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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Particle Physics / September 2005



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Electron is not a point particle mathematically

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FrediFizzx - 15 Jul 2005 19:17 GMT
[reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread]

"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <bjoern.feuerbacher@pci.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in
message news:db7qib$j6d$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...
| FrediFizzx wrote:
| > "Bjoern Feuerbacher" <bjoern.feuerbacher@pci.uni-heidelberg.de>
wrote in
| > message news:db583r$pg7$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...
| > | FrediFizzx wrote:
| > |
| > | [snip]
| > |
| > | > Here is my take on some of Tom's ideas which I have studied
| > extensively
| > | > in the past.
| > | >
| > | > He does successfully predict the mass of the proton and neutron
| > though I
| > | > have not exactly been able to figure out why and how it could
| > possibly
| > | > match the SM.  But every year I get a little bit closer.  He
also
| > does
| > | > very well with nuclear binding energies using adjusted magnetic
| > moments
| > | > for the proton and neutron.  So there *is* something very
uncanny
| > about
| > | > his concepts.
| > |
| > | Didn't you notice that he is merely able to do that by *putting
the
| > | already known values* *into* his calculation at the start and
merely
| > | pulling them out again with some sleights of the hand?
| >
| > Which known values?  I think he only starts with the rest mass of
the
| > electron and gets the proton and neutron masses using that and
geometry.

| I haven't seen much of his book so far. But e.g. when he claims to
| calculate the binding energy of the deuteron and the magnetic moments
| of the proton and the neutron, he puts these values into his
| calculation right from the start. Same for the mass, charge and
| magnetic moment of the electron.

No.  He doesn't do that.  You really need to study his books.  Most of
the values he derives starting with his model of energy (really two
photons) and geometric principles.  I think you could backtrack all of
his values to the input parameter of two photons with energy equal to
2*m_e*c^2.  So starting with the rest mass enegy of electrons and
positrons and using geometrical configurations, he derives all the rest.
Except for the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron.  He makes an
adjustment for that also.

But the big thing that really gets me curious, is how he gets a massive
amount of nuclear binding energies very close using magnetic coupling of
nucleons and using his derived mag moments of the proton and neutron
from his models.  IOW, he is getting the proper photon energies for
binding using,

e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))

Where mu_p and mu_n are *his* derived values for the magnetic moments of
the proton and neutron.  Let's convert this to cgs units and make some
substitutions.

alpha*hbar*c(e*c)/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))

alpha*e*c/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n)) = 1/(photon wavelength)

So this expression does give us the proper photon wavelength of the
binding energy using his values of mu_p and mu_n as input.  Now, how is
this connected to nuclear physics?  There has to be a connection
somehow.  Using his geometrical scheme, he just gets too much correct.
Way too much!!

| > | > He is trying to make one photon out of two photons.
| > |
| > | I did not notice that so far. Where does he do that?
| >
| > Out of his "model" for energy (his single photon) he creates an
electron
| > and positron.  We know that takes at least two photons.
|
| Oh, yes, I remember telling this him before... ;-)
|
| > | > Two photons and his concept somewhat works OK.
| > | >
| > | > What he takes to be an electron neutrino, I take to be a
Goldstone
| > | > boson.  Funny how those Goldstone bosons popup even in the SM.
| > |
| > | A neutrino has spin 1/2, so how can you take it to be a boson?
| >
| > What Tom is calling a neutrino in his model has zero spin in his
model.
| > It must be a boson.
|
| Neutrinos have zero spin in his model? Wow. How does he explain
| conservation
| of angular momentum in beta decay? He doesn't bother, right? (after
| all, he thinks that angular momentum and linear momentum are
| convertible into each other...)

Yes.  I do think the neutrino part of his concept is seriously flawed.

| > | > So that leaves two of his vector particles
| > |
| > | Were you able to figure out what he means with "vector"?
| >
| > Loosely.  He is basically connecting up orthogonal vectors of equal
| > length.
|
| And what has that to do with constructing models of composite
particles?

Did you snip out the part that leads to that?

FrediFizzx
particle p6 - 15 Jul 2005 21:01 GMT
> [reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread]
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> somehow.  Using his geometrical scheme, he just gets too much correct.
> Way too much!!

Really? Gee maybe I have to read the entire book after all.
I hope someone with good knowledge in classical electrodynamics
can help analyze his "geometric scheme". In the following is
chapter 1 and 2 which gives complete details of how the EM
vector can be allegedly made into geometric cubes that form
particles. I start with chapter 2 which details the cube
construction. Chapter 1 details how the properties such as spin,
rest mass, charges are made from the geometric confinement.
(To Lockyer, don't worry I won't post other chapters. Just this
crucial first two for our scrutiny)

Lockyer wrote:

Chapter 2

THE NATURE OF LEPTONS
THE SHAPE OF PARTICLE MODELS

To preserve the orthogonal arrangement that exists between the
(E) and (H) photon field vectors, the particle models are
constructed in the form of vector cube frameworks. This form
factor is admirably suited to scaling of nested cubes, and
forming the composite proton, neutron, pion and muon models.
Setting vector lengths equal to wavelengths allows the cube
particle geometry to show that subatomic particles spin at
(1/2 h bar) with charge e.

RULES FOR CONSTRUCTING BASIC PARTICLES

Figure 1.2
http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/PHOTONmodel.gif

showed that the wavelength rate of vector growth will
change from zero to the e and back twice each cycle. The calculus
of related rates can be used to show that absolutely perfect cube
structures form, as the length rate of each member changes at
exactly 'c'. Equation (2.1) calculus demonstrates that the cube
face perimeter ceases to change, when side rates of length change
are all (simultaneously) equal.

Perimeter P = 2(x + y) : dP/dt= 2 [dx/dt + dy/dt]

setting dP/dt = 0  then dx/dt = - dy/dt

In Equation (2.1) the perimeter will stablize when (x)(S)
Poynting vectors and attached (v) (E) electric or (H) magnetic
vectors are exactly the same length at exactly the velocity of
light. Visualize the (E), (H) and (S) rate of change going from
(and to) the peak 1.414 c value, so they will instantaneously and
simultaneously have exactly the same wavelength when the time
rate of both is exactly the rms velocity of "c". At the resulting
precise pair energy the vecto rs connect, one to the other,
forming int o the cube structures. By assuring vector directions
going into and out of each (S) vector edge, only the three known
lepton pairs can form. This immediately establishes a boundary
condition on the number of basic leptons possible, and the
particle models are naturally self-limiting. The resulting
electron and neutrino structures are shown in Figure 2.1.

http://www.pbase.com/image/46224915/original    Figure 2.1

Anticipating later results, the Figure 2.1 models are labeled as
the leptons they mimic. The electron and positron have a
structure that adds the momentum of the photons in their front
and back cube faces, as the mechanism for particle spin. In
Chapter 1. Equation (1.5), it was shown that particle mass
(energy) is exactly equal to the energy stored in the spill
angular momentum. The electron and positron models immediately
have acquired mass by virtue of their spin. The anti-particle
conjugation is revealed as having an (E) where the mate has an
(H) and the reverse. In Figure 2.1, the model labeled "Electron
Type Neutrino" does not show a conjugate. The electron type
neutrino is its on anti-particle, by a space rotation of 180
degrees about any axis. Electron type neutrinos, being their own
anti-particle, have profound effect when we construct the
composite proton and neutron model. The muon type neutrino shows
an anti-particle. Pair production is modeled as a breaking apart
of a photo n fireball, and annihila tion as recombining of
vectors, back into the photons.

It should be noted here, that these models were given
automatically by the modeling process, not invented. The models
are ALL constructed (blindl)) by simply combining the energy
model in all possible ways. In fact, any average student could
show the structure of the electron, positron, electron type
neutrino, and muon type neutrino pair, by simply combining the
energy model in all possible ways. This is the way particles must
be 9 created in nature, automatically and precisely. In Chapter I
the balancing of forces for pair production of the electron and
positron were given ill Equations (1.1), (1.2) and (1.3). This is
now shown schematically in Figure 2.3

http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/pairsep.gif         Figure 2.3

The pair production is possible because the strength of the near
field opposing magnetic moments exceeds that of the enormous
electric attraction. Forces balance at the null distance shown
and calculated in Equation (1.3).

Neutrino pairs have never been seen to annihilate. The
theoretical reason in these models, is that neutrinos do not
move, when energy is applied. Neutrinos' unique structures are
postulated to force them to get smaller, rather than move, when
energy is applied, and this provides for the scaling of the
nested cubes, forming the composite proton, neutron, moon and
pion.

In the next chapter, the two types of neutrino characteristics
will be discussed in detail.

CHAPTER 1
THE NATURE OF ENERGY

SETTING THE STAGE

Particle are photo produced in pairs, from electromagnetic
energy (photons). For example, the creation of the electron
positron pair is the product of photon energy, in the presence
of matter. The matter serves to turn the photons back into a
fireball and to reduce the energy to the exact energy required
for electron-positron creation. Fig 1.1 dramatically shows a
typical cloud chamber record of the photo production of the
electron-positron pairs.

http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/photopair.gif   Figure 1.1

In Figure 1.1 three
electron-positron pairs were created by 330MeV energy (x-ray)
photons in the presence of a lead (matter) target. The target
lead plate serves to Compton scatter the x-ray photons, reducing
fireball energy to the required (1.0121998 Mev) electron pair
energy to form each of the pairs. An external magnetic field
serves to separate and measure the pair characteristics. It
can be shown that the pairs form, at their exact and exclusive
energy, on account of the balance between non linear electric
and magnetic forces, each that vary at different rates.

BALANCING FORCES FOR PAIR PRODUCTION

A newly created electron and
positron will have an enormous electrostatic attraction due to
the formation of their negative and positive charges. The pair
develops their positive and negative attractive charges as they
spin up in the same direction. By spinning in the same direction,
the (negative) electron and (positive) positron, develop internal
charge currents. that create magnetic moments that oppose. In the
near field, the opposing magnetic force (Ue-, Ue+ ) varies
inversely as the fourth power of the separation, and thus is
larger than the attracting electric (e-,,e+) force, which only
varies inversely as the square of the same separation distance
(m), Equations (I.1) and (1.2).

(Eo is permittivity, Uo is permeability of vacuum)

Fe = [e^2/4piEo(m^2)]  Electric force, Newton (1.1)

Fu = [2UoUe-(Ue+]/2pi(m^4) Magnetic force, Newton  (1.2)

In Equation (1.3) we combine (Fe) (Fu) and solve for a common
separation distance (m) where electric and magnetic forces
will be equal (null). The result is a separation distance (m).

m = Sqrt [4UoEoUe-Ue+/e^2]
m = 3.86607074 x 10^-13

Equations (El), (1.2) and (1.3) demonstrate that it is possible
for the (e-,e+) pairs to form and then separate, by magnetic
moments ( Ue-,Ue+ ) despite the enormous (e- ,e+) electric charge
attractions. Were it not so, matter, as we know it. could not
exist.

THE ENERGY MODEL

As demonstrated in Figure 1.1, (photon fireballs) with an energy
twice the electron's rest mass energy, (1.021998 MeV) can create
the electron-positron pair. It will now be shown that the
electron's rest mass energy is entirely the energy stored (Joule
seconds) in the spin angular momentum and that the angular
momentum conserves that photon's linear momentum exactly.
Equations (I.4), (1.5) and (1.6)

spin = h/4pi = J(sec)/4pi = Rm(me)c            (1.4)

Where: Rm = mass radius [wavelengthc/4pi]
    me = electron mass
    c = velocity of light
    sec = total time (wavelength@e/c)

: J(wavelengthe)/4pi(c) = me(c)wavelength@e/4pi

finally J = me(c^2)                  (1.5)

Energy of photon. Jp = h fe = hc / wavelength@e

Momentum of photon = P = Jp/c

Then P Rm = h wavelength@e / wavelength@e 4 pi = h /4 pi  check (1.6)

Equation (1.4) gives the source of the quantized (h /47r) spin
angular momentum as simply the mass (Me,) times the radius of
gyration (wavelength/4pi) times a velocity of gyration (c). Using
the electron's mass and the velocity of light gives us a mass
radius equal to one half of the electron's rationalized Compton
wavelength or (wavelength/4pi). This value will also be obtained
and verified from the electron model. See Chapter 4.   In
Equation (1.5) the algebra shows that the entire rest mass energy
is stored in the spin angular momentum. Equation (I.6) shows that
the linear momentum, of the photon energy that created the
electrons, is conserved in the resulting spin angular momentum.
Figure 1.2. shows the model for the photon derived from a
schematic for a traveling wave of electromagnetic energy, as a
dynamic Poynting vector representing wavelength, not amplitude.

http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/PHOTONmodel.gif    Figure 1.2

The waveform is a sinusoid, and undulates, from peak wavelength
to zero twice each cycle, but must conserve energy over all time.
This is accomplished by an exchange of energy, in the
relativistic frame, between the two conjugate electromagnetic
resonances. In free space. the ratio between electric field
strength (E = volt per meter) and magnetic field strength (H=
Ampere per meter) is equal to the impedance of the vacuum (Zo),
Equation (1.7).

E = V/m ; H = A/m; Zo = Sqrt (Uo/Eo) = E/H = kg.m.s^-3.A^-1/A.m^-1

Zo = 376.7303135.kg.m^2.s^-3.A^-2 (Ohm)

There is a resonant exchange of energy that dithers between the
permeability (Henry per meter) (Uo) and the permittivity (Farad
per meter) (Eo) of the vacuum, in the same fashion as a (LC)
resonant circuit. Referring to Figure 1.2, the action perfectly
conserves the energy (straight lines the quantity) by shifting
the energy from the lateral to axial, and back again as the
photon travels, inch worm style at the rms velocity of light. The
energy is conserved by the well-known trigonometric identity
sin^2 theta + cos^2 theta = 1), which, for the two conjugate
resonances of Figure 1 ,2. becomes Equation (I.8).

VPP = 0.5 [sin^2 theta E.H) = (cos^2 theta H.E)]

Notice that the energy loss by the lateral (sine) is gain by the
axial (cosine) and the reverse. This well-known action, by a
resonant circuit, conserves the energy (over all time). The
energy maintains a constant value, regardless of the angle (0) by
an electric to magnetic and magnetic to electric energy exchange.
The motion of the photon is (thus) discontinuous as the energy
cycles between lateral top dead center and the axial development,
so that the velocity of light is a rms (root mean square) value
from zero to -T2. c . The photon energy model (Figure 1.2) forms
the basis for Quantum Vector Particle Physics (QVPP). This will
have profound effect when we construct leptons directly, from the
photon energy model, in the next chapter.
FrediFizzx - 15 Jul 2005 21:42 GMT
| > [reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread]
| >
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
| I hope someone with good knowledge in classical electrodynamics
| can help analyze his "geometric scheme".

The geometric scheme I was referring to above is for combining of the
nucleons.

| In the following is
| chapter 1 and 2 which gives complete details of how the EM
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| (To Lockyer, don't worry I won't post other chapters. Just this
| crucial first two for our scrutiny)

This probably has to do with the electrodynamical configuration of the
quantum "vacuum", IMHO.  Plus rotate a cube and it defines a cylinder.

FrediFizzx
Michael Moroney - 15 Jul 2005 22:31 GMT
>[reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread]

I had the same problem.  I'll repeat what I just posted below:

>"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <bjoern.feuerbacher@pci.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in
>message news:db7qib$j6d$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...
>| FrediFizzx wrote:

>| I haven't seen much of his book so far. But e.g. when he claims to
>| calculate the binding energy of the deuteron and the magnetic moments
>| of the proton and the neutron, he puts these values into his
>| calculation right from the start. Same for the mass, charge and
>| magnetic moment of the electron.

>No.  He doesn't do that.

Yes he does:  Here is a repost of something I just tried to post.

===========================================================================

>| You have to dig deeper, namely where he derives the two constants he
>| calls "undamped magnetic moments of the proton and neutron".  In one
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>his
>| usual x=x proofs, but still an x=x proof nonetheless.

>You are wrong Mike.  I have dug very very deep into this.

Not deep enough.

Thanks, you made me have to hunt down that other .gif of his where
Tom introduces the deuteron binding energy into the equations to derive
the "undamped magnetic moment" variables, from which he pulls out the
deuteron binding energy.  I found it, it is:

http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/PNSTRONG.gif .  Look in the VARIABLES LIST
and you'll see him introduce it to define "C", a term of some quadradic.
He doesn't even try to hide it; in fact he writes in bold type "We use the
known binding [energy?] of the deuteron and quadradic to find Upm and Unm
undamped mag moments".

Then he defines C as e^4/(64*pi^2*E0^3*U0*(2.224573E6)^2).  The
2.224573E6 term is the deuteron's binding energy in electron volts.
(I'll ignore the incorrect units here)

Then he goes off and creates a quadradic with this C as a term (but he
flubs some signs) and solves it to get these Upm and Unm values.
Now remember the identity I told you about in my last post?  Multiply
the two roots of a quadradic equation and you get C/A.  The way he flubs
the sign it's best to consider the unmentioned A term as -1 because of how
he writes the term under the square root sign when defining Upm and Unm.
This term should be B^2-4*A*C.  He writes B^2+4*C.  Again because how
he writes the quadradic terms he winds up flipping the sign of Upm but
the sign of Unm is correct.  (remember the denominator is 2*A)

C/A = -C but because he flipped the sign of Upm, the flip and minus cancel
out and thus Upm*Unm = C. So whereever you see the roots Upm and Unm
multiplied together you can replace them by C, or his definition of C
above, which includes the deuteron's binding energy!  Now look at
http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/pnbind.gif and in the equation where he
solves for Bpn, replace the (Up*Un) term with C, or the e^4/(64*pi^2....)
definition of C.  Voila! lots of terms cancel and we get Bpn =
e^2/sqrt(e^4/(2.224573E6)^2) or e^2/(e^2/(2.224573E6)) or ta-da! the
2.224573E6 he introduced at the start. Notice that had he started with 1,
pi, e, googol or whatever instead of 2.224573E6 he would have pulled out
that very same number instead.

Classic x=x proof.  Much more sophisticated than most of his others.
I'm surprised you didn't catch it.
FrediFizzx - 16 Jul 2005 00:12 GMT
| >[reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread]
|
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
|
| Yes he does:  Here is a repost of something I just tried to post.

========================================================================
===

| >| You have to dig deeper, namely where he derives the two constants he
| >| calls "undamped magnetic moments of the proton and neutron".  In one
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
| pi, e, googol or whatever instead of 2.224573E6 he would have pulled out
| that very same number instead.

OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net
presentation.  I believe originally he derived the "adjusted" value of
the proton's mag moment from his proton model and used this procedure to
get the neutron's "adjusted" mag moment.  It turns out that it also
gives the same value for the "adjusted" proton mag moment as he
originally derived a different way.

But this is really besides the main point here.  The fact that he gets
very good values on *many many* nuclear binding energies besides just
the deuteron using,

e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))

and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion.  Nuclear
coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I believe.  So how can
he get good binding energy values using *magnetic coupling*.  Somehow
this magnetic coupling formula must be a result of pion exchange.  ???

FrediFizzx
Y.Porat - 16 Jul 2005 06:13 GMT
  >
> OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
> see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))

------------

what is the heaviest Nuc and Atom that he decoded???!!!

> and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion.

yess the geometric structure is a main issue
yet
how can you know about the geometric structure while the dimensions
of the nuc are so small??- is is in contradiction to the HUP!!!!!

----------

Nuclear
> coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I believe.

believed ???
i believe that is is done by witches on broomstiks
----------

 So how can
> he get good binding energy values using *magnetic coupling*.  Somehow
> this magnetic coupling formula must be a result of pion exchange.  ???
>
> FrediFizzx

ATB
Y.Porat
------------------
FrediFizzx - 16 Jul 2005 20:01 GMT
|    >
| > OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
|
| what is the heaviest Nuc and Atom that he decoded???!!!

I believe he has done most main nuclei up to and including the Sulfur 32
nucleus.  Tom's prediction is ~= 272.07 MeV and the measured BE is ~=
271.78 MeV for Sulfur 32 according to his book.

| > and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion.
|
| yess the geometric structure is a main issue
| yet
| how can you know about the geometric structure while the dimensions
| of the nuc are so small??- is is in contradiction to the HUP!!!!!

No, not necessarily contradicts HUP.  If the right answers are obtained,
this *can* be a clue that the proposed geometry has something to it.
There will certainly be an uncertainty associated with the measured
energy values.  IOW, the measured value of Sulfur 32's BE will have a
range of uncertainy specified along with it.  Tom does not quote that
and he probably should.  Plus I didn't notice a reference as to where he
obtained his measured BE's from unless it is from Audi and Wapstra.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Y.Porat - 17 Jul 2005 05:17 GMT
> |    >
> | > | > But this is really besides the main point here.  The fact that he
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> nucleus.  Tom's prediction is ~= 272.07 MeV and the measured BE is ~=
> 271.78 MeV for Sulfur 32 according to his book.
------------
Hi Fred
it seems tha the places that i start to come back from
and forget abouthtthem---
*you havent even been there*'
ie you dont even understand what i say!!

just have a short look in my site
and see how far i was doing:

Ton is computiong th e * overall  binding of ther nuc*
while what i did not untill Sulphore but
all along the periodic table!!-- not the all together sum of it
but ecplicit detailes of any bit and peace of it
*in any corber of the nuc*
do you get it??
it seems that it is far beyond even your dreams !!

it is methaphorically the difference between saying:
tis biliding is 100 tall and weight  2000 tons and ......
and describing the building in detaile
each srory each appartment
and each wall to the last of them
morover
th ebinding energy not of the whole summ
but of any story to the next one
the binding ebergy of any wall to the next wall

do you start to understand the historic difference??

if not just have a look at my  amatour builder of  sites
not of nuclear structure.....:

------

> | > and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion.
> |
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> and he probably should.  Plus I didn't notice a reference as to where he
> obtained his measured BE's from unless it is from Audi and Wapstra.
------------
i was 'pulling a legg' about that HUP preventing geometric knowlwdge!!

ie acting the innocent question
actually see my thred:
'does the HUP prevent us fromknowing geometric properties of the nuc'
not too long ago
i did it to refute the genious from Hedelberg
that claimed that my model is dead by arival just because of the HUP./
i whanted other people to realise that this man is a fool.
and a crook
so now you agree with me
that the HUP does not prevent us from knowin geometric
properties of the nuc.
because you can bypass it and know properties of it
even without noting exact distances etc !!!
there is a lot to learn and make use of even by knowing it
partially
not tomention again that indirect knowlwdge and even simple logic
can tell us more
and i brough the example of the Deutron
in which we can know that the proton there is located next to the
Neutron, consiquently you get some longish structure of the Deutron!!

*it is very important to realise it because scince will be
unjustified  paralised!!
(on that important issue
no one will work on it if 'knowong what Feuerbacher is 'teaching'

ATB
Y.Porat
--------------

> FrediFizzx
>
> http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
> or postscript
> http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
p6 - 16 Jul 2005 22:03 GMT
> > OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
> > see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Y.Porat
> ------------------

Y.Porat.. in more than a decade stay at sci.physics. What
have you learnt. What physics textbooks have you finished?
I think you don't even know what is the HUP and its details
as taught in convensional physics. I suggest you first get
familiar with the ins and outs of the convensional concepts
before going to examine far out thing. Start with thermodynamics,
electrodynamics, classical mechanics, then slowly get into QM,
etc. Without doing this. It would be a waste of too much time
on yourselves and others examining other models when you are
not even thoroughly familiar with the concept as taught. That's
why I decided to focus on thermodynamics and electrodynamics
first before going to QM and relativistic quantum field
theory. Try to do what I said so that in the next 10 years,
you could do something fruitful and not just waste time
chasing after wild goose. In 5-10 years. I don't want to
be like you or other crankpots trapped in their own
delusions. That's why I'd spend the next few months mastering
convensional concepts and especially the mathemetics. That's
the logical option if you want to arrive at the truth.
Also I think no crackpots can help me understand the physics
of qi. I have to explore and derive the physics of it myself.

So long.

P6
Sam Wormley - 16 Jul 2005 23:36 GMT
>>>OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
>>>see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> P6

  Another killfile entry!
Y.Porat - 17 Jul 2005 05:31 GMT
yu are on the right way
to be another
PARROT!!

first of all your asumption that i know nothing about the above is
wrong!!

2 it is only after knowing some of it that i realised how existing
scince is in a dead end
and to waht extent it i sa ctually became more like a 'religioon'
ie too much involved in *synergetic* [rocess of unsupotted claimes and
paradigma.
now i promis yopu that once you will folow exatly the conventional root
you are syrely falling to the trapp tha tthere is no way out of it
sort of a :
approaching to close to black hole !! (;-)

3 you must realise that amthematics *canot and should not be * the
leader of scince!!
it must be first  of all and above all the  - physics logic
and you bett that i shave quit a lot of it!!

not only by being an outsider but knowing 'a bit from inside' and a bit
from ouside!!
anyway
the chice is yourse
yet do not say later that i was not warning you about the trapp of the
existing scince!!
may be anothe alterbnative:
do waht you suggest to do       but ...
always keep in mind what the 'old crackpot'   Porat told you !!

ATB
Y.Porat
--------------------------
Michael Moroney - 17 Jul 2005 03:42 GMT
>OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
>see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>gives the same value for the "adjusted" proton mag moment as he
>originally derived a different way.

Betcha he slips the deuteron's binding energy in there somewhere. Oh
something else I should check.  He mistakenly inputs the deuteron's BE
with dimensionality volts rather than the proper joules, as usual.  If we
change it so the BE is in proper units, what units will those "adjusted"
magnetic moments have?

>But this is really besides the main point here.  The fact that he gets
>very good values on *many many* nuclear binding energies besides just
>the deuteron using,

>e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))

That constant is just the deuteron binding energy he input at the start!

>and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion.  Nuclear
>coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I believe.  So how can
>he get good binding energy values using *magnetic coupling*.  Somehow
>this magnetic coupling formula must be a result of pion exchange.  ???

I haven't looked how he derives the binding energy for anything beyond
the deuteron; once I saw this was bogus I figured there was no need.
I don't know how much he made available on the web anyway.

However, if we ignore the bogus deuteron proof and consider all the others
as being based on the deuteron's binding energy (an input), that *might*
be interesting.  As long as he doesn't sneak their binding energies in
there.  It would be a series of ratios of binding energies to the
deuteron's BE.  However, Tom dismisses the SM's prediction of particle
masses as ratios as worthless, perhaps he can dismiss his own predictions
as worthless ratios. :-)
Paul Stowe - 17 Jul 2005 04:20 GMT
>> OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
>>see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Betcha he slips the deuteron's binding energy in there somewhere.

Fine, back it up, show us all!  I don't know about others, but I
get pretty damn sick & tried of cynics that spout off without the
balls to sustantiate their claims!  The devil is in the details.

> Oh something else I should check.

Yes, you should.

> He mistakenly inputs the deuteron's BE with dimensionality volts rather
> than the proper joules, as usual.

Post the section that demonstrates that and then, SHOW WHERE!

> If we change it so the BE is in proper units, what units will those
> "adjusted" magnetic moments have?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>> e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))

Hmmm,

          [kg/sec]^3[m/sec]/(kg/m^3][kg-m^2/sec^2])
       => [kg^3-m/sec^4]/[kg^2/m-sec^2]
       => kg-m^2/sec^2

Yup, dimensionally correct for energy...  

> That constant is just the deuteron binding energy he input at
> the start!

Show it...  Show this 'start'.

>> and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion.
>> Nuclear coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> was no need.  I don't know how much he made available on the
> web anyway.

Did ya'ever think to ask???

> However, if we ignore the bogus deuteron proof and consider all
> the others as being based on the deuteron's binding energy (an
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the SM's prediction of particle masses as ratios as worthless,
> perhaps he can dismiss his own predictions as worthless ratios. :-)

And all arrogant cynics are alike :(

Paul Stowe
FrediFizzx - 17 Jul 2005 05:41 GMT
| >> OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I
| >>see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
|  get pretty damn sick & tried of cynics that spout off without the
|  balls to sustantiate their claims!  The devil is in the details.

Hey Paul, this has been going on for years now between Mike and Tom. ;-)
Probably close to 8 years now.  The solution would be for Mike to get
Tom's book but I think he even turned down a free one.  Well, there is
plenty of stuff in Tom's book that I don't agree with either (I have all
of his books (3) plus helped Tom with re-authoring his DVD to fit on one
disc instead of two) but there are a few close or correct predictions
that Tom does make that are very difficult to ignore.  One being nuclear
binding energies all the way from deuteron to Sulfur 32.  Even if he
does start with deuteron binding energy as a starter, it is still quite
an achievement.  But as you can see below, his deuteron BE is based on
slightly different values for proton and neutron magnetic moments that
he does in fact derive independantly.  Tom even found an experiment that
could be done to check the proton for the corrected mag moment values.
And it looks good to me.

Tom, if you are reading this, you need to try harder to get someone to
do that experiment.  Write a separate article just about it and present
it at an APS meeting, etc.  I would be happy to proof-read the article
for you before you present it.

| > Oh something else I should check.
|
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
|
|  Yup, dimensionally correct for energy...

It is even easier to see in the form,

(alpha*e*c)(hbar*c)/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))

(alpha*e*c)/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n)) = 1/(photon wavelength)

This produces the correct wavelength of the binding energy photon.

| > That constant is just the deuteron binding energy he input at
| > the start!
|
|  Show it...  Show this 'start'.

Since Mike doesn't have the book, he doesn't really know about the rest
of the equations that are based on the above expression in order to work
out the rest of the binding energies.  But as I have shown, the
expression above does tell a story.  And if we plugin the NMR obtained
magnetic moment values for the proton and neutron, the above expression
yeilds about 2.9 MeV for the binding energy of deuteron instead of the
~= 2.2 MeV obtained using the values that Tom derived via his proton
model.  So it only works using Tom's derived values of the "true" proton
and neutron magnetic moments.

Well of course, the big thing that has me mystyfied is that this works
at all using magnetic coupling for nucleons.  The nucleons are supposed
to be held together via the strong force (pion exchange) not EM magnetic
coupling!

| >> and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion.
| >> Nuclear coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|
|  Did ya'ever think to ask???

It's pretty involved for putting on the web, but Tom would probably do
better with this if he did a short PDF article explaining it better.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
tnlockyer@aol.com - 18 Jul 2005 18:09 GMT
> | On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:42:18 +0000 (UTC),
> moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com
[quoted text clipped - 114 lines]
> or postscript
> http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
tnlockyer@aol.com - 18 Jul 2005 18:17 GMT
For some reason Google just repeated your article before;  Try this:

FrediFizzx wrote:
> | On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:42:18 +0000 (UTC),
> moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> | >>gives the same value for the "adjusted" proton mag moment as he
> | >>originally derived a different way.

Mike said;
> | > Betcha he slips the deuteron's binding energy in there somewhere.

Paul said;
> |  Fine, back it up, show us all!  I don't know about others, but I
> |  get pretty damn sick & tried of cynics that spout off without the
> |  balls to sustantiate their claims!  The devil is in the details.

Fredi sez;
> Hey Paul, this has been going on for years now between Mike and Tom. ;-)
> Probably close to 8 years now.  The solution would be for Mike to get
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> could be done to check the proton for the corrected mag moment values.
> And it looks good to me.

> Tom, if you are reading this, you need to try harder to get someone to
> do that experiment.  Write a separate article just about it and present
> it at an APS meeting, etc.  I would be happy to proof-read the article
> for you before you present it.

Tom sez;
Just read this article today.  I don't like to use my computer in the
upstairs bedroom when the temp gets above 78, so only go online  in the
mornings.

Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists
chosen at random.

Image you were they, and you got something in the mail from a stranger.
You might glance at it, but as soon as you saw something you thought
was WRONG,  you might just file it, or, as Bjoern did,  throw it away.

I have presented articles to NATURE, SCIENCE etc. to no avail.   At my
age I don't feel like fighting windmills anymore.

>snip<
> | >> But this is really besides the main point here.  The fact that he
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> |
> |  Show it...  Show this 'start'.

Fredi sez;
> Since Mike doesn't have the book, he doesn't really know about the rest
> of the equations that are based on the above expression in order to work
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> model.  So it only works using Tom's derived values of the "true" proton
> and neutron magnetic moments.

> Well of course, the big thing that has me mystyfied is that this works
> at all using magnetic coupling for nucleons.  The nucleons are supposed
> to be held together via the strong force (pion exchange) not EM magnetic
> coupling!

Fredi, that old idea does not account for the creation of a photon that
exits the nucleous and removes the binding energy, for the mass defect,
so that old pion exchange theory is not the correct mechanism.

Creating a photon takes the confluence of BOTH electric and magnetic
forces, as QVPP demonstrates.    The conjunction of EM forces makes  it
is possible to create a photon and get the correct values for the
bindings between (p-p) (p-n) (n-n)  as amply demonstrated (for the
first time ever) by QVPP.

> | >> snip<<

Mike said;
> | > I haven't looked how he derives the binding energy for anything
> | > beyond the deuteron; once I saw this was bogus I figured there
> | > was no need.  I don't know how much he made available on the
> | > web anyway.

Paul said;
> |  Did ya'ever think to ask???

> It's pretty involved for putting on the web, but Tom would probably do
> better with this if he did a short PDF article explaining it better.

Yes, I am thinking of  doing that, but I  only have a knockoff software
that I have not tried to use.  My oldest daughter (Pat) has the whole
suite of  photo shop.

(BTW, Pat designed the cover and back cover of the new book.  All can
see a scan of it on Amazon.com,   inside of the 0963154664 book.)

Regards: Tom;

www.amazon.com    0963154664
tnlockyer@aol.com - 18 Jul 2005 18:34 GMT
Paul Stowe wrote:
> >Michael Moroney wrote:
> >> "FrediFizzx" <fredifi...@hotmail.com> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> >You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about
> >QVPP.

Paul Said;
>  Only if you can explain the forms used.  Where for example does the
>  factor [Sqrt(2)/2]^18 (which BTW is simply [1/Sqrt(2)]^2) come from?

Tom said;
Paul, good to hear from you.  Did I not give you a copy of VPP (1992)
book when we attended the same conference in the Gold Country?

Look in the Chapter 8 derivation of the proton magnetic moment, damping

correction etc.  The scaling that gets the core particle dimension is
shown in Chapter 7.

>  How do you get the MMA (0.001153) correction as geometric?  You have
>  defined lamba(e) and not shown basis.  In fact, one cannot determine
>  any validity of this derivation from what you've referenced.  If this
>  cannot be validated it cannot be used to validate anything else.
>  Foundation is critical.

That is based on the correction to tha starting positron's anomalous
magnetic moment.  See Chapter 1, page 4.

Regards, Tom;
www.amazon.com  0963154664
FrediFizzx - 19 Jul 2005 07:50 GMT
| For some reason Google just repeated your article before;  Try this:
|
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
| Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists
| chosen at random.

In the Hollywood music business, that is called "shotgunning".  It
rarely works.

| Image you were they, and you got something in the mail from a stranger.
|  You might glance at it, but as soon as you saw something you thought
| was WRONG,  you might just file it, or, as Bjoern did,  throw it away.

Most will throw it away unless you have something that really knocks
them out right away.

| I have presented articles to NATURE, SCIENCE etc. to no avail.   At my
| age I don't feel like fighting windmills anymore.

Maybe that should tell you that some adjustments are needed to your
models.  IMHO, what you think are neutrinos are not.  Massless spin zero
quantum objects can only be Goldstone bosons.  Your electron and
positron models are generic fermion models.  An electron is a quark that
has lost its color charge.  Or a quark is an electron that has gained
color charge.  Now how could that be?  Maybe the Goldstone bosons have
something to do with that?

But you should be able to think up a slick way to get someone to do the
proton mag moment experiment.  You make a prediction and have found an
experiment that can either prove it or discount it.  And I can tell you
right now that slammin' the Standard Model ain't going to get it done.
You are up against a literal mountain of experimental evidence.  I can
already see ways in which your concepts are not so contrary.  But as it
stands right now, you just have way too much in your ideas that are
contrary.  Especially that a massless spin zero particle could be a
neutrino.  That ain't never going to fly.  The best thing I see that you
have going is the concept of magnetic coupling of nucleons.

| >snip<
| > | >> But this is really besides the main point here.  The fact that he
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
| exits the nucleous and removes the binding energy, for the mass defect,
| so that old pion exchange theory is not the correct mechanism.

Well, I am trying to find a derivation for it now.  We will see.  There
has to be EM involved with pions also.

|  Creating a photon takes the confluence of BOTH electric and magnetic
| forces, as QVPP demonstrates.    The conjunction of EM forces makes  it
| is possible to create a photon and get the correct values for the
| bindings between (p-p) (p-n) (n-n)  as amply demonstrated (for the
| first time ever) by QVPP.

Are you sure the binding energies have never been derived using the
strong force and pion exchange?  I find that hard to believe but maybe
that is why I am having trouble finding an online derivation.  Old Man
mentioned a nuclear physics book a couple of weeks ago.  Maybe I will
have to invest in that book.

| Mike said;
| > | > I haven't looked how he derives the binding energy for anything
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
| that I have not tried to use.  My oldest daughter (Pat) has the whole
| suite of  photo shop.

It doesn't take photo shop.  A word processor will do the trick.  If you
have MS Word, learn how to use Equation Editor that comes with it if you
don't already know.  It's easy.  Then print it to a postscript file
using a dummy postscript printer driver like one of the Apple ones if
you want color.  Or email me the Word doc.  I can make a PDF and a
postscript file for you.

|  (BTW, Pat designed the cover and back cover of the new book.  All can
| see a scan of it on Amazon.com,   inside of the 0963154664 book.)

I guess you forgot that you sent me a book?  Yes, very cool modern
looking cover.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Michael Moroney - 19 Jul 2005 16:29 GMT
>| Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists
>| chosen at random.

>In the Hollywood music business, that is called "shotgunning".  It
>rarely works.

>| Image you were they, and you got something in the mail from a
>stranger.
>|  You might glance at it, but as soon as you saw something you thought
>| was WRONG,  you might just file it, or, as Bjoern did,  throw it away.

>Most will throw it away unless you have something that really knocks
>them out right away.

It would be interesting if it were possible to find out, of the DVDs that
were looked at, how many were tossed when the viewer recognized an "x=x"
proof for what it is vs. how many were tossed when they saw a gross
violation of conservation laws without explanation (such as neutrinoless
B+ decay) vs. how many were tossed because of too many instances of
phrases such as "failed SM model".
tnlockyer@aol.com - 19 Jul 2005 19:46 GMT
> | For some reason Google just repeated your article before;  Try this:
> |
> | FrediFizzx wrote:

>snip<
> | Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists
> | chosen at random.

> In the Hollywood music business, that is called "shotgunning".  It
> rarely works.

>snip<

> | I have presented articles to NATURE, SCIENCE etc. to no avail.   At my
> | age I don't feel like fighting windmills anymore.

> Maybe that should tell you that some adjustments are needed to your
> models.  IMHO, what you think are neutrinos are not.  Massless spin zero
> quantum objects can only be Goldstone bosons.

Nope, go back to all of the earlier experiments that tried to get
neutrino characteristics.

Everyone of them were based on radioactive series that were EC or B+
decay processes, and these decay processes can now be shown (see QVPP
page 14) that the neutrino had to be absorbed, not expelled.

Note that  (n-1H) is negative when a neutrino is expelled (B- decay)
and positive (EC or B+ decay) when a neutrino is shown to be absorbed
in the daughter.  Look at those old experiments, they all used the
characteristics of the expelled photon, not neutrino.  That's what
caused their error in conclusions.

>Your electron and
> positron models are generic fermion models.  An electron is a quark that
> has lost its color charge.  Or a quark is an electron that has gained
> color charge.  Now how could that be?  Maybe the Goldstone bosons have
> something to do with that?

Fredi,   QVPP builds the whole universe of matter,  using electrons and
neutrinos.   This is true experimentally because electrons and
neutrinos are the final decay particles of ANY decay process (with the
exception of the stable proton).

Try to explain final decay, electrons and neutrinos  using the  quark
theory, and this should show you that the quark is a false idea.

> But you should be able to think up a slick way to get someone to do the
> proton mag moment experiment.  You make a prediction and have found an
> experiment that can either prove it or discount it.  And I can tell you
> right now that slammin' the Standard Model ain't going to get it done.
> You are up against a literal mountain of experimental evidence.

Fredi,  yes there is a mountain of data, but it was done to adjust the
quark model so it could handle it's own affairs.  The results rely on
theory to interpret, which pre-supposes the theory is correct.  (For
example see the Foreword, page x, search for the postulated W boson.)

>I can
> already see ways in which your concepts are not so contrary.  But as it
> stands right now, you just have way too much in your ideas that are
> contrary.  Especially that a massless spin zero particle could be a
> neutrino.  That ain't never going to fly.  The best thing I see that you
> have going is the concept of magnetic coupling of nucleons.

Fredi,  the popular idea that the neutrino spins is technically wrong.

If the neutrino spun, it would store rest mass energy in the spin.

http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/spinmass.gif

QVPP shows that the neutrino only spins when it's vectors are added to
those of the electrons (see page 12 and 13 of QVPP)

Combining electron and neutrino structures give the neutrino their
spin, so they can contribute mass to the composites.

The model for the photon can only create electrons and neutrinos as
basic particles.  All other particles HAVE to be composites of these.

And by adding the decay electron and neutrino to the proton structure,
one gets the mass of the neutron.

A QVPP result,  is to get (n-1H) from the proton and neutron
structures, something the SM has failed to do even after spending
millions of man hours and billions of dollars.

> | >snip<
> | > | >> But this is really besides the main point here.  The fact that
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> defect,
> | so that old pion exchange theory is not the correct mechanism.

> Well, I am trying to find a derivation for it now.  We will see.  There
> has to be EM involved with pions also.

Never work, Fredi.  The trouble is there is nothing to hang your hat
on.   You have to derive the energy sometime and QVPP does that from
first principles.

> |  Creating a photon takes the confluence of BOTH electric and magnetic
> | forces, as QVPP demonstrates.    The conjunction of EM forces makes
> it
> | is possible to create a photon and get the correct values for the
> | bindings between (p-p) (p-n) (n-n)  as amply demonstrated (for the
> | first time ever) by QVPP.

> Are you sure the binding energies have never been derived using the
> strong force and pion exchange?  I find that hard to believe but maybe
> that is why I am having trouble finding an online derivation.  Old Man
> mentioned a nuclear physics book a couple of weeks ago.  Maybe I will
> have to invest in that book.

No they have not derived binding energy from the strong force.  They
gave the NOBEL in 2004 for the asymptotic freedom gig theory for
quarks..  Not a claim for obtaining actual binding energy.

There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
atomic and chemical energy,

the former between nucleons and the later between the proton and
electron.

And Fredi, I know that the binding energy is dependent of the position
of the nucleons, in nuclei, and that the binding energy can thus change
, creating or absorbing atomic energy due to the interplay between EM
fields that accompany each nucleon.

The idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea.  Only the
photon particle can mediate forces.  Particles don't move unless the
photon says so.

Regards, Tom;      www.amazon.com 0963154664
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jul 2005 06:21 GMT
Hi Tom

[...]

> The model for the photon can only create electrons and neutrinos as
> basic particles.  All other particles HAVE to be composites of these.

Well, you might have the basis of a very powerful
source of energy if you can convert Baryons to
Leptons. It would make fusion look like a fire-
cracker. Is that right?
[...]

>  There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
> atomic and chemical energy,
[...]
> The idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea.  Only the
> photon particle can mediate forces.  Particles don't move unless the
> photon says so.
> Regards, Tom;      www.amazon.com 0963154664

Sounds Reasonable
Ken S. Tucker
FrediFizzx - 20 Jul 2005 07:21 GMT
| Hi Tom
|
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
| Leptons. It would make fusion look like a fire-
| cracker. Is that right?

This is one of the BIG problems with Tom's proton model.  It is not
stable against decay like the three quark proton model.  It should
easily decay to all leptons and photons.  Tom has no mechanism to hold
it together that I have been able to see.  Tom?

Note:  The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing
it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and
also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon.  There is
nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically.

| >  There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
| > atomic and chemical energy,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
|
| Sounds Reasonable

First he says "the idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea",
then says photons can.  I think Tom needs to restate that better. ;-)
IMHO, only a medium can "mediate".

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jul 2005 10:52 GMT
> | Hi Tom
> |
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> easily decay to all leptons and photons.  Tom has no mechanism to hold
> it together that I have been able to see.  Tom?

Well Fred, I've done some calculations about
how neutrons behave in the center of a n-star
and find baryons can convert to leptons.
 This is validated by gamma ray bursts.

IOW's Baryon's and Lepton's can introconvert
(possibly) in extreme circumstances.
Tom should specify that and why, how and when,
sheesh even I can do that.

> Note:  The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing
> it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and
> also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon.  There is
> nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically.

Yes, if the quark model is true.

> | >  There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
> | > atomic and chemical energy,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> then says photons can.  I think Tom needs to restate that better. ;-)
> IMHO, only a medium can "mediate".

hmmm...must think about that, sounds good!
Ken
FrediFizzx - 21 Jul 2005 08:08 GMT
| > | Hi Tom
| > |
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
| Tom should specify that and why, how and when,
| sheesh even I can do that.

Yo Ken, I am not sure what "introconvert" means. ;-)  It really wouldn't
be the baryons converting but the quarks making up them would convert to
leptons.  In our scheme, a reconfiguration of space-time would be
necessary for the quark content of baryons to convert to leptons.  I
suppose not impossible for space-time to be reconfigured with something
like a neutron star, black hole or reasonable facsimile.

| > Note:  The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing
| > it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and
| > also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon.  There is
| > nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically.
|
| Yes, if the quark model is true.

Unfortunately for Tom, there is a literal mountain of evidence in favor
of the quark model.  But what Tom doesn't realize is that he probably
has quarks in his model also.  I believe his electron-positron models
are just basic fermion models anywise.  An electron is just a quark that
has lost its color charge.

| > | >  There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
| > | > atomic and chemical energy,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
| hmmm...must think about that, sounds good!
| Ken

Yep.  Space-time is just a very special medium.  It *does* do the
mediating.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Ken S. Tucker - 21 Jul 2005 14:48 GMT
> | > | Hi Tom
> | > |
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> suppose not impossible for space-time to be reconfigured with something
> like a neutron star, black hole or reasonable facsimile.

Fred I presume you are aware of the Pauli Exclusion
Principle. In theory, (perhaps conjecture), when
enough pressure is applied to a pair of neutrons,
such as in the center of a neutron star, the relative
relation will force their relative spins to reverse,
so that each is a relatively anti-neutron.
 When an anti-neutron and a neutron combine they
do decay ultimately to gamma rays, the gamma
ray bursts is evidence of that.

> | > Note:  The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is
> nothing
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> FrediFizzx

Ok, still thinkin'
Ken S. Tucker
FrediFizzx - 22 Jul 2005 02:01 GMT
| > | > | Hi Tom
| > | > |
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
| do decay ultimately to gamma rays, the gamma
| ray bursts is evidence of that.

Well, I would like to see the math for that.  Or a reference.

FrediFizzx

| > | > Note:  The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is
| > nothing
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
| Ok, still thinkin'
| Ken S. Tucker
Ken S. Tucker - 22 Jul 2005 03:28 GMT
[...]
> | > | Well Fred, I've done some calculations about
> | > | how neutrons behave in the center of a n-star
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Well, I would like to see the math for that.  Or a reference.
> FrediFizzx

Sure Fred, see this thread...

Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
From: dynam...@vianet.on.ca (Ken S. Tucker)
Date: 10 Feb 2003 15:25:35 -0800
Local: Mon,Feb 10 2003 6:25 pm
Subject: Neutron star pressure.

Let me know if you have any problems finding it,
and then we can discuss it if you like.
Ken
tnlockyer@aol.com - 20 Jul 2005 17:21 GMT
> | Hi Tom
> |
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> easily decay to all leptons and photons.  Tom has no mechanism to hold
> it together that I have been able to see.  Tom?

Yes, see page 27.   Quote:

The electrostatic forces, between conjugating layers, effectively holds
the composite proton and anti-proton stable against decay.    Un-
quote:

> Note:  The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing
> it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and
> also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon.  There is
> nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically.

Huh?  I thought the QCD proton had both kinds (up, down) and they think
that the quark proton can decay into a quark  neutron via the crackpot
W+.

It can't, we know experimentally that the proton only converts to a
neutron in certain unstable nuclei  by electron capture.  The electron
can come from the K shell or from pair production (when a positron is
expelled from the pair).

> | >  There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
> | > atomic and chemical energy,
> | [...]

Ken said;
> | > The idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea.  Only the
> | > photon particle can mediate forces.  Particles don't move unless the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> then says photons can.  I think Tom needs to restate that better. ;-)
> IMHO, only a medium can "mediate".

What I meant to say was;

The idea that the pion or W or Higgs can mediate forces is a false
idea. Only the
> | > photon particle can mediate forces.  Particles don't move unless the
> | > photon says so.

Regards; Tom.
FrediFizzx - 21 Jul 2005 02:27 GMT
| > | Hi Tom
| > |
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
| the composite proton and anti-proton stable against decay.    Un-
| quote:

Yeah, but we know that is only ~= 5% of the mass of the proton.  I don't
think it is enough to hold your model of the proton against immediate
decay.

| > Note:  The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing
| > it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| that the quark proton can decay into a quark  neutron via the crackpot
| W+.

Yes the proton is made up of up and down quarks.  Even with that, there
is no scheme that I can think of that allows them to pair up as mesons
so that they could decay.  A free proton can't decay.  However a bound
proton can change to a neutron not "decay" to a neutron.  Only a free
neutron can decay to a proton.

| It can't, we know experimentally that the proton only converts to a
| neutron in certain unstable nuclei  by electron capture.  The electron
| can come from the K shell or from pair production (when a positron is
| expelled from the pair).

If you try to "gently" force two protons together, one will change
to a neutron because an up quark changes to a down quark in one of the
bound protons.

| > | >  There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
| > | > atomic and chemical energy,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
| > | > photon particle can mediate forces.  Particles don't move unless the
| > | > photon says so.

I don't see much difference between a photon, pion or W from our
viewpoint of a relativistic medium.  The photon is long range and the
others aren't because they have mass.  They all can be modeled as
composites of virtual fermion pairs.

FrediFizzx
tnlockyer@aol.com - 21 Jul 2005 18:13 GMT
>snip<
> | > | Well, you might have the basis of a very powerful
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> | the composite proton and anti-proton stable against decay.    Un-
> | quote:

> Yeah, but we know that is only ~= 5% of the mass of the proton.  I don't
> think it is enough to hold your model of the proton against immediate
> decay.

Fredi, it is an experimental fact that the only stable composite
particles in the universe are the proton and neutron ( the neutron is
only stable in certain stable nuclei, otherwise the neutron decays in
about 15 minutes, into an electron, proton and electron type neutrino).

QVPP builds both proton and neutron from electrons and or positron in
combination with the electron type neutrinos.  (Just like experiment
suggests, in the neutron decay.)

See page 13, and note that the QVPP electron type neutrino causes
charge conjugation, when vectors are added to the electron or positron,
 member by member, thus developing  the electrostatic forces between
nested neutrinos.

Calculate the electrostatic force between those close spaced
conjugating layers.   The force  is enormous, making the proton very
stable against decay.

>snip>
Tom said;
> | It can't, we know experimentally that the proton only converts to a
> | neutron in certain unstable nuclei  by electron capture.  The electron
> | can come from the K shell or from pair production (when a positron is
> | expelled from the pair).

Fredi sez.
> Yes the proton is made up of up and down quarks.  Even with that, there
> is no scheme that I can think of that allows them to pair up as mesons
> so that they could decay.  A free proton can't decay.  However a bound
> proton can change to a neutron not "decay" to a neutron.  Only a free
> neutron can decay to a proton.

I agree with every thing you say, except that the proton is made up of
quarks.  This presupposes that the QCD theory is correct.

Fredi, the quark model has died for lack of progress.  Why do you
suppose that the string theory is being worked on as the next great
hope of particle physics?

> If you try to "gently" force two protons together, one will change
> to a neutron because an up quark changes to a down quark in one of the
> bound protons.

Huh?   I am reasonably sure that the proton cannot change another
proton into a neutron.   To change a proton into a neutron, the proton
has to capture an electron and (n-1H) energy to complete the neutron's
structure.   Quark theory can't do that by any stretch of the
imagination.

>snip<
> | > First he says "the idea that particles mediate forces is a false
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the
> | > | > photon says so.

> I don't see much difference between a photon, pion or W from our
> viewpoint of a relativistic medium.  The photon is long range and the
> others aren't because they have mass.  They all can be modeled as
> composites of virtual fermion pairs.

The problem I see with particle physics is that theorists invent any
particle they want to and then endow it with the properties they
imagine it should have to do make their theory work.  (Playing  god?)

Note with QVPP the boundary condition on the types of basic particles
nature has, is automatically given to us by simply combining the photon
in ALL possible ways.  One doesn't have to play god,  just go with what
the QVPP photon automatically shows.

If  SM theorists propose some new particle, or quark or massive boson,
or tau neutrino, etc,  they must show how their proposed particles are
constructed, otherwise, in my view,  they are writing checks that
nature can't cash.

QVPP is the only theory that automatically establishes it's own
boundary conditions,  clearly limiting basic particles to just the
electron-positron pair , electron type neutrino and muon type neutrino
pair.  As shown it the book, one can structure all other composite
particles, from those lepton's vector structures.

Regards: Tom;

www.amazon.com     0963154664
tnlockyer@aol.com - 20 Jul 2005 17:05 GMT
> Hi Tom
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cracker. Is that right?
> [...]

Ken, The QVPP proton is very stable because there is a charge
conjugation created between nested neutrinos in it's structure.  The
resulting electric potential energy between nested neutrinos adds about
5 percent to the proton mass and holds the proton stable against decay.

Fusion energy is the new binding energy created when nucleons rearrange
their null patterns, with each other.  QVPP does show how these
processes occur.   It's in the book.

> >  There has to be a photon created.  A photon is the source of both
> > atomic and chemical energy,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Sounds Reasonable
> Ken S. Tucker

THanks:  Regards: Tom:
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jul 2005 21:16 GMT
> > Hi Tom
> >
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> THanks:  Regards: Tom:

I'm very curious if you find Baryon conservation
to be a "Law", for example we've done some
calculations indicating that under sufficent pressure
(center of a neutron star), baryons (like neutrons),
can decay ultimately to gamma rays. I was hoping
to hear your opinion about that based on QVPP.
Regards
Ken

PS
I'm looking foward to studying your book this fall
or winter when I can go "full time" as a student.
tnlockyer@aol.com - 16 Jul 2005 17:00 GMT
> >| You have to dig deeper, namely where he derives the two constants he
> >| calls "undamped magnetic moments of the proton and neutron".  In one
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Not deep enough.

Tom writes;
Mike, that is my complaint about you.  You look at isolated results and
judge that it is trivial.  When you can't find a technical error in the
results, you claim x=x.

> Thanks, you made me have to hunt down that other .gif of his where
> Tom introduces the deuteron binding energy into the equations to derive
> the "undamped magnetic moment" variables, from which he pulls out the
> deuteron binding energy.  I found it, it is:

> http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/PNSTRONG.gif .  Look in the VARIABLES LIST
> and you'll see him introduce it to define "C", a term of some quadradic.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Classic x=x proof.  Much more sophisticated than most of his others.
> I'm surprised you didn't catch it.

Mike,.  The deuteron is simply a binding between a single  proton and
single neutron and was used to show QVPP was giving the correct value
for the un-damped proton magnetic moment, and was using the correct
approach in calculating binding energy..

Here is the QVPP un-damped magnetic moment derivation, and the proof
that there is a damping loss in the published nuclear magnetic
resonance method.

http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/undampedcorrection.gif

You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about
QVPP.

I begged you to get a copy of my books and you as much as said (sight
unseen) that they were a waste of paper.  You have not studied my
methods so have NOT earned the right to comment as an authority.

Tom;

www.amazon.com   0963154664
Michael Moroney - 17 Jul 2005 04:22 GMT
>> >You are wrong Mike.  I have dug very very deep into this.
>>
>> Not deep enough.

>Tom writes;
>Mike, that is my complaint about you.  You look at isolated results and
>judge that it is trivial.  When you can't find a technical error in the
> results, you claim x=x.

No, I didn't look at "isolated results".  I looked at your so-called
proof and saw how you did put the deuteron binding energy in at the
start and pulled it out again.  I just pointed that out.

Don't believe me?  Do the exact same math and the exact same proof but with
one small change.  Input the binding energy of He-4 or Pu-239 or something
instead of that of the deuteron at the start and see what you come up with.

>> Classic x=x proof.  Much more sophisticated than most of his others.
>> I'm surprised you didn't catch it.

>Mike,.  The deuteron is simply a binding between a single  proton and
<snip>

You just regurgitated the same claims without addressing my analysis
of your math.

>Here is the QVPP un-damped magnetic moment derivation, and the proof
>that there is a damping loss in the published nuclear magnetic
>resonance method.

>http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/undampedcorrection.gif

That's nice.  Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy
without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.

>You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about
>QVPP.

You gotta be kidding me!  I point out your sleight of hand and you think I
should apologize for doing so?!?!

> I begged you to get a copy of my books and you as much as said (sight
>unseen) that they were a waste of paper.

I said it would be a waste of my money.  For $25 or whatever, I'd rather
buy a toy for my daughter.  I WILL look at it if I spot it in a library
or whatever.

>  You have not studied my
>methods so have NOT earned the right to comment as an authority.

I don't have to be an authority to point out algebraic irregularities
(that is, "x=x" proofs).
tnlockyer@aol.com - 17 Jul 2005 16:46 GMT
> >> >You are wrong Mike.  I have dug very very deep into this.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >judge that it is trivial.  When you can't find a technical error in the
> > results, you claim x=x.

> No, I didn't look at "isolated results".  I looked at your so-called
> proof and saw how you did put the deuteron binding energy in at the
> start and pulled it out again.  I just pointed that out.

You did not realize that using the deuteron was to test the NEW idea
that the strong force was due to the near field magnetic forces
exceeding the electric forces  in the near field, between nucleons.

Using the nucleon magnetic moments in the NEW binding energy equation
explains how proton binds to proton,  proton binds to neutron., and
neutron binds to neutron in nuclei.

> >> Classic x=x proof.  Much more sophisticated than most of his others.
> >> I'm surprised you didn't catch it.

> >Mike,.  The deuteron is simply a binding between a single  proton and
> <snip>
>
> You just regurgitated the same claims without addressing my analysis
> of your math.

What you snipped was the crux of the reason for using the deuteron .
As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was
electromagnetic in origin, and that QVPP new magnetic moment for the
proton was correct.  IT WAS.

> >Here is the QVPP un-damped magnetic moment derivation, and the proof
> >that there is a damping loss in the published nuclear magnetic
> >resonance method.

> >http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/undampedcorrection.gif

> That's nice.  Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy
> without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.
Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS.  Damn, QVPP is the correct model
for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should
impress.

Proof of the pudding is that the QVPP methods correctly structured the
proton to give the correct (un-damped) proton magnetic moment, as
proved by the deuteron binding energy calculations, which you nicely
verified as correct.

Nice things about QVPP is that it is a coherent theory, accept any of
its results, you must accept ALL of the postulates and resulting
structures leading up to that result.

So, the fact that the QVPP proton gets the previously unknown value for
the proton's magnetic moment,

must now be accepted, as you nicely pointed out in what you thought
was just  x=x.  It is much more, it is the final proof that QVPP and
all it's postulates ARE CORRECT.

> >You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about
> >QVPP.

> You gotta be kidding me!  I point out your sleight of hand and you think I
> should apologize for doing so?!?!

You completely misjudged the purpose of the deuteron binding energy
calculation.  The deuteron was simply used to derive a value for the
binding magnetic moments between  nucleons (in the year 2000) and to
test the brand new binding energy equation, by using near field
magnetic moments, that were  derived (in 1992).

The results showed that the values derived (in the year 1992) for the
un-damped magnetic moments, were correct.

Thus QVPP and all it's postulates prove to be correct, because QVPP
postulates build on each other.  The ends justify the means.

Tom;

www.amazon.com   0963154664
Michael Moroney - 18 Jul 2005 19:32 GMT
>> >Mike, that is my complaint about you.  You look at isolated results and
>> >judge that it is trivial.  When you can't find a technical error in the
>> > results, you claim x=x.

>> No, I didn't look at "isolated results".  I looked at your so-called
>> proof and saw how you did put the deuteron binding energy in at the
>> start and pulled it out again.  I just pointed that out.

>You did not realize that using the deuteron was to test the NEW idea
>that the strong force was due to the near field magnetic forces
>exceeding the electric forces  in the near field, between nucleons.

No, using the deuteron was to introduce its binding energy into the
equation so that you could pull it back out again.

>> >> Classic x=x proof.  Much more sophisticated than most of his others.
>> >> I'm surprised you didn't catch it.

>> >Mike,.  The deuteron is simply a binding between a single  proton and
>> <snip>
>>
>> You just regurgitated the same claims without addressing my analysis
>> of your math.

>What you snipped was the crux of the reason for using the deuteron .

You really really don't get it, do you?  All you did was come up with a
complicated way of saying "Given that the deuteron's binding energy is
2.225 MeV, I will show that the deuteron's binding energy is 2.225 MeV!"
It is a version of the very old parlor game "Guess the number I'm thinking
of".  It goes something like this for your so-called proof:

"Think of a number, from negative infinity to infinity."  (2.22573*10^6)
"Don't tell me that number, but square it, multiply it
by 64, then multiply it by pi squared...."
...
"Solve for the two roots of that quadradic and tell me    (1.79254*10^-26 and
the two roots.  Give them nice names, Upm and Unm."        1.34817*10^-26)

"Now I'll multiply these numbers together and by 64 and
by pi squared and epsilon-naught cubed and by mu-naught.
Now I'll take the square root, divide e^2 by the result,
was the number you were thinking of, umm, 2.22573*10^6?   (Yes!)

Now try your parlor game with some other number.  Note that for
many cases the two roots will be complex numbers, but their product
will be real.

Oh, if I correct your units so the deuteron's binding energy has the
proper units of energy, "C" will have units of meters^4, and in the
quadradic, adding the square of the sum of two magnetic moments would
be mixing units in addition, which, of course, is wrong.  Not that it
matters much, since the "B" terms of the quadradic cancel out (remember
the products of the two roots of any quadradic is C/A) so you can pick
anything you want for the "B" term so long as it has units of area.
It turns out that dimensionality goes through your algebraic meat grinder
intact (as long as you choose "B" with proper dimensionality each time)
so that fact you put volts in as input and get volts out works, and if
you put energy in as input and you get energy out also works doesn't mean
anything.  Remember, x=x works for units, too.

>As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was
>electromagnetic in origin, and that QVPP new magnetic moment for the
>proton was correct.  IT WAS.

You proved nothing, other than 2.224573*10^6 = 2.224573*10^6.

>> That's nice.  Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy
>> without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.
>Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS.  Damn, QVPP is the correct model
>for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should
>impress.

Well, all those x=x proofs of yours are going to impress nobody.

> must now be accepted, as you nicely pointed out in what you thought
>was just  x=x.  It is much more, it is the final proof that QVPP and
>all it's postulates ARE CORRECT.

Well "x=x" proofs being 'correct' means nothing.  Here's an earthshaking
equation:  5=5.  It's absolutely correct.  But it reveals absolutely
nothing of any use.  So many of your so-called proofs are just as useless
if you simply bother to simplify the algebra, which you never do.
How about this proof: Pi = C/SS.  C is the circumference of a circle
whose diameter is your shoe size, and SS is your shoe size.  Amazing! I
just calculated pi in terms of your shoe size, and I didn't even have to
know your shoe size to do so!

>> >You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about
>> >QVPP.

>> You gotta be kidding me!  I point out your sleight of hand and you think I
>> should apologize for doing so?!?!

>You completely misjudged the purpose of the deuteron binding energy
>calculation.  The deuteron was simply used to derive a value for the

I misjudged nothing.  I just showed you your so-called proof is a parlor
game where you plug in a number and get the same number back.  An x=x
proof.
Autymn D. C. - 19 Jul 2005 03:29 GMT
quadratic
That's not a quadratic.
Michael Moroney - 19 Jul 2005 04:49 GMT
>quadratic
>That's not a quadratic.

I left out several steps.  See the .gif Tom made available for the gory
details.
tnlockyer@aol.com - 19 Jul 2005 17:54 GMT
> >> >Mike, that is my complaint about you.  You look at isolated results and
> >> >judge that it is trivial.  When you can't find a technical error in the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >that the strong force was due to the near field magnetic forces
> >exceeding the electric forces  in the near field, between nucleons.

> No, using the deuteron was to introduce its binding energy into the
> equation so that you could pull it back out again.

Mike, you never cease to amaze me, are you really that dense that you
cannot see the purpose of the exercise, with the deuteron binding
energy, was  to verify  the QVPP un-damped magnetic moments for the
proton and neutron,

and to test the theory that the binding energy was due to the new field
magnetic moments of the nucleons.

It was thus proved that QVPP had the correct magnetic moments, and
indeed, the strong force is due to the near field magnetic moments.

Both un-damped magnetic moments and the near field magnetic moment
strong force, are brand new results that physics missed over the last
100 years.

Accept this, or spend another 100 years trying to make  existing
bankrupt physics theories get tangible results.

The QVPP binding energy teachings not only allow calculating binding
energy of complex nuclei,

but show the details of why certain nuclei have isomeric states,

why certain nuclei  beta decay and convert to other isotopes,

how certain isotopes disintegrate by gamma rays, slow neutrons and slow
protons,  and the exact nature of atomic energy processes.

It's all in the book you  refuse to buy.

>snip<
> >As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >> That's nice.  Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy
> >> without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.

> >Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS.  Damn, QVPP is the correct model
> >for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should
> >impress.

OK, here are some  results of QVPP deuteron binding energy equation.

http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/QVPdeuteronbind.jpg

Note that Bpn1 is the deuteron using the quadratic derived values for
proton magnetic moment Upmx of 1.79253796637 E-16 (A.m^2) and neutron
1.34816770377 E-26 (A.m^2).

And that:
Bpn uses QVPP values of  Upm=1.81045733 E-26 (A.m^2) and
Unm=1.366087172 E-26 (A.m^2) derived from the QVPP geometric scaling to
the proton and neutron structures.

Then I show that IF the measured binding energy of the deuteron was off
by 13.6 ppm  the measurement would have gotten the QVPP value of
2.198970812 E6 MeV. In equivalent volts, using QVPP values for the
un-damped magnetic moments.

So, in the new QVPP book, I use the QVPP values for the un-damped
magnetic moments EXCLUSIVELY for calculating binding energy, with good
results. You have already seen some examples, from the book you refuse
to buy, here is one;

http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/Page69.gif

>snip<

Regards: Tom;

www,amazon.com     0963154664
Michael Moroney - 20 Jul 2005 16:29 GMT
>>snip<
>> >As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> >> That's nice.  Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy
>> >> without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.

>> >Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS.  Damn, QVPP is the correct model
>> >for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should
>> >impress.

>OK, here are some  results of QVPP deuteron binding energy equation.

>http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/QVPdeuteronbind.jpg

> Note that Bpn1 is the deuteron using the quadratic derived values for
>proton magnetic mo