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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Particle Physics / October 2004



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Quantum randomness and underlying physics

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Paul Draper - 20 Oct 2004 14:19 GMT
A while ago there was a discussion about nuclear radioactive decay and
how it is an inherently random process. Quantum mechanics avers that,
at some level, there no point in asking what *causes* a nucleus to
decay. In fact, QM forces the abandonment of inner, deterministic cogs
and wheels that would more deeply account for the nuclear state with
an intrinsic half-life (decay probability). There's been much
historical gnashing about whether that's due to the act of measurement
disturbing the measured quantity, or due to a spread wavefunction that
collapses only at the point of measurement, or whatever, but that's
largely beside the point/question I want to pose here.

The problem is, we *do* understand the nucleus at a level more
fundamental than just the nucleus-as-a-random-entity. We can describe
it as a collection of nucleons, or as a collection of nucleons and
(more) virtual mesons, or -- if we are ambitious -- with QCD, perhaps
using a lattice calculation and a bunch of computers.

So -- and here's the question -- where does the inherent randomness of
the nuclear decay get transferred in the deeper explanation? Assuming
that the inherent randomness of QM persists and does not get replaced
by a purely deterministic description, this randomness must express
itself in the underlying nuclear shell model or QCD or whatever, so
that the purely random nature of the nuclear decay is accounted for by
that.

What are your thoughts on this? For the purpose of this thread, I
would ask that we assume that the indeterminacy of QM is assumed and
that we not bog down the discussion with cries that "QM is bogus and
the universe really is deterministic -- even Einstein said so."

PD
Chris Dams - 20 Oct 2004 15:39 GMT
Dear Paul,

>So -- and here's the question -- where does the inherent randomness of
>the nuclear decay get transferred in the deeper explanation? Assuming
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>that the purely random nature of the nuclear decay is accounted for by
>that.

The decay of a particle can occur because a discrete state is coupled
to a continuum. In perterbation theory the Hilbert space of the
unperturbed system built up from this discrete state, with a certain energy
and a continuum of states having energies in an interval that includes the
energy of the discrete state. If the coupling is switched on, it turns
out that the only energy eigenstates left will be in a continuum. I.e.,
the discrete state is no longer necesary to satisfy completeness of states.
If the interaction is sufficiently weak, it will be possible to preapare a
system in the discrete state. This is, however, not anymore an eigenstate
of the full Hamiltionian, and one can ask the question what the probability
is that after some time the discrete state is still measured to be in the
discrete state. This will (approximately) be a decaying exponential. A
quantitative version of this sketchy description can be found, for instance,
in quant-ph/0202105.

I think a microscopic model of the nucleus could, in principle, be used
to express the wave function of the nucleus into wave functions of its
constituents and the same for the wave functions of decay products.
Then it should be possible to calculate from first principles how the
discrete state can be expressed in continuum states. This would make the
mathematics of cited paper more explicit, but I think, it would not really
change anything to the way one would think about a decay. Decays are about
coupling a single state to a continuum.

Best wishes,
Chris
FrediFizzx - 20 Oct 2004 18:18 GMT
| A while ago there was a discussion about nuclear radioactive decay and
| how it is an inherently random process. Quantum mechanics avers that,
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
| that we not bog down the discussion with cries that "QM is bogus and
| the universe really is deterministic -- even Einstein said so."

Seems like it is just another duality to me.  Randomness and order.  You
can't have one without the other.

FrediFizzx
Gnivrac - 22 Oct 2004 15:00 GMT
Consider the possibilities inherent in the idea that information can travel at
the velocity limits imposed by SR. For the case of information endoded by
energy (mass), this velocity limit is the velocity of light. If one considers
information encoded in the polarization angle of a photon, a quantum phenomena,
the velocity limit for the propagation of information is infinite sinc the
Lorentz Transformation for Angle is unity!. This means that, if the decay of
particles is caused by quantum effects, consideration must be givent to the
possibility that the quantum  effect involved is the vector sum of all of the
sources in the universe. The effect on the occurrence of radioactive decay
wuold then be chaotic and not random. Considering the number of particles in
the universe it is probably impossible to distinguish between chaos and tru
randomness. If the former is the case then the future of the universe and its
contents was predetermined at the start.

Einsteinhoax@aol.com
FrediFizzx - 23 Oct 2004 05:24 GMT
| Consider the possibilities inherent in the idea that information can travel at
| the velocity limits imposed by SR. For the case of information endoded by
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
| randomness. If the former is the case then the future of the universe and its
| contents was predetermined at the start.

To whom are you replying?  Please learn how to not bugger the thread
attributes.  I have AOL so I know it is possible to reply to a message
without messing up the quoted text and attributes.  It is called copy and
paste.

FrediFizzx
 
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