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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Particle Physics / October 2005



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PHYSICS LETTERS PAPER ON SUBQUARKS (3 subquarks = 1 quark, possible?)

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adron - 13 Oct 2005 14:48 GMT
http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9
or
http://www.pbase.com/pegasdvd/image/50672151/original

(Use "enlarge" to magnify the image)

Published in Physics Letters Vol 84B, no. 1 .

In the paper shared above (written by Dr. Philips with Ph.D.
in particle physics),  the author proposed that quarks are not
discrete, fundamental objects but, instead, are composite,
tightly knit clusters of three particles called "omegon".
Protons and neutrons, which are each made up of three quarks, therefore
contain nine omegons. These basic hadrons have
ten different flavours, and each determines its own type of
quarks...

continued in

http://www.pbase.com/pegasdvd/image/50672151/original
or
http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9

(Use "enlarge" to magnify the image)

What do you think of it? For fellow QCD Ph.D.s or particle
enthusiasts. Do you see any problem with it?

adron

P.S. Does anyone know of any free PDF hosting site aside from
Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one
(with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it.
Igor - 13 Oct 2005 16:46 GMT
> http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9
> or
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one
> (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it.

This is not exactly a new idea.  The concept of quarks (and leptons)
being made up of even smaller particles has been around for a while.
The most interesting model was one proposed a couple of decades ago
called Technicolor.  The main problem is that there would have to be a
very strong binding force that holds these things together.  AFAIK,
nothing has ever come from these theories.
Puppet_Sock - 13 Oct 2005 17:13 GMT
[snip]
> This is not exactly a new idea.  The concept of quarks (and leptons)
> being made up of even smaller particles has been around for a while.
> The most interesting model was one proposed a couple of decades ago
> called Technicolor.  The main problem is that there would have to be a
> very strong binding force that holds these things together.  AFAIK,
> nothing has ever come from these theories.

Yes, exactly. That and so far no clear experimental signal for
such components existing. There was a brief flurry of activity
a few years ago when it looked like deep inelastic scattering
data pointed at such. That has not seemed to go anywhere. Also,
what happened to neutrino oscilations? That would seem to require
some sort of composite model for at least neutrinos.

The buzz word for this topic is prion, which is a common term for
supposed components of quarks.
Socks
adron - 13 Oct 2005 17:35 GMT
> [snip]
> > This is not exactly a new idea.  The concept of quarks (and leptons)
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> supposed components of quarks.
> Socks

Actually, the paper was written in 1979 :)

I just don't know what to make of it all these years because
QCD math is not exactly easy. I was just asking if anything is
wrong with it after 26 years of experimental data. Does it
still tally or go against any of the finding in the Particle
Data Group (that paper specifically)?

If one of you QCD specialists, have time, pls. take a look at
the paper by Dr. Philips. He talked about the subquarks
being magnetic monopoles linked by some kind of fluxes.
Jay Yablon if you are able to read this, pls. kindly evaluate
it and let me know what you think. It's Yablon magnetic
monopole stuff that made me remember this paper written by
Dr. Philips and want some comments from killer QCD gurus. Have
anyone seen Bjoern? Is he ok or Heymannized?

adron
Jay R. Yablon - 13 Oct 2005 20:59 GMT
Hi Adron,

I know that Bjoern started a university teaching position last month as well
as moved, so he may have his hands full with other things.

I actually think all of the elementary fermions contain two internal
symmetries: one is the STRONG leptoquark symmetry which gives a fermion one
of three colors or a lepton number; the other is WEAK isospin symmetry which
makes a fermion either isospin up or isospin down.  This is the most elegant
way to account for the "redundancy" wherein both quark and leptons have weak
isospin.  That is, I believe the isospin redundancy is a very direct
indicator that the internal symmetries of the elementary fermions are
leptoquark color, and isospin up and down.  WEAK isospin is a redundancy of
STRONG leptoquark symmetry; while the STRONG symmetry of leptons and quarks
at high energy is a redundancy of WEAK isospin and this is where weak and
strong interactions end up being joined at the hip with a WEAK isospin and a
STRONG leptoquark "preon."  Look at section 12.2 in Volovik for details; I
agree with everything there, except for the holon / spinon stuff which, back
in my days at M.I.T., we used to call a "kludge" (maybe they still do, some
things at the 'tute don't change.)  The holon / spinon stuff is an
inelegant, and, I believe, merely interim way of dealing with the spins
pending something more compelling.

Spin, of course, is a symmetry emanating from spacetime, as opposed to the
internal symmetries that arise from the generators of Yang Mills / Lie
algebras.  The additional degrees of freedom that come about from having
magnetic-type charges in addition to electric-type charges actually allow us
to use everything in Volovik section 12.2 regarding internal symmetry, and
also to give spin 1/2 to each of the holons and the spinons, and to have the
composite particle that they form ALSO be spin 1/2.  That is, we all learned
that 1+1 = 2, but here, we can actually arrive at 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/2.  I spent
over 20 years trying to figure out how to do this once I realized that the
weak isospin redundancy lends itself to a preonic decomposition of the
fermion, and now I have found that the magnetic monopoles are the key to
this and in particular the chiral connections in
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223 are the starting point for this
development.

I will develop this in detail in a future paper, but this funny 1/2 + 1/2 =
1/2 arithmetic actually has it basis in the Weyl representation of the Dirac
equation.  Briefly, as is well-know, one can "add" a left-handed massless
spin 1/2 fermion f_L to a right handed massless spin 1/2 fermion f_R to
still arrive at a spin massive 1/2 massive f = f_L _ f_R, and insofar as the
spins go, we have applied 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/2 due to the unique algebraic
characteristics of the Dirac matrices which I regard as the "generators" of
spacetime symmetry much as, for example, the Pauli matrices are the
generators of SU(2) internal symmetry of the Gell Mann matrices are the
generators of SU(3).  (This also leads me to the view that the Dirac gamma-5
is a direct indicator of a fifth, timelike, axial spacetime dimension and
that time is therefore a plane not a line and that the observed mass of a
particle depends on how it travels through the time plane relative to how we
travel through the time plane, and that Feynman's discovery that particles
can travel "backward" through time -- essentially defining an
antiparticle -- should be extended to particles being able to travel
sideways through time (for a massless particle) or at an "angle" through
time (for a massive particle), but that too, is another full paper.)

As it turns out, the findings in http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0508257 and
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223 regarding magnetic monopoles, once
applied to weak and strong interactions, allows the Fermions to be composed
out of Volovik's holons and spinons, but also allow each of these to have
spin 1/2 because of the 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/2 arithmetic of the Dirac matrices
based on the connection between chirality and magnetic monopoles developed
in http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223.  This all takes place through an
elegant mathematical conspiracy involving all of a) weak isospin and strong
leptoquark internal symmetry, b) the (broken) duality symmetry of electric
and magnetic charges, and the c) chiral properties of Dirac's gamma
matrices.

And somewhere in the middle of all this, though have not yet nailed it in
detail, is, I believe, a resolution to the Fermion mass problem, that is,
the question of why the fermions have the masses they have.

Jay.

Signature

_____________________________
Jay R. Yablon
910 Northumberland Drive
Schenectady, New York 12309-2814
Phone / Fax: 518-377-6737
Email: jyablon@nycap.rr.com

>
>> [snip]
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> adron
adron - 14 Oct 2005 00:43 GMT
> Hi Adron,
>
> I know that Bjoern started a university teaching position last month as well
> as moved, so he may have his hands full with other things.

Too bad. The genius from Heidenberg doesn't have any DVD or CD player.
When he moved, he may have part with his computer as well. Should
have posted the paper a few months ago.

> I actually think all of the elementary fermions contain two internal
> symmetries: one is the STRONG leptoquark symmetry which gives a fermion one
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223 are the starting point for this
> development.

I'm comparing your work and that of Dr. Philips to see the similarity
and difference. You both claim the quarks have magnetic monopole
qualities which seem to be inherent.. although he went one step
further and state how 3 subquarks or sub magnetic monopole could
be behind it all. Well. I'm looking for a flaw in his paper, remember
he published it in 1979. Maybe your stuff is the more updated one.
I wonder what would happen if you extend your model to 3 subquark
or sub monopole system, would it still be valid? I'm still analyzing
your stuff. Thanks.

Adron

> I will develop this in detail in a future paper, but this funny 1/2 + 1/2 =
> 1/2 arithmetic actually has it basis in the Weyl representation of the Dirac
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> >
> > adron
FrediFizzx - 14 Oct 2005 02:45 GMT
| > Hi Adron,
| >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| When he moved, he may have part with his computer as well. Should
| have posted the paper a few months ago.

Is that you James?  Or is it Epsilon or p6?  ;-)  Why do you keep
changing your handle?

Clearly you have not read Jay's first paper yet at,

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0508257 .

As you would have seen the acknowledgment that Jay gave to Bjoern for
his excellent help with it and realize that they are "in communication"
with each other.

You should read and study the paper.  It is very good work that Jay and
Bjoern did, IMHO.  I am sure that Jay would be happy to answer any
specific questions or comments you might have about it.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Jay R. Yablon - 22 Oct 2005 04:09 GMT
> I'm comparing your work and that of Dr. Philips to see the similarity
> and difference. You both claim the quarks have magnetic monopole
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Adron

Any further thoughts, Adron?

Jay.
adron - 22 Oct 2005 05:31 GMT
> > I'm comparing your work and that of Dr. Philips to see the similarity
> > and difference. You both claim the quarks have magnetic monopole
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Jay.

Interesting but we need solid evidence of it. I guess
I'll just wait for results rather than engaging in highly
speculative discussions.

Sometimes I thought of Seto, Tomgee, etc. and the
many years (average of a decade) they wasted time
speculating and imagining. In those years. They could
become brain surgeons or other professionals.

Are you a physics student? I guess only physics students
must tackle the causal mechanisms of things because
they are equipped with the right tools that Seto, Tomgee
don't have.

Because I'm not a physics student. I think I'll get to other
matters of more relevance to life. In months ahead. I'll
focus on neurobiology and stem cell biology. Maybe
next year when Eotvos shows a non-null or the Super
Hadron Collider is finished. I could go back to physics.

Goodluck to your papers. Hope you can get them published
in journals for quick scrutiny and experimental testing and
validation.. which is all that matters in physics. It is results
that is the aim of all hypothetical models.

adron
Jay R. Yablon - 15 Oct 2005 17:49 GMT
If you want to see a preview with more detail about my work on the timelike,
fifth, axial dimension of spacetime as alluded to below, please take a look
at my web site at http://home.nycap.rr.com/jry/FermionMass.htm, where I am
starting to post previews of work that I hope to publish in the upcoming
months.

I have begun by posting a "Paper Preview: Five Dimensional Spacetime with
Axial Time, and the Geometric Origin of Mass."

This paper will show how if we regard the Dirac Matrices ?^U, U=0,1,2,3,5 as
the structure generators of spacetime, that the ?^5 matrix becomes naturally
associated with a fifth, timelike dimension of spacetime.  This fifth, axial
time dimension, together with the ordinary time dimension, defines a "time
plane."  This requires us to understand time as a plane through which
particles can move at an "angle," and not merely as a line allowing forward
and backward movement as first taught by Feynman.  Importantly, the mass of
a particle is understood to bear a relationship to how that particle moves
through the time plane, relatively to how we, as observers, move through the
time plane.  The more a particle's motion through the time plane parallels
our own, the larger is the mass we observe for that particle.  Massless
particles move through the time plane perpendicularly to how we, as
observers, move through the time plane.  In this way, one may be able to
arrive at a strictly geometric understanding of gravitational mass.
_____________________________
Jay R. Yablon
Email: jyablon@nycap.rr.com

>(This also leads me to the view that the Dirac gamma-5 is a direct
>indicator of a fifth, timelike, axial spacetime dimension and that time is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>(for a massless particle) or at an "angle" through time (for a massive
>particle), but that too, is another full paper.)
h.poropudas@luukku.com - 17 Oct 2005 09:38 GMT
> If you want to see a preview with more detail about my work on the timelike,
> fifth, axial dimension of spacetime as alluded to below, please take a look
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> observers, move through the time plane.  In this way, one may be able to
> arrive at a strictly geometric understanding of gravitational mass.

H-M's explanation origin electron's mass (this is different
than our mass definition in Physics):

"electron's mass is only due expansion resistance of the Universe"

(in contracting part of the Universe mass is only due contraction
resistance of the Universe)

Please take a look my summaries about H-M's drawings and explanations
Readme.all, Readme.mid, Readme.see (ASCII-text summaries)

I have understood from these that mass is property that blocks those
color
electricity colors (changes them to black color = no color
electricity).

I don't know at present how to apply H-M's definition to calculate
masses
of elementary particles. One application was H-M's explanation of quark
content of the proton (five quarks and one of them is changed to black
color
electricity color due proton's mass).

Hannu

> _____________________________
> Jay R. Yablon
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >(for a massless particle) or at an "angle" through time (for a massive
> >particle), but that too, is another full paper.)
Dr Photon - 25 Oct 2005 17:17 GMT
>Importantly, the mass of
>a particle is understood to bear a relationship to how that particle moves
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>particles move through the time plane perpendicularly to how we, as
>observers, move through the time plane.

Hi Jay,

>From your previous post you also wrote
"And somewhere in the middle of all this, though have not yet nailed it
in detail, is, I believe, a resolution to the Fermion mass problem,
that is, the question of why the fermions have the masses they have. "
so I presume you don't just mean relativistic mass due to ordinary
velocity, but also the rest masses of the particles due to some
"sideways" velocity.

So the question I have is what is "we" referring to in the above
paragraph? How can the particles we are composed of be different to the
"we" that is observing them, or what exactly are you getting at here?
What is an observer in your system?

regards,

br
h.poropudas@luukku.com - 15 Oct 2005 10:03 GMT
> http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9
> or
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> What do you think of it? For fellow QCD Ph.D.s or particle
> enthusiasts. Do you see any problem with it?

H-M's drawing about proton and neutron contains five quarks !!!

In my summaries Readme.all, Readme.mid, Readme.see there is also nice
H-M's explanation (methaphora about colored stick men) about isospin
invariance (?) of proton and neutron (explanation why proton and
neutron resembles each others !!!)

Please take a look from the ftp address mentioned my earlier recent
writings in sci-groups.

> adron
>
> P.S. Does anyone know of any free PDF hosting site aside from
> Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one
> (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it.
FrediFizzx - 15 Oct 2005 20:28 GMT
[snip]
| adron
|
| P.S. Does anyone know of any free PDF hosting site aside from
| Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one
| (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it.

Doesn't your ISP give you some free website space?  Most do.  What is it
about?  You can email it to me if you wish if it is about physics.

FrediFizzx

http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf
or postscript
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps

http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Golden Boar - 25 Oct 2005 14:13 GMT
> http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9
> or
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one
> (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it.

This sounds a bit like something I was discussing a while back in the
thread "Introducing Chromotron, the leptoquark!".
hanson - 25 Oct 2005 15:34 GMT
>> Published in Physics Letters Vol 84B, no. 1 .
>>.... the author proposed that quarks are not discrete,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9
>> Do you see any problem with it?

[Golden]
> This sounds a bit like something I was discussing a while back in the
> thread "Introducing Chromotron, the leptoquark!".

[hanson]
That particle subdivision may go much much further, if self-similarity is
projected to hold... for such a case can be made based on the
correlations that the Planck mass consists of 1 mole = ~6E+23 electron
masses, as does the H-radius measure 1 mole of Planck length units,
and the atomic time tau being 1 mole of Planck time units... so, 3 quarks
may be just the beginning of looking deeper into the matter of things:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/0f1a7daa49aa8cf3
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/70e4aba63b7351ba
hanson
dishington - 25 Oct 2005 22:53 GMT
Check;

       http://www.lafn.org/~bd261                 Note 1, etc.

                                  Roland Dishington
 
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