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Natural Science Forum / Biology / Paleontology / August 2007



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Article: Beyond Mesopotamia - A radical new view of human civilization reported

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Robert Karl Stonjek - 03 Aug 2007 02:21 GMT
Beyond Mesopotamia: A radical new view of human civilization reported

A radically expanded view of the origin of civilization, extending far beyond Mesopotamia, is reported by journalist Andrew Lawler in the 3 August issue of Science.

Mesopotamia is widely believed to be the cradle of civilization, but a growing body of evidence suggests that in addition to Mesopotamia, many civilized urban areas existed at the same time -
about 5,000 years ago - in an arc that extended from Mesopotamia east for thousands of kilometers across to the areas of modern India and Pakistan, according to Lawler.

"While Mesopotamia is still the cradle of civilization in the sense that urban evolution began there," Lawler said, "we now know that the area between Mesopotamia and India spawned a host of cities and cultures between 3000 B.C.E. and 2000 B.C.E."

Evidence of shared trade, iconography and other culture from digs in remote areas across this arc were presented last month at a meeting in Ravenna, Italy of the International Association for the Study of Early Civilizations in the Middle Asian Intercultural Space. The meeting was the first time that many archaeologists from more than a dozen countries gathered to discuss the fresh finds that point to this new view of civilization's start. Science's Lawler was the only journalist present.

Archaeologists shared findings from dozens of urban centers of approximately the same age that existed between Mesopotamia and the Indus River valley in modern day India and Pakistan. The researchers are just starting to sketch out this new landscape, but it's becoming clear that these centers traded goods and could have shared technology and architecture. Recovered artifacts such as beads, shells, vessels, seals and game boards show that a network linked these civilizations.

Researchers have also found hints, such as similar ceremonial platforms, that these cultures interacted and even learned from one another. A new excavation near Jiroft in southeastern Iran, for example, has unearthed tablets with an unknown writing system. This controversial find highlights the complexity of the cultures in an area long considered a backwater, Lawler explained.

These urban centers are away from the river valleys that archaeologists have traditionally focused on, according to Lawler. Archaeologists now have access to more remote locations and are expanding their studies.

Source: American Association for the Advancement of Science
http://www.physorg.com/news105283490.html

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Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek

vyasrr@gmail.com - 05 Aug 2007 09:27 GMT
dear mr.Robert Karl Stonjek,
i am indian. by profession an engineer.
interested in indus valley civilization.....details.
i would like to draw yr attention on sumerian ...and  indian
simillarity  in old records..
i.e. in indan old books..we mention.. mountain called ..SUMERU
MOUNTAIN..
..also there is story in old books ...of...SAMUDRA MANTHAN...(sanskrit
langauage)..i.e. STURRERING OF OCEAN..with epicenter as SUMERU
MOUNTAIN..
THIS IS MYTH PRESERVED IN OLD INDIAN STORIES...SINCE LONG.
DURING STURRERING OF  SUMERU MOUNTAIN aryans recd ... precious
stones..jewellery...toxic element(which was swelloed by lord shiva)
also THERE IS STORY OF GRAET FLOOD ...MENTIONED IN SUMERIAN HISTORY AS
WELL IN INDIAN HISTORY.
in india, we have calender as old as year 3102 bc.which is called as
YUGABD( yug abd..i.e. yug=old  ...abd=time)
at present our yugabd calender year is 5109...(we believe that life
started after great flood by that time.)
in sumerian history...great flood time is mention as @ 3000 years bc.
in this way both ..i.e.indian and sumerian..history speaks with same
tone.
i have certain information on indian history related to pre
harrapan...time also.
in case you are interested ,pl. comunicate.
i may not be able to reply immediately as , i hae to devote my time in
my profession ..i.e. enginnering..
but. certainly i can try to respond you in the matter.
with best regards.
R.R.VYAS

On Aug 3, 6:21 am, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <ston...@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
> Beyond Mesopotamia: A radical new view of human civilization reported
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Posted by
> Robert Karl Stonjek
nickname - 12 Aug 2007 20:28 GMT
On Aug 5, 1:27 am, vya...@gmail.com wrote:
> dear mr.Robert Karl Stonjek,
> i am indian. by profession an engineer.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> > Posted by
> > Robert Karl Stonjek

What is the full ancient name of Madras, India? Is it Sumadra? That
would fit with Mt Sumeru, Sumatra, Sumeria, etc. (IIRC Finnish people
are called Suomea, possibly an ancient derivative of a northern boat
migrating population).

Notably, in many near languages is the word for sea or lake or marsh,
mire, moor, mar, marina, etc. Also the name Malaya derived from
Sumalaya, Malaaca from Sumalaka etc.

AFAIK, Homo sapiens is defined by waterborne trade along coasts and
rivers, with the Sumerians developing an improved notation system due
to further complexities, but trade existed far far earlier.
DD
arclein - 08 Aug 2007 06:17 GMT
On Aug 2, 6:21 pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <ston...@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
> Beyond Mesopotamia: A radical new view of human civilization reported
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Posted by
> Robert Karl Stonjek

I maintain a principle thesis that bronze age culture, while
illiterate, was global in extent and required a form of stable long
lasting rule to accumulate copper which was the main source of wealth
for the leadership.  Hell, read Homer.  The global extent of that
demand is slowly becomng apparent.  This is yet another confirmation

I maintain a blog on global warming and I have prepared a manuscript:
Paradigms Shift which touches on this likely background.

vivit me at: http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com

and:  http://arclein-paradigmsshift.blogspot.com

regards

arclein
Larry Caldwell - 11 Aug 2007 20:06 GMT
> I maintain a principle thesis that bronze age culture, while
> illiterate, was global in extent and required a form of stable long
> lasting rule to accumulate copper which was the main source of wealth
> for the leadership.  

Don't you mean neolithic?  Writing was invented in the late neolithic.  
By the beginning of the bronze age, literature had a good start.  We are
fortunate that the clay Sumerian tablets were fired to ceramic and
survived, or we would be left with nothing but monumental inscriptions
from the early days of writing.

The early Sumerian records are trade bookkeeping, and show that there
were many sources of wealth available at the dawn of writing.  

> Hell, read Homer.  

Homer was iron age.  

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Paul Crowley - 11 Aug 2007 22:49 GMT
>> I maintain a principle thesis that bronze age culture, while
>> illiterate, was global in extent and required a form of stable long
>> lasting rule to accumulate copper which was the main source of wealth
>> for the leadership.
>
> Don't you mean neolithic?  Writing was invented in the late neolithic.

How do you know?

> By the beginning of the bronze age, literature had a good start.  We are
> fortunate that the clay Sumerian tablets were fired to ceramic and
> survived,

The existence of copious records close to
the supposed beginning of an invention
is more than a little suspicious.

> or we would be left with nothing but monumental inscriptions
> from the early days of writing.

Should we expect to find monumental
inscriptions whenever writing is present
in a culture?

In any case, the great bulk of buildings
created prior to 12.5 kya would now be
under a couple of hundred feet of water,

> The early Sumerian records are trade bookkeeping, and show that there
> were many sources of wealth available at the dawn of writing.

Oops, I forgot.  All humans did before
12.5 kya was wander around in small
peripatetic H/G groups.   Silly me.

Paul.
nickname - 12 Aug 2007 00:59 GMT
On Aug 11, 2:49 pm, "Paul Crowley"
<slkwuoiutiuytciu...@slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote:

> > In article <1186550269.929200.277...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > arcl...@gmail.com (arclein) says...
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Paul.

TRADE via boats, trading centers with parasitical temples and (land-
based) kings started the monuments, taxes, writing in a sustainable
manner. Look at all the port communities along the rivers that have Ur
or Sumer or a variant in their names. Somalia, Sumeria, Samaria,
Sumatra, Samarkand were all river/coastal trading posts. So many more.
Larry Caldwell - 12 Aug 2007 09:12 GMT
> > Don't you mean neolithic?  Writing was invented in the late neolithic.
>
> How do you know?

If you want to talk about writing, you should read more.

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MClark - 12 Aug 2007 12:36 GMT
>> > Don't you mean neolithic?  Writing was invented in the late neolithic.
>>
>> How do you know?
>
> If you want to talk about writing, you should read more.

Elsewhere, Pauly has claimed that he doesn't read the peer-reviewed
literature --presumeably because of all the fatuous nonsense contained
therein.  Now we know that this self imposed exile extends outside the
bounds of PA.

I'm shocked.  SHOCKED, I tell you.... :-)

Signature

"For whosoever quoteth scripture endlessly
hath neither job nor hobby." II Mumbleonians 4:19

Paul Crowley - 12 Aug 2007 13:31 GMT
>> > Don't you mean neolithic?  Writing was invented in the late neolithic.
>>
>> How do you know?
>
> If you want to talk about writing, you should read more.

You can identify an ignorant fool
from one post.  And they will always
go on to confirm it in the next.

This one believes that the source of
all knowledge is 'books', and that the
answer to every question is to be
found in one -- somewhere.

Paul.
MClark - 12 Aug 2007 16:27 GMT
>>> > Don't you mean neolithic?  Writing was invented in the late neolithic.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> answer to every question is to be
> found in one -- somewhere.

Pauly, I don't know how you do it.  You must have
a basement full of these.....

"You can identify an ignorant fool from one post.
And they will always go on to confirm it in the next."
Pauly --8/12/2007

Such beautiful irony.

> Paul.
Signature

"For whosoever quoteth scripture endlessly
hath neither job nor hobby." II Mumbleonians 4:19

Larry Caldwell - 12 Aug 2007 21:54 GMT
> You can identify an ignorant fool
> from one post.

You got that part right, at least.  

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For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

cormac - 08 Aug 2007 06:50 GMT
On Aug 3, 2:21 am, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <ston...@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
> Beyond Mesopotamia: A radical new view of human civilization reported
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Posted by
> Robert Karl Stonjek

This is not new. Mohenjodaro was excavated at least 70 years ago. I
don't have the exact date. There of course many other very ancient
sites, some now submerged by the sea.

Cormac.
 
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