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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Particle Physics / January 2005Electron energy levels force field
About a hundred years ago when the Rutherbord atom was accepted. People couldn't figure out how the electron move around the nucleus. They reasoned it couldn't be orbiting because it would emit light, loose its energy and eventually fall into the nucleus. Bohr suggested there might be something like energy levels. Spectra experiments supported the model so it's became accepted and later upgraded with quantum probability clouds but the essence of the orbitals and energy levels stuff is still the same. I'd like to know if an instrument or whatever has actually mapped the atom and confirmed that there are indeed energy levels where electrons can jump. According to physics, the lowest state is the ground state. What create, support or stabilize the ground states and highre states? Why is it there? What principles can create them? Lastly. How are the electrons of the atom relates to the nucleus's "positive charge" while being "shielded" by all the lower negative energy levels?? Anyone? Lawrence some shoking news for you 1 the electron does not orbit it vibrates and connected directly to the nuc as along chain of orbitas since it is connested to the nuc - it does not fall into it 2 the one electron per one proton is right only fo rlight emelents so again nothing to look for 'shielding or screening 3 qm never went much further tan the iron element in a thorough solotion any be here and there some partial solution. if you dont get it you will spend the rest of your life and your granchildres life asking the same questions. -------------------- all th ebest Y.Porat ---------------- > some shoking news for you > > 1 the electron does not orbit it vibrates and connected directly to the > nuc > as along chain of orbitas > since it is connested to the nuc - it does not fall into it Of course I know electrons don't orbit like satellite. I'm not that stupid. But I'm just wondering about those shells like s, p, d, f. What create them? Furthermore, there are ground states in each shell. So with many lower ground states, how can the outer valence electrons relate to the nucleus positive charge producing the overall atomic charge balance. You know? Lawrence you ask very cleaver questions and you know - a good question is half the way to the answer yet i am not sure you understood what i told you (probably my fault) imho (nad findings) if the electron is not something far away from the nuc it stems * out of it! as a branch of a tree stems out of the stem that noting of it can fall into the nuc because ....... it already fell to it !!! now you ask so waht are those different energy levels that are found in the spectrum ie heighr and lower frqeencies? highr and lower frequencies means higher and lowe vibrations of those 'branches that pruduced it!! if a wind that blows on that branch becomes stronger the branch will vibrate quicker and even migh tproduce highr harmonics in it (thatis methaphoric of course) that branch can get into resonance!! ie its movement will fititself to the frequency of the driving 'blowes of wind and the amplitude of its movement will grow and grow (that is resonance) (like in earth quakes that sutter buildings) to that resonance situation is the excited situation that people talk about and then in the wind calms down you come back to your 'ground satte' it istangible?? now such an explanation is sort of 'God forbidd' for Qm you know why because they make their living from abstract explanations abstract is a nice trick but as you become more abstarct you becom- less usefull as i tolsd you qm could not do much further than the iron element and that is not accidental!1 it will never go much furthere because of its false asumptions the shell model for heavy elements is one example of false assumptions!! so if you ask questions about how all those shells and subshells are settled down with reality *you are wasting your precious time you will nevsr do it no one will ever do it just guess why !!!!! all those stories about shells and subshells sometimes 6 shels and 6 subshels or God knows what are nice fairy tales for little children invented by ....... (i refrain from saying crooks may be they had some good intentions) in such a mess of those shells and subshels of a heavy atom it is not onlypeople who 'loos they hands and leggs' even God in not clever enough to deal with such a fantastic situation! hope i made myself a tiny bit more clear ps not long ago i raised a challenge to the scontific 'comunity' to bring experimental evidence of each one of the electrons in its exactlocation of shell and subshell----- no one even started to start it !1 you can be sure that onxce such evidence was available it would appear heare in this ng becaise a lot ofpeople read it. ---------------- all the best Y.Porat --------------- > you ask very cleaver questions > and you know - a good question is half the way to the answer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that noting of it can fall into the nuc because ....... > it already fell to it !!! So you are saying that the nuclues is like a seed and it grows trees and branches where the electrons can stay. But why does the seed or atom create branches and how did it do that? Can you draw what you are describing? Lawrence > > you ask very cleaver questions > > and you know - a good question is half the way to the answer [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > But why does the seed or atom create branches and how > did it do that? Can you draw what you are describing? I hope you're not trying to learn quantum mechanics on the net. Education from the net is like eating from a dumpster. You may find something nourishing or you may find something rotten and festering. PD > > > you ask very cleaver questions > > > and you know - a good question is half the way to the answer [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > something nourishing or you may find something rotten and festering. > PD I didn't say I believe in Y.Porat. He is just describing his hypothesis and I'm just listening to its logic wondering what made him believe that way. About Quantum Mechanics which deals with discreteness. Do you truly believe the electrons can kinda teleport from places to places within the nucleus and not behave in a continuous manner? Many just focus on the mathematics and disregard the physical correlates. But the latter is important too. Or do you think that Quantum Mechanics is about not thinking of the physical correlates as there is none or unimaginaable? Suppose you are an electron and you are docking in the hydrogen atom. What do you think would you be doing at this very moment? What do you think? Lawrence > > > > you ask very cleaver questions > > > > and you know - a good question is half the way to the answer [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > from places to places within the nucleus and not behave > in a continuous manner? Yeah, I guess I do, because if it were not the case, then I would see experimental evidence that I do not see. I've just had to get used to the idea. > Many just focus on the > mathematics and disregard the physical correlates. But > the latter is important too. Or do you think that Quantum > Mechanics is about not thinking of the physical correlates > as there is none or unimaginaable? Quantum mechanics comes with a warning that nature is what it is, and if we try to shoehorn an object in nature into one of our own concepts, we have no one to blame but ourselves for the poor fit. > Suppose you are an electron and you are docking in the > hydrogen atom. What do you think would you be doing > at this very moment? What do you think? You're extrapolating continuous, smooth behavior, which you know and are familiar with from your senses in a macroscopic world. What makes you think that the universe must behave the same way at all scales? Let me take a familiar example. Someone watching TV or a cinema for the first time would find it inconceivable that what they are watching is not smooth continuous motion at all, but a series of snapshots, discrete in time -- quantized! It is only in seeing how a film strip slowly sped up leads to smoothness in a "continuum limit" that the viewer abandons the notion that the film or the TV show *must* be also continuous. Suspend your disbelief for a moment until you see two things: 1. How quantum mechanics actually does the trick to predict reality. 2. How the continuum limit in quantum mechanics actually merges into classical, continuous physics. PD qm does not do the trick to predict reality it is doing trickes of decieving people with fase self credit it is far from solving the atomic structre all along theperoidic table it deas not go much furter than the Iron element now you your desccrete show': it ias righ tthat the soectrun is descrete but who on earth told you that the *machine that creates those spectra is not continuous?? itis chetiong to tell someone suspend you disbeleif' the fact that you have a partial success deon not mean you have it all along! that success of yourse is accidental and partial and once you what to go further you are stuck in the mudd. does that fact that you cant go further *does not mean anything for you Mr Ostridge?? the continouos spectra can ve produces by a longish particles that behaves like a vibrating rodd tha stems out directly out od the nuc and leaning on it !! could that ocure to one who does nt give a damn on ramgible posisibilities and hides (forever ) behind abstact vague matemathical formula?? and then has the gutts to tell people do not learn from X just learn from Y while X and Y are nothing more than crookish vane ignorants while they dominant virtue is vanity and empthy arrogance!! ------------------------ Y.Porat yes i can draw anyway any drawing will be a methaphorick pictures just keep in mind that all the crooks around you that dare to slaeak against me do not even dare to imagine somwething actual they are matemathics parrots that present too abstract descriptions that are of little use just because they are too abstract i can say in a paraphrase on Einstein: "God dinnt play abstract matemathics' the abstract situationis just a coverup of *arrogant* again *arrogant ignorants* that are more personal politiciance than real scintists. (thats why they are so 'successful 'in our society) now to your question: i would not call it a 'seed' because a seed is something speric (more or less) my ' nuc' that is described not only for hydrogen but all laong the periodic table !! i didnt stop at the iron element with the excuse of 'lack of computer power i went with it all laong the 92 elements with much data substantiatins ie nuclar facts chemical facts cristallography etc i will nott say the i substantiated it by the spectra data because.... i never invested in that area any efforth but that does not put in shade the other acheivement it cannot be done by a one mans work with limited resourses others will go on with my model and will prevail at the long run. so the nuc is not a sphere it is a longish shape sort of a 'rectangular pipe (from Fluorine upward) more exact an octaheder pipe' composed by alpha particle quartets that make each quartet to be like a section of a pipe those quartets combine *linearily' more mad more and thas where the menfeliev periodic table secret lies. cant tell you here in a short description0 so we have not a sphere but something elongated now the main 'trick' of all that story is 'The chain of orbitals' idea ie orbitals that untill now pople thing only about juast one separted orbitas my discovery or if you like revolutionary findind is that: *orbitals - even of diffeent ordwer and size- can *combile* to some chain of orbitals!!* if you got that you got the main point and breakthrough of my theory!! ie the chain of orbitals is not only of electrons it enables nuclear and mediating orbitas and electron orbitals to combine into one long chain!1 once you get it the continuity of nuc to electron is not any more problem! btw another revolutionary esential for advance finding is that the asumption of ' electron for each proton ' is right only for light elements!!!!! that is realy something very difficult to digest but thats it acording to my findings and the existing theory actually failes to disporove my claim the existing theory in mumbling while trying todescribe all those shells ans subshells and as i saw that you as well are breaking your teet with the *right* and cleaver questions about how can that be settled logicallt it simply des not make sense thjat a nuc of say 90 protons will so acurately control 90 electrons around it by a mysterious 'remote control' that is actually not explained and more important it remains just hand waving!! no one can bring experimantal data to prove the existance of 90 electrons in their shells ans 'subshells' untill the last of them just a stupid crookish faily tale. i think i will stop here and see how do you get it and if you like it we can go on with it ----------- TIA Y.Porat --------------------- > yes i can draw > anyway any drawing will be a methaphorick pictures [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > Y.Porat > --------------------- Ey, can you put up a web site and explain everything there. Suppose, 1 in a million, you got it right. How can you credit the discovery to yourself. Winning a nobel prize can make you not work the entire life because 1 million dollars is given for each nobel prize winner. Also try to spend a few bucks on a good keyboard with working key for capital letter. Lawrence > > yes i can draw > > anyway any drawing will be a methaphorick pictures [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > Ey, can you put up a web site and explain everything > there. --------------------- i have a book had once a home made web site that was gone withsome organization changes of Netscape co. Suppose, 1 in a million, you got it right. it is not 1 in a million it is 90 of 100 !!! -------------------- How > can you credit the discovery to yourself. i am about 10 years on the net published many peaces of it no one can anymore steal it from me Winning a > nobel prize at this moment i an satisfied that two people of my counrtry go thr Nobel of chemistry the first time for the 'exact scinces' in the history of my young country (israel) thogh Jews in the worls go it much more than others compared to thier number (less than 15 millions) i have my pention and not hungry for bread. what realy matters for me - in that you are right is that all my work (more than 10 years) will not get lost. can make you not work the entire life > because 1 million dollars is given for each nobel > prize winner. see above now if you say it cinically than go climb on another tree. > Also try to spend a few bucks on a good keyboard > with working key for capital letter. ----------- i am not a genuine English speaker and a lost case of a lazy man.... too lazy to write Capital Letters. hardly looks back to what i wrote!! if you what to callit arrogance welcome. may be because in Hebrew there is nothing like Capital leters though the Bible (a creation that took more than a thousand years to write it!! it does not include any capitalletters everyone understands it perfectly without having CAPITAL LETTERS. ----------- now if you are serious and sinseer and not infuenced by instigators or any of my personal enemies (and there are!) you can get my book FREE you see i dont mind too much the buckes though each copy cost me say 50 $ even than you will have to sweat a little and have a lot of dialogue with me and not least- an open mind b realise how stuck in the mudd are your 'modern theories with which you will not go much further away for the rest of your life the most you will do with it (as many of the fuckes here - excuse the term but there is nothing better for them - not all of them!!) will turn you to some minor tutur than earns a few bucks a mounth and then no one will ever remember that there was once someone like you. all the best Y.Porat ----------------- > Lawrence > Winning a > > nobel prize [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (less than 15 millions) > i have my pention and not hungry for bread. You mean you are living in Israel right now? What's the new weapons being developed there right now? Last time I heard they were building advanced particle beam weapons. How is it doing now? How portable is it now... can it be carry by one man (backpack based). Have you seen a nuke? I heard Israel has tons of it. Maybe you can share something about it (like how to build one). I'm sure some muslim dudes would like to hear it. Lawrence ?????????? whats that got to do with our energy levels discussion 1 i know nothing about what you seems to know about my country. i am completely out of that just an ordinary citizen that seems to know about it less than you 2 your alegations are illogic you consider my counrt as a terrorist criminal country the rumours are that even during the most dangerous situations during our wars we never dared to think of using nuc weapon 3 i even dont make any effort to know about it i leave it to the leaders 4 you should know that even my counrty is a free country 'Big brother' ie the US is in close control on us! we do nothing without consulting Big brother' actually big brother will never alow us to do such things. 5 you sound hostile!! am i right ?? 6 how about our previous discussion. ie just forget politics and stick to scince?? how about that ?? anyway that is my intention. 7 scince is 'dirthy enough we dont need to go even to the more dirthy field --- ie politics. -------------- TIA Y.Porat --------------- You sure you are not an Israeli spy? I heard that all Israeli citizens are battle ready and some can even operate nukes. I also heard that Israel is a country with the most advanced weapons development program in the world because of constant threat of war. It is reported that Israel has acquired the Bearden Scalar based weaponry. They can create programmable scalar and em based self-referencing "sentinels" that can move along power lines and visit any homes it choses and acquire information thru this scalar coupling. This is why when you said you are an Israeli, I got a deep fear because you may be one that they use to deliver the homing signals thru the small letter words you kept using which they can lock in the homes of the participants. How can you deny this? About your nucleus as not sphere and rectangle based. I wonder if this is another locking system for the scalar based weaponry. Come on. You expect us to believe the nucleus is rectangle in shape. Why not put it in web site unless this is just a locking system for the Israeli advanced weapon system. Lawrence > ?????????? > whats that got to do with our energy levels discussion > > 1 i know nothing about what you seems to know about my country. > i am completely out of that just an ordinary citizen > that seems to know about it less than you > 2 your alegations are illogic > you consider my counrt as a terrorist criminal country [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Y.Porat > --------------- > You sure you are not an Israeli spy? ---------------------- 1 i asked you not to drag me to politics right?? anyway there are some nonsense that you let than demand some response. Israeli spy??? spy what ??? does a real spy is needed to spy the internet??? do you thing a bit befor you write?? are you sure you are compelely sober??? (:-) I heard that all > Israeli citizens are battle ready and some can > even operate nukes. i tols you ( it is right that Israel is many times in dangwer of imediate destruction it was like that at the 1997 war tghe width of this country at its narowest side is 10 miles !!! do you get that ??? probably much less than the city in which you live with the difference of 100 millios hating nabours which ther standards of behaviour... just see how the aere heading your western citizens while falling into their hands. and inspigh tof that situation in 1997 and you claim that we hanve nucs. it was not used!! actually if you think about it is sort of suecide to this counrty because sooner or later *there will be a similar revange from the other side and a country of wich its area is less than your City- it is suecide to use and be the first one to use nucs. so whay are all your nonsesne you shold know that out fist survival interst is ....PEACE. did you got it?? and thas exactly our guiding survival principle and thats how we actually behave. Mr abuser) I also heard that Israel is > a country with the most advanced weapons > development program in the world because of > constant threat of war. does notmake semse if you thinkl about oue limites resouses and the close watch of the US. It is reported that Israel > has acquired the Bearden Scalar based weaponry. > They can create programmable scalar and em based > self-referencing "sentinels" that can move along > power lines and visit any homes it choses and > acquire information thru this scalar coupling. This > is why when you said you are an Israeli, ----- i also have a private line to God as well!! ----------- I got > a deep fear because you may be one that they use > to deliver the homing signals thru the small letter > words you kept using which they can lock in the > homes of the participants. How can you deny this? ------------- ok now i got you and your cinicism --------------- > About your nucleus as not sphere and rectangle based. > I wonder if this is another locking system for the > scalar based weaponry. Come on. You expect us to > believe the nucleus is rectangle in shape. Why > not put it in web site unless this is just a locking > system for the Israeli advanced weapon system. -------------- i tols you you can get my book free and you can see the logis sequence how it is developed ans subsranciated sytematically. but since you talk ed so much you will not get it untill i make sure *you are not a hostile country spy* !!! go it ??? ------------- all the best Y.porat ps hoiw about my claimes that there is no 6 shells and asubshells in the Lead Atom can you refute me ?? (big talker???) -------------- all the best Y.Porat another ps just give me a beak with politics. --------------------- > some shoking news for you > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Y.Porat > ---------------- Hey Y It occurs to me that we describe the same structure from different viewpoints. You are riding with it. I am viewing it from afar. Yes the electron stems from the nucleus. No, it does not rotate around it, it is part of it; actually it is the inside of the black hole, which is being constantly extruded as charged materiel, while falling back when discharged. Like a fountain. The black hole for each electron as well as the electrons are all located on a disc because when they rotate they must create a magnetic field and all these fields will dictate that they co-rotate (all rotate in same plane-as a disc). But the whole disc has rotation as well as precession, so the nucleus stays stationary wrt *all* the electrons all the time. John Research-------> http://www.physlink.com/Index.cfm > About a hundred years ago when the Rutherbord atom was > accepted. People couldn't figure out how the electron [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > states and highre states? Why is it there? What > principles can create them? Again, you're asking classical questions about quantum mechanics. If you look at the quantum mechanical solution for a harmonic oscillator (a particle near the bottom of any smooth well), you'll see that the lowest possible energy is NOT zero. You ask, why? I tell you, we don't know why, we just know that it is, and it's confirmed by experiment. The reason why the hydrogen orbitals are separated is because energy is quantized in steps of hbar. There IS no allowable energy in between. Period. Why? No one knows. But it's the case. Here's how to "map the atom". Find the lowest energy of projectile you need to eject an electron from the atom in any particular state. The lowest energy is determined by the leftover kinetic energy of the ejected electron, and extrapolating that to zero leftover kinetic energy. You will find that said "ionization energy" has discrete values. There are indeed discrete energy levels. Of course, just about all of chemistry uses the fact of discrete energy levels, and quite successfully. So any theory that replaces quantum mechanics would have to not only reproduce basic results like the Bohr conjecture, but all of chemistry as well. What bothers you about this? > Lastly. How are the electrons of the atom relates to > the nucleus's "positive charge" while being "shielded" > by all the lower negative energy levels?? First of all, if you're talking about hydrogen, energy levels don't shield the proton from the electron. If you're talking about other atoms with multiple electrons, there IS a shielding effect. Read a basic chemistry text, somewhere around chapters 3 and 7. PD fucken crook can you calculate the 'shielding effect of the Lead Atom?? no fucken book of yours will do it so why are you cheating and sending people to those books while there is no answer for that sheilding!1 do you know croock why there is no sheilding? because yoy can never bring experimantal evidence that trhe Lead atom (just an example of a heave atom) so ther is no whasoever evidence that it has so many shells and subshels as crooks like you teach poor people and bogling thisr minds go it crook?? you will nver find coconuts in the north pole .... because there arnt there exactly as there are not all those shells ans subshells in the Lead atom go it crook and just remember who was the first one to stuff it to your crookish mind, all the best Y.Porat --------------------- > About a hundred years ago when the Rutherbord atom was > accepted. People couldn't figure out how the electron [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > actually mapped the atom and confirmed that there are > indeed energy levels where electrons can jump. A spectrum does map the possible energies of electrons in an atom. You can't tell exactly where the electron is when it is in an energy level; if you knew exactly where the electron is, you couldn't know its energy precisely. > According to physics, the lowest state is the ground > state. What create, support or stabilize the ground > states and highre states? Why is it there? What > principles can create them? Quantum mechanics is a probabilistic theory, by which I mean that it states that certain things are inherently unpredictable. In particular, if a particle is confined in a small space, its momentum, which will influence where it goes next, is highly unpredictable. This means that an electron cannot be held inside the nucleus by the electrostatic force, because the unpredictable momentum would knock it out again. If you're asking why the electron can only have certain energies, I can't think of a simple answer to the question. You may need to read some actual textbooks if you want to understand it. If so, here are some good recommendations: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/books.html > Lastly. How are the electrons of the atom relates to > the nucleus's "positive charge" while being "shielded" > by all the lower negative energy levels?? I'm not sure what you're asking here. > About a hundred years ago when the Rutherbord atom was > accepted. Good sentence. Very liberated and celebratory of diversity. > People couldn't figure out how the electron > move around the nucleus. They reasoned it couldn't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > actually mapped the atom and confirmed that there are > indeed energy levels where electrons can jump. Spectra. > According to physics, the lowest state is the ground > state. What create, support or stabilize the ground > states and highre states? Why is it there? What > principles can create them? Quantum mechanics. Conservation of angular momentum. Selection rules. > Lastly. How are the electrons of the atom relates to > the nucleus's "positive charge" while being "shielded" > by all the lower negative energy levels?? "Slater determinants" 14,000 hits <http://csm.jmu.edu/chemistry/courses/chem200/tutorials/slater/> Phys. Rev. 76 1592 (1949)  SignatureUncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf |
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