PHYSICS LETTERS PAPER ON SUBQUARKS (3 subquarks = 1 quark, possible?)
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adron - 13 Oct 2005 14:48 GMT http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9 or http://www.pbase.com/pegasdvd/image/50672151/original
(Use "enlarge" to magnify the image)
Published in Physics Letters Vol 84B, no. 1 .
In the paper shared above (written by Dr. Philips with Ph.D. in particle physics), the author proposed that quarks are not discrete, fundamental objects but, instead, are composite, tightly knit clusters of three particles called "omegon". Protons and neutrons, which are each made up of three quarks, therefore contain nine omegons. These basic hadrons have ten different flavours, and each determines its own type of quarks...
continued in
http://www.pbase.com/pegasdvd/image/50672151/original or http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9
(Use "enlarge" to magnify the image)
What do you think of it? For fellow QCD Ph.D.s or particle enthusiasts. Do you see any problem with it?
adron
P.S. Does anyone know of any free PDF hosting site aside from Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it.
Igor - 13 Oct 2005 16:46 GMT > http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9 > or [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one > (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it. This is not exactly a new idea. The concept of quarks (and leptons) being made up of even smaller particles has been around for a while. The most interesting model was one proposed a couple of decades ago called Technicolor. The main problem is that there would have to be a very strong binding force that holds these things together. AFAIK, nothing has ever come from these theories.
Puppet_Sock - 13 Oct 2005 17:13 GMT [snip]
> This is not exactly a new idea. The concept of quarks (and leptons) > being made up of even smaller particles has been around for a while. > The most interesting model was one proposed a couple of decades ago > called Technicolor. The main problem is that there would have to be a > very strong binding force that holds these things together. AFAIK, > nothing has ever come from these theories. Yes, exactly. That and so far no clear experimental signal for such components existing. There was a brief flurry of activity a few years ago when it looked like deep inelastic scattering data pointed at such. That has not seemed to go anywhere. Also, what happened to neutrino oscilations? That would seem to require some sort of composite model for at least neutrinos.
The buzz word for this topic is prion, which is a common term for supposed components of quarks. Socks
adron - 13 Oct 2005 17:35 GMT > [snip] > > This is not exactly a new idea. The concept of quarks (and leptons) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > supposed components of quarks. > Socks Actually, the paper was written in 1979 :)
I just don't know what to make of it all these years because QCD math is not exactly easy. I was just asking if anything is wrong with it after 26 years of experimental data. Does it still tally or go against any of the finding in the Particle Data Group (that paper specifically)?
If one of you QCD specialists, have time, pls. take a look at the paper by Dr. Philips. He talked about the subquarks being magnetic monopoles linked by some kind of fluxes. Jay Yablon if you are able to read this, pls. kindly evaluate it and let me know what you think. It's Yablon magnetic monopole stuff that made me remember this paper written by Dr. Philips and want some comments from killer QCD gurus. Have anyone seen Bjoern? Is he ok or Heymannized?
adron
Jay R. Yablon - 13 Oct 2005 20:59 GMT Hi Adron,
I know that Bjoern started a university teaching position last month as well as moved, so he may have his hands full with other things.
I actually think all of the elementary fermions contain two internal symmetries: one is the STRONG leptoquark symmetry which gives a fermion one of three colors or a lepton number; the other is WEAK isospin symmetry which makes a fermion either isospin up or isospin down. This is the most elegant way to account for the "redundancy" wherein both quark and leptons have weak isospin. That is, I believe the isospin redundancy is a very direct indicator that the internal symmetries of the elementary fermions are leptoquark color, and isospin up and down. WEAK isospin is a redundancy of STRONG leptoquark symmetry; while the STRONG symmetry of leptons and quarks at high energy is a redundancy of WEAK isospin and this is where weak and strong interactions end up being joined at the hip with a WEAK isospin and a STRONG leptoquark "preon." Look at section 12.2 in Volovik for details; I agree with everything there, except for the holon / spinon stuff which, back in my days at M.I.T., we used to call a "kludge" (maybe they still do, some things at the 'tute don't change.) The holon / spinon stuff is an inelegant, and, I believe, merely interim way of dealing with the spins pending something more compelling.
Spin, of course, is a symmetry emanating from spacetime, as opposed to the internal symmetries that arise from the generators of Yang Mills / Lie algebras. The additional degrees of freedom that come about from having magnetic-type charges in addition to electric-type charges actually allow us to use everything in Volovik section 12.2 regarding internal symmetry, and also to give spin 1/2 to each of the holons and the spinons, and to have the composite particle that they form ALSO be spin 1/2. That is, we all learned that 1+1 = 2, but here, we can actually arrive at 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/2. I spent over 20 years trying to figure out how to do this once I realized that the weak isospin redundancy lends itself to a preonic decomposition of the fermion, and now I have found that the magnetic monopoles are the key to this and in particular the chiral connections in http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223 are the starting point for this development.
I will develop this in detail in a future paper, but this funny 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/2 arithmetic actually has it basis in the Weyl representation of the Dirac equation. Briefly, as is well-know, one can "add" a left-handed massless spin 1/2 fermion f_L to a right handed massless spin 1/2 fermion f_R to still arrive at a spin massive 1/2 massive f = f_L _ f_R, and insofar as the spins go, we have applied 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/2 due to the unique algebraic characteristics of the Dirac matrices which I regard as the "generators" of spacetime symmetry much as, for example, the Pauli matrices are the generators of SU(2) internal symmetry of the Gell Mann matrices are the generators of SU(3). (This also leads me to the view that the Dirac gamma-5 is a direct indicator of a fifth, timelike, axial spacetime dimension and that time is therefore a plane not a line and that the observed mass of a particle depends on how it travels through the time plane relative to how we travel through the time plane, and that Feynman's discovery that particles can travel "backward" through time -- essentially defining an antiparticle -- should be extended to particles being able to travel sideways through time (for a massless particle) or at an "angle" through time (for a massive particle), but that too, is another full paper.)
As it turns out, the findings in http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0508257 and http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223 regarding magnetic monopoles, once applied to weak and strong interactions, allows the Fermions to be composed out of Volovik's holons and spinons, but also allow each of these to have spin 1/2 because of the 1/2 + 1/2 = 1/2 arithmetic of the Dirac matrices based on the connection between chirality and magnetic monopoles developed in http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223. This all takes place through an elegant mathematical conspiracy involving all of a) weak isospin and strong leptoquark internal symmetry, b) the (broken) duality symmetry of electric and magnetic charges, and the c) chiral properties of Dirac's gamma matrices.
And somewhere in the middle of all this, though have not yet nailed it in detail, is, I believe, a resolution to the Fermion mass problem, that is, the question of why the fermions have the masses they have.
Jay.
 Signature _____________________________ Jay R. Yablon 910 Northumberland Drive Schenectady, New York 12309-2814 Phone / Fax: 518-377-6737 Email: jyablon@nycap.rr.com
> >> [snip] [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > adron adron - 14 Oct 2005 00:43 GMT > Hi Adron, > > I know that Bjoern started a university teaching position last month as well > as moved, so he may have his hands full with other things. Too bad. The genius from Heidenberg doesn't have any DVD or CD player. When he moved, he may have part with his computer as well. Should have posted the paper a few months ago.
> I actually think all of the elementary fermions contain two internal > symmetries: one is the STRONG leptoquark symmetry which gives a fermion one [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0509223 are the starting point for this > development. I'm comparing your work and that of Dr. Philips to see the similarity and difference. You both claim the quarks have magnetic monopole qualities which seem to be inherent.. although he went one step further and state how 3 subquarks or sub magnetic monopole could be behind it all. Well. I'm looking for a flaw in his paper, remember he published it in 1979. Maybe your stuff is the more updated one. I wonder what would happen if you extend your model to 3 subquark or sub monopole system, would it still be valid? I'm still analyzing your stuff. Thanks.
Adron
> I will develop this in detail in a future paper, but this funny 1/2 + 1/2 = > 1/2 arithmetic actually has it basis in the Weyl representation of the Dirac [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > > > adron FrediFizzx - 14 Oct 2005 02:45 GMT | > Hi Adron, | > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | When he moved, he may have part with his computer as well. Should | have posted the paper a few months ago. Is that you James? Or is it Epsilon or p6? ;-) Why do you keep changing your handle?
Clearly you have not read Jay's first paper yet at,
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0508257 .
As you would have seen the acknowledgment that Jay gave to Bjoern for his excellent help with it and realize that they are "in communication" with each other.
You should read and study the paper. It is very good work that Jay and Bjoern did, IMHO. I am sure that Jay would be happy to answer any specific questions or comments you might have about it.
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Jay R. Yablon - 22 Oct 2005 04:09 GMT > I'm comparing your work and that of Dr. Philips to see the similarity > and difference. You both claim the quarks have magnetic monopole [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Adron Any further thoughts, Adron?
Jay.
adron - 22 Oct 2005 05:31 GMT > > I'm comparing your work and that of Dr. Philips to see the similarity > > and difference. You both claim the quarks have magnetic monopole [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Jay. Interesting but we need solid evidence of it. I guess I'll just wait for results rather than engaging in highly speculative discussions.
Sometimes I thought of Seto, Tomgee, etc. and the many years (average of a decade) they wasted time speculating and imagining. In those years. They could become brain surgeons or other professionals.
Are you a physics student? I guess only physics students must tackle the causal mechanisms of things because they are equipped with the right tools that Seto, Tomgee don't have.
Because I'm not a physics student. I think I'll get to other matters of more relevance to life. In months ahead. I'll focus on neurobiology and stem cell biology. Maybe next year when Eotvos shows a non-null or the Super Hadron Collider is finished. I could go back to physics.
Goodluck to your papers. Hope you can get them published in journals for quick scrutiny and experimental testing and validation.. which is all that matters in physics. It is results that is the aim of all hypothetical models.
adron
Jay R. Yablon - 15 Oct 2005 17:49 GMT If you want to see a preview with more detail about my work on the timelike, fifth, axial dimension of spacetime as alluded to below, please take a look at my web site at http://home.nycap.rr.com/jry/FermionMass.htm, where I am starting to post previews of work that I hope to publish in the upcoming months.
I have begun by posting a "Paper Preview: Five Dimensional Spacetime with Axial Time, and the Geometric Origin of Mass."
This paper will show how if we regard the Dirac Matrices ?^U, U=0,1,2,3,5 as the structure generators of spacetime, that the ?^5 matrix becomes naturally associated with a fifth, timelike dimension of spacetime. This fifth, axial time dimension, together with the ordinary time dimension, defines a "time plane." This requires us to understand time as a plane through which particles can move at an "angle," and not merely as a line allowing forward and backward movement as first taught by Feynman. Importantly, the mass of a particle is understood to bear a relationship to how that particle moves through the time plane, relatively to how we, as observers, move through the time plane. The more a particle's motion through the time plane parallels our own, the larger is the mass we observe for that particle. Massless particles move through the time plane perpendicularly to how we, as observers, move through the time plane. In this way, one may be able to arrive at a strictly geometric understanding of gravitational mass. _____________________________ Jay R. Yablon Email: jyablon@nycap.rr.com
>(This also leads me to the view that the Dirac gamma-5 is a direct >indicator of a fifth, timelike, axial spacetime dimension and that time is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(for a massless particle) or at an "angle" through time (for a massive >particle), but that too, is another full paper.) h.poropudas@luukku.com - 17 Oct 2005 09:38 GMT > If you want to see a preview with more detail about my work on the timelike, > fifth, axial dimension of spacetime as alluded to below, please take a look [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > observers, move through the time plane. In this way, one may be able to > arrive at a strictly geometric understanding of gravitational mass. H-M's explanation origin electron's mass (this is different than our mass definition in Physics):
"electron's mass is only due expansion resistance of the Universe"
(in contracting part of the Universe mass is only due contraction resistance of the Universe)
Please take a look my summaries about H-M's drawings and explanations Readme.all, Readme.mid, Readme.see (ASCII-text summaries)
I have understood from these that mass is property that blocks those color electricity colors (changes them to black color = no color electricity).
I don't know at present how to apply H-M's definition to calculate masses of elementary particles. One application was H-M's explanation of quark content of the proton (five quarks and one of them is changed to black color electricity color due proton's mass).
Hannu
> _____________________________ > Jay R. Yablon [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >(for a massless particle) or at an "angle" through time (for a massive > >particle), but that too, is another full paper.) Dr Photon - 25 Oct 2005 17:17 GMT >Importantly, the mass of >a particle is understood to bear a relationship to how that particle moves [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >particles move through the time plane perpendicularly to how we, as >observers, move through the time plane. Hi Jay,
>From your previous post you also wrote "And somewhere in the middle of all this, though have not yet nailed it in detail, is, I believe, a resolution to the Fermion mass problem, that is, the question of why the fermions have the masses they have. " so I presume you don't just mean relativistic mass due to ordinary velocity, but also the rest masses of the particles due to some "sideways" velocity.
So the question I have is what is "we" referring to in the above paragraph? How can the particles we are composed of be different to the "we" that is observing them, or what exactly are you getting at here? What is an observer in your system?
regards,
br
h.poropudas@luukku.com - 15 Oct 2005 10:03 GMT > http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9 > or [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > What do you think of it? For fellow QCD Ph.D.s or particle > enthusiasts. Do you see any problem with it? H-M's drawing about proton and neutron contains five quarks !!!
In my summaries Readme.all, Readme.mid, Readme.see there is also nice H-M's explanation (methaphora about colored stick men) about isospin invariance (?) of proton and neutron (explanation why proton and neutron resembles each others !!!)
Please take a look from the ftp address mentioned my earlier recent writings in sci-groups.
> adron > > P.S. Does anyone know of any free PDF hosting site aside from > Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one > (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it. FrediFizzx - 15 Oct 2005 20:28 GMT [snip]
| adron | | P.S. Does anyone know of any free PDF hosting site aside from | Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one | (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it. Doesn't your ISP give you some free website space? Most do. What is it about? You can email it to me if you wish if it is about physics.
FrediFizzx
http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.pdf or postscript http://www.vacuum-physics.com/QVC/quantum_vacuum_charge.ps
http://www.vacuum-physics.com
Golden Boar - 25 Oct 2005 14:13 GMT > http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9 > or [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Arvix?? I spent 5 hours buying a PDF editor and creating one > (with 9 pages) and don't know where to put it. This sounds a bit like something I was discussing a while back in the thread "Introducing Chromotron, the leptoquark!".
hanson - 25 Oct 2005 15:34 GMT >> Published in Physics Letters Vol 84B, no. 1 . >>.... the author proposed that quarks are not discrete, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> http://imageevent.com/hadronmania/hadroninquiry?p=0&b=-1&m=24&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=9 >> Do you see any problem with it? [Golden]
> This sounds a bit like something I was discussing a while back in the > thread "Introducing Chromotron, the leptoquark!". [hanson] That particle subdivision may go much much further, if self-similarity is projected to hold... for such a case can be made based on the correlations that the Planck mass consists of 1 mole = ~6E+23 electron masses, as does the H-radius measure 1 mole of Planck length units, and the atomic time tau being 1 mole of Planck time units... so, 3 quarks may be just the beginning of looking deeper into the matter of things: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/0f1a7daa49aa8cf3 http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/70e4aba63b7351ba hanson
dishington - 25 Oct 2005 22:53 GMT Check;
http://www.lafn.org/~bd261 Note 1, etc.
Roland Dishington
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