Virtual particles for the confused
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Paul Draper - 07 Oct 2004 20:12 GMT A brief primer on "virtual" particles, for those who are uncomfortable with the topic.
It's actually an arbitrary line between real and virtual particles. Real particles are ones that have been around infinitely long and therefore have no uncertainty in their invariant mass, but that's an asymptotic condition, something like "perfect". In reality, there's only various degrees of near-perfect observed but never perfect.
In a Feynman diagram, you are tracing a possible "route" between initial and final state particles, which may include internal lines representing particles neither in the initial or final state. These particles are called virtual particles in this context, though note that in a real experiment, even the final state particles have to interact with the detector, which makes them virtual... But let's set that last point aside and just say we want to know the rate at which a particular final state emerges from a particular initial state.
A given Feynman diagram may be one of several of the same complexity, and in general one of infinitely many of different complexities, that are all possible "routes" between the initial and final states. What this means is that the initial and final states might be (and in fact are) created by a vast number of different possible processes. To get the right answer for how often the final state gets created from the initial state, we add up the amplitude (related to the likelihood) of each one and -- here's where it gets a little weird -- we only get the right answer if we add them up as though they were all happening at the same time.
Another interesting facet of a single Feynman diagram is that it really represents a sum (integral) over all possible momentum and energy values of the internal lines, or rather, those that obey the conservation of energy and momentum. What this means is, you can't tell by looking at a diagram what the momentum and energy of all the internal lines are going to be, and so you have to sum over all the possible momenta they can have -- again as though they were all happening at the same time.
Every "vertex" in a Feynman diagram represents part of an interaction -- a photon is emitted from an electron, a W+ is emitted from a u quark, etc. What's important to recognize is, virtual or not, every vertex strictly conserves energy and momentum. Taking a step back, this means that energy and momentum conservation apply rigorously and *exactly* throughout the Feynman diagram. Of course, this means that the initial and final states will have the same total energy and the same total momentum.
But here's the rub. Even though energy and momentum are individual conserved, the invariant mass of the virtual particle do NOT have to correspond to what you would expect the invariant mass of that particle to be if it were real. For example, an internal line in a Feynman diagram can be an electron, identified by its quantum numbers (electric charge, lepton number) and the vertex can conserve momentum and energy exactly, but the invariant mass of the virtual electron need not be 511 keV. Likewise, an internally radiated photon will conserve momentum and energy at every vertex in which it participates, but its invariant mass will not necessarily be zero. Of course, the invariant mass of the final state has to be the same as the invariant mass of the initial state, but that's not the same constraint.
There are three arguments why we should allow this behavior. * First, the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle says that it's not unreasonable and in fact it's expected. * Second, if you don't allow it, you don't get the right answers for the rates from the initial to final states from the calculated sum; and you do if you do allow it. * Third, we have a big library of particles that only live a short lifetime, some long enough for us to spot directly and track directly in a detector, others only indirectly. In all such cases, we can still reconstruct the momentum and energy of the transient beast, either directly or by measuring the momentum and energy of the final state it produces, and then we can calculate the beast's invariant mass. And what we find is that the invariant mass from a collection of such measurements does not produce a single number but a distribution of numbers -- a peak in a distribution vs mass, with a definite width. And once again, the width of that peak depends on how short-lived the particle is, again consistent with the uncertainty principle. Note that I do not have to ASSUME the uncertainty principle to confirm it in this measurement. I just have to assume energy and momentum conservation and calculate the invariant mass. There is no circular logic. In any event, the noted behavior is, the shorter the lifetime of the particle, the wider the distribution of mass -- the more "off-shell" the particle is likely to be found. In this sense, particles that happen to have the central mass value in this distribution are no less "virtual" than the ones that are far off-shell. They just happen to be in that part of the distribution. This width has nothing to do with experimental uncertainty. Even after the resolution of the measurement has been deconvoluted, a width of physical origin remains.
Nearly-real particles, ones with long lifetimes, have very narrow mass distributions, so that the peak mass is very nearly always the mass you will measure in all measurements. For example, for photons that have traveled long distances, the invariant mass -- as calculated from momentum and energy -- will always be indistiguishable from zero, and this has other implications about helicity states and so on.
What this means is that the value of mass is not an intrinsic property of a particle. The value of electric charge, the value of color charge, the value of baryon number, the value of lepton number all might be intrinsic properties of a particle, but not the value of its mass.
In short, there is nothing magic about virtual particles. If anything, their prevalence tells us that our notions that we attach to "real" particles are things we should let go of as being overly constraining, overly confining.
PD
Monitek - 10 Oct 2004 15:59 GMT >From: pdraper@yahoo.com (Paul Draper) >Date: 07/10/2004 20:12 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] >momentum and energy -- will always be indistiguishable from zero, and >this has other implications about helicity states and so on. snip----------
Thats a bit vague, now I dont know if neutrons are real or virtual. Maybe they are real in the nucleus and virtual outside it.
Regards, Monitek
FrediFizzx - 10 Oct 2004 19:38 GMT | >From: pdraper@yahoo.com (Paul Draper) | >Date: 07/10/2004 20:12 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] | Thats a bit vague, now I dont know if neutrons are real or virtual. Maybe they | are real in the nucleus and virtual outside it. Do you mean because free neutrons decay to protons, etc. that they might be virtual? I think its better to use the virtual connotation for elementary fermions and bosons only. This is easy to imagine in our vacuum charge model combined with the dual space concept. In this model, if the charged elementary fermion is in the other space of dual space, then it is "less than virtual". If it is somewhere between the "other" space and our space, it is virtual. If mostly into our space, then it might be considered real. However, this can be a grey area as all "real" fermions maintain a "connection" with the other space. Which goes to what PD is saying. The grey area disappears macroscopically. There is no question as to what is real macroscopically. Also in this model, gauge bosons are re-interpreted as always composites of virtual elementary fermions.
All this business of "real" and "virtual" is just bad language as far as I am concerned. Of course it would all have to be "real". Is a free neutron real? Sure. Is a virtual electron-positron pair real? Sure. At least IMHO.
FrediFizzx
InductHeat - 11 Oct 2004 09:28 GMT >From: "FrediFizzx" fredifizzx@hotmail.com >Date: 10/10/04 19:38 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >| >asymptotic condition, something like "perfect". In reality, there's >| >only various degrees of near-perfect observed but never perfect. snip-------------
>| >Nearly-real particles, ones with long lifetimes, have very narrow mass >| >distributions, so that the peak mass is very nearly always the mass [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >FrediFizzx It is the statement : "Nearly-real particles, ones with long lifetimes", I am taking issue with.
Free neutrons, with a life time of 8 - 15 mins, might be considered to be virtual by this definition. I believe that neutrons are real because they can kill me!
Regards, Monitek (Arden Barker)
Paul Draper - 11 Oct 2004 20:49 GMT > >From: "FrediFizzx" fredifizzx@hotmail.com > >Date: 10/10/04 19:38 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > virtual by this definition. I believe that neutrons are real because they can > kill me! In the sense that free neutrons have a finite lifetime, yes, they are virtual, and their mass distribution shows a (small) width.
As I said originally, the boundary between real and virtual is an arbitrary line on a continuum. It makes no real sense, strictly speaking, to make the distinction.
Your assertion that neutrons must be considered real because they have lasting effects reveals a bias in your internal definition, as if virtual particles are imaginary and can't have any real effects. That's incorrect. Virtual particles are just as powerful as real particles. Consider a muon with a lifetime of 2.2 microseconds that can cause genetic damage via their population in cosmic rays. If 2.2 microseconds is still too long to be considered virtual, then where would you draw the line? Consider the pion with a lifetime of 26 nanoseconds, which can leave a trace in a bubble chamber meters long. Is 26 nanoseconds too long?
PD
Monitek - 12 Oct 2004 04:52 GMT >From: pdraper@yahoo.com (Paul Draper) >Date: 11/10/2004 20:49 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > >PD My definition of real and virtual is much simpler than that. If a particle has measurable effects on real particles then that particle itself is real.
Regards, Monitek (Arden Barker)
FrediFizzx - 12 Oct 2004 01:11 GMT | >From: "FrediFizzx" fredifizzx@hotmail.com | >Date: 10/10/04 19:38 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] | "Nearly-real particles, ones with long lifetimes", | I am taking issue with. "Nearly-real" is not a good way to put it. It is all real.
| Free neutrons, with a life time of 8 - 15 mins, might be considered to be | virtual by this definition. I believe that neutrons are real because they can | kill me! As I mentioned, IMHO it is really an unfortunate circumstance of the language. Paul Draper's description is a good one. Virtual does not have to mean "unreal". So the bad term here is "real". "On mass shell" and "off mass shell" are the proper descriptions for elementary fermions and bosons.
FrediFizzx
Monitek - 12 Oct 2004 05:02 GMT >From: "FrediFizzx" fredifizzx@hotmail.com >Date: 12/10/2004 01:11 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > >FrediFizzx As a general rule I agree with you. However I am not totally happy with the lifetime of a particle being a measure of reality of vituality. I would say that if a particle can be measured either directly or indirectly it is real.
As you know I am a fan of the idea that all matter is a construct of positronium, a state between annihilation and separate existance, if that is possible. Therefore, all constructs of real particles must be real. The particles zoo is an example of the variety of structures, though most of them seem to be unstable.
I will say I have never considered before the above definition of virtuality.
Regards, Monitek (Arden Barker)
Paul Draper - 12 Oct 2004 17:07 GMT > I will say I have never considered before the above definition of virtuality. and in another post
> My definition of real and virtual is much simpler than that. If a particle has > measurable effects on real particles then that particle itself is real. In that case, by your definition all particles are real. However, I was explaining the meaning of the term "virtual particle" as most physicists use it. Again, one of the key things about physics is a very clear, precise definition of terms. In common conversation, "force" and "speed" and "momentum" and "energy" (as ascribed to a football running back) can all be synonymous. In physics, they most certainly cannot. If you don't want to use the definitions that physicists use in your own theories, then you should first learn the definitions they do use, and then clearly indicate where your definitions differ. Otherwise folks will assume you don't know what you're talking about, because what you say sounds garbled.
PD
Monitek - 13 Oct 2004 11:36 GMT >From: pdraper@yahoo.com (Paul Draper) >Date: 12/10/04 17:07 GMT Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >PD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle
Seems to sum it up in as much as a virtual particle can not be the end result of a process, which is a bit loose. If you consider combined e-p pairs as virtual particles is the combined pair a different object to the two separated or is it a variation in the location of the particles.
For me particles that are definitely, certainly in this part of the universe, candidates for the "virtual" status are anti-gravitons.
Yes you are right I would say that all particles that have measurable effects on real particles are real and unreservedly apologise for my heretical views.
Regards,
Monitek (Arden Barker)
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