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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Particle Physics / September 2004



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Quick Speed of Light Question

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GoldenBoar - 24 Sep 2004 19:24 GMT
If the speed of light in a vacuum is  299,792,458 m/s exactly, what is the
speed of light in space and what factors are involved in its calculation?
GoldenBoar - 25 Sep 2004 18:49 GMT
> If the speed of light in a vacuum is  299,792,458 m/s exactly, what is  
> the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004

This was supposed to be a quick and easy question, but either the question  
is too dificult or you guys think it stupid. For those in the latter  
category, space is not a vacuum remember. A vacuum should have a  
temperature of 0 K, space has a temperature of 2.7 K.

So i guess what I am really asking is the difference in speed caused by a  
temperature of 2.7 K.

After searching the internet unsuccesfully for an answer, this speed was  
referred to as both the speed of light in a vacuum and in space.

Is this a measurement of the speed of light in a vacuum, or the speed of  
light in space?

Could someone please answer this question, which I thought would be easy  
for you guys.
GoldenBoar - 26 Sep 2004 02:46 GMT
>> If the speed of light in a vacuum is  299,792,458 m/s exactly, what is  
>> the
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Could someone please answer this question, which I thought would be easy  
> for you guys.

For anyone wondering about this, I found an equation on Wikipedia:

E=kT

where E is the Energy
k is the Boltzmann Constant
and T is the Temperature

From this, you can see that if T=0 then E=0. This tells us that the speed  
of light in a vacuum is not 299,792,458 m/s, but is in fact 0, meaning  
light cannot travel in a vacuum.

If light cannot travel in a vacuum, why does the universe exist?

If c is actually 0 in a vacuum, then the other vacuum properties are also  
0.

What is going on here? Is the above equation wrong? Are the equations  
relating Planck's constant, frequency, wavelength, and the speed of light  
wrong?

Thanks for all your responses, they were so helpful to me.
Paul Draper - 27 Sep 2004 14:39 GMT
> >> If the speed of light in a vacuum is  299,792,458 m/s exactly, what is  
> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Thanks for all your responses, they were so helpful to me.

Oh my, now I think I see why you got so many responses. Be very, very
careful with equations. Physics formulas are an extreme version of
shorthand, designed to provide mathematical rigor but leaving out
virtually all of the physical meaning, which is assumed to be in the
head of the reader. In this case, the assumption is poor.

You show E=kT, and I call and raise with E=pc, E=(1/2)mv^2, E = T+V, E
= (1/2)kA^2, E=hf, and E=mc^2. Unless you can understand and
distinguish between the context of what E means in each of these
cases, you have no business pulling meaning out of a Wikipedia fomula.

PD
GoldenBoar - 27 Sep 2004 17:01 GMT
>> >> If the speed of light in a vacuum is  299,792,458 m/s exactly, what  
>> is
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>
> PD

My original question is still unanswered.

Imagine a boy in school who asks the teacher a question. The teacher  
completely ignores the boy. The next day, the boy asks the teacher the  
same question, and once again is ignored. On the third day, the boy goes  
to the library to try and find an answer to the question. He then asks the  
teacher the question again, and explains that he found an answer in the  
library, but believes it to be wrong, and asks the teacher why this is so.  
The tacher replies, "You have no business being in a library!"

What does this say about the teacher?
What does this say about the child?

2 words come to mind immediately, ignorance and arrogance.
Paul Draper - 28 Sep 2004 17:02 GMT
> > Oh my, now I think I see why you got so many responses. Be very, very
> > careful with equations. Physics formulas are an extreme version of
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> 2 words come to mind immediately, ignorance and arrogance.

Point taken. To answer your question, the background radiation of
space (2.7K) is "uncoupled" from the universe. That's why it is an
accurate remnant of that period 400,000 years after the Big Bang. As
such, it does not effectively change the speed of light in space
compared to the vacuum. Now, interstellar gas does have an effect, but
interstellar gas is so dilute that (I believe) the increment above 1
for the index of refraction is too small to be measured. I would be
thrilled to learn otherwise from someone who knows the measurements
better.

As to your object lesson, I would modify the parable.
Imagine a boy who asks a teacher a question. The teacher doesn't
understand the question. The boy repeats the question, which is "What
is 12-5?". The teacher says, "It's in your textbook, and it's part of
your homework. Why are you asking me for the answer you should be
learning yourself?" The boy doesn't like that answer and goes to the
library and finds an algebra book. The boy spends endless hours
frowning at the algebra book and then, after some days, comes back to
the teacher and says, "This book says 12-5 = x." The teacher says,
"Silly child. You refuse to do your homework. Stop studying a book you
are not ready for yet. When you have learned some arithmetic and
showed me you know how to do that, I will show you some algebra."
What does this say about the student?
What does this say about the teacher?
2 words come to mind: stubborness and laziness.

PD
10of100 - 27 Sep 2004 17:01 GMT
> >> If the speed of light in a vacuum is  299,792,458 m/s exactly, what is  
> >> the
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Thanks for all your responses, they were so helpful to me.

Boltzmann factor relates more to thermodynamics perticularly the
entropy of a body, ie. has mass. As far as I can tell it really does
not relate to the velocity's.
Think of the speed of light in a vacuum to be the speed a photon is at
when it's not encountering an atom or external field. A photon seems
to slow down when it has to go from atom to atom in a transparent
media, think of a photon as a bumper cars that has to bounce off of
other cars to make it's way through to finish line, as compared to a
car that is by itself. They can both be moving at the same speed, but
since the one has all the other cars in its way, it tends to get to
the finish last.
 
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