Record.Gaps.htm
But the information is given only about primates. So, the questions are
-How many fossils of different species are found and how many are
supposed to be? (*in numbers*)
-And how the supposed amount was calculated?

Karlis
Gautam Majumdar - 05 Jan 2007 23:46 GMT
> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> supposed to be? (*in numbers*)
> -And how the supposed amount was calculated?

Size of the gaps are the measure of time. A big/long gap means that no
fossil of a particular clade has been recorded over a long period of time
though it has been recorded both before and after the gap. There are
several examples of such gaps related to specific clades but virtually all
the gaps are shrinking as more and more fossils are found and analysed.
The gaps are more of a result of poor preservation and poor finding than
true absence of that clade during the gap period.


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gautam

George - 06 Jan 2007 06:02 GMT
> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Karlis

This entire argument relates to transitional fossils.  It's a strawman
argument.  All fossils are transitional.

George
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 06 Jan 2007 19:04 GMT
> Hi!
>
> I am reading evolution vs. creation.

    There's your problem right there.  You're comparing a well-supported
historical phenomenon with an ex post facto system that claims to fit
the accumulated body of evidence, and then criticizes evolution because
the 100% of the evidence hasn't survived.
    The presence or size of the gaps is of no significance overall, if the
existing evidence supports the proposition.  That is why this is (as
George pointed out) a strawman.

Steve

 I came up to an argument about
> fossil gaps. Creationists say: "There are Big fossil gaps!"; then
> Evolutionists say: "No! The gaps are Small!". OK, but what do they mean
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Karlis

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Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

John Harshman - 06 Jan 2007 20:29 GMT
>>Hi!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> existing evidence supports the proposition.  That is why this is (as
> George pointed out) a strawman.

It would probably be good also to point out here that fossils are not
the main source of evidence for evolution.

>   I came up to an argument about
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>>Karlis
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 08 Jan 2007 19:57 GMT
>>>Hi!
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> It would probably be good also to point out here that fossils are not
> the main source of evidence for evolution.

    For the benefit of the ignorant (that's me) could you briefly outline
some others?
    I'm more aware of the obvious clinical manifestations (such as
development of bacterial resistance to antibiotics).
    Others?

Steve

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Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
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718-258-5001

John Harshman - 08 Jan 2007 22:22 GMT
>>>>Hi!
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> development of bacterial resistance to antibiotics).
>     Others?

The main evidence for common descent (which I consider the fun part of
evolution) comes from examination of extant species, especially and
lately their DNA. This is not a recent development. If you read the
Origin, you will find not all that much mention of fossils (and none of
DNA), with most of the evidence coming from morphology, development,
biogeography, etc. of extant species.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 09 Jan 2007 01:18 GMT
>>>It would probably be good also to point out here that fossils are not
>>>the main source of evidence for evolution.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> DNA), with most of the evidence coming from morphology, development,
> biogeography, etc. of extant species.

    Thanks.  I'm embarassed to say I've never read it--and I even watched
"Inherit the Wind" a week or so ago on PBS.  Time to catch up on my reading!

Steve

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718-258-5001

don kenney - 10 Jan 2007 14:50 GMT
> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Karlis

I'm probably going to get blasted for posting this, but what the hell,
they are only verbal bullets, not real ones.

First of all.  There IS, so far as I can see, no numerically consistent
model of evolution that is supported by fossil evidence.  That is not
to say that evolution is disproved.  It just says we have a lot yet to
learn.  It certainly doesn't say that Genesis contains a viable model
of creation.  Take an hour off and read Genesis 1-9 slowly and
carefully.  If you then think the story there is remotely plausible,
think about what sort of supporting evidence you would expect
Geologists to find while digging around.  You can then do or a little
research about what they actually find.  Or you can take my word for
it.  If Genesis is remotely correct, then the Bible omits the part when
God deliberately obsfucated the evidence to destroy any evidence that
supports the biblical story.

Second, the whole transitional fossil thing is due to a
misunderstanding.  Darwin published the Origin of Species a decade
before Gregor Mendel published the paper that is now regarded as the
foundation of modern genetics.  And no one paid much attention to
Mendel for a couple of decades.  The evidence of evolution which was
derived indpendently by Darwin and Wallace seemed -- and still seems --
quite convincing.  The mechanism that Darwin proposed -- gradual
inherited changes -- has been thoroughly discredited for more than half
a century.  In fact, almost every modern evolutionist (there is
probably an exception somewhere) believes that the mechanism behind
evolution is random mutation.

Third, species looks to be a lousy metric.  Genus (the next higher
level) is probably better, but still not great.  There is, again as far
as I can see, no generally accepted count of the number of modern
genera, much less fossil ones.  I've seen numberical estimates of
modern genera that range from 1 million (surely too low) to 40 million.
Counting fossil genera (or species) seems to be a very difficult job
that may be done satisfactorily someday, but hasn't been done yet.  Not
everything is preserved and fossils -- even from the same "site" --
often represent different times.  I'm not sure that it can't be done.
I'm pretty certain that it hasn't been done.

Fourth, there is fairly strong evidence that evolution does not proceed
at a constant rate.  In particular, there is something called the
Cambrian Explosion wherein a large number of animal body plans appeared
in a fairly short time period around 550 million years ago.  For some
reason that eludes me, some people don't like this and have tried to
present the evidence as some sort of sampling problem.  I have never
found their arguments to be very persuasive.  If, in fact, evolution
proceeds in jumps and starts, counting species isn't likely to yield
very useful results even if you can overcome all the other problems
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 10 Jan 2007 15:26 GMT
> I'm probably going to get blasted for posting this, but what the hell,
> they are only verbal bullets, not real ones.
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> proceeds in jumps and starts, counting species isn't likely to yield
> very useful results even if you can overcome all the other problems

    Other than not understanding what you mean by "numerically consistent
model of evolution"  I don't anything here to blast.

Steve

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Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

John Harshman - 10 Jan 2007 17:22 GMT
>>Hi!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> God deliberately obsfucated the evidence to destroy any evidence that
> supports the biblical story.

What does it mean to have a "numerically consistent model of evolution
that is supported by fossil evidence"? As far as I can tell, the fossil
record does not strongly constrain evolutionary models, and thus can't
be said to support one or another, nor can it be said to be inconsistent
with any of them.

> Second, the whole transitional fossil thing is due to a
> misunderstanding.  Darwin published the Origin of Species a decade
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> probably an exception somewhere) believes that the mechanism behind
> evolution is random mutation.

This is nonsense. Almost every modern evolutionist believes that the
mechanism behind adaptive evolution (there are other kinds, but that's
what you probably mean) is natural selection acting on random mutation.
And the random mutations in question are generally small changes of the
sort Darwin was speaking of. Where have you been for the past century?
When Mendel's laws were first discovered, there was a movement among
geneticists who thought that Darwin's theory of natural selection was
thereby disproved. But this movement disappeared when population
geneticists like Fisher, Haldane, Muller, and others showed that the two
could easily be reconciled -- the so-called "modern synthesis".

> Third, species looks to be a lousy metric.  Genus (the next higher
> level) is probably better, but still not great.  There is, again as far
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> often represent different times.  I'm not sure that it can't be done.
> I'm pretty certain that it hasn't been done.

And you should also note that "genus" is an arbitrary term with no
objective meaning. There is no objective measure of diversity. Even
species, real, biological species, can't be considered equivalent
entities, and we can't recognize biological species in the fossil record
anyway, only morphotypes.

> Fourth, there is fairly strong evidence that evolution does not proceed
> at a constant rate.  In particular, there is something called the
> Cambrian Explosion wherein a large number of animal body plans appeared
> in a fairly short time period around 550 million years ago.

Not actually clear, the fossil record being fragmentary and all. The
oldest diverse Cambrian fauna are around 530-520 million years old, e.g.
the Chengjiang. But we depend on rare lagerstatten for this information.
It's not clear how short the time period was -- and it depends also on
what you want to count. Remember that a majority of animal phyla have no
pre-Quaternary fossil record.

> For some
> reason that eludes me, some people don't like this and have tried to
> present the evidence as some sort of sampling problem.  I have never
> found their arguments to be very persuasive.  If, in fact, evolution
> proceeds in jumps and starts, counting species isn't likely to yield
> very useful results even if you can overcome all the other problems

Interesting musings, though I'm not sure they're at all relevant to the
OP's post.
don kenney - 13 Jan 2007 12:40 GMT
***What does it mean to have a "numerically consistent model of
evolution
that is supported by fossil evidence"? As far as I can tell, the fossil
record does not strongly constrain evolutionary models, and thus can't
be said to support one or another, nor can it be said to be
inconsistent
with any of them.***

It means roughly what it says.  Specifically, try to get the fossil
record -- with or without allowing for extinction events to match a
model of simple exponential growth in number of taxa.  The equation for
exponential growth is pretty simple N = R ^ T where N is the number of
anything.  R is the growth rate (well OK, for the literal minded, it's
really 1 + the growth rate i.e a growth rate of 1% per unit time would
be experessed as 1.01).  T is time.  One equation in two unknowns.
Given two data points, it should be possible to determine the rate at
which new new taxa are being created.  So pick a value for the Lower
Cambrian -- say 500 taxa (which seems low) and a value for today say
5,000,000 taxa.  That implies a growth rate of about 1.0000000176.
Which says that the number of taxa doubles roughly roughly every 5.68
million years.  So when was there only one taxon? I make it somewhere
before 1000ma.

The fossil record OTOH would seem to indicate that metazoans appeared
later and diversified much more rapidly than that.  You can try
juggling the numbers, allowing for extinction events, etc.  My very
cursory efforts lead me to believe that any model that matches the
fossil record is way too contrived to be credible.  Neither do I think
(could be wrong) that magic with fractal distributions, etc is going to
create a model that looks all that much better.

I'm sure that I'm not the only person to try this approach.  If the
numbers actually could be made to work plausibly, I think a numerical
model of evolution would be a standard element of paleontology.

So, I think that, The problem isn't that evolution isn't constrained.
It's that we don't understand the constraint.

===

I agree that number of genera is a sloppy metric, but I submit that it
is better than number of species.  At least genera usually differ in
some meaningful way -- which tends not to be as true of "species".  And
I'm skeptical that this is a problem where cladistics can help although
maybe a decent mathematician (which I certainly am not) can come up
with a tool.  In any case, cladistics clearly has some troubles when
the relationships between taxa are a (near) total mystery as tends to
be increasingly the case in the Atdbanian and before.  Even if we don't
understand the relationships, we can still make possibly useful counts
of how many distinct kinds of critters appear to have existed..

===

***Not actually clear, the fossil record being fragmentary and all. The
oldest diverse Cambrian fauna are around 530-520 million years old,
e.g.
the Chengjiang. But we depend on rare lagerstatten for this
information.
It's not clear how short the time period was -- and it depends also on
what you want to count. Remember that a majority of animal phyla have
no
pre-Quaternary fossil record.***

The Maotsianshan Shale gets a lot of publicity because there are so
many taxa and they are so well preserved.  But there are many other
Early Cambrian and older sites -- with more being found every year.
With a few exceptions like the presence of vertebrates, I don't think
our view of the Early Cambrian would be greatly different without the
Chengjiang fauna.  Also, I personally think that the rules of fossil
preservation probably changed significantly around 550 million years
ago with the advent of active sediment feeders and the destruction of
widespread microbial mats.  My guess is that Ediacaran fossils will
probably prove eventually to be substantially more common than we think
now.  But they will be faint, difficult to interpret, and largely
lacking in complex features that help in differentiation of taxa.
There are organic looking structures on bedding planes in the less
altered exposures of my local Ediacaran formation, but I'll be damned
if I can tell you what kind of plants or animals they might represent.

***This is nonsense. Almost every modern evolutionist believes that the
mechanism behind adaptive evolution (there are other kinds, but that's
what you probably mean) is natural selection acting on random mutation.
And the random mutations in question are generally small changes of the
sort Darwin was speaking of. Where have you been for the past century?
***

John, the proper order is Ready, Aim, Fire.  Not Ready, Fire, Aim.
What I said was that Darwin was wrong about how changes occur -- which
he was.  I did not say that Evolution en toto had been disproved.  Nor
do I think that.

As for mutations being small steps.  Not really that clear.  Most
aren't visible at all.  (And, for that matter, most surely are lethal).
But the mutation mechanism permits much larger changes than gradual
change.  If anything, this supports evolution as it allows for large
enough changes to matter.  Not that big a deal nowdays I think, but
maybe important in the Ediacaran and Lower Cambrian when there seems to
have been quite remarkable (by modern standards) diversification in a
relatively short time span.

***I'm not sure they're at all relevant to the OP's post. ***

Nor, in retrospect, am I.
John Harshman - 13 Jan 2007 16:05 GMT
> ***What does it mean to have a "numerically consistent model of
> evolution
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> record -- with or without allowing for extinction events to match a
> model of simple exponential growth in number of taxa.

A model of growth in taxon numbers is quite another thing from a "model
of evolution".

> The equation for
> exponential growth is pretty simple N = R ^ T where N is the number of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Cambrian -- say 500 taxa (which seems low) and a value for today say
> 5,000,000 taxa.

What exactly do you mean by "taxa"? Do you mean species? Or something else?

> That implies a growth rate of about 1.0000000176.
> Which says that the number of taxa doubles roughly roughly every 5.68
> million years.  So when was there only one taxon? I make it somewhere
> before 1000ma.

This is not a good model. You have to consider both origination and
extinction. Your model assumes no extinction. That would be, if
anything, only one "taxon" with living descendants; there would have
been many other taxa at the time. Look up "coaleascence".

> The fossil record OTOH would seem to indicate that metazoans appeared
> later and diversified much more rapidly than that.  You can try
> juggling the numbers, allowing for extinction events, etc.  My very
> cursory efforts lead me to believe that any model that matches the
> fossil record is way too contrived to be credible.

No? Try Sepkoski's logistic model. It seems to fit fairly well. However,
it fits not a single curve, but three separate ones for three different
fauna. This is not to say that diversification is really random, with
constant parameters. But it can be surprisingly hard to show that it isn't.

> Neither do I think
> (could be wrong) that magic with fractal distributions, etc is going to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> numbers actually could be made to work plausibly, I think a numerical
> model of evolution would be a standard element of paleontology.

Again, this would be a numerical model of only a small part of
evolution, the growth in number of species over time. But you want to
look up the work of Dave Raup and Jack Sepkoski, among others.

> So, I think that, The problem isn't that evolution isn't constrained.
> It's that we don't understand the constraint.

Growth in diversity is not the sort of evolution we were previously
talking about. "Constraint" is generally used in reference to
morphological change, what's generally called disparity, in contrast to
diversity, which is just numbers of species.

> ===
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> our view of the Early Cambrian would be greatly different without the
> Chengjiang fauna.

I think you would find it hard to support this. Are there other
localities with body fossils of armored lobopods, for example?

> Also, I personally think that the rules of fossil
> preservation probably changed significantly around 550 million years
> ago with the advent of active sediment feeders and the destruction of
> widespread microbial mats.

Makes sense. There are other theories too. Are you familiar with
Butterfield, N.J. Secular distribution of Burgess-Shale-type
preservation. Lethaia 28, 1-13 (1995)?

> My guess is that Ediacaran fossils will
> probably prove eventually to be substantially more common than we think
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> altered exposures of my local Ediacaran formation, but I'll be damned
> if I can tell you what kind of plants or animals they might represent.

Quite possible.

> ***This is nonsense. Almost every modern evolutionist believes that the
> mechanism behind adaptive evolution (there are other kinds, but that's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> he was.  I did not say that Evolution en toto had been disproved.  Nor
> do I think that.

Nor did I claim you thought that. I just said you were wrong about
Darwin being wrong on this one point. And you are.

> As for mutations being small steps.  Not really that clear.  Most
> aren't visible at all.  (And, for that matter, most surely are lethal).

No. Where do you get this idea? Most are neutral.

>  But the mutation mechanism permits much larger changes than gradual
> change.  If anything, this supports evolution as it allows for large
> enough changes to matter.  Not that big a deal nowdays I think, but
> maybe important in the Ediacaran and Lower Cambrian when there seems to
> have been quite remarkable (by modern standards) diversification in a
> relatively short time span.

I was just pointing out that the objection you had stated was bogus.
That doesn't rule out the possibility of macromutations. But in fact
very few modern biologists credit any such thing. Your statement (which
you snipped) was just wrong on many counts, as I noted.

I note that you have once again confused diversity (number of species)
with disparity (extent of morphological differences). Nor is it clear
that we need any mechanism other than natural selection of small
mutations to account for the Cambrian explosion.

> ***I'm not sure they're at all relevant to the OP's post. ***
>
> Nor, in retrospect, am I.
 
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