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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Particle Physics / March 2006



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A serious look (& Intro) at Bohm Implicate Order & Explanation of Entanglement

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quantum stuff - 18 Mar 2006 11:03 GMT
For days I was grappling with the mystery behind entanglement and
searched the literature. Do you know where John Bell got the
inspiration to pursue the entanglement thing and the subsequent
experimental proof by Aspect. It's from David Bohm. Bohm believes the
reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one
another regardless of the distance separating them is not because
they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth,
but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at
some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual
entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental
something. He has such a sophisticated idea of it and entanglement.
What is your thought of the following? I am thinking if it's plausible
(if it is, the implications would be huge).

"Enfolded Orders and Unfolded Realities

One of Bohm's most startling assertions is that the tangible
reality of our everyday lives is really a kind of projection,
like a holographic image. Underlying it is a deeper order of
existence, a vast and more primary level of reality that gives
birth to all the objects and appearances of our physical world in
much the same way that a piece of holographic film gives birth to
a hologram. Bohm calls this deeper level of reality the Implicate
(which means "enfolded") order, and he refers to our own level
of existence as the explicate, or unfolded, order.

He uses these terms because he sees the manifestation of all
forms in the universe as the result of countless enfoldings and
unfoldings between these two orders. For example, Bohm believes
an electron is not one thing but a totality or ensemble enfolded
throughout the whole of space. When an instrument detects the
presence of a single electron it is simply because one aspect of
the electron's ensemble has unfolded, similar to the way an ink
drop unfolds out of the glycerine, at that particular location.
When an electron appears to be moving it is due to a continuous
series of such unfoldments and enfoldments.

Put another way, electrons and all other particles are no more
substantive or permanent than the form a geyser of water takes as
it gushes out of a fountain. They are sustained by a constant
influx from the implicate order, and when a particle appears to
be destroyed, it is not lost. It has merely enfolded back into
the deeper order from which it sprang. A piece of holographic
film and the image it generates are also an example of an
implicate and explicate order. The film is an implicate order
because the image encoded in its interference patterns is a
hidden totality enfolded throughout the whole. The hologram
projected from the film is an explicate order because it
represents the unfolded and perceptible version of the image.

The constant and flowing exchange between the two orders explains
how particles can shapeshift from one kind of particle to another.
Such shiftings can be viewed as one particle, say an electron,
enfolding back into the implicate order while another, a photon,
unfolds and takes its place. It also explains how a quantum can
manifest
as either a particle or a wave. According to Bohm, both aspects are
always enfolded in a quantum's ensemble, but the way an observer
interacts with the ensemble determines which aspect unfolds and
which remains hidden. As such, the role an observer plays in
determining the form a quantum takes may be no more mysterious than
the fact that the way a jeweller manipulates a gem determines
which of its facets become visible and which do not. Because the
term hologram usually refers to an image that is static and does
not convey the dynamic and ever active nature of the incalculable
enfoldings and unfoldings that moment by moment create our
universe, Bohm prefers to describe the universe not as a hologram,
but as a holomovement.

The existence of a deeper and holographically organized order
also explains why reality becomes nonlocal at the subquantum
level. As we have seen, when something is organized
holographically, all semblance of location breaks down. Saying
that every part of a piece of holographic film contains all the
information possessed by the whole is really just another way of
saying that the information is distributed nonlocally. Hence, if
the universe is organized according to holographic principles,
it, too, would be expected to have nonlocal properties.

The Undivided Wholeness of All Things

Most mind-boggling of all are Bohm's fully developed ideas about
wholeness. Because everything in the cosmos is made out of the
seamless holographic fabric of the implicate order, he believes
it is as meaningless to view the universe as composed of "parts,"
as it is to view the different geysers in a fountain as separate
from the water out of which they flow. An electron is not an
"elementary particle." It is Just a name given to a certain
aspect of the holomovement. Dividing reality up into parts and
then naming those parts is always arbitrary a product of
convention, because subatomic particles, and everything else in
the universe, are no more separate from one another than
different patterns in an ornate carpet."

------------------
quantum stuff - 18 Mar 2006 21:50 GMT
> For days I was grappling with the mystery behind entanglement and
> searched the literature. Do you know where John Bell got the
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>
> ------------------

BTW.. there are 2 kinds of Bohm interpretations. The 2nd is
less known. Bohm made the "pilot wave" interpretation when he
was young. But when he got old. He changed his QM interpretation
to that of Implicate Order where particle is not always particle
but part of the hologram and holomovement. This latter
made sense and can explain why electron is point particle
and how photon can turn into electron-positron pair when
interacting with nucleus. Note many folks like srp, freddifizzx,
thomson, lockyer, etc. are trying to figure out the structure of
electrons and how particle can change into another particle(s).
as if they are made of structures. Bohm Implicate Order
would make it unnecessary. I agree that mathematics is
the language of physics and one can be satisfied with
mathematical model. But we need a physical causal
mechanism and Bohm Implicate Order is the logical one.
You can use quantum electrodynamics and mathematical
model to explain every interaction of every photon and
wavelength changes, etc. when explaining a Mona Lisa pic
to a group of blind folks. But if they can see it. It's worth a
whole world. Likewise, all the mathematical models may
describe reality. But knowing how they are produced would
be a whole world. Remember there are two kinds of Bohm
QM interpretation. The pilot wave and Implicate Order which
is opposite of each other. The Implicate Order thing is the
most sophisticated and I guess closer to reality as its the
only one powerful enough to explain entanglement and
correlerations at distances so far away.

quant
Igor - 19 Mar 2006 20:56 GMT
> > For days I was grappling with the mystery behind entanglement and
> > searched the literature. Do you know where John Bell got the
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
> quant

Actually, it was de Broglie that came up with the idea of the guiding
or pilot wave model.  He called it the theory of double solution, since
he believed that every quantum wave equation had two distinct types of
solutions.  One corresponded to the traditional probablility waves and
the other represented the actual physical particle.  This notion
probably would have died in obscurity if Bohm hadn't have picked up on
the idea a few years later and created a more comprehensive version.
RadicalLibertarian@hotmail.com - 20 Mar 2006 01:58 GMT
The idea of wholeness is very interesting. Seemingly stupid
philosophical junk at first glance. But, a very serious issue which
strikes right to the very heart of empiricism and the scientific
method.

A test tube is connected to the rest of the universe, and vice versa.

You observe the test tube. But, if you only observed the testtube, did
you really observe it ? After all - it IS connected to this gigantic
cosmos thing, and while most people are willing to sharpen up their
Occam's razor and just disregard deep space, you simply cannot deny
that your observation of the test tube was fundamentally incomplete.

Most people dont really care because it does not seem to affect
anything, but the paradox remains.
quantum stuff - 20 Mar 2006 02:16 GMT
> The idea of wholeness is very interesting. Seemingly stupid
> philosophical junk at first glance. But, a very serious issue which
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Most people dont really care because it does not seem to affect
> anything, but the paradox remains.

If Bohm Implicate Order has any sort of basis. It has to
encompass Special and General Relativity. So it boils down
to the question of what is space and time. The great
mathematician used to say "The main postulate of GR is
no prior geometry" so the causal mechanism of GR may be
related to the Bohm Implicate Order. We need to figure out
how space and time can be seemingly objective yet unreal.
I guess SR and GR is just the beginning.

As I was saying in the other thread.
Bohm Implicate Order is like a software written beyond
mathematics. So there would come a time that physics
may end because mathematics may no longer be
adequate to model the timeless spaceless Implicate
Order (if you'd define physics as a descriptive field
involved with the physical and mathematical aspect).
This is also why scientists are not interested
in Bohm deeper views because it can't be model
mathematically (I realized this). For me. I guess I can
be satisfied just knowing the edge of physicality.. like how
exactly does a photon turn into electron-positron pair when
interacting with nucleus (whether there is a mechanical
transformation and its correlates) and what exactly is
spacetime. After they are known in the future. We can
be satisfied with it as we have explored the lowest
region of physicality. Above the Implicate Order there may
higher Implicate Order and higher still and we no longer
have the tools to probe them... although it is possible
they can still be modelled mathematically.

quant
 
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