Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Biology
BiologyBotanyMicrobiologyEntomologyEvolutionPaleontology
Chemistry
General ChemistryAnalytical ChemistryElectrochemistryOrganic Synthesis
Earth Science
GeologyMineralogyOceanographyMeteorologyEarthquakes
Physics
General PhysicsResearchRelativityParticle PhysicsElectromagnetismFusionOpticsAcousticsNew Theories

Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / August 2007



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

OOTI

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Marc Verhaegen - 05 Jun 2007 22:33 GMT
Op 05-06-2007 10:00, paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com
<paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com> schreef:

>>>> http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/04.14/01-toumai.html
...
>>> Mario,
>>> Perhaps of interest regarding AAT and OOTI (which appear to deal
>>> with some of the same questions and data,) Toumai was discovered at
>>> what appears to have been the edge of a very large lake (Lake
>>> Chad.)  The area has reportedly not been excavated very thoroughly.
>>> A few links:
>>> http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/chad.php
>>> http://www.answers.com/topic/lake-chad
>>> http://www.answers.com/topic/history-of-chad
>>> I can easily see how a population adapted to life near bodies of
>>> water (SE Asian islands or elsewhere,) upon migrating, might be
>>> attracted to similar environments, particularly, another body of
>>> water, in this case, Lake Chad.  Reportedly, Lake Chad has dried up
>>> a few times in prehistory, and such dry spells may have spurred
>>> further migration and evolutionary change/divergence, perhaps
>>> helping to explain the present states of gorillas and chimpanzees.
>>> --Dan
...
>> Is there a possibility that Lake Chad
>> was once connected (through rivers or so) to the sea (Med?)? --Marc

> I don't know.  I haven't found anything to indicate that, but it's
> possible.  There are tributaries leading to Lake Chad today, at
> least during some times (rainy seasons, I think.)  Hominids could
> have followed the rivers regardless of which way the water was
> flowing, but they may have had to travel inland a bit, to find the
> headwaters of one of the rivers. --Dan

>> OOTI = out of the islands?

> Yes.  The SE Asian islands, specifically.

>> How do you see this?

> I've been posting about it in bits and pieces, for a while now.  All
> of those posts should be at my Flores Man group, here:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Flores_Man/

OK, thanks.

> There is a convergence of separate pieces of evidence which lead me
> to postulate OOTI.  Some of these don't fit well with the "modern
> apes and humans all evolved in Africa" model.  A couple examples:
> Orangutan fossils dating as far back as 13.5 million years have been
> found in Thailand.

Pongid fossils: Khoratpithecus, you mean? I didn't know it was that old, but
Lufengpithecus, another pongid, but from China, is that old AFAIK.

>  That lineage apparently has mandibular
> morphology more similar to modern orangutans (lack of an anterior
> digastric muscle, specifically,) than to the mainland fossils
> previously described as orangutan ancestors.  It appears that the
> Thai fossils are more likely to be true orangutan ancestors, and
> their age places them nearly as old as the putative DNA-derived
> human-orangutan divergence.

Yes, but probably 15 Ma or so, hominids went West (Pierolapith, Dryopith,
Samburup, Ouranopith, Oreopith, Sahelanthr, Orrorin, Ardip, apiths,
Homo...), pongids East (Khoratp, Lufengp, Sivap, Gigantop, Pongo...). This
predates the Homo/Pan split +-5 Ma.

> Then there is also LB1 (the H floresiensis type specimen,) and a
> whole suite of features that seem to be island-adapted (and can be
> rationally explained as being adaptive in SE Asian island
> environments, including Komodo dragons.  We also have the Toumai
> specimen, which apparently was very precocious, when viewed through
> the lens of the conventional "all African origins" paradigm.  Toumai
> had teeth more similar to modern humans (and LB1) than to African
> apes, facial structure also more similar to ours (and to LB1,) and
> was reportedly bipedal (judging by the morphology at the spinal
> attachment point at the base of the skull.)

Yes, but very likely a lot of early hominids (starting with Oreop?) were
(short-legged parttime) bipeds, and possibly some sort of bipedalism was a
lot older, even common hominoids: gibbons (cf.great/lesser ape split +-18
Ma?) walk bipedally over branches & all apes tend to truncal erectness &
occasionally walk bipedally.
(IOO, this short-legged parttime bipedalism was often wading-climbing in
coastal forests or so.)

> Then there is reasoning which states that early, gracile, bipedal
> (or semi-bipedal) hominids, accustomed to dealing with an island
> environment and Komodo dragons as predators, may have been forced
> into drastic changes when faced (upon migration) with mainland
> predators like the big cats.  Early bipeds, perhaps just becoming
> proficient with wooden spears and the like, may not have been able
> to cope with the big cats, in that way.  They may have been forced
> down other paths, ultimately to become today's gorillas and
> chimpanzees (more brute force on the gorilla side, and a combination
> of brute force and arboreal locomotion on the chimpanzee side.)
> Incidentally, bonobos are more gracile and bipedal than the other
> chimps, perhaps bonobos are closer to the ancestral state (human-
> chimp last common ancestor.)
> Specimens and groups that appear to run contrary to a
> mainlandized/Africanized hominoid morphology, and appear to
> represent a different morphological cluster, include:
> Toumai
> Australopithecus africanus
> bonobos
> LB1 (from Flores Island)
> Liang Toge (also from Flores Island)
> modern humans
> orangutans (in some respects, but they've had to deal with big cats
> on the islands recently (last few million years))
> gibbons (in some respects; also have had to deal with big cats on
> the islands recently)

>> when? SE.Asia? which species?

> Perhaps earlier than the human-gibbon split, or if not, sometime
> before the human-orangutan split.  The placement of orangutan
> ancestry in SE Asia, and both gibbons and orangutans being present
> there, are important clues.  As are trends indicating that chimps,
> gorillas and robust Australopiths are outliers when compared to the
> island-adapted lineages, and mounting evidence that gorillas and
> chimps are descended from Australopiths.

:-)  
See my Hum.Evol.papers
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html

> OOTI appears to involve
> multiple radiations out of the islands, Toumai's population perhaps
> being one of the earliest.  As for which species, I think multiple
> species developed on the islands, over more than 15 million years
> (perhaps more than 20 million years,) some branches being (today)
> gibbons, orangutans, gorillas and chimps (may have been one or two
> radiations, recall the genetic evidence for a later human-chimp
> hybridization after the initial split,) and what we call modern
> humans (though we may not be so "inbred" as OoA proponents seem to
> believe; the CNV (Copy Number Variation) data may paint a vastly
> different picture.  Yet I digress.)

18 Ma, when Afro-Arabia was approaching Eurasia geologically, a lot of
island archipels formed between the 2 continents (first phase of mountain
building: Alps etc.). If early hominoids were coastal or at least swamp
forest dwellers, as we think on comparative grounds (google "aquarboreal"),
no wonder that a few early ape fossils have been found in coastal sediments
(Saudi ape Heliopith=Afropith +-17 Ma, Griphopith from Devinska Nova Ves
+-15 Ma (earliest ape fossils in Eurasia : Engelswies in the German Alps
?Griphopith +-18 Ma) & much later Oreopith) or in swamp forests (eg,
Dryopith, Lufengpith, Oreopith) & that all Mio-Pliocene hominids-pongids
come from well-watered & well-wooded regions.
IOW, I don't think you have situate OOTI in SE.Asia (although certainly not
impossible), but more generally in the Tethys Sea incl.the Med.Sea?

>> what is the difference with AAT? Etc.

> As far as I can tell, the two overlap in some ways, yet are
> different in others.  OOTI is concerned with island adaptation (and
> isolation,) including Wallace Line considerations, and all the
> factors and forces associated with those islands, and islands in
> general.  The mainland Miocene Apes appear to have gone extinct, and
> been replaced by radiation(s) from the SE Asian islands (for
> instance, something like Toumai migrated to the mainland, and
> gradually evolved into something like Australopithecus afarensis,
> and eventually into today's gorillas.)  What may have caused the
> mainland Miocene Apes to go extinct?  Perhaps a combination of
> things, including changing environment, increasing predation
> pressure (including from the big cats,) and perhaps the introduction
> of diseases that evolved among the island dwelling primates.
> (Recall the lack of resistance the Native Americans had to Old World
> evolved diseases.)  I think that diseases have probably caused
> extinction events, essentially single-handedly, more than once
> throughout evolutionary history.

Some PAs (McCrossin, Pickford...) think the hominids (sensu
Pan+Homo+Gorilla) descend from Afr.apes (the late-Miocene Afr.fossil record
being very incomplete).
Others (Begun...) think they descend from European apes (Dryop, Ouranop...).
Possibly pongids had Eastern-Tethys ancestors, hominids Western-Tethys
ancestors (both groups having been coastal forest dwellers)? = OOTI.

> I haven't put all of my OOTI ideas together into one document, yet.
> I plan to do so sometime soon.

Please let us know when you do.
...
> Another aspect of OOTI is, it appears to be the most parsimonious way
> (that I'm aware of) to explain the morphological features of LB1.  LB1
> is like modern humans in some ways, like erectines in other ways,
> Australopiths in other ways, like gorillas in other ways (including
> the ear bone morphology,) and like gibbons in still other ways.  It
> veritably screams "ancient ancestral lineage," and an isolated island
> environment is just such a place, where a lineage could be preserved
> with very little morphological change, for millions of years.

Excellent points IMO.

> I think
> LB1 truly represents a relict, very ancient, "elder race."
> Incidentally, LB1 looks just like what the "Walking on Trees" article
> depicts as the likely ancestral state.  LB1 has a combination
> arboreal / terrestrial bipedal morphology, and I think it's most
> likely LB1 could wade, as well.  Aside from food gathering issues,
> have you ever heard of a Komodo dragon attacking something in the
> water?  I haven't. --Dan
...
> A few more points.  As others have noted, gorilla and chimp knuckle-
> walking is unlikely to be the ancestral state.

:-)
See my Hum.Evol.papers
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html

>  Interestingly,
> orangutans and gibbons, when on the ground, travel bipedally.  Their
> answer to the big cats appears to be, mainly, an acrobatic arboreal
> one.  (Unlike the brawnier gorilla and chimp strategies.)  SE Asian
> islands have only had big cats for about 2 million years, whereas the
> mainland has had them for much longer (around 30 million years, and
> cat-like predators for even longer.)  Different predators to contend
> with, different overall environments, random factors, and a cessation
> of interbreeding (we no longer breed with chimps and gorillas, anyway)
> leads to different evolutionary paths.  The chimps and gorillas are
> unlikely to have always been that way.  DNA studies have recently
> revealed that chimps have lost a lot of genes, since the human-chimp
> divergence, and I think that's consistent with a drastic change in
> environment/niche and a sort of catastrophic failure (in the new
> environment) of their previous survival strategies and morphology.
> What else would cause chimps to lose so many genes?
> Also, as the new "Hobbit" book by Morwood and Oosterzee notes and
> explains, SE Asia has not been appropriately excavated, to detect
> early hominids.  The excavations have always been stopped after the
> earliest signs of "modern humans" (around or before 60,000 years of
> age.)  This was even the case in Liang Bua, but luckily, the same dig
> was continued much deeper, and that's how H floresiensis (LB1, et al)
> were discovered.  LB1 and the Thai orangutan fossils are most likely
> just the very tip of the proverbial iceberg.  Let us hope that deeper
> digs in SE Asia will be the norm from now on.  At least back to the
> 800,000 year level, which is when a hugely catastrophic meteor event
> occurred, turning much of the region's surface soil (even parts of the
> mainland) to glass.  I expect that, before 800,000 years ago, SE Asia
> would easily have rivaled Africa as an epicenter of primate
> diversity.  I think it will probably turn out exceed the African
> hominoid/hominid legacy, at least in age (judging by the orangutan and
> gibbon evidence.)  --Dan

Well possible.

> Note, I forwarded my responses to the Paleoanthro group.  Someone
> there is currently trying to prevent my posting further on these
> topics.  Here is his complaint (poster's name omitted here):
> -begin quote-
> I would just like to comment on Dan's recent posts re the so-called
> OOTI or "Out-Of-The-Islands" hypothesis. From what I can tell, the
> use
> of this acronym dates back to message 16137 on 27 Feb this year, & it
> seems to be Dan's own pet theory.
> The Paleoanthro guidelines allow for "alternatives to presently
> accepted views, when well researched and presented in a verifiable
> format" but discourage "alternative theories". In my opinion, and it
> is only my opinion, "OOTI" as so far presented by Dan is incompatible
> with these guidelines.
> However if others don't share my view, I will keep silent...
> -end quote-

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who they banned.
Inquisition. Not very scientific...

> Of course, I replied.  Here is my reply:
> -begin quote-
> Is this some sort of "ignore the white elephant in the room"
> approach? I hope not. Please, there are specimens (including
> orangutan dating as far back as 13.5 million years in Thailand) and
> morphological affinities that really should be addressed, especially
> in light of emerging evidence and papers ("Walking on Trees," the
> report that LB1's ear bone morphology is closer to gorilla and chimp
> than to erectus and HSS,) and I don't think we've seen the end of
> this. Are we to just keep our mouths shut, as new evidence comes
> forth, and not try to interpret it? I hope not.
> -end quote-
> Is this a case of:
> 1. orthodoxy ("old boys network") not tolerating serious challenges,
> 2. "Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre
> minds," as Albert Einstein said, or
> 3. is the poster right, and I should shut up as I have no valid
> point?  --Dan
...
> In case anyone's interested, here's the complete quote from old Albert:
> "Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds.
> The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to
> bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express
> his opinions courageously and honestly."
> Albert Einstein, quoted in New York Times, March 13, 1940
> US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)
> I couldn't agree more.  :-)       --Dan
...
> For the record, I describe OOTI as a set of hypotheses, not as a
> theory.  It's too early for it to be a theory, but if the trend keeps
> up (of emerging evidence supporting, rather than refuting, it,) it
> would eventually become a theory.  (As long as it wasn't suppressed
> somehow, I suppose.  Probably too late for that, thank goodness.)  :-)
> --Dan

Thanks, Dan, AFAICS, AAT & OOTI stronlgy overlap & supplement each other.

--Marc Verhaegen
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Symposium.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
Sylvia Knörr - 06 Jun 2007 00:56 GMT
> Op 05-06-2007 10:00, paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com
> <paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com> schreef:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> > Yes.  The SE Asian islands, specifically.

<snip for brevity>

> --Marc Verhaegen
> http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
> http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Symposium.html
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
----------------------

Here's something to support the litoral origin of man over the savannah
origin:
http://www2.biologie.fu-berlin.de/humanbio/

This may not be exactly "out of the islands", but points to the same
direction. It all makes sense that humans first emerged from a coast
dwelling ancestor.
Marc Verhaegen - 06 Jun 2007 11:01 GMT
Op 06-06-2007 01:56, in artikel f44t79$cfl$02$1@news.t-online.com, Sylvia
Knörr <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@t-online.de> schreef:

>> Op 05-06-2007 10:00, paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com
>> <paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com> schreef:
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> direction. It all makes sense that humans first emerged from a coast
> dwelling ancestor.

Yes, thank a lot, Sylvia: it's Carsten Niemitz's amphibische
Generalistenhypothese.  Very well compatible with AAT & OOTI.

--Marc
Lee Olsen - 06 Jun 2007 21:54 GMT
Message-ID: <1124565262.379006.215260@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Jason Eshleman: "But since you asked, fossils do not indicate that
humans were tied to a maritime ecology for the duration of the time
you are suggesting. There is ample evidence of some of the traits you
argue for (e.g. 'linear build' and 'reduced climbing' beginning long
before your 1.8mybp diaspora). This is fossil evidence that
contradicts your scenario in terms of its ability to explain anything.
There is ample evidence of humans engaging in inland ecologies,
exploiting resources that are not aquatic. You are asking for someone
to contradict something that you've not made a case for. You are
asking someone to prove a negative. This isn't science, though I
suspect you don't know what science is and as such will continue your
mentally ill diatribes."

Thanks Jason for pointing out the deficiencies in Marcs posting.
Someday he will realize on-the-ground evidence is not trumped by
imagination (read comparative).

> Op 06-06-2007 01:56, in artikel f44t79$cfl$0...@news.t-online.com, Sylvia
> Kn?rr <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSp...@t-online.de> schreef:
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> Yes, thank a lot, Sylvia: it's Carsten Niemitz's amphibische
> Generalistenhypothese.  Very well compatible with AAT & OOTI.

> --Marc- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Marc Verhaegen - 06 Jun 2007 23:33 GMT
Op 06-06-2007 22:54, in artikel
1181163278.116486.290510@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com, Lee Olsen
<paleocity@hotmail.com> schreef:

> Message-ID: <1124565262.379006.215260@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
>  Jason Eshleman: "But since you asked, fossils do not indicate that
> humans were tied to a maritime ecology for the duration of the time
> you are suggesting.

??  
What time am I suggesting??
What have fossils to do with comparative evidence??

> There is ample evidence of some of the traits you
> argue for (e.g. 'linear build' and 'reduced climbing' beginning long
> before your 1.8mybp diaspora).

1.8 Ma??
Don't you even know H & P split +-5 Ma??

Inform a bit:
AAT is based on the behavior-anatomy-physiology-DNA of living humans vs.
chimps & other animals.  Sea/lake-side ancestors collecting coconuts,
fruits, bird eggs, turtles, shell-, crayfish, algae etc. explains unique
Homo traits (not seen in apes or australopiths) better than plains- or
forest-dwelling : brain size, diving skills, breath control, vocality, small
mouth & chewing muscles, tongue bone descent, longer airway, projecting
nose, poor sense of smell, handiness, tool use, late puberty, long legs,
aligned body, poor climbing, fur loss, fatness, high needs of water, sodium,
iodine & poly-unsaturated fatty acids etc.
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Symposium.html
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Verhaegen.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT

> This is fossil evidence that
> contradicts your scenario in terms of its ability to explain anything.

No nonsense, man.

> There is ample evidence of humans engaging in inland ecologies,
> exploiting resources that are not aquatic.

So??  Even if so, this does not contradict AAT. Stop neglecting the
physiological - anatomical - comparative evidence!

> You are asking for someone
> to contradict something that you've not made a case for. You are
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Someday he will realize on-the-ground evidence is not trumped by
> imagination (read comparative).

Blablabla...
Poor fools.


>> Op 06-06-2007 01:56, in artikel f44t79$cfl$0...@news.t-online.com, Sylvia
>> Knörr <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSp...@t-online.de> schreef:
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
Lee Olsen - 07 Jun 2007 04:09 GMT
> Op 06-06-2007 22:54, in artikel
> 1181163278.116486.290...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com, Lee Olsen
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> ??  
> What time am I suggesting??

Since you don't have any evidence to support any of your claims, does
it matter?

> What have fossils to do with comparative evidence??

What does comparative evidence have to do with the null hypothesis?

> > There is ample evidence of some of the traits you
> > argue for (e.g. 'linear build' and 'reduced climbing' beginning long
> > before your 1.8mybp diaspora).
>
> 1.8 Ma??
> Don't you even know H & P split +-5 Ma??

Let's see now, H&P spit +_5 Ma,  so H went into the water and came out
on the savanna, catching antelope, eating meat, and sweating a lot,
all in 2.4 My. There isn't time for both, and Gona is real, not
imaginary----you lose.

> Inform a bit:

Someone will have to, you sure don't make any sense.

> AAT is based on the behavior-anatomy-physiology-DNA of living humans vs.
> chimps & other animals.

IOW, imagination.

>  Sea/lake-side ancestors collecting coconuts,
> fruits, bird eggs, turtles, shell-, crayfish, algae etc.

No evidence for coconuts, shell-, crayfish or algae.

However, there is evidence on the savanna for eggs, tortoise.

>explains unique
> Homo traits (not seen in apes or australopiths) better than plains- or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> aligned body, poor climbing, fur loss, fatness, high needs of water, sodium,
> iodine & poly-unsaturated fatty acids etc.http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Symposium.htmlhttp://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvane
ech/Verhaegen.htmlhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT

Explaining something without evidence isn't anything more than
imagination. The null hypothesis is
Gona = 2.6 = core tools = ostrich = tortoise = antelope = savanna =
null until someone proves otherwise, not imagines coconuts.  Got it?

> > This is fossil evidence that
> > contradicts your scenario in terms of its ability to explain anything.
>
> No nonsense, man.

Explain how core tools got on savanna before coconut evidence shows up
if we don't urinate so well?

> > There is ample evidence of humans engaging in inland ecologies,
> > exploiting resources that are not aquatic.
>
> So??  Even if so, this does not contradict AAT. Stop neglecting the
> physiological - anatomical - comparative evidence!

There is no coconuts and there is no comparative evidence, just
because you imagine it doesn't make it so.

> > You are asking for someone
> > to contradict something that you've not made a case for. You are
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Blablabla...
> Poor fools.

Blabla? A diatribe, just as Jason predicted.
Marc Verhaegen - 07 Jun 2007 22:24 GMT
Op 07-06-2007 05:09, in artikel
1181185791.038093.101430@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com, Lee Olsen
<paleocity@hotmail.com> schreef:

>> Op 06-06-2007 22:54, in artikel
>> 1181163278.116486.290...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com, Lee Olsen
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>> humans were tied to a maritime ecology for the duration of the time
>>> you are suggesting.

>> ??  
>> What time am I suggesting??

> Since you don't have any evidence to support any of your claims, does
> it matter?

IOW, Eshleman is talking blabla: "duration of the time you are
suggesting"???

>> What have fossils to do with comparative evidence??
>
> What does comparative evidence have to do with the null hypothesis?

What null hypothesis? OOTI?

>>> There is ample evidence of some of the traits you
>>> argue for (e.g. 'linear build' and 'reduced climbing' beginning long
>>> before your 1.8mybp diaspora).

>> 1.8 Ma??
>> Don't you even know H & P split +-5 Ma??
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> all in 2.4 My. There isn't time for both, and Gona is real, not
> imaginary----you lose.

This is the greatest nonsense I've ever seen:
1) Discern between "Homo" & "our ancestors".
2) Our ancestors did not "went into the water".
3) They certainly did not "came out on the savanna".
4) Well possible somebody butchered antelope, but not caught, you fool.
5) You don't know anything on whether they nor whether our ancestors sweat
2.4 Ma, you imbecile.
6) "There isn't time for both"??  You idiot.
7) Gona does not contradict AAT.

Bah! Are youy really too stupid to say something sensible??

______


>> Inform a bit:
>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> Blabla? A diatribe, just as Jason predicted.
Lee Olsen - 08 Jun 2007 02:28 GMT
> Op 07-06-2007 05:09, in artikel
> 1181185791.038093.101...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com, Lee Olsen
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Bah! Are youy really too stupid to say something sensible??

No evidence = no answer = name calling. That is the only argument
Verhaegin will ever have.

Tobias: "Our ability to concentrate our urine is poor & too low and
if ever
our earliest ancestors were savannah dwellers, we must have been the
worst,
the most profligate urinators there."

Please, lions did not make the tools found where you say Homo could
not have lived. Why do you insist on ignoring smoking-gun evidence and
try to replace it with comparative evidence that is proven wrong? No
coconuts, try a cut-marked bone.

> ______
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Marc Verhaegen - 08 Jun 2007 11:42 GMT
Peter Andrews

A New Human: The Startling Discovery and Strange Story of
the "Hobbits" of Flores, Indonesia. Mike Morwood and Penny van
Oosterzee. xiv + 256 pp. Smithsonian Books, 2007. $25.95.

The discovery of a new hominin species in human ancestry is always
exciting, never more so than when it is completely unexpected. And
certainly no one anticipated that the fossil remains of such a
species would be found in 2003 in Liang Bua, a limestone cave on the
Indonesian island of Flores. But that year a team of archaeologists,
anthropologists and geologists from Australia and Indonesia working
at Liang Bua uncovered the bones of a tiny woman, whom they
eventually concluded was a hominin of a new species, Homo
floresiensis. That bold claim has ignited considerable controversy
among paleo-anthropologists.

[Photo captioned, "click for full image and caption." The larger
version is a photo of the LB1 skeleton laid out, and the caption
is, "This near-complete skeleton, recovered during the
archaeological excavation of Liang Bua cave on the Indonesian island
of Flores in September 2003, is believed to be that of a small-
bodied, small-brained adult female who lived about 18,000 years ago
and may represent a distinct hominin species.  From _A New Human_."]

Now one of the members of the team that found the specimen, Mike
Morwood, has written a book titled A New Human, with science writer
Penny van Oosterzee as coauthor. Their fascinating account of how
the large-scale, multidisciplinary excavation was set up and run
shows just how such an investigation should be conducted. They cover
everything: the preliminary groundwork to find out who has to be
approached to get permissions, with all the politics and
administrative matters that are an unavoidable adjunct to such forms
of scientific inquiry; the actual business of excavation and the
dating of the deposit; and finally, the process of publishing a
description of the fossils and their context. Anyone thinking of
undertaking such a project would do well to consult this book.

Two years of excavation at Liang Bua turned up not just the early
human skull the team had been hoping to find but nearly the whole
skeleton that went with it. The discoveries were so significant that
they generated massive media attention. What is it about the Flores
woman (nicknamed "Hobbit") that is so important?

First of all, she lived relatively recently—only 18,000 years ago.
Other fossils found subsequently show that similar beings lived on
Flores up to 95,000 years ago.

Second, there is controversy over how she should be classified. She
has been assigned to a new species of the genus Homo, but at 380
cubic centimeters, her brain would have been only about one-third as
large as that of a modern human. Brain size is usually considered
one of the defining attributes of humans, and prior to the discovery
of the Flores woman, the smallest skull to have been classified as
belonging to the genus Homo indicated a brain size of 500 cubic
centimeters. The choice then was either to change the criteria for
Homo to include a brain size as small as Hobbit's or to exclude her
from the genus. Not surprisingly, there was some disagreement among
team members over which of these options to choose, and the article
they submitted to Nature initially put her in a separate genus. But
the scientists who refereed the article encouraged them to assign
her to Homo, and ultimately they did so.

Third, although the Flores woman was only about one meter in height,
she was clearly bipedal, walking upright on two legs. Her limb
proportions differ from those of modern humans: She had short legs,
relatively long arms, and uniquely long feet puzzling to scientists.

Finally, the circumstances of her discovery—that she was found on an
island where there is evidence of dwarfing of associated animals
such as the proboscidean Stegodon—are significant. They suggest that
many of her attributes, particularly her small stature and shortened
but very robust legs, may have been the product of island dwarfism—
the phenomenon of animals isolated on remote islands evolving to
have body sizes much smaller than those of their recent ancestors.
(There is also an inverse form of the process, in which small
animals breeding in isolation become larger.)

All this evidence provides the basis for rich scientific discussion,
and there has indeed been extensive debate. Along with it has come
the predictable outcry against the unexpected.

Scientific method rests on acquiring and organizing information
about the natural world and making it available to others. This
depends on asking relevant questions, using appropriate methods to
find the answers, publishing the results in scholarly journals and
making the material studied available for independent testing. As
described in A New Human, the research on the Flores woman carried
out by the team who found her has followed this procedure to the
letter. Their findings have inspired an impressive amount of
critical but informed discussion, with many possible alternative
interpretations being aired.

Unfortunately, because other people wanted to get in on the act,
departures from the scientific method occurred after the Nature
article was published. Most notably, Teuku Jacob, an Indonesian
anthropologist who was not a member of the team, precipitously
removed the skull, lower jaw and femur of the Flores woman, along
with another lower jaw found at Liang Bua, from the lab where they
were being kept. He then restricted access to the specimens and
dismissed them as the remains of modern humans with the pathological
condition known as microcephaly. According to Morwood and Oosterzee,
Jacob essentially hijacked the remains, claiming falsely that
Morwood had agreed to their transfer. The authors also complain that
when Jacob finally returned the fossils, the bones had been
mishandled and irreparably damaged.

However unethical the process by which Jacob arrived at his
conclusion, it remains the case that if his hypothesis were to be
proved correct, the Flores hominins would not have any evolutionary
significance. On the other hand, history tells us that similarly
negative reactions have greeted other unexpected hominin fossils,
such as the first Neandertals found in the 19th century and the
first australopithecine in the early 20th century.

This well-written, entertaining book is both scholarly and
accessible to the general public. Morwood and Oosterzee make the
case that the Flores hominins occupy a unique position in human
evolution. The authors counter some but not all of the evidence for
microcephaly. Chapter 3 contains an interesting but short account of
the faunal movements across Indonesia during the Pleistocene,
especially with reference to the Wallace Line along the eastern edge
of the Asian continental shelf, to the west of which are found
Asiatic species, and to the east, mostly Australian ones. Oceanic
barriers and climate change had an immediate impact on those
movements. Morwood and Oosterzee subscribe to the belief that in the
past, cooler periods coincided with reduced precipitation; however,
present-day climatologists are predicting that in tropical
environments, drier climates and loss of rain forest will be
associated with global warming, not cooling. Which view is correct?
The authors also rely on the now-outdated savanna hypothesis, which
posited that early hominins evolved when the replacement of African
forests by savanna grasslands made upright walking advantageous. In
fact, evidence is increasing that early hominins evolved and lived
for quite some time in woodland environments.

Scientists working in Asia have a natural tendency to assign greater
importance to their fossils than to those found in Africa (as Eugène
Dubois notoriously did with his 1891 discovery of Pithecanthropus
erectus in Java). So it is unsurprising that Morwood and Oosterzee
devote chapter 6 to showing that the genus Homo may have originated
in Asia, rather than Africa as is generally believed. They claim
that Homo ergaster in Africa had no known ancestry, and they assert
that populations of hominins emigrating from Africa to Indonesia
around 1.8 million years ago encountered "other" hominins already
resident in eastern Europe and the Middle East. However, no
information is provided (because none is yet available) as to the
origin of these "other" hominins. And the evolutionary pedigree of
ergaster is, in fact, well documented in the African fossil record,
as indeed is acknowledged later in this book.

The Flores discovery, although it throws no light on this particular
issue, opens up many new lines of inquiry as to the nature of human
evolution. I am sure it will not be the last surprise to come in the
ambitious project of investigating our origins.

Reviewer Information

Peter Andrews is a research scientist at the Natural History Museum
in London and a professor in the department of anthropology at
University College London. He is the author of Owls, Caves and
Fossils (University of Chicago Press, 1990) and is coauthor with
Chris Stringer of The Complete World of Human Evolution (Thames and
Hudson, 2005).
Marc Verhaegen - 08 Jun 2007 12:55 GMT
Op 08-06-2007 03:28, in artikel
1181266125.664861.258810@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com, Lee Olsen
<paleocity@hotmail.com> schreef:

>>>>>  Jason Eshleman: "But since you asked, fossils do not indicate that
>>>>> humans were tied to a maritime ecology for the duration of the time
>>>>> you are suggesting.

>>>> ??   What time am I suggesting??

>>> Since you don't have any evidence to support any of your claims, does
>>> it matter?

>> IOW, Eshleman is talking blabla: "duration of the time you are
>> suggesting"???

>>>> What have fossils to do with comparative evidence??

>>> What does comparative evidence have to do with the null hypothesis?

>> What null hypothesis? OOTI?

No answer.

>>>>> There is ample evidence of some of the traits you
>>>>> argue for (e.g. 'linear build' and 'reduced climbing' beginning long
>>>>> before your 1.8mybp diaspora).

>>>> 1.8 Ma??   Don't you even know H & P split +-5 Ma??

>>> Let's see now, H&P spit +_5 Ma,  so H went into the water and came out
>>> on the savanna, catching antelope, eating meat, and sweating a lot,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> 7) Gona does not contradict AAT.
>> Bah! Are youy really too stupid to say something sensible??

> No evidence = no answer = name calling. That is the only argument
> Verhaegin will ever have.

I rewrite it more politely, but you will still be unable to answer:

Writing things like "Let's see now, H&P spit +_5 Ma, so H went into the
water and came out on the savanna, catching antelope, eating meat, and
sweating a lot, all in 2.4 My. There isn't time for both, and Gona is real,
not imaginary----you lose" is not very sensible:
1) You confuse "Homo" & "our ancestors".
2) Nobody ever claimed human ancestors underwent a fully aquatic phase.
3) No sensible PA still follows the savanna idea (Stringer, Tobias, Wood,
Andrews etc.etc.). These are popular stories for the general public, but
without scientific basis.
4) Early hominids 2.6 Ma or so may have butchered prey, but there's no
evidence they caught it.
5) Whether the hominids at Gona sweat is unknown. Claiming such things show
a complete ignorance of anthropology.
6) Whether our ancestors 2.6 Ma sweat is unknown. Same remark.
7) "There isn't time for both" show a complete ignorance of evolutionary
science.
8) Nothing of what was found at Gona contradicts AAT. To the contrary.

:-)
Comm - 28 Jun 2007 20:03 GMT
HEY stranger!  How you doing?  THIS thread is interesting - I'm gonna print
out the stuff on Verhagen's website.  OOTI.  INTERESTING!!

>> Op 05-06-2007 10:00, paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com
>> <paleoanthropology@yahoogroups.com> schreef:
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> direction. It all makes sense that humans first emerged from a coast
> dwelling ancestor.
Sylvia Knörr - 30 Jun 2007 00:10 GMT
> > Here's something to support the litoral origin of man over the savannah
> > origin:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > direction. It all makes sense that humans first emerged from a coast
> > dwelling ancestor.

> HEY stranger!  How you doing?  THIS thread is interesting - I'm gonna print
> out the stuff on Verhagen's website.  OOTI.  INTERESTING!!

I think a litoral way of life could plausibly explain why humans split from
other primates. To me it makes more sense than the "savannah origin" of man.
Many anthropologists might be blinded by the fact that we did not find human
fossils in a litoral surrounding, and many in a savannah surrounding. But
since the ocean level rose and sank several times since the times of the
australopithecines, all the coastal fossil traces might have been washed
away, and only the savannah traces remained.
Our human ancestors must have gone through an evolutionary bottleneck at the
time we separated from our ape-like ancestors. This bottleneck could very
well have been an island which later became part of a continent after a
major ocean level decline. After a few thousand years, the inhabitants of
that island could very well have become a new species because of a limited
gene pool - the "human race".

BTW, I'm presently working in a nice little exhibition with my NGO from
Mauer, where the Homo Heidelbergensis was found 100 years ago. For those who
can understand some German:

http://www.100jahre.homoheidelbergensis.de/

http://www.homoheidelbergensis.de/cms/front_content.php

You are invited to see it, if you happen to be in the Heidelberg area until
November 2007. :-)
And sorry, we don't have it in English yet.
Comm - 05 Jul 2007 04:46 GMT
>> > Here's something to support the litoral origin of man over the savannah
>> > origin:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> print
>> out the stuff on Verhagen's website.  OOTI.  INTERESTING!!

Bad luck my end.  I couldn't find ANYTHING.  I was looking for a nice
article. Oh well...  I'll wait for the book :)  I read Elain Morgan, btw,
all 3 of her books.

> I think a litoral way of life could plausibly explain why humans split
> from
> other primates. To me it makes more sense than the "savannah origin" of
> man.

I think the savannah scenario is out the window.  The years don't sync up
right.

> Many anthropologists might be blinded by the fact that we did not find
> human
> fossils in a litoral surrounding, and many in a savannah surrounding.

Wait - NOW it's savannah.  What was it before?  I think those
australopithicines are ancestors of gorillas and the Pan genus.  Just imo.
Also, I said this before if you recall, heh (got flamed for saying it!) - I
think that perhaps the common ancestor was NOT prognathic, NOT a knuckle
walker, maybe NOT furry (fur is not hair) and maybe MORE bipedal than non
human ape species.  It's possible.  It is very possible that the common
ancestor was intermediate.  People tend to forget that gorillas, other
primates - ALSO evolved.  Usually, humans think that "more chimp like" means
more primitive.  WRONG thinking!!!!  I think because they are studying human
ancestors - and they are humans doing the studying - that's the problem.  It
is possible that the knuckle walking, prognathism, all that which people
think is less evolved (heh) - I think that perhaps that is MORE evolved -
who knows.  Maybe HUMANS have the features most like the common ancestor.
Species retain traits.  They change from adaptation and sometimes change
back.  I'd go so far as to say that I know we had an aquatic period (not
living in the water, but near the water, involved with the water) because -
I REMEMBER it in my flesh.  but I'm from another culture where such things
are pretty common, too.  I do NOT expect any European to know what the hell
I'm even talking about if I say that.

You see, I told you this once - those H sapiens in middle east were NOT
prognathic. So then, either there were two races right then and there - or
the ones in Africa developed that prognathism later on.  Prognathism (and
the jaw in general) also has quite a bit to do with brain development.   A
bigger front brain = intelligence and prognathism does NOT encourage that
development, and also the sutures closing up earlier in people that are
prognathic.  I remembering seeing that in OLD anthro books - it's not
mentioned anymore......

Here is another unanswered question:  why don't ANY humans have the Babboon
marker?  That's an immunological fingerprint.  Only African apes of all
kinds, including monkeys, have this marker.  Apes and such primates
elsewhere do NOT have it.  NO humans have it.  HOW can our common ancestor
have been in Africa if we don't have this marker?  NO ONE ever answers me
when I ask this.  WHY?

But
> since the ocean level rose and sank several times since the times of the
> australopithecines, all the coastal fossil traces might have been washed
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> November 2007. :-)
> And sorry, we don't have it in English yet.

I can't read German :(  Oh well.  I'll wait for the book.  Verhagen needs to
write a book.  I found some place with a bunch of google posts on it - I
don't have time to go thru a heap of posts.  I can print out articles, tho -
if I could find them.  I had no luck.
Marc Verhaegen - 05 Jul 2007 19:58 GMT
Op 05-07-2007 05:46, in artikel
dQZii.3997$tj6.1444@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm <comm@nospam.com>
schreef:
...

> I can't read German :(  Oh well.  I'll wait for the book.  Verhagen needs to
> write a book.  I found some place with a bunch of google posts on it - I
> don't have time to go thru a heap of posts.  I can print out articles, tho -
> if I could find them.  I had no luck.

I have written a book, "In den beginne was het water" Hadewijch Antwerp
1997, but it's in Dutch. A few people started translating it into English,
but it's too time-consuming, too many specific words, I guess.

BTW, German & certainly Dutch (as well as the Scandinavian languages) are
not difficult to read when you know English.

--Marc
Comm - 10 Jul 2007 18:17 GMT
> Op 05-07-2007 05:46, in artikel
> dQZii.3997$tj6.1444@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> BTW, German & certainly Dutch (as well as the Scandinavian languages) are
> not difficult to read when you know English.

Uh, heh.  Yes they are.  I'm a native English speaker.  Of course, IF you
can already read these languages, it's not hard :)

I managed to find a few things you wrote - and WOW - it seems to agree with
what I wrote to Sylvia (about bipedalism, prognathism - that stuff).  It was
HIGHLY technical stuff you wrote - referring to finds and such, labeled with
numbers, that I have no familiarity with.

> --Marc
Marc Verhaegen - 10 Jul 2007 22:49 GMT
Op 10-07-2007 19:17, in artikel
LaPki.6308$Od7.5878@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm <comm@nospam.com>
schreef:

>> Op 05-07-2007 05:46, in artikel
>> dQZii.3997$tj6.1444@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>> don't have time to go thru a heap of posts.  I can print out articles,
>>> tho - if I could find them.  I had no luck.

>> I have written a book, "In den beginne was het water" Hadewijch Antwerp
>> 1997, but it's in Dutch. A few people started translating it into English,
>> but it's too time-consuming, too many specific words, I guess.
>> BTW, German & certainly Dutch (as well as the Scandinavian languages) are
>> not difficult to read when you know English.

> Uh, heh.  Yes they are.  I'm a native English speaker.  Of course, IF you
> can already read these languages, it's not hard :)

I meant it's a lot easier than to learn French or so.  I learnt English,
it's no more difficult for you to learn another Germanic language.

> I managed to find a few things you wrote - and WOW - it seems to agree with
> what I wrote to Sylvia (about bipedalism, prognathism - that stuff).  It was
> HIGHLY technical stuff you wrote - referring to finds and such, labeled with
> numbers, that I have no familiarity with.

--Marc
Comm - 15 Jul 2007 06:03 GMT
> Op 10-07-2007 19:17, in artikel
> LaPki.6308$Od7.5878@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> I meant it's a lot easier than to learn French or so.  I learnt English,
> it's no more difficult for you to learn another Germanic language.

It is for me.  Trying to learn another language, I just end up memorizing
words and tire of it.  Also, I have a hard enough time reading what you
write in English - it's highly technical.  I just responded to you and
Sylvia - I THINK you are agreeing with me in your articles (as I stated) and
I also stated where you just said what I just said (same page, I said).  But
"WKing" and things like that, I have no idea what you are talking about
there.  It's over my head.

I'm surprised you didn't explain baboon marker to Sylvia.  I did.  Now, that
is NOT over my head :)

>> I managed to find a few things you wrote - and WOW - it seems to agree
>> with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> --Marc
Marc Verhaegen - 15 Jul 2007 11:28 GMT
Op 15-07-2007 07:03, in artikel
_Uhmi.7618$tj6.4371@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm <comm@nospam.com>
schreef:
...

>>>>> I can't read German :(  Oh well.  I'll wait for the book. Verhaegen
>>>>> needs to
>>>>> write a book.  I found some place with a bunch of google posts on it -
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't have time to go thru a heap of posts.  I can print out articles,
>>>>> tho - if I could find them.  I had no luck.

>>>> I have written a book, "In den beginne was het water" Hadewijch Antwerp
>>>> 1997, but it's in Dutch. A few people started translating it into
>>>> English,
>>>> but it's too time-consuming, too many specific words, I guess.
>>>> BTW, German & certainly Dutch (as well as the Scandinavian languages)
>>>> are not difficult to read when you know English.

>>> Uh, heh.  Yes they are.  I'm a native English speaker.  Of course, IF you
>>> can already read these languages, it's not hard :)

>> I meant it's a lot easier than to learn French or so.  I learnt English,
>> it's no more difficult for you to learn another Germanic language.

> It is for me.  Trying to learn another language, I just end up memorizing
> words and tire of it.

I never learnt Danish etc. at school, but with the help of a dictionary I
can +- read it (technical works at least, not literature). I think you have
to know a bit on the grammar (word order, auxiliaries, conjugations,
pronominals, plural, spelling...) & then start reading & look up in a
dictionary the words you don't know (passive reading is a lot easier than
understanding spoken language). Arm=arm, hand=hand, finger=vinger,
nail=nagel, shoulder=Schulter=schouder etc. in English, German, Dutch... &
technical words are even more the same (hominid=hominide).  Non-Germanic
languages are a lot more difficult, of course, but I had to learn Latin &
French at school, so I can read Italian & Spanish even without using much a
dictionary.

> Also, I have a hard enough time reading what you
> write in English - it's highly technical.  I just responded to you and
> Sylvia - I THINK you are agreeing with me in your articles (as I stated) and
> I also stated where you just said what I just said (same page, I said).  But
> "WKing" and things like that, I have no idea what you are talking about
> there.  It's over my head.

Sorry about that: knuckle-walking, as in chimps, gorillas, giant
anteaters... = walking on the middle phalanges of the fingers of the hand,
with stretched wrists (seems to be seen in a few spp that frequently
change(d) between bi-& quadru-pedality (2-& 4-leggedness, sorry for the
terms), and that might have moved below-branch once, but possibly also had
other constraints: otherwise KWing would have been more frequent).

> I'm surprised you didn't explain baboon marker to Sylvia.  I did.  Now, that
> is NOT over my head :)

But it's over my head :)  that's why I don't write much about it. What I
know is only that there are indications from retroviral infections during
the Pliocene (5-2 Ma, built in in the DNA of living species) in primates
that humans group with the Asian primates & lack the retroviral infection(s)
seen in baboons, gorillas, chimps etc.(Afr.species), which suggest that our
ancestors were not in Africa 4-3 & possibly even 4-2 Ma (when these
retroviruses were active). This is not essential to my ideas, but it fits
well with the possibility that Homo populations after the Homo/Pan split c.5
Ma colonised the Indian Ocean shores & that the population that was
ancestral to us (there must have been lots of sidebranches who belonged to
Homo, but were not our direct ancestors) was somewhere in Asia between 4 & 3
Ma.  I guess they were on S.Asian coasts or islands (even SE.Asia? one of
these might have become H.floresiensis??).

>>> I managed to find a few things you wrote - and WOW - it seems to agree
>>> with
>>> what I wrote to Sylvia (about bipedalism, prognathism - that stuff).  It
>>> was
>>> HIGHLY technical stuff you wrote - referring to finds and such, labeled
>>> with numbers, that I have no familiarity with.

Sorry. I've tried to answer this in another post.

--Marc
Comm - 16 Jul 2007 03:00 GMT
> Op 15-07-2007 07:03, in artikel
> _Uhmi.7618$tj6.4371@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
> Ma.  I guess they were on S.Asian coasts or islands (even SE.Asia? one of
> these might have become H.floresiensis??).

I'd agree.  Our ancestor, direct ancestor, could not have been in Africa.
Possibly, the ancestor was in Asia.  I also think Wolpoff is right and
Stringer is wrong.  Just a hunch.

>>>> I managed to find a few things you wrote - and WOW - it seems to agree
>>>> with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> --Marc
Marc Verhaegen - 16 Jul 2007 12:40 GMT
Op 16-07-2007 04:00, in artikel
ojAmi.8679$zA4.1515@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm <comm@nospam.com>
schreef:
...


>>> I'm surprised you didn't explain baboon marker to Sylvia.  I did.  Now,
>>> that is NOT over my head :)

>> But it's over my head :)  that's why I don't write much about it. What I
>> know is only that there are indications from retroviral infections during
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> I guess they were on S.Asian coasts or islands (even SE.Asia? one of
>> these might have become H.floresiensis??).

> I'd agree.  Our ancestor, direct ancestor, could not have been in Africa.
> Possibly, the ancestor was in Asia.  I also think Wolpoff is right and
> Stringer is wrong.  Just a hunch.

I don't know how high the probabilites are, but I agree it's not so likely
that our direct ancestors were in Africa 4-3 Ma.

--Marc
Sylvia Knörr - 11 Jul 2007 00:43 GMT
> >> > Here's something to support the litoral origin of man over the savannah
> >> > origin:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >> > direction. It all makes sense that humans first emerged from a coast
> >> > dwelling ancestor.

> >> HEY stranger!  How you doing?  THIS thread is interesting - I'm gonna
> >> print out the stuff on Verhagen's website.  OOTI.  INTERESTING!!

> Bad luck my end.  I couldn't find ANYTHING.  I was looking for a nice
> article. Oh well...  I'll wait for the book :)  I read Elain Morgan, btw,
> all 3 of her books.

Elaine Morgan was on the right track, but she's more a journalist than a
scientist. She disregarded some anatomic facts, and Carsten Niemitz is more
exact with these things. If you go to the above mentioned side, you can find
some abstracts in German AND English.

> > I think a litoral way of life could plausibly explain why humans split
> > from
> > other primates. To me it makes more sense than the "savannah origin" of
> > man.

> I think the savannah scenario is out the window.  The years don't sync up
> right.

Yet many anthropologists still cling to it. Oh well, it always takes some
time to change an old paradigm. How long did it take until Darwin's thoughts
about evolution became common knowledge? Heh...

> > Many anthropologists might be blinded by the fact that we did not find
> > human
> > fossils in a litoral surrounding, and many in a savannah surrounding.

> Wait - NOW it's savannah.  What was it before?  I think those
> australopithicines are ancestors of gorillas and the Pan genus.  Just imo.

I think they could very well be OUR ancestors, because they had the upright
gait. But since we have only a few pieces of the prehistoric jigsaw puzzle,
we can speculate about the picture it shows.

> Also, I said this before if you recall, heh (got flamed for saying it!) - I
> think that perhaps the common ancestor was NOT prognathic, NOT a knuckle
> walker, maybe NOT furry (fur is not hair) and maybe MORE bipedal than non
> human ape species.

As for bipedalism, I don't think that the ancestors of chimps and gorillas
had it, because that would mean that chimps and gorillas lost it again. Once
you  have long legs, there's no way back to quadrupedalism. Just try to walk
on all four for one mile. You will find it's almost impossible. Some
anatomic achievements are almost irreversible.

> It's possible.  It is very possible that the common
> ancestor was intermediate.  People tend to forget that gorillas, other
> primates - ALSO evolved.

Sure they did. Hence, from THEIR perspective a common ancestor must have
looked quite human-like. Just a matter of perspective. :-)

> Usually, humans think that "more chimp like" means
> more primitive.  WRONG thinking!!!!  I think because they are studying human
> ancestors - and they are humans doing the studying - that's the problem.  It
> is possible that the knuckle walking, prognathism, all that which people
> think is less evolved (heh) - I think that perhaps that is MORE evolved -
> who knows.

Yes, we only think of it as "primitive" if we perceive humans as some
perfect end product of evolution. But it's a matter of adaption. To live in
a rain forest surrounding, chimps and gorillas are well adapted and far from
being primitive.
However, we should also remember that "primitive" isn't generally anything
bad. It just means that it's more simple. This can be an advantage, because
the simpler something is, the more robust it is in most cases.

> Maybe HUMANS have the features most like the common ancestor.
> Species retain traits.  They change from adaptation and sometimes change
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> are pretty common, too.  I do NOT expect any European to know what the hell
> I'm even talking about if I say that.

Maybe I do, at least partially. :-)
There are such things like instincts, gut feeling, and eventually mythology,
which might have preserved something of our long forgotten evolutionary
roots. We still got little scientific access to them, but I hope that
advancing methods make these areas accessible, too.

> You see, I told you this once - those H sapiens in middle east were NOT
> prognathic. So then, either there were two races right then and there - or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> prognathic.  I remembering seeing that in OLD anthro books - it's not
> mentioned anymore......

The fossil record shows that the African homo sapiens was prognathic, and
the faces became more flat along the way - MUCH more flat for the Eurasian
branch of homo. It might be an aspect of a juvenilization, along with some
other characteristics.

> Here is another unanswered question:  why don't ANY humans have the Babboon
> marker?  That's an immunological fingerprint.  Only African apes of all
> kinds, including monkeys, have this marker.  Apes and such primates
> elsewhere do NOT have it.  NO humans have it.  HOW can our common ancestor
> have been in Africa if we don't have this marker?  NO ONE ever answers me
> when I ask this.  WHY?

What baboon marker? Are you talking about the rhesus factor?

> But
> > since the ocean level rose and sank several times since the times of the
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> > November 2007. :-)
> > And sorry, we don't have it in English yet.

> I can't read German :(

Never mind, it's just an exhibition. Yet by autumn, a symposium of several
world famous anthropologists is planned in Heidelberg, and the outcome of
their dispute will surely be in English. I'll keep you posted!
Marc Verhaegen - 11 Jul 2007 20:26 GMT
Op 11-07-2007 01:43, in artikel f715j2$i44$03$1@news.t-online.com, Sylvia
Knörr <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@t-online.de> schreef:

>>>>> Here's something to support the litoral origin of man over the
>>>>> savannah origin:
>>>>> http://www2.biologie.fu-berlin.de/humanbio/
>>>>> This may not be exactly "out of the islands", but points to the same
>>>>> direction. It all makes sense that humans first emerged from a coast
>>>>> dwelling ancestor.

>>>> HEY stranger!  How you doing?  THIS thread is interesting - I'm gonna
>>>> print out the stuff on Verhagen's website.  OOTI.  INTERESTING!!

>> Bad luck my end.  I couldn't find ANYTHING.  I was looking for a nice
>> article. Oh well...  I'll wait for the book :)  I read Elain Morgan, btw,
>> all 3 of her books.

> Elaine Morgan was on the right track, but she's more a journalist than a
> scientist. She disregarded some anatomic facts, and Carsten Niemitz is more
> exact with these things. If you go to the above mentioned side, you can find
> some abstracts in German AND English.

>>> I think a litoral way of life could plausibly explain why humans split
>>> from
>>> other primates. To me it makes more sense than the "savannah origin" of
>>> man.

>> I think the savannah scenario is out the window.  The years don't sync up
>> right.

> Yet many anthropologists still cling to it. Oh well, it always takes some
> time to change an old paradigm. How long did it take until Darwin's thoughts
> about evolution became common knowledge? Heh...

>>> Many anthropologists might be blinded by the fact that we did not find
>>> human
>>> fossils in a litoral surrounding, and many in a savannah surrounding.

>> Wait - NOW it's savannah.  What was it before?  I think those
>> australopithicines are ancestors of gorillas and the Pan genus.  Just imo.

> I think they could very well be OUR ancestors, because they had the upright
> gait. But since we have only a few pieces of the prehistoric jigsaw puzzle,
> we can speculate about the picture it shows.

"Upright gait" doesn't say much: tarsiers are upright, gibbons are upright.
Nor does "bipedalism"=2-leggedness: Oreopith c.7 Ma is believed to have been
bipedal, and so are Sahelanthr.7-6 Ma & Orrorin c.6 Ma, all predating the
Homo/Pan split c.5 Ma.
We have to analyse the different elements of our locomotion: eg, we are
fully plantigrade, this alone contradicts the savanna views (all cursorials
run on their toes), early hominids (Lucy, erectus) had very broad bodies &
esp.pelvises, which also contradicts fast running (cursorials have the limbs
as much as possible near the midline).
Lucy had curved phalanges: for climbing arms overhead. It also had a few
KWing features. And it is claimed to have been bipedal.  A combination of
these 3 locomotions is seen in lowland gorillas wading in forest swamps:
Lucy clearly was a lot more wading & less KWing than these gorillas.

>> Also, I said this before if you recall, heh (got flamed for saying it!) -
>> I
>> think that perhaps the common ancestor was NOT prognathic, NOT a knuckle
>> walker, maybe NOT furry (fur is not hair) and maybe MORE bipedal than non
>> human ape species.

> As for bipedalism, I don't think that the ancestors of chimps and gorillas
> had it, because that would mean that chimps and gorillas lost it again. Once
> you have long legs, there's no way back to quadrupedalism. Just try to walk
> on all four for one mile. You will find it's almost impossible. Some
> anatomic achievements are almost irreversible.

No, no: cetaceans even managed to get back to swimming, ostriches to
running, etc.  Pan & Gorilla clearly have been short-legged partial bipeds:
the discontuity between palmigrady & KWing requires an intermediate phase
where the hands were not used for pronograde.  This "problem" is nicely
solved if their ancestors were vertical waders-climbers in swamp forests
(which BTW is confirmed by the paleo-environment, dental & microwear
featrues & anatomy).  After this early hominid wading-climbing "bipedalism"
(in littoral forests presumably), P & G (in parallel) reduced wading &
evolved more KWing, whereas Homo reduced climbing & elaboreated wading &
swimming.

>> It's possible.  It is very possible that the common
>> ancestor was intermediate.  People tend to forget that gorillas, other
>> primates - ALSO evolved.

> Sure they did. Hence, from THEIR perspective a common ancestor must have
> looked quite human-like. Just a matter of perspective. :-)

>> Usually, humans think that "more chimp like" means
>> more primitive.  WRONG thinking!!!!  I think because they are studying
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> think is less evolved (heh) - I think that perhaps that is MORE evolved -
>> who knows.

> Yes, we only think of it as "primitive" if we perceive humans as some
> perfect end product of evolution. But it's a matter of adaption. To live in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bad. It just means that it's more simple. This can be an advantage, because
> the simpler something is, the more robust it is in most cases.

...

Yes, KWing clearly is more derived than bipedalism.

--Marc
Comm - 15 Jul 2007 06:03 GMT
> Op 11-07-2007 01:43, in artikel f715j2$i44$03$1@news.t-online.com, Sylvia
> Knörr <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@t-online.de> schreef:
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> bipedal, and so are Sahelanthr.7-6 Ma & Orrorin c.6 Ma, all predating the
> Homo/Pan split c.5 Ma.

AH!! Same page!

> We have to analyse the different elements of our locomotion: eg, we are
> fully plantigrade, this alone contradicts the savanna views (all
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> No, no: cetaceans even managed to get back to swimming, ostriches to
> running, etc.

AH - same page, again.

Pan & Gorilla clearly have been short-legged partial bipeds:
> the discontuity between palmigrady & KWing requires an intermediate phase
> where the hands were not used for pronograde.  This "problem" is nicely
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> --Marc
Comm - 15 Jul 2007 06:03 GMT
>> >> > Here's something to support the litoral origin of man over the
> savannah
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> thoughts
> about evolution became common knowledge? Heh...

Usually, people that hold the old paradigm have to simply - die.

>> > Many anthropologists might be blinded by the fact that we did not find
>> > human
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> puzzle,
> we can speculate about the picture it shows.

Uh, upright gait doesn't mean they walked on two legs all the time.  I think
australopithicenes were not our ancestors.   My hunch.  Maybe they were the
ancestors of gorillas and chimps. That was my idea - and from what I read on
Verhagen's site, I think he's agreeing with me on that.  I think.....  :)
What he writes ain't exactly for laymen :)

>> Also, I said this before if you recall, heh (got flamed for saying it!) -
> I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Once
> you  have long legs, there's no way back to quadrupedalism.

You are wrong.  Animals came on land, adapted thoroughly.  Some went back to
the ocean, adapted thoroughly.  There are people, a family of them, in
Turkey.  Some of the kids walk on their hands.  Why?  Because babies go thru
a phase like that and these people, as babies, never progressed further.
They can not walk on two legs, upright.  But that's an exception.  Long
legged can go back to short legged if they have the genes FOR short
leggedness in them.  All it takes is breeding FOR that trait.  Norm of
reaction, remember?

Just try to walk
> on all four for one mile. You will find it's almost impossible. Some
> anatomic achievements are almost irreversible.

See above about see to land and back to sea.  It's possible.

>> It's possible.  It is very possible that the common
>> ancestor was intermediate.  People tend to forget that gorillas, other
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> because
> the simpler something is, the more robust it is in most cases.

I know that.  I'm commenting on paradigm makers and how they tend to think.
Anthropocentric.

>> Maybe HUMANS have the features most like the common ancestor.
>> Species retain traits.  They change from adaptation and sometimes change
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> roots. We still got little scientific access to them, but I hope that
> advancing methods make these areas accessible, too.

I mean, I think maybe the earliest ancestor was maybe NOT prognathic.  It's
possible.  Maybe it was NOT a knuckle walker. Maybe it was NOT many things
that anthropocentric types think at all.

>> You see, I told you this once - those H sapiens in middle east were NOT
>> prognathic. So then, either there were two races right then and there -
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> branch of homo. It might be an aspect of a juvenilization, along with some
> other characteristics.

No.  H. sapiens found in the middle east are like modern EURO ASIAN man.
They are not prognathic.  AT THE SAME TIME, the ones in Africa, may have
BEEN prognathic.  That is what I'm talking about.  I remember SEEING these
samples, skulls.  They were easy to tell apart, even for a layman.  So
either there were already two distinct races, one prognathic and the other
not - or the Africans developed prognathism later on.  That is what I meant.
Since I have read Verhagen, I think again I understand him to be saying the
same thing - that Negroes developed this prognathism.  You are viewing this
as like "one type."  I'm not quite seeing it that way.  H. Sapiens in Middle
East was not prognathic.  H. Sapiens in Africa - WAS?  I don't know.  I know
they are NOW.  I know also that this jaw development is tied into sutures of
the brain closing much earlier - and the brain developing a different way.
Some Verhagen quoted said that Negroes developed this in the last 200,000
years.  That would mean that NO OTHERS developed it.  The skulls in Mid East
were like a Euro and Asian mix type - probably one type.  Due to selection
and whatever, they ended up being a European and an Asian type (2 types).
Still, I have to wonder at that.  I've seen some pretty flat faced Irish.

>> Here is another unanswered question:  why don't ANY humans have the
> Babboon
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What baboon marker? Are you talking about the rhesus factor?

The Baboon marker is an immunological marker, like a genetic fingerprint.
It results from an outbreak of an AIR BORNE retrovirus that killed off many
baboons, monkeys, primates, etc etc.  ALL of the ones in Africa have the
marker - they are the ones that survived this virus.  NONE in Asia or S.
America have it.  NO HUMANS HAVE IT.  Therefore, our ancestor can NOT have
been in Africa when this virus broke out.  It broke out about 5 million
years ago.  I wonder why no one talks about it.  It's like a genetic
fingerprint - it's absolute.  I'm surprised Verhagen didn't answer that for
you, since I see he did reply (and I just read it and added this line).

>> But
>> > since the ocean level rose and sank several times since the times of
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> world famous anthropologists is planned in Heidelberg, and the outcome of
> their dispute will surely be in English. I'll keep you posted!

I hope I see it, I'm not online that much.  Email me:  commissar  at  mail
dot com
Marc Verhaegen - 15 Jul 2007 10:39 GMT
Op 15-07-2007 07:03, in artikel
ZUhmi.7616$tj6.5807@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm <comm@nospam.com>
schreef:

....

> Uh, upright gait doesn't mean they walked on two legs all the time.  I think
> australopithicenes were not our ancestors.   My hunch.  Maybe they were the
> ancestors of gorillas and chimps. That was my idea - and from what I read on
> Verhaegen's site, I think he's agreeing with me on that.  I think.....  :)
> What he writes ain't exactly for laymen :)

Some of my papers (eg, Hum.Evol.) are perhaps not so easy, but I thought our
TREE paper (google "aquarboreal") was well readable for the interested
layman?

In short & in simple words, how I see great ape + human (hominids + pongids)
evolution today, slightly different from our TREE paper (-pith=pithecus,
apiths=australopithecines):

The basis from which we have to start is the DNA genetic tree:
- hominids & pongids split c.15 Ma,
- hominids (HPG) split c.7 into Gorilla & Homo-Pan
- Homo & Pan split c.5 Ma

The problem is: where to place the different fossils (often only teeth) in
sidebranches of this tree?  IMO, apiths should be placed in Gorilla or Pan
branches rather than in Homo branches (for detailed arguments, see my
Hum.Evol.papers, & there are a lot of more recent arguments that confirm my
ideas).

18-17 Ma: Afro-Arabia approaches Eurasia, formation of island archipelagoes
between, in what is now Italy, Greece, Anatolia etc. (cf.Japan & Indonesian
archipelagoes), formation of Alps.  First great ape (thick enamel) in Europe
(Engelswies, German Alps, possibly Griphopithecus), I presume in coastal
forests of the northern Tethys coasts (Tethys Sea = ancient Med.Sea between
Laurasia (N) & Gondwana (S)).  On southern Tethys coasts in coastal
sediments we have c.17 Ma Heliopith (=Afropith?) = "Saudi ape", also with
thick enamel.  Thick enamel (orang, capuchin, sea otter) is for hard (not
tough!) food objects (nuts, shells...).  IOW, the gr.apes 18-17 Ma crossed
the Tethys islands & presumably lived in coastal forest.  Probably they had
already lost the tail & possibly had adopted some below-branch locomotion.
I guess they were predom.fruit+nut-eaters in coastal forests (incl.coconuts:
tool use?), but possibly also ate, eg, mangrove oysters (thick enamel //
capuchins use oyster shells to open other oysters).

15-14 Ma: Griphopith (Austriacopith) in Austria-Slovakia in coastal
sediments (Devinska Nova Ves or Neudorf).  Thick enamel. I guess Griphopith
was near the hominid-pongid split.  After that split c.15 Ma, pongids went
East along the Ind.ocean shores & invaded the rivers inland (Sivapith (still
predom.above-branch?), Lufengpith (swamp forest), Gigantopith
(wetlands)...); hominids went West & colonised the Med.shore forests
(N=Europe & S=Africa & Med.islands):

12-10 Ma:
- Dryopith (incl.Pierolapith, Catalunya c.13 Ma?) in swamp forests in Spain,
Hungary, France...  Could fully stretch the arms = at least parttime
branch-hanging.  Possible close relative of HPG (says D.Begun), but not sure
according to Afr.palentologists (eg, Pickford).
- Samburupith 10-9 Ma in Kenya! = gorilla-like upper cheek but thick enamel.

8-6 Ma (partial desiccation of Med.Sea: Messinian Salt Crisis c.6 Ma):
- Oreopith in swamp forest on Med.island (now Tuscany), believed by some to
have been wading on 2 legs.  I presume vertical wader-climber.
Thinner-enameled (leaf-eating?).
- Ouranopith=Graecopith in Macedonia, resembles robust apiths much later.
Wetlands? At least less forested than Dryopith etc.
- Sahelanthropus in Lake Chad (then probably connected to Lybian Basin &
Med.Sea through wetlands/forests). Flat skull, heavy eyebrow ridge &
gorilla-like features.  Presumed to be "bipedal" (IMO parttime short-legged
wading).  Near HP/G split I presume.
- Orrorin c.6 Ma in lakeside forest, also "bipedal", near the H/P split
according to M.Pickford.

There were 2 large forests in Africa at the time (Jon.Kingdon "Lowly
origins"): a very large "central" (Kongo-Rift) & a small "littoral" one
(E.Afr.Kenya-Mozambique).  IMO, after the hominids reached Africa, they
split into Gorilla (central forest) & HP (littoral forest), where the
different G & P species kept evolving in parallel.  HP split c.5 Ma into Pan
(stayed in the swamp forests) & Homo (colonised the Indian Ocean & African
shores & gradually lost most climbing features & developed some diving
skills).

4-2 Ma: IMO, fossil Gorilla species are found in Chad, Rift etc.: anamensis,
afarensis, aethiopicus, boisei; fossil Pan species are found in S.Africa:
africanus, robustus.  These apiths lived at first in swamp forests, waded a
lot (presumably for sedges & waterside & aquatic herbaceous vegetation much
more than today's Ndoki gorillas: very broad cheekteeth with superthick
enamel = calorie-poor diets? nuts? snails & other hard inclusions in diet?):
this explains short-legged bipedalism & curved hand bones (to climb in the
branches above the swamp as Ndoki gorillas do). Knuckle-walking in P & G
evolved in parallel as an adaptation to more locomotion on drier forest
ground, but was already partially seen in all E.Afr.apiths (knuckle-walking
is indeed more developed in G than in P).

2-0 Ma
- Later apiths 2-1 Ma (Ice Times = general cooling & drying in Africa) lived
in more open wetlands (eg, boisei Chesowanja = reed lagoon // robustus
Kromdraai = reed swamp) & in papyrus swamps (where many habilis fossils are
found, eg, Olduvai OH-16 enamel micro-wear suggests papyrus consumption).
- Homo fossils appear (due to lowerings of sea levels during the Ice Times?)
in waterside, often deltaic & near-shore sediments in Dmanisi (near
connection of Black-Caspian Seas), Java, N & E.Africa (Lake Turkana was
connected to the Ind.Ocean c.1.8 & probably also 2.5 & 1.1 Ma), (always?)
near shellfish.  Butchering of whales & bovids at beaches & riverbanks, but
the dentition suggests omnivory with a lot of plant foods (rice = growing in
water is still the basic human food).

Canine size:
Most early hominids-pongids probably did not have very large canines
(prognathism). Some early apiths (male afarensis) & even some Homo
(Pithecanthr.IV) had rel.large canine teeth (though smaller than most living
apes & certainly monkeys), some living apes have rel.short canines (female
bonobos), but as the living gr.apes only live in tropical forests & consume
a lot of fruits, they mostly have long front teeth. The robust apiths
(boisei & robustus) fed on calorie-poor plant diets, so they had small front
teeth & very broad cheekteeth, in parallel to panda bears (cf.boisei found
in reed swamps or bamboo forests).

--Marc Verhaegen
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
Comm - 16 Jul 2007 03:00 GMT
> Op 15-07-2007 07:03, in artikel
> ZUhmi.7616$tj6.5807@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> :)
>> What he writes ain't exactly for laymen :)

> Some of my papers (eg, Hum.Evol.) are perhaps not so easy, but I thought
> our
> TREE paper (google "aquarboreal") was well readable for the interested
> layman?

I googled it, but I didn't find any chart.  I found a few articles, one
requires a login and all that.  It's more or less what you wrote right here.

I wish I could see a literal chart, with lines, like family tree chart.
That would be great.  If you have one, can you supply the specific url?  I
googled aquaboreal and most of what came up was abstracts and usenet
articles.

> In short & in simple words, how I see great ape + human (hominids +
> pongids)
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> my
> ideas).

I did read that when I finally found it. As I told Sylvia, you agree with
what I said to her, but I based what I said on hunch, nothing more.

> 18-17 Ma: Afro-Arabia approaches Eurasia, formation of island
> archipelagoes
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> shores & gradually lost most climbing features & developed some diving
> skills).

Question.  Were Homo in Africa at this time - or had their ancestors left
prior to that?  I'm thinking about that baboon marker - that virus broke out
around the time of the homo pan split.  Perhaps that split was NOT in Africa
at all.  When it comes to something like this virus, I mean, the ancestors
of homo could have left TEN YEARS prior to the outbreak.  I don't think
there is anyway to pinpoint dates like that.  One thing, it was air borne -
so they couldn't have been too close by at all at the time.

> 4-2 Ma: IMO, fossil Gorilla species are found in Chad, Rift etc.:
> anamensis,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> (knuckle-walking
> is indeed more developed in G than in P).

Again, this is the dating for that virus.  Homo ancestors couldn't possibly
have been where these other species were.

> 2-0 Ma
> - Later apiths 2-1 Ma (Ice Times = general cooling & drying in Africa)
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
Marc Verhaegen - 16 Jul 2007 12:29 GMT
Op 16-07-2007 04:00, in artikel
pjAmi.8680$zA4.4266@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm <comm@nospam.com>
schreef:
...

>>> Uh, upright gait doesn't mean they walked on two legs all the time.  I
>>> think
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>> Verhaegen's site, I think he's agreeing with me on that.  I think.....
>>> :)  What he writes ain't exactly for laymen :)

>> Some of my papers (eg, Hum.Evol.) are perhaps not so easy, but I thought
>> our
>> TREE paper (google "aquarboreal") was well readable for the interested
>> layman?

> I googled it, but I didn't find any chart.  I found a few articles, one
> requires a login and all that.  It's more or less what you wrote right here.

Yes.  If you want I send you the pdf of our TREE paper.  You can also find
it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT

> I wish I could see a literal chart, with lines, like family tree chart.
> That would be great.  If you have one, can you supply the specific url?  I
> googled aquaboreal and most of what came up was abstracts and usenet
> articles.

You googled "aquaRboreal"?  When I google it, it's the 2d result.


>> In short & in simple words, how I see great ape + human (hominids +
>> pongids)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> Hum.Evol.papers, & there are a lot of more recent arguments that confirm
>> my ideas).

> I did read that when I finally found it. As I told Sylvia, you agree with
> what I said to her, but I based what I said on hunch, nothing more.

>> 18-17 Ma: Afro-Arabia approaches Eurasia, formation of island
>> archipelagoes
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>> shores & gradually lost most climbing features & developed some diving
>> skills).

> Question.  Were Homo in Africa at this time - or had their ancestors left
> prior to that?  I'm thinking about that baboon marker - that virus broke out
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> there is anyway to pinpoint dates like that.  One thing, it was air borne -
> so they couldn't have been too close by at all at the time.

IMO the H/P split was in Africa: all Pliocene hominid (sensu HPG) fossils
AFAWK are in Africa (Sahelanthr, Orrorin, Ardip, apiths), and P & G still
live in Africa. Most likely, our ancestors left Africa (along the Indian
Ocean coasts I guess) after the H/P split c.5 Ma (retroviral data).  Homo
populations (not necessarily our direct ancestors) must have lived at
different places in tropical coastal or deltaic regions along the Med.,
Black, Caspian, Red Seas, Ind.Ocean & inland connections (Flores, Dmanisi,
Ain-Hanech, Rift...) & probably different populations went inland along the
rivers.
It's difficult or impossible to know where "Homo" was at the time: there
were probably several Homo populations, some might have been in Africa, but
our *ancestors* (one Homo population), according to the retroviral data,
seem to have been absent from Africa 4-3 Ma.
This virus (viruses?) was virulent 4-3 Ma, ie, probably after the H/P split.

>> 4-2 Ma: IMO, fossil Gorilla species are found in Chad, Rift etc.:
>> anamensis,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> ground, but was already partially seen in all E.Afr.apiths
>> (knuckle-walking is indeed more developed in G than in P).

> Again, this is the dating for that virus.  Homo ancestors couldn't possibly
> have been where these other species were.

*Human* ancestors, you mean?  Yes, likely.

>> 2-0 Ma:
>> - Later apiths 2-1 Ma (Ice Times = general cooling & drying in Africa)
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>> teeth & very broad cheekteeth, in parallel to panda bears (cf.boisei found
>> in reed swamps or bamboo forests).

--Marc Verhaegen
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
Comm - 17 Jul 2007 05:12 GMT
> Op 16-07-2007 04:00, in artikel
> pjAmi.8680$zA4.4266@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Yes.  If you want I send you the pdf of our TREE paper.  You can also find
> it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT

YES, please do - Email me at commissar at mail dot com   You can send pdf as
an attachment, please.  I'd appreciate that.

I'm not having luck with google - or with that url.  I ended up on a
yahoogroup that I can't access - I'm not a member!

>> I wish I could see a literal chart, with lines, like family tree chart.
>> That would be great.  If you have one, can you supply the specific url?
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
> This virus (viruses?) was virulent 4-3 Ma, ie, probably after the H/P
> split.

If that split was in Africa, then yes, the virus had to be after.  As I
explained, even if they got far enough away 10 years prior - it would have
saved them from exposure.

>>> 4-2 Ma: IMO, fossil Gorilla species are found in Chad, Rift etc.:
>>> anamensis,
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
Marc Verhaegen - 17 Jul 2007 11:33 GMT
Op 17-07-2007 06:12, in artikel
JkXmi.9043$zA4.851@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm <comm@nospam.com>
schreef:
>> Op 16-07-2007 04:00, in artikel
>> pjAmi.8680$zA4.4266@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, Comm
>> <comm@nospam.com> schreef:
...

>>>>> Uh, upright gait doesn't mean they walked on two legs all the time.  I
>>>>> think
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>>>> Verhaegen's site, I think he's agreeing with me on that.  I think.....
>>>>> :)  What he writes ain't exactly for laymen :)

>>>> Some of my papers (eg, Hum.Evol.) are perhaps not so easy, but I thought
>>>> our
>>>> TREE paper (google "aquarboreal") was well readable for the interested
>>>> layman?

>>> I googled it, but I didn't find any chart.  I found a few articles, one
>>> requires a login and all that.  It's more or less what you wrote right
>>> here.

>> Yes.  If you want I send you the pdf of our TREE paper.  You can also find
>> it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT

> YES, please do - Email me at commissar at mail dot com   You can send pdf as
> an attachment, please.  I'd appreciate that.
> I'm not having luck with google - or with that url.  I ended up on a
> yahoogroup that I can't access - I'm not a member!

OK, done.

>>> I wish I could see a literal chart, with lines, like family tree chart.
>>> That would be great.  If you have one, can you supply the specific url?
>>> I
>>> googled aquaboreal and most of what came up was abstracts and usenet
>>> articles.

>> You googled "aquaRboreal"?  When I google it, it's the 2d result.

>>>> In short & in simple words, how I see great ape + human (hominids +
>>>> pongids)
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>>> Hum.Evol.papers, & there are a lot of more recent arguments that confirm
>>>> my ideas).

>>> I did read that when I finally found it. As I told Sylvia, you agree with
>>> what I said to her, but I based what I said on hunch, nothing more.

>>>> 18-17 Ma: Afro-Arabia approaches Eurasia, formation of island
>>>> archipelagoes
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>>>> shores & gradually lost most climbing features & developed some diving
>>>> skills).

>>> Question.  Were Homo in Africa at this time - or had their ancestors left
>>> prior to that?  I'm thinking about that baboon marker - that virus broke
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>> borne -
>>> so they couldn't have been too close by at all at the time.

>> IMO the H/P split was in Africa: all Pliocene hominid (sensu HPG) fossils
>> AFAWK are in Africa (Sahelanthr, Orrorin, Ardip, apiths), and P & G still
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> This virus (viruses?) was virulent 4-3 Ma, ie, probably after the H/P
>> split.

> If that split was in Africa, then yes, the virus had to be after.  As I
> explained, even if they got far enough away 10 years prior - it would have
> saved them from exposure.

Yes, but the time estimations are no problem.  H/P is probably c.5 Ma.  Our
ancestors' absence from Africa was probably 4-3 Ma.

>>>> 4-2 Ma: IMO, fossil Gorilla species are found in Chad, Rift etc.:
>>>> anamensis,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>>> ground, but was already partially seen in all E.Afr.apiths
>>>> (knuckle-walking is indeed more developed in G than in P).

>>> Again, this is the dating for that virus.  Homo ancestors couldn't
>>> possibly have been where these other species were.

>> *Human* ancestors, you mean?  Yes, likely.

>>>> 2-0 Ma:
>>>> - Later apiths 2-1 Ma (Ice Times = general cooling & drying in Africa)
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>>> teeth & very broad cheekteeth, in parallel to panda bears (cf.boisei
>>>> found in reed swamps or bamboo forests).