Electron is not a point particle mathematically
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FrediFizzx - 15 Jul 2005 19:17 GMT [reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread]
"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <bjoern.feuerbacher@pci.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message news:db7qib$j6d$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de...
| FrediFizzx wrote: | > "Bjoern Feuerbacher" <bjoern.feuerbacher@pci.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in
| > message news:db583r$pg7$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de... | > | FrediFizzx wrote: | > | | > | [snip] | > | | > | > Here is my take on some of Tom's ideas which I have studied | > extensively | > | > in the past. | > | > | > | > He does successfully predict the mass of the proton and neutron | > though I | > | > have not exactly been able to figure out why and how it could | > possibly | > | > match the SM. But every year I get a little bit closer. He also
| > does | > | > very well with nuclear binding energies using adjusted magnetic | > moments | > | > for the proton and neutron. So there *is* something very uncanny
| > about | > | > his concepts. | > | | > | Didn't you notice that he is merely able to do that by *putting the
| > | already known values* *into* his calculation at the start and merely
| > | pulling them out again with some sleights of the hand? | > | > Which known values? I think he only starts with the rest mass of the
| > electron and gets the proton and neutron masses using that and geometry.
| I haven't seen much of his book so far. But e.g. when he claims to | calculate the binding energy of the deuteron and the magnetic moments | of the proton and the neutron, he puts these values into his | calculation right from the start. Same for the mass, charge and | magnetic moment of the electron. No. He doesn't do that. You really need to study his books. Most of the values he derives starting with his model of energy (really two photons) and geometric principles. I think you could backtrack all of his values to the input parameter of two photons with energy equal to 2*m_e*c^2. So starting with the rest mass enegy of electrons and positrons and using geometrical configurations, he derives all the rest. Except for the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron. He makes an adjustment for that also.
But the big thing that really gets me curious, is how he gets a massive amount of nuclear binding energies very close using magnetic coupling of nucleons and using his derived mag moments of the proton and neutron from his models. IOW, he is getting the proper photon energies for binding using,
e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))
Where mu_p and mu_n are *his* derived values for the magnetic moments of the proton and neutron. Let's convert this to cgs units and make some substitutions.
alpha*hbar*c(e*c)/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))
alpha*e*c/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n)) = 1/(photon wavelength)
So this expression does give us the proper photon wavelength of the binding energy using his values of mu_p and mu_n as input. Now, how is this connected to nuclear physics? There has to be a connection somehow. Using his geometrical scheme, he just gets too much correct. Way too much!!
| > | > He is trying to make one photon out of two photons. | > | | > | I did not notice that so far. Where does he do that? | > | > Out of his "model" for energy (his single photon) he creates an electron
| > and positron. We know that takes at least two photons. | | Oh, yes, I remember telling this him before... ;-) | | > | > Two photons and his concept somewhat works OK. | > | > | > | > What he takes to be an electron neutrino, I take to be a Goldstone
| > | > boson. Funny how those Goldstone bosons popup even in the SM. | > | | > | A neutrino has spin 1/2, so how can you take it to be a boson? | > | > What Tom is calling a neutrino in his model has zero spin in his model.
| > It must be a boson. | | Neutrinos have zero spin in his model? Wow. How does he explain | conservation | of angular momentum in beta decay? He doesn't bother, right? (after | all, he thinks that angular momentum and linear momentum are | convertible into each other...) Yes. I do think the neutrino part of his concept is seriously flawed.
| > | > So that leaves two of his vector particles | > | | > | Were you able to figure out what he means with "vector"? | > | > Loosely. He is basically connecting up orthogonal vectors of equal | > length. | | And what has that to do with constructing models of composite particles?
Did you snip out the part that leads to that?
FrediFizzx
particle p6 - 15 Jul 2005 21:01 GMT > [reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread] > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > somehow. Using his geometrical scheme, he just gets too much correct. > Way too much!! Really? Gee maybe I have to read the entire book after all. I hope someone with good knowledge in classical electrodynamics can help analyze his "geometric scheme". In the following is chapter 1 and 2 which gives complete details of how the EM vector can be allegedly made into geometric cubes that form particles. I start with chapter 2 which details the cube construction. Chapter 1 details how the properties such as spin, rest mass, charges are made from the geometric confinement. (To Lockyer, don't worry I won't post other chapters. Just this crucial first two for our scrutiny)
Lockyer wrote:
Chapter 2
THE NATURE OF LEPTONS THE SHAPE OF PARTICLE MODELS
To preserve the orthogonal arrangement that exists between the (E) and (H) photon field vectors, the particle models are constructed in the form of vector cube frameworks. This form factor is admirably suited to scaling of nested cubes, and forming the composite proton, neutron, pion and muon models. Setting vector lengths equal to wavelengths allows the cube particle geometry to show that subatomic particles spin at (1/2 h bar) with charge e.
RULES FOR CONSTRUCTING BASIC PARTICLES
Figure 1.2 http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/PHOTONmodel.gif
showed that the wavelength rate of vector growth will change from zero to the e and back twice each cycle. The calculus of related rates can be used to show that absolutely perfect cube structures form, as the length rate of each member changes at exactly 'c'. Equation (2.1) calculus demonstrates that the cube face perimeter ceases to change, when side rates of length change are all (simultaneously) equal.
Perimeter P = 2(x + y) : dP/dt= 2 [dx/dt + dy/dt]
setting dP/dt = 0 then dx/dt = - dy/dt
In Equation (2.1) the perimeter will stablize when (x)(S) Poynting vectors and attached (v) (E) electric or (H) magnetic vectors are exactly the same length at exactly the velocity of light. Visualize the (E), (H) and (S) rate of change going from (and to) the peak 1.414 c value, so they will instantaneously and simultaneously have exactly the same wavelength when the time rate of both is exactly the rms velocity of "c". At the resulting precise pair energy the vecto rs connect, one to the other, forming int o the cube structures. By assuring vector directions going into and out of each (S) vector edge, only the three known lepton pairs can form. This immediately establishes a boundary condition on the number of basic leptons possible, and the particle models are naturally self-limiting. The resulting electron and neutrino structures are shown in Figure 2.1.
http://www.pbase.com/image/46224915/original Figure 2.1
Anticipating later results, the Figure 2.1 models are labeled as the leptons they mimic. The electron and positron have a structure that adds the momentum of the photons in their front and back cube faces, as the mechanism for particle spin. In Chapter 1. Equation (1.5), it was shown that particle mass (energy) is exactly equal to the energy stored in the spill angular momentum. The electron and positron models immediately have acquired mass by virtue of their spin. The anti-particle conjugation is revealed as having an (E) where the mate has an (H) and the reverse. In Figure 2.1, the model labeled "Electron Type Neutrino" does not show a conjugate. The electron type neutrino is its on anti-particle, by a space rotation of 180 degrees about any axis. Electron type neutrinos, being their own anti-particle, have profound effect when we construct the composite proton and neutron model. The muon type neutrino shows an anti-particle. Pair production is modeled as a breaking apart of a photo n fireball, and annihila tion as recombining of vectors, back into the photons.
It should be noted here, that these models were given automatically by the modeling process, not invented. The models are ALL constructed (blindl)) by simply combining the energy model in all possible ways. In fact, any average student could show the structure of the electron, positron, electron type neutrino, and muon type neutrino pair, by simply combining the energy model in all possible ways. This is the way particles must be 9 created in nature, automatically and precisely. In Chapter I the balancing of forces for pair production of the electron and positron were given ill Equations (1.1), (1.2) and (1.3). This is now shown schematically in Figure 2.3
http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/pairsep.gif Figure 2.3
The pair production is possible because the strength of the near field opposing magnetic moments exceeds that of the enormous electric attraction. Forces balance at the null distance shown and calculated in Equation (1.3).
Neutrino pairs have never been seen to annihilate. The theoretical reason in these models, is that neutrinos do not move, when energy is applied. Neutrinos' unique structures are postulated to force them to get smaller, rather than move, when energy is applied, and this provides for the scaling of the nested cubes, forming the composite proton, neutron, moon and pion.
In the next chapter, the two types of neutrino characteristics will be discussed in detail.
CHAPTER 1 THE NATURE OF ENERGY
SETTING THE STAGE
Particle are photo produced in pairs, from electromagnetic energy (photons). For example, the creation of the electron positron pair is the product of photon energy, in the presence of matter. The matter serves to turn the photons back into a fireball and to reduce the energy to the exact energy required for electron-positron creation. Fig 1.1 dramatically shows a typical cloud chamber record of the photo production of the electron-positron pairs.
http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/photopair.gif Figure 1.1
In Figure 1.1 three electron-positron pairs were created by 330MeV energy (x-ray) photons in the presence of a lead (matter) target. The target lead plate serves to Compton scatter the x-ray photons, reducing fireball energy to the required (1.0121998 Mev) electron pair energy to form each of the pairs. An external magnetic field serves to separate and measure the pair characteristics. It can be shown that the pairs form, at their exact and exclusive energy, on account of the balance between non linear electric and magnetic forces, each that vary at different rates.
BALANCING FORCES FOR PAIR PRODUCTION
A newly created electron and positron will have an enormous electrostatic attraction due to the formation of their negative and positive charges. The pair develops their positive and negative attractive charges as they spin up in the same direction. By spinning in the same direction, the (negative) electron and (positive) positron, develop internal charge currents. that create magnetic moments that oppose. In the near field, the opposing magnetic force (Ue-, Ue+ ) varies inversely as the fourth power of the separation, and thus is larger than the attracting electric (e-,,e+) force, which only varies inversely as the square of the same separation distance (m), Equations (I.1) and (1.2).
(Eo is permittivity, Uo is permeability of vacuum)
Fe = [e^2/4piEo(m^2)] Electric force, Newton (1.1)
Fu = [2UoUe-(Ue+]/2pi(m^4) Magnetic force, Newton (1.2)
In Equation (1.3) we combine (Fe) (Fu) and solve for a common separation distance (m) where electric and magnetic forces will be equal (null). The result is a separation distance (m).
m = Sqrt [4UoEoUe-Ue+/e^2] m = 3.86607074 x 10^-13
Equations (El), (1.2) and (1.3) demonstrate that it is possible for the (e-,e+) pairs to form and then separate, by magnetic moments ( Ue-,Ue+ ) despite the enormous (e- ,e+) electric charge attractions. Were it not so, matter, as we know it. could not exist.
THE ENERGY MODEL
As demonstrated in Figure 1.1, (photon fireballs) with an energy twice the electron's rest mass energy, (1.021998 MeV) can create the electron-positron pair. It will now be shown that the electron's rest mass energy is entirely the energy stored (Joule seconds) in the spin angular momentum and that the angular momentum conserves that photon's linear momentum exactly. Equations (I.4), (1.5) and (1.6)
spin = h/4pi = J(sec)/4pi = Rm(me)c (1.4)
Where: Rm = mass radius [wavelengthc/4pi] me = electron mass c = velocity of light sec = total time (wavelength@e/c)
: J(wavelengthe)/4pi(c) = me(c)wavelength@e/4pi finally J = me(c^2) (1.5)
Energy of photon. Jp = h fe = hc / wavelength@e
Momentum of photon = P = Jp/c
Then P Rm = h wavelength@e / wavelength@e 4 pi = h /4 pi check (1.6)
Equation (1.4) gives the source of the quantized (h /47r) spin angular momentum as simply the mass (Me,) times the radius of gyration (wavelength/4pi) times a velocity of gyration (c). Using the electron's mass and the velocity of light gives us a mass radius equal to one half of the electron's rationalized Compton wavelength or (wavelength/4pi). This value will also be obtained and verified from the electron model. See Chapter 4. In Equation (1.5) the algebra shows that the entire rest mass energy is stored in the spin angular momentum. Equation (I.6) shows that the linear momentum, of the photon energy that created the electrons, is conserved in the resulting spin angular momentum. Figure 1.2. shows the model for the photon derived from a schematic for a traveling wave of electromagnetic energy, as a dynamic Poynting vector representing wavelength, not amplitude.
http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/PHOTONmodel.gif Figure 1.2
The waveform is a sinusoid, and undulates, from peak wavelength to zero twice each cycle, but must conserve energy over all time. This is accomplished by an exchange of energy, in the relativistic frame, between the two conjugate electromagnetic resonances. In free space. the ratio between electric field strength (E = volt per meter) and magnetic field strength (H= Ampere per meter) is equal to the impedance of the vacuum (Zo), Equation (1.7).
E = V/m ; H = A/m; Zo = Sqrt (Uo/Eo) = E/H = kg.m.s^-3.A^-1/A.m^-1
Zo = 376.7303135.kg.m^2.s^-3.A^-2 (Ohm)
There is a resonant exchange of energy that dithers between the permeability (Henry per meter) (Uo) and the permittivity (Farad per meter) (Eo) of the vacuum, in the same fashion as a (LC) resonant circuit. Referring to Figure 1.2, the action perfectly conserves the energy (straight lines the quantity) by shifting the energy from the lateral to axial, and back again as the photon travels, inch worm style at the rms velocity of light. The energy is conserved by the well-known trigonometric identity sin^2 theta + cos^2 theta = 1), which, for the two conjugate resonances of Figure 1 ,2. becomes Equation (I.8).
VPP = 0.5 [sin^2 theta E.H) = (cos^2 theta H.E)]
Notice that the energy loss by the lateral (sine) is gain by the axial (cosine) and the reverse. This well-known action, by a resonant circuit, conserves the energy (over all time). The energy maintains a constant value, regardless of the angle (0) by an electric to magnetic and magnetic to electric energy exchange. The motion of the photon is (thus) discontinuous as the energy cycles between lateral top dead center and the axial development, so that the velocity of light is a rms (root mean square) value from zero to -T2. c . The photon energy model (Figure 1.2) forms the basis for Quantum Vector Particle Physics (QVPP). This will have profound effect when we construct leptons directly, from the photon energy model, in the next chapter.
FrediFizzx - 15 Jul 2005 21:42 GMT | > [reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread] | > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] | I hope someone with good knowledge in classical electrodynamics | can help analyze his "geometric scheme". The geometric scheme I was referring to above is for combining of the nucleons.
| In the following is | chapter 1 and 2 which gives complete details of how the EM [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | (To Lockyer, don't worry I won't post other chapters. Just this | crucial first two for our scrutiny) This probably has to do with the electrodynamical configuration of the quantum "vacuum", IMHO. Plus rotate a cube and it defines a cylinder.
FrediFizzx
Michael Moroney - 15 Jul 2005 22:31 GMT >[reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread] I had the same problem. I'll repeat what I just posted below:
>"Bjoern Feuerbacher" <bjoern.feuerbacher@pci.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in >message news:db7qib$j6d$1@news.urz.uni-heidelberg.de... >| FrediFizzx wrote:
>| I haven't seen much of his book so far. But e.g. when he claims to >| calculate the binding energy of the deuteron and the magnetic moments >| of the proton and the neutron, he puts these values into his >| calculation right from the start. Same for the mass, charge and >| magnetic moment of the electron.
>No. He doesn't do that. Yes he does: Here is a repost of something I just tried to post.
===========================================================================
>| You have to dig deeper, namely where he derives the two constants he >| calls "undamped magnetic moments of the proton and neutron". In one [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >his >| usual x=x proofs, but still an x=x proof nonetheless.
>You are wrong Mike. I have dug very very deep into this. Not deep enough.
Thanks, you made me have to hunt down that other .gif of his where Tom introduces the deuteron binding energy into the equations to derive the "undamped magnetic moment" variables, from which he pulls out the deuteron binding energy. I found it, it is:
http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/PNSTRONG.gif . Look in the VARIABLES LIST and you'll see him introduce it to define "C", a term of some quadradic. He doesn't even try to hide it; in fact he writes in bold type "We use the known binding [energy?] of the deuteron and quadradic to find Upm and Unm undamped mag moments".
Then he defines C as e^4/(64*pi^2*E0^3*U0*(2.224573E6)^2). The 2.224573E6 term is the deuteron's binding energy in electron volts. (I'll ignore the incorrect units here)
Then he goes off and creates a quadradic with this C as a term (but he flubs some signs) and solves it to get these Upm and Unm values. Now remember the identity I told you about in my last post? Multiply the two roots of a quadradic equation and you get C/A. The way he flubs the sign it's best to consider the unmentioned A term as -1 because of how he writes the term under the square root sign when defining Upm and Unm. This term should be B^2-4*A*C. He writes B^2+4*C. Again because how he writes the quadradic terms he winds up flipping the sign of Upm but the sign of Unm is correct. (remember the denominator is 2*A)
C/A = -C but because he flipped the sign of Upm, the flip and minus cancel out and thus Upm*Unm = C. So whereever you see the roots Upm and Unm multiplied together you can replace them by C, or his definition of C above, which includes the deuteron's binding energy! Now look at http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/pnbind.gif and in the equation where he solves for Bpn, replace the (Up*Un) term with C, or the e^4/(64*pi^2....) definition of C. Voila! lots of terms cancel and we get Bpn = e^2/sqrt(e^4/(2.224573E6)^2) or e^2/(e^2/(2.224573E6)) or ta-da! the 2.224573E6 he introduced at the start. Notice that had he started with 1, pi, e, googol or whatever instead of 2.224573E6 he would have pulled out that very same number instead.
Classic x=x proof. Much more sophisticated than most of his others. I'm surprised you didn't catch it.
FrediFizzx - 16 Jul 2005 00:12 GMT | >[reference line was too long for my server; had to start a new thread] | [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | | Yes he does: Here is a repost of something I just tried to post. ======================================================================== ===
| >| You have to dig deeper, namely where he derives the two constants he | >| calls "undamped magnetic moments of the proton and neutron". In one [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] | pi, e, googol or whatever instead of 2.224573E6 he would have pulled out | that very same number instead. OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net presentation. I believe originally he derived the "adjusted" value of the proton's mag moment from his proton model and used this procedure to get the neutron's "adjusted" mag moment. It turns out that it also gives the same value for the "adjusted" proton mag moment as he originally derived a different way.
But this is really besides the main point here. The fact that he gets very good values on *many many* nuclear binding energies besides just the deuteron using,
e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))
and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion. Nuclear coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I believe. So how can he get good binding energy values using *magnetic coupling*. Somehow this magnetic coupling formula must be a result of pion exchange. ???
FrediFizzx
Y.Porat - 16 Jul 2005 06:13 GMT >
> OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I > see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n)) ------------
what is the heaviest Nuc and Atom that he decoded???!!!
> and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion. yess the geometric structure is a main issue yet how can you know about the geometric structure while the dimensions of the nuc are so small??- is is in contradiction to the HUP!!!!!
----------
Nuclear
> coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I believe. believed ??? i believe that is is done by witches on broomstiks ----------
So how can
> he get good binding energy values using *magnetic coupling*. Somehow > this magnetic coupling formula must be a result of pion exchange. ??? > > FrediFizzx ATB Y.Porat ------------------
FrediFizzx - 16 Jul 2005 20:01 GMT | > | > OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] | | what is the heaviest Nuc and Atom that he decoded???!!! I believe he has done most main nuclei up to and including the Sulfur 32 nucleus. Tom's prediction is ~= 272.07 MeV and the measured BE is ~= 271.78 MeV for Sulfur 32 according to his book.
| > and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion. | | yess the geometric structure is a main issue | yet | how can you know about the geometric structure while the dimensions | of the nuc are so small??- is is in contradiction to the HUP!!!!! No, not necessarily contradicts HUP. If the right answers are obtained, this *can* be a clue that the proposed geometry has something to it. There will certainly be an uncertainty associated with the measured energy values. IOW, the measured value of Sulfur 32's BE will have a range of uncertainy specified along with it. Tom does not quote that and he probably should. Plus I didn't notice a reference as to where he obtained his measured BE's from unless it is from Audi and Wapstra.
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Y.Porat - 17 Jul 2005 05:17 GMT > | > > | > | > But this is really besides the main point here. The fact that he [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > nucleus. Tom's prediction is ~= 272.07 MeV and the measured BE is ~= > 271.78 MeV for Sulfur 32 according to his book. ------------ Hi Fred it seems tha the places that i start to come back from and forget abouthtthem--- *you havent even been there*' ie you dont even understand what i say!!
just have a short look in my site and see how far i was doing:
Ton is computiong th e * overall binding of ther nuc* while what i did not untill Sulphore but all along the periodic table!!-- not the all together sum of it but ecplicit detailes of any bit and peace of it *in any corber of the nuc* do you get it?? it seems that it is far beyond even your dreams !!
it is methaphorically the difference between saying: tis biliding is 100 tall and weight 2000 tons and ...... and describing the building in detaile each srory each appartment and each wall to the last of them morover th ebinding energy not of the whole summ but of any story to the next one the binding ebergy of any wall to the next wall
do you start to understand the historic difference??
if not just have a look at my amatour builder of sites not of nuclear structure.....:
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> | > and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion. > | [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and he probably should. Plus I didn't notice a reference as to where he > obtained his measured BE's from unless it is from Audi and Wapstra. ------------ i was 'pulling a legg' about that HUP preventing geometric knowlwdge!!
ie acting the innocent question actually see my thred: 'does the HUP prevent us fromknowing geometric properties of the nuc' not too long ago i did it to refute the genious from Hedelberg that claimed that my model is dead by arival just because of the HUP./ i whanted other people to realise that this man is a fool. and a crook so now you agree with me that the HUP does not prevent us from knowin geometric properties of the nuc. because you can bypass it and know properties of it even without noting exact distances etc !!! there is a lot to learn and make use of even by knowing it partially not tomention again that indirect knowlwdge and even simple logic can tell us more and i brough the example of the Deutron in which we can know that the proton there is located next to the Neutron, consiquently you get some longish structure of the Deutron!!
*it is very important to realise it because scince will be unjustified paralised!! (on that important issue no one will work on it if 'knowong what Feuerbacher is 'teaching'
ATB Y.Porat --------------
> FrediFizzx > > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf > or postscript > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps p6 - 16 Jul 2005 22:03 GMT > > OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I > > see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Y.Porat > ------------------ Y.Porat.. in more than a decade stay at sci.physics. What have you learnt. What physics textbooks have you finished? I think you don't even know what is the HUP and its details as taught in convensional physics. I suggest you first get familiar with the ins and outs of the convensional concepts before going to examine far out thing. Start with thermodynamics, electrodynamics, classical mechanics, then slowly get into QM, etc. Without doing this. It would be a waste of too much time on yourselves and others examining other models when you are not even thoroughly familiar with the concept as taught. That's why I decided to focus on thermodynamics and electrodynamics first before going to QM and relativistic quantum field theory. Try to do what I said so that in the next 10 years, you could do something fruitful and not just waste time chasing after wild goose. In 5-10 years. I don't want to be like you or other crankpots trapped in their own delusions. That's why I'd spend the next few months mastering convensional concepts and especially the mathemetics. That's the logical option if you want to arrive at the truth. Also I think no crackpots can help me understand the physics of qi. I have to explore and derive the physics of it myself.
So long.
P6
Sam Wormley - 16 Jul 2005 23:36 GMT >>>OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I >>>see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > P6 Another killfile entry!
Y.Porat - 17 Jul 2005 05:31 GMT yu are on the right way to be another PARROT!!
first of all your asumption that i know nothing about the above is wrong!!
2 it is only after knowing some of it that i realised how existing scince is in a dead end and to waht extent it i sa ctually became more like a 'religioon' ie too much involved in *synergetic* [rocess of unsupotted claimes and paradigma. now i promis yopu that once you will folow exatly the conventional root you are syrely falling to the trapp tha tthere is no way out of it sort of a : approaching to close to black hole !! (;-)
3 you must realise that amthematics *canot and should not be * the leader of scince!! it must be first of all and above all the - physics logic and you bett that i shave quit a lot of it!!
not only by being an outsider but knowing 'a bit from inside' and a bit from ouside!! anyway the chice is yourse yet do not say later that i was not warning you about the trapp of the existing scince!! may be anothe alterbnative: do waht you suggest to do but ... always keep in mind what the 'old crackpot' Porat told you !!
ATB Y.Porat --------------------------
Michael Moroney - 17 Jul 2005 03:42 GMT >OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I >see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >gives the same value for the "adjusted" proton mag moment as he >originally derived a different way. Betcha he slips the deuteron's binding energy in there somewhere. Oh something else I should check. He mistakenly inputs the deuteron's BE with dimensionality volts rather than the proper joules, as usual. If we change it so the BE is in proper units, what units will those "adjusted" magnetic moments have?
>But this is really besides the main point here. The fact that he gets >very good values on *many many* nuclear binding energies besides just >the deuteron using,
>e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n)) That constant is just the deuteron binding energy he input at the start!
>and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion. Nuclear >coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I believe. So how can >he get good binding energy values using *magnetic coupling*. Somehow >this magnetic coupling formula must be a result of pion exchange. ??? I haven't looked how he derives the binding energy for anything beyond the deuteron; once I saw this was bogus I figured there was no need. I don't know how much he made available on the web anyway.
However, if we ignore the bogus deuteron proof and consider all the others as being based on the deuteron's binding energy (an input), that *might* be interesting. As long as he doesn't sneak their binding energies in there. It would be a series of ratios of binding energies to the deuteron's BE. However, Tom dismisses the SM's prediction of particle masses as ratios as worthless, perhaps he can dismiss his own predictions as worthless ratios. :-)
Paul Stowe - 17 Jul 2005 04:20 GMT >> OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I >>see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Betcha he slips the deuteron's binding energy in there somewhere. Fine, back it up, show us all! I don't know about others, but I get pretty damn sick & tried of cynics that spout off without the balls to sustantiate their claims! The devil is in the details.
> Oh something else I should check. Yes, you should.
> He mistakenly inputs the deuteron's BE with dimensionality volts rather > than the proper joules, as usual. Post the section that demonstrates that and then, SHOW WHERE!
> If we change it so the BE is in proper units, what units will those > "adjusted" magnetic moments have? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> e^3*c/(8pi*eps0*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n)) Hmmm,
[kg/sec]^3[m/sec]/(kg/m^3][kg-m^2/sec^2]) => [kg^3-m/sec^4]/[kg^2/m-sec^2] => kg-m^2/sec^2
Yup, dimensionally correct for energy...
> That constant is just the deuteron binding energy he input at > the start! Show it... Show this 'start'.
>> and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion. >> Nuclear coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > was no need. I don't know how much he made available on the > web anyway. Did ya'ever think to ask???
> However, if we ignore the bogus deuteron proof and consider all > the others as being based on the deuteron's binding energy (an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the SM's prediction of particle masses as ratios as worthless, > perhaps he can dismiss his own predictions as worthless ratios. :-) And all arrogant cynics are alike :(
Paul Stowe
FrediFizzx - 17 Jul 2005 05:41 GMT | >> OK, I will have to look this up his book when I get home, but I think I | >>see the source of the confusion due to Tom's inadequate 'net [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | get pretty damn sick & tried of cynics that spout off without the | balls to sustantiate their claims! The devil is in the details. Hey Paul, this has been going on for years now between Mike and Tom. ;-) Probably close to 8 years now. The solution would be for Mike to get Tom's book but I think he even turned down a free one. Well, there is plenty of stuff in Tom's book that I don't agree with either (I have all of his books (3) plus helped Tom with re-authoring his DVD to fit on one disc instead of two) but there are a few close or correct predictions that Tom does make that are very difficult to ignore. One being nuclear binding energies all the way from deuteron to Sulfur 32. Even if he does start with deuteron binding energy as a starter, it is still quite an achievement. But as you can see below, his deuteron BE is based on slightly different values for proton and neutron magnetic moments that he does in fact derive independantly. Tom even found an experiment that could be done to check the proton for the corrected mag moment values. And it looks good to me.
Tom, if you are reading this, you need to try harder to get someone to do that experiment. Write a separate article just about it and present it at an APS meeting, etc. I would be happy to proof-read the article for you before you present it.
| > Oh something else I should check. | [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] | | Yup, dimensionally correct for energy... It is even easier to see in the form,
(alpha*e*c)(hbar*c)/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n))
(alpha*e*c)/(2*sqrt(mu_p*mu_n)) = 1/(photon wavelength)
This produces the correct wavelength of the binding energy photon.
| > That constant is just the deuteron binding energy he input at | > the start! | | Show it... Show this 'start'. Since Mike doesn't have the book, he doesn't really know about the rest of the equations that are based on the above expression in order to work out the rest of the binding energies. But as I have shown, the expression above does tell a story. And if we plugin the NMR obtained magnetic moment values for the proton and neutron, the above expression yeilds about 2.9 MeV for the binding energy of deuteron instead of the ~= 2.2 MeV obtained using the values that Tom derived via his proton model. So it only works using Tom's derived values of the "true" proton and neutron magnetic moments.
Well of course, the big thing that has me mystyfied is that this works at all using magnetic coupling for nucleons. The nucleons are supposed to be held together via the strong force (pion exchange) not EM magnetic coupling!
| >> and geometrical configuration should be the main discussion. | >> Nuclear coupling is supposed be mainly by pion exchange I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | Did ya'ever think to ask??? It's pretty involved for putting on the web, but Tom would probably do better with this if he did a short PDF article explaining it better.
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
tnlockyer@aol.com - 18 Jul 2005 18:09 GMT > | On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:42:18 +0000 (UTC), > moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > or postscript > http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps tnlockyer@aol.com - 18 Jul 2005 18:17 GMT For some reason Google just repeated your article before; Try this:
FrediFizzx wrote:
> | On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:42:18 +0000 (UTC), > moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > | >>gives the same value for the "adjusted" proton mag moment as he > | >>originally derived a different way. Mike said;
> | > Betcha he slips the deuteron's binding energy in there somewhere. Paul said;
> | Fine, back it up, show us all! I don't know about others, but I > | get pretty damn sick & tried of cynics that spout off without the > | balls to sustantiate their claims! The devil is in the details. Fredi sez;
> Hey Paul, this has been going on for years now between Mike and Tom. ;-) > Probably close to 8 years now. The solution would be for Mike to get [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > could be done to check the proton for the corrected mag moment values. > And it looks good to me.
> Tom, if you are reading this, you need to try harder to get someone to > do that experiment. Write a separate article just about it and present > it at an APS meeting, etc. I would be happy to proof-read the article > for you before you present it. Tom sez; Just read this article today. I don't like to use my computer in the upstairs bedroom when the temp gets above 78, so only go online in the mornings.
Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists chosen at random.
Image you were they, and you got something in the mail from a stranger. You might glance at it, but as soon as you saw something you thought was WRONG, you might just file it, or, as Bjoern did, throw it away.
I have presented articles to NATURE, SCIENCE etc. to no avail. At my age I don't feel like fighting windmills anymore.
>snip< > | >> But this is really besides the main point here. The fact that he [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > | > | Show it... Show this 'start'. Fredi sez;
> Since Mike doesn't have the book, he doesn't really know about the rest > of the equations that are based on the above expression in order to work [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > model. So it only works using Tom's derived values of the "true" proton > and neutron magnetic moments.
> Well of course, the big thing that has me mystyfied is that this works > at all using magnetic coupling for nucleons. The nucleons are supposed > to be held together via the strong force (pion exchange) not EM magnetic > coupling! Fredi, that old idea does not account for the creation of a photon that exits the nucleous and removes the binding energy, for the mass defect, so that old pion exchange theory is not the correct mechanism.
Creating a photon takes the confluence of BOTH electric and magnetic forces, as QVPP demonstrates. The conjunction of EM forces makes it is possible to create a photon and get the correct values for the bindings between (p-p) (p-n) (n-n) as amply demonstrated (for the first time ever) by QVPP.
> | >> snip<< Mike said;
> | > I haven't looked how he derives the binding energy for anything > | > beyond the deuteron; once I saw this was bogus I figured there > | > was no need. I don't know how much he made available on the > | > web anyway. Paul said;
> | Did ya'ever think to ask???
> It's pretty involved for putting on the web, but Tom would probably do > better with this if he did a short PDF article explaining it better. Yes, I am thinking of doing that, but I only have a knockoff software that I have not tried to use. My oldest daughter (Pat) has the whole suite of photo shop.
(BTW, Pat designed the cover and back cover of the new book. All can see a scan of it on Amazon.com, inside of the 0963154664 book.)
Regards: Tom;
www.amazon.com 0963154664
tnlockyer@aol.com - 18 Jul 2005 18:34 GMT Paul Stowe wrote:
> >Michael Moroney wrote: > >> "FrediFizzx" <fredifi...@hotmail.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about > >QVPP. Paul Said;
> Only if you can explain the forms used. Where for example does the > factor [Sqrt(2)/2]^18 (which BTW is simply [1/Sqrt(2)]^2) come from? Tom said; Paul, good to hear from you. Did I not give you a copy of VPP (1992) book when we attended the same conference in the Gold Country?
Look in the Chapter 8 derivation of the proton magnetic moment, damping
correction etc. The scaling that gets the core particle dimension is shown in Chapter 7.
> How do you get the MMA (0.001153) correction as geometric? You have > defined lamba(e) and not shown basis. In fact, one cannot determine > any validity of this derivation from what you've referenced. If this > cannot be validated it cannot be used to validate anything else. > Foundation is critical. That is based on the correction to tha starting positron's anomalous magnetic moment. See Chapter 1, page 4.
Regards, Tom; www.amazon.com 0963154664
FrediFizzx - 19 Jul 2005 07:50 GMT | For some reason Google just repeated your article before; Try this: | [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] | Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists | chosen at random. In the Hollywood music business, that is called "shotgunning". It rarely works.
| Image you were they, and you got something in the mail from a stranger. | You might glance at it, but as soon as you saw something you thought | was WRONG, you might just file it, or, as Bjoern did, throw it away. Most will throw it away unless you have something that really knocks them out right away.
| I have presented articles to NATURE, SCIENCE etc. to no avail. At my | age I don't feel like fighting windmills anymore. Maybe that should tell you that some adjustments are needed to your models. IMHO, what you think are neutrinos are not. Massless spin zero quantum objects can only be Goldstone bosons. Your electron and positron models are generic fermion models. An electron is a quark that has lost its color charge. Or a quark is an electron that has gained color charge. Now how could that be? Maybe the Goldstone bosons have something to do with that?
But you should be able to think up a slick way to get someone to do the proton mag moment experiment. You make a prediction and have found an experiment that can either prove it or discount it. And I can tell you right now that slammin' the Standard Model ain't going to get it done. You are up against a literal mountain of experimental evidence. I can already see ways in which your concepts are not so contrary. But as it stands right now, you just have way too much in your ideas that are contrary. Especially that a massless spin zero particle could be a neutrino. That ain't never going to fly. The best thing I see that you have going is the concept of magnetic coupling of nucleons.
| >snip< | > | >> But this is really besides the main point here. The fact that he [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] | exits the nucleous and removes the binding energy, for the mass defect, | so that old pion exchange theory is not the correct mechanism. Well, I am trying to find a derivation for it now. We will see. There has to be EM involved with pions also.
| Creating a photon takes the confluence of BOTH electric and magnetic | forces, as QVPP demonstrates. The conjunction of EM forces makes it | is possible to create a photon and get the correct values for the | bindings between (p-p) (p-n) (n-n) as amply demonstrated (for the | first time ever) by QVPP. Are you sure the binding energies have never been derived using the strong force and pion exchange? I find that hard to believe but maybe that is why I am having trouble finding an online derivation. Old Man mentioned a nuclear physics book a couple of weeks ago. Maybe I will have to invest in that book.
| Mike said; | > | > I haven't looked how he derives the binding energy for anything [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] | that I have not tried to use. My oldest daughter (Pat) has the whole | suite of photo shop. It doesn't take photo shop. A word processor will do the trick. If you have MS Word, learn how to use Equation Editor that comes with it if you don't already know. It's easy. Then print it to a postscript file using a dummy postscript printer driver like one of the Apple ones if you want color. Or email me the Word doc. I can make a PDF and a postscript file for you.
| (BTW, Pat designed the cover and back cover of the new book. All can | see a scan of it on Amazon.com, inside of the 0963154664 book.) I guess you forgot that you sent me a book? Yes, very cool modern looking cover.
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Michael Moroney - 19 Jul 2005 16:29 GMT >| Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists >| chosen at random.
>In the Hollywood music business, that is called "shotgunning". It >rarely works.
>| Image you were they, and you got something in the mail from a >stranger. >| You might glance at it, but as soon as you saw something you thought >| was WRONG, you might just file it, or, as Bjoern did, throw it away.
>Most will throw it away unless you have something that really knocks >them out right away. It would be interesting if it were possible to find out, of the DVDs that were looked at, how many were tossed when the viewer recognized an "x=x" proof for what it is vs. how many were tossed when they saw a gross violation of conservation laws without explanation (such as neutrinoless B+ decay) vs. how many were tossed because of too many instances of phrases such as "failed SM model".
tnlockyer@aol.com - 19 Jul 2005 19:46 GMT > | For some reason Google just repeated your article before; Try this: > | > | FrediFizzx wrote:
>snip< > | Fredi, I have recently sent the DVD and letters to about 20 physicists > | chosen at random.
> In the Hollywood music business, that is called "shotgunning". It > rarely works.
>snip<
> | I have presented articles to NATURE, SCIENCE etc. to no avail. At my > | age I don't feel like fighting windmills anymore.
> Maybe that should tell you that some adjustments are needed to your > models. IMHO, what you think are neutrinos are not. Massless spin zero > quantum objects can only be Goldstone bosons. Nope, go back to all of the earlier experiments that tried to get neutrino characteristics.
Everyone of them were based on radioactive series that were EC or B+ decay processes, and these decay processes can now be shown (see QVPP page 14) that the neutrino had to be absorbed, not expelled.
Note that (n-1H) is negative when a neutrino is expelled (B- decay) and positive (EC or B+ decay) when a neutrino is shown to be absorbed in the daughter. Look at those old experiments, they all used the characteristics of the expelled photon, not neutrino. That's what caused their error in conclusions.
>Your electron and > positron models are generic fermion models. An electron is a quark that > has lost its color charge. Or a quark is an electron that has gained > color charge. Now how could that be? Maybe the Goldstone bosons have > something to do with that? Fredi, QVPP builds the whole universe of matter, using electrons and neutrinos. This is true experimentally because electrons and neutrinos are the final decay particles of ANY decay process (with the exception of the stable proton).
Try to explain final decay, electrons and neutrinos using the quark theory, and this should show you that the quark is a false idea.
> But you should be able to think up a slick way to get someone to do the > proton mag moment experiment. You make a prediction and have found an > experiment that can either prove it or discount it. And I can tell you > right now that slammin' the Standard Model ain't going to get it done. > You are up against a literal mountain of experimental evidence. Fredi, yes there is a mountain of data, but it was done to adjust the quark model so it could handle it's own affairs. The results rely on theory to interpret, which pre-supposes the theory is correct. (For example see the Foreword, page x, search for the postulated W boson.)
>I can > already see ways in which your concepts are not so contrary. But as it > stands right now, you just have way too much in your ideas that are > contrary. Especially that a massless spin zero particle could be a > neutrino. That ain't never going to fly. The best thing I see that you > have going is the concept of magnetic coupling of nucleons. Fredi, the popular idea that the neutrino spins is technically wrong.
If the neutrino spun, it would store rest mass energy in the spin.
http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/spinmass.gif
QVPP shows that the neutrino only spins when it's vectors are added to those of the electrons (see page 12 and 13 of QVPP)
Combining electron and neutrino structures give the neutrino their spin, so they can contribute mass to the composites.
The model for the photon can only create electrons and neutrinos as basic particles. All other particles HAVE to be composites of these.
And by adding the decay electron and neutrino to the proton structure, one gets the mass of the neutron.
A QVPP result, is to get (n-1H) from the proton and neutron structures, something the SM has failed to do even after spending millions of man hours and billions of dollars.
> | >snip< > | > | >> But this is really besides the main point here. The fact that [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > defect, > | so that old pion exchange theory is not the correct mechanism.
> Well, I am trying to find a derivation for it now. We will see. There > has to be EM involved with pions also. Never work, Fredi. The trouble is there is nothing to hang your hat on. You have to derive the energy sometime and QVPP does that from first principles.
> | Creating a photon takes the confluence of BOTH electric and magnetic > | forces, as QVPP demonstrates. The conjunction of EM forces makes > it > | is possible to create a photon and get the correct values for the > | bindings between (p-p) (p-n) (n-n) as amply demonstrated (for the > | first time ever) by QVPP.
> Are you sure the binding energies have never been derived using the > strong force and pion exchange? I find that hard to believe but maybe > that is why I am having trouble finding an online derivation. Old Man > mentioned a nuclear physics book a couple of weeks ago. Maybe I will > have to invest in that book. No they have not derived binding energy from the strong force. They gave the NOBEL in 2004 for the asymptotic freedom gig theory for quarks.. Not a claim for obtaining actual binding energy.
There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both atomic and chemical energy,
the former between nucleons and the later between the proton and electron.
And Fredi, I know that the binding energy is dependent of the position of the nucleons, in nuclei, and that the binding energy can thus change , creating or absorbing atomic energy due to the interplay between EM fields that accompany each nucleon.
The idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea. Only the photon particle can mediate forces. Particles don't move unless the photon says so.
Regards, Tom; www.amazon.com 0963154664
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jul 2005 06:21 GMT Hi Tom
[...]
> The model for the photon can only create electrons and neutrinos as > basic particles. All other particles HAVE to be composites of these. Well, you might have the basis of a very powerful source of energy if you can convert Baryons to Leptons. It would make fusion look like a fire- cracker. Is that right? [...]
> There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both > atomic and chemical energy, [...]
> The idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea. Only the > photon particle can mediate forces. Particles don't move unless the > photon says so. > Regards, Tom; www.amazon.com 0963154664 Sounds Reasonable Ken S. Tucker
FrediFizzx - 20 Jul 2005 07:21 GMT | Hi Tom | [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | Leptons. It would make fusion look like a fire- | cracker. Is that right? This is one of the BIG problems with Tom's proton model. It is not stable against decay like the three quark proton model. It should easily decay to all leptons and photons. Tom has no mechanism to hold it together that I have been able to see. Tom?
Note: The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon. There is nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically.
| > There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both | > atomic and chemical energy, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | | Sounds Reasonable First he says "the idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea", then says photons can. I think Tom needs to restate that better. ;-) IMHO, only a medium can "mediate".
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jul 2005 10:52 GMT > | Hi Tom > | [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > easily decay to all leptons and photons. Tom has no mechanism to hold > it together that I have been able to see. Tom? Well Fred, I've done some calculations about how neutrons behave in the center of a n-star and find baryons can convert to leptons. This is validated by gamma ray bursts.
IOW's Baryon's and Lepton's can introconvert (possibly) in extreme circumstances. Tom should specify that and why, how and when, sheesh even I can do that.
> Note: The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing > it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and > also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon. There is > nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically. Yes, if the quark model is true.
> | > There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both > | > atomic and chemical energy, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > then says photons can. I think Tom needs to restate that better. ;-) > IMHO, only a medium can "mediate". hmmm...must think about that, sounds good! Ken
FrediFizzx - 21 Jul 2005 08:08 GMT | > | Hi Tom | > | [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] | Tom should specify that and why, how and when, | sheesh even I can do that. Yo Ken, I am not sure what "introconvert" means. ;-) It really wouldn't be the baryons converting but the quarks making up them would convert to leptons. In our scheme, a reconfiguration of space-time would be necessary for the quark content of baryons to convert to leptons. I suppose not impossible for space-time to be reconfigured with something like a neutron star, black hole or reasonable facsimile.
| > Note: The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing | > it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and | > also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon. There is | > nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically. | | Yes, if the quark model is true. Unfortunately for Tom, there is a literal mountain of evidence in favor of the quark model. But what Tom doesn't realize is that he probably has quarks in his model also. I believe his electron-positron models are just basic fermion models anywise. An electron is just a quark that has lost its color charge.
| > | > There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both | > | > atomic and chemical energy, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | hmmm...must think about that, sounds good! | Ken Yep. Space-time is just a very special medium. It *does* do the mediating.
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
Ken S. Tucker - 21 Jul 2005 14:48 GMT > | > | Hi Tom > | > | [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > suppose not impossible for space-time to be reconfigured with something > like a neutron star, black hole or reasonable facsimile. Fred I presume you are aware of the Pauli Exclusion Principle. In theory, (perhaps conjecture), when enough pressure is applied to a pair of neutrons, such as in the center of a neutron star, the relative relation will force their relative spins to reverse, so that each is a relatively anti-neutron. When an anti-neutron and a neutron combine they do decay ultimately to gamma rays, the gamma ray bursts is evidence of that.
> | > Note: The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is > nothing [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > FrediFizzx Ok, still thinkin' Ken S. Tucker
FrediFizzx - 22 Jul 2005 02:01 GMT | > | > | Hi Tom | > | > | [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] | do decay ultimately to gamma rays, the gamma | ray bursts is evidence of that. Well, I would like to see the math for that. Or a reference.
FrediFizzx
| > | > Note: The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is | > nothing [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] | Ok, still thinkin' | Ken S. Tucker Ken S. Tucker - 22 Jul 2005 03:28 GMT [...]
> | > | Well Fred, I've done some calculations about > | > | how neutrons behave in the center of a n-star [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Well, I would like to see the math for that. Or a reference. > FrediFizzx Sure Fred, see this thread...
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity From: dynam...@vianet.on.ca (Ken S. Tucker) Date: 10 Feb 2003 15:25:35 -0800 Local: Mon,Feb 10 2003 6:25 pm Subject: Neutron star pressure.
Let me know if you have any problems finding it, and then we can discuss it if you like. Ken
tnlockyer@aol.com - 20 Jul 2005 17:21 GMT > | Hi Tom > | [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > easily decay to all leptons and photons. Tom has no mechanism to hold > it together that I have been able to see. Tom? Yes, see page 27. Quote:
The electrostatic forces, between conjugating layers, effectively holds the composite proton and anti-proton stable against decay. Un- quote:
> Note: The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing > it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and > also because it is the lowest energy state for a baryon. There is > nothing for the third quark to pair up with to decay, basically. Huh? I thought the QCD proton had both kinds (up, down) and they think that the quark proton can decay into a quark neutron via the crackpot W+.
It can't, we know experimentally that the proton only converts to a neutron in certain unstable nuclei by electron capture. The electron can come from the K shell or from pair production (when a positron is expelled from the pair).
> | > There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both > | > atomic and chemical energy, > | [...] Ken said;
> | > The idea that particles mediate forces is a false idea. Only the > | > photon particle can mediate forces. Particles don't move unless the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > then says photons can. I think Tom needs to restate that better. ;-) > IMHO, only a medium can "mediate". What I meant to say was;
The idea that the pion or W or Higgs can mediate forces is a false idea. Only the
> | > photon particle can mediate forces. Particles don't move unless the > | > photon says so. Regards; Tom.
FrediFizzx - 21 Jul 2005 02:27 GMT | > | Hi Tom | > | [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] | the composite proton and anti-proton stable against decay. Un- | quote: Yeah, but we know that is only ~= 5% of the mass of the proton. I don't think it is enough to hold your model of the proton against immediate decay.
| > Note: The mechanism for the three quark model is that there is nothing | > it can decay to since you would have to have an odd man (quark) out and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | that the quark proton can decay into a quark neutron via the crackpot | W+. Yes the proton is made up of up and down quarks. Even with that, there is no scheme that I can think of that allows them to pair up as mesons so that they could decay. A free proton can't decay. However a bound proton can change to a neutron not "decay" to a neutron. Only a free neutron can decay to a proton.
| It can't, we know experimentally that the proton only converts to a | neutron in certain unstable nuclei by electron capture. The electron | can come from the K shell or from pair production (when a positron is | expelled from the pair). If you try to "gently" force two protons together, one will change to a neutron because an up quark changes to a down quark in one of the bound protons.
| > | > There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both | > | > atomic and chemical energy, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] | > | > photon particle can mediate forces. Particles don't move unless the | > | > photon says so. I don't see much difference between a photon, pion or W from our viewpoint of a relativistic medium. The photon is long range and the others aren't because they have mass. They all can be modeled as composites of virtual fermion pairs.
FrediFizzx
tnlockyer@aol.com - 21 Jul 2005 18:13 GMT >snip< > | > | Well, you might have the basis of a very powerful [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > | the composite proton and anti-proton stable against decay. Un- > | quote:
> Yeah, but we know that is only ~= 5% of the mass of the proton. I don't > think it is enough to hold your model of the proton against immediate > decay. Fredi, it is an experimental fact that the only stable composite particles in the universe are the proton and neutron ( the neutron is only stable in certain stable nuclei, otherwise the neutron decays in about 15 minutes, into an electron, proton and electron type neutrino).
QVPP builds both proton and neutron from electrons and or positron in combination with the electron type neutrinos. (Just like experiment suggests, in the neutron decay.)
See page 13, and note that the QVPP electron type neutrino causes charge conjugation, when vectors are added to the electron or positron, member by member, thus developing the electrostatic forces between nested neutrinos.
Calculate the electrostatic force between those close spaced conjugating layers. The force is enormous, making the proton very stable against decay.
>snip> Tom said;
> | It can't, we know experimentally that the proton only converts to a > | neutron in certain unstable nuclei by electron capture. The electron > | can come from the K shell or from pair production (when a positron is > | expelled from the pair). Fredi sez.
> Yes the proton is made up of up and down quarks. Even with that, there > is no scheme that I can think of that allows them to pair up as mesons > so that they could decay. A free proton can't decay. However a bound > proton can change to a neutron not "decay" to a neutron. Only a free > neutron can decay to a proton. I agree with every thing you say, except that the proton is made up of quarks. This presupposes that the QCD theory is correct.
Fredi, the quark model has died for lack of progress. Why do you suppose that the string theory is being worked on as the next great hope of particle physics?
> If you try to "gently" force two protons together, one will change > to a neutron because an up quark changes to a down quark in one of the > bound protons. Huh? I am reasonably sure that the proton cannot change another proton into a neutron. To change a proton into a neutron, the proton has to capture an electron and (n-1H) energy to complete the neutron's structure. Quark theory can't do that by any stretch of the imagination.
>snip< > | > First he says "the idea that particles mediate forces is a false [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the > | > | > photon says so.
> I don't see much difference between a photon, pion or W from our > viewpoint of a relativistic medium. The photon is long range and the > others aren't because they have mass. They all can be modeled as > composites of virtual fermion pairs. The problem I see with particle physics is that theorists invent any particle they want to and then endow it with the properties they imagine it should have to do make their theory work. (Playing god?)
Note with QVPP the boundary condition on the types of basic particles nature has, is automatically given to us by simply combining the photon in ALL possible ways. One doesn't have to play god, just go with what the QVPP photon automatically shows.
If SM theorists propose some new particle, or quark or massive boson, or tau neutrino, etc, they must show how their proposed particles are constructed, otherwise, in my view, they are writing checks that nature can't cash.
QVPP is the only theory that automatically establishes it's own boundary conditions, clearly limiting basic particles to just the electron-positron pair , electron type neutrino and muon type neutrino pair. As shown it the book, one can structure all other composite particles, from those lepton's vector structures.
Regards: Tom;
www.amazon.com 0963154664
tnlockyer@aol.com - 20 Jul 2005 17:05 GMT > Hi Tom > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cracker. Is that right? > [...] Ken, The QVPP proton is very stable because there is a charge conjugation created between nested neutrinos in it's structure. The resulting electric potential energy between nested neutrinos adds about 5 percent to the proton mass and holds the proton stable against decay.
Fusion energy is the new binding energy created when nucleons rearrange their null patterns, with each other. QVPP does show how these processes occur. It's in the book.
> > There has to be a photon created. A photon is the source of both > > atomic and chemical energy, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Sounds Reasonable > Ken S. Tucker THanks: Regards: Tom:
Ken S. Tucker - 20 Jul 2005 21:16 GMT > > Hi Tom > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > THanks: Regards: Tom: I'm very curious if you find Baryon conservation to be a "Law", for example we've done some calculations indicating that under sufficent pressure (center of a neutron star), baryons (like neutrons), can decay ultimately to gamma rays. I was hoping to hear your opinion about that based on QVPP. Regards Ken
PS I'm looking foward to studying your book this fall or winter when I can go "full time" as a student.
tnlockyer@aol.com - 16 Jul 2005 17:00 GMT > >| You have to dig deeper, namely where he derives the two constants he > >| calls "undamped magnetic moments of the proton and neutron". In one [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Not deep enough. Tom writes; Mike, that is my complaint about you. You look at isolated results and judge that it is trivial. When you can't find a technical error in the results, you claim x=x.
> Thanks, you made me have to hunt down that other .gif of his where > Tom introduces the deuteron binding energy into the equations to derive > the "undamped magnetic moment" variables, from which he pulls out the > deuteron binding energy. I found it, it is:
> http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/PNSTRONG.gif . Look in the VARIABLES LIST > and you'll see him introduce it to define "C", a term of some quadradic. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Classic x=x proof. Much more sophisticated than most of his others. > I'm surprised you didn't catch it. Mike,. The deuteron is simply a binding between a single proton and single neutron and was used to show QVPP was giving the correct value for the un-damped proton magnetic moment, and was using the correct approach in calculating binding energy..
Here is the QVPP un-damped magnetic moment derivation, and the proof that there is a damping loss in the published nuclear magnetic resonance method.
http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/undampedcorrection.gif
You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about QVPP.
I begged you to get a copy of my books and you as much as said (sight unseen) that they were a waste of paper. You have not studied my methods so have NOT earned the right to comment as an authority.
Tom;
www.amazon.com 0963154664
Michael Moroney - 17 Jul 2005 04:22 GMT >> >You are wrong Mike. I have dug very very deep into this. >> >> Not deep enough.
>Tom writes; >Mike, that is my complaint about you. You look at isolated results and >judge that it is trivial. When you can't find a technical error in the > results, you claim x=x. No, I didn't look at "isolated results". I looked at your so-called proof and saw how you did put the deuteron binding energy in at the start and pulled it out again. I just pointed that out.
Don't believe me? Do the exact same math and the exact same proof but with one small change. Input the binding energy of He-4 or Pu-239 or something instead of that of the deuteron at the start and see what you come up with.
>> Classic x=x proof. Much more sophisticated than most of his others. >> I'm surprised you didn't catch it.
>Mike,. The deuteron is simply a binding between a single proton and <snip>
You just regurgitated the same claims without addressing my analysis of your math.
>Here is the QVPP un-damped magnetic moment derivation, and the proof >that there is a damping loss in the published nuclear magnetic >resonance method.
>http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/undampedcorrection.gif That's nice. Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.
>You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about >QVPP. You gotta be kidding me! I point out your sleight of hand and you think I should apologize for doing so?!?!
> I begged you to get a copy of my books and you as much as said (sight >unseen) that they were a waste of paper. I said it would be a waste of my money. For $25 or whatever, I'd rather buy a toy for my daughter. I WILL look at it if I spot it in a library or whatever.
> You have not studied my >methods so have NOT earned the right to comment as an authority. I don't have to be an authority to point out algebraic irregularities (that is, "x=x" proofs).
tnlockyer@aol.com - 17 Jul 2005 16:46 GMT > >> >You are wrong Mike. I have dug very very deep into this. > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >judge that it is trivial. When you can't find a technical error in the > > results, you claim x=x.
> No, I didn't look at "isolated results". I looked at your so-called > proof and saw how you did put the deuteron binding energy in at the > start and pulled it out again. I just pointed that out. You did not realize that using the deuteron was to test the NEW idea that the strong force was due to the near field magnetic forces exceeding the electric forces in the near field, between nucleons.
Using the nucleon magnetic moments in the NEW binding energy equation explains how proton binds to proton, proton binds to neutron., and neutron binds to neutron in nuclei.
> >> Classic x=x proof. Much more sophisticated than most of his others. > >> I'm surprised you didn't catch it.
> >Mike,. The deuteron is simply a binding between a single proton and > <snip> > > You just regurgitated the same claims without addressing my analysis > of your math. What you snipped was the crux of the reason for using the deuteron . As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was electromagnetic in origin, and that QVPP new magnetic moment for the proton was correct. IT WAS.
> >Here is the QVPP un-damped magnetic moment derivation, and the proof > >that there is a damping loss in the published nuclear magnetic > >resonance method.
> >http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/undampedcorrection.gif
> That's nice. Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy > without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed. Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS. Damn, QVPP is the correct model for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should impress.
Proof of the pudding is that the QVPP methods correctly structured the proton to give the correct (un-damped) proton magnetic moment, as proved by the deuteron binding energy calculations, which you nicely verified as correct.
Nice things about QVPP is that it is a coherent theory, accept any of its results, you must accept ALL of the postulates and resulting structures leading up to that result.
So, the fact that the QVPP proton gets the previously unknown value for the proton's magnetic moment,
must now be accepted, as you nicely pointed out in what you thought was just x=x. It is much more, it is the final proof that QVPP and all it's postulates ARE CORRECT.
> >You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about > >QVPP.
> You gotta be kidding me! I point out your sleight of hand and you think I > should apologize for doing so?!?! You completely misjudged the purpose of the deuteron binding energy calculation. The deuteron was simply used to derive a value for the binding magnetic moments between nucleons (in the year 2000) and to test the brand new binding energy equation, by using near field magnetic moments, that were derived (in 1992).
The results showed that the values derived (in the year 1992) for the un-damped magnetic moments, were correct.
Thus QVPP and all it's postulates prove to be correct, because QVPP postulates build on each other. The ends justify the means.
Tom;
www.amazon.com 0963154664
Michael Moroney - 18 Jul 2005 19:32 GMT >> >Mike, that is my complaint about you. You look at isolated results and >> >judge that it is trivial. When you can't find a technical error in the >> > results, you claim x=x.
>> No, I didn't look at "isolated results". I looked at your so-called >> proof and saw how you did put the deuteron binding energy in at the >> start and pulled it out again. I just pointed that out.
>You did not realize that using the deuteron was to test the NEW idea >that the strong force was due to the near field magnetic forces >exceeding the electric forces in the near field, between nucleons. No, using the deuteron was to introduce its binding energy into the equation so that you could pull it back out again.
>> >> Classic x=x proof. Much more sophisticated than most of his others. >> >> I'm surprised you didn't catch it.
>> >Mike,. The deuteron is simply a binding between a single proton and >> <snip> >> >> You just regurgitated the same claims without addressing my analysis >> of your math.
>What you snipped was the crux of the reason for using the deuteron . You really really don't get it, do you? All you did was come up with a complicated way of saying "Given that the deuteron's binding energy is 2.225 MeV, I will show that the deuteron's binding energy is 2.225 MeV!" It is a version of the very old parlor game "Guess the number I'm thinking of". It goes something like this for your so-called proof:
"Think of a number, from negative infinity to infinity." (2.22573*10^6) "Don't tell me that number, but square it, multiply it by 64, then multiply it by pi squared...." ... "Solve for the two roots of that quadradic and tell me (1.79254*10^-26 and the two roots. Give them nice names, Upm and Unm." 1.34817*10^-26)
"Now I'll multiply these numbers together and by 64 and by pi squared and epsilon-naught cubed and by mu-naught. Now I'll take the square root, divide e^2 by the result, was the number you were thinking of, umm, 2.22573*10^6? (Yes!)
Now try your parlor game with some other number. Note that for many cases the two roots will be complex numbers, but their product will be real.
Oh, if I correct your units so the deuteron's binding energy has the proper units of energy, "C" will have units of meters^4, and in the quadradic, adding the square of the sum of two magnetic moments would be mixing units in addition, which, of course, is wrong. Not that it matters much, since the "B" terms of the quadradic cancel out (remember the products of the two roots of any quadradic is C/A) so you can pick anything you want for the "B" term so long as it has units of area. It turns out that dimensionality goes through your algebraic meat grinder intact (as long as you choose "B" with proper dimensionality each time) so that fact you put volts in as input and get volts out works, and if you put energy in as input and you get energy out also works doesn't mean anything. Remember, x=x works for units, too.
>As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was >electromagnetic in origin, and that QVPP new magnetic moment for the >proton was correct. IT WAS. You proved nothing, other than 2.224573*10^6 = 2.224573*10^6.
>> That's nice. Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy >> without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed. >Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS. Damn, QVPP is the correct model >for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should >impress. Well, all those x=x proofs of yours are going to impress nobody.
> must now be accepted, as you nicely pointed out in what you thought >was just x=x. It is much more, it is the final proof that QVPP and >all it's postulates ARE CORRECT. Well "x=x" proofs being 'correct' means nothing. Here's an earthshaking equation: 5=5. It's absolutely correct. But it reveals absolutely nothing of any use. So many of your so-called proofs are just as useless if you simply bother to simplify the algebra, which you never do. How about this proof: Pi = C/SS. C is the circumference of a circle whose diameter is your shoe size, and SS is your shoe size. Amazing! I just calculated pi in terms of your shoe size, and I didn't even have to know your shoe size to do so!
>> >You owe me an apology for giving everyone the wrong impression about >> >QVPP.
>> You gotta be kidding me! I point out your sleight of hand and you think I >> should apologize for doing so?!?!
>You completely misjudged the purpose of the deuteron binding energy >calculation. The deuteron was simply used to derive a value for the I misjudged nothing. I just showed you your so-called proof is a parlor game where you plug in a number and get the same number back. An x=x proof.
Autymn D. C. - 19 Jul 2005 03:29 GMT quadratic That's not a quadratic.
Michael Moroney - 19 Jul 2005 04:49 GMT >quadratic >That's not a quadratic. I left out several steps. See the .gif Tom made available for the gory details.
tnlockyer@aol.com - 19 Jul 2005 17:54 GMT > >> >Mike, that is my complaint about you. You look at isolated results and > >> >judge that it is trivial. When you can't find a technical error in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >that the strong force was due to the near field magnetic forces > >exceeding the electric forces in the near field, between nucleons.
> No, using the deuteron was to introduce its binding energy into the > equation so that you could pull it back out again. Mike, you never cease to amaze me, are you really that dense that you cannot see the purpose of the exercise, with the deuteron binding energy, was to verify the QVPP un-damped magnetic moments for the proton and neutron,
and to test the theory that the binding energy was due to the new field magnetic moments of the nucleons.
It was thus proved that QVPP had the correct magnetic moments, and indeed, the strong force is due to the near field magnetic moments.
Both un-damped magnetic moments and the near field magnetic moment strong force, are brand new results that physics missed over the last 100 years.
Accept this, or spend another 100 years trying to make existing bankrupt physics theories get tangible results.
The QVPP binding energy teachings not only allow calculating binding energy of complex nuclei,
but show the details of why certain nuclei have isomeric states,
why certain nuclei beta decay and convert to other isotopes,
how certain isotopes disintegrate by gamma rays, slow neutrons and slow protons, and the exact nature of atomic energy processes.
It's all in the book you refuse to buy.
>snip< > >As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >> That's nice. Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy > >> without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.
> >Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS. Damn, QVPP is the correct model > >for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should > >impress. OK, here are some results of QVPP deuteron binding energy equation.
http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/QVPdeuteronbind.jpg
Note that Bpn1 is the deuteron using the quadratic derived values for proton magnetic moment Upmx of 1.79253796637 E-16 (A.m^2) and neutron 1.34816770377 E-26 (A.m^2).
And that: Bpn uses QVPP values of Upm=1.81045733 E-26 (A.m^2) and Unm=1.366087172 E-26 (A.m^2) derived from the QVPP geometric scaling to the proton and neutron structures.
Then I show that IF the measured binding energy of the deuteron was off by 13.6 ppm the measurement would have gotten the QVPP value of 2.198970812 E6 MeV. In equivalent volts, using QVPP values for the un-damped magnetic moments.
So, in the new QVPP book, I use the QVPP values for the un-damped magnetic moments EXCLUSIVELY for calculating binding energy, with good results. You have already seen some examples, from the book you refuse to buy, here is one;
http://members.aol.com/tnlockyer/Page69.gif
>snip< Regards: Tom;
www,amazon.com 0963154664
Michael Moroney - 20 Jul 2005 16:29 GMT >>snip< >> >As noted above it was to PROVE that the strong force was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> That's nice. Show me a derivation of the deuteron's binding energy >> >> without plugging it in at the start and I might be impressed.
>> >Mike, it is not my purpose to IMPRESS. Damn, QVPP is the correct model >> >for the structures of energy and matter, and that is what should >> >impress.
>OK, here are some results of QVPP deuteron binding energy equation.
>http://members.aol.com/thomasl283/QVPdeuteronbind.jpg
> Note that Bpn1 is the deuteron using the quadratic derived values for >proton magnetic mo |
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