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Natural Science Forum / Physics / Particle Physics / December 2006



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double-slit experiment

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Hartmut Folter - 09 Dec 2006 22:14 GMT
the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
validity of Schrodinger's wave equation

BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
NOT the wave properties of particles

in fact, since there is not even a hypothesis wherby the wave equation defaults to
Newtonian mechanics under certain circumstances, I highly doubt its validity

I think it is more likely that particles can only be characterized as waves, NOT be waves,
or exhibit wave properties, at least with the instrumental analysis we have today

for instance
amplitude is a power function - easily explained by momentum of particles
frequency - easily explained by flux of particles over time
wavelength - simply said, particles can have color, due to absorption or lack thereof

I suggest if you pipe the known accuracy and precision of today's measurement equipment,
into the wave equation, the probailities of phenomena would fall apart

what does this have to do with origins? validates entropy arguments against evolution,
since the wave equation is invalid

although, Schrodinger was VERY CORRECT, in his Copenhagen Interpretation, in that
you must consider the measurement appartus (observer) introduced into a system
as a valid variable

Cramer's Transactional interpretation, leads to infinite loops of feedback in time
mechanisms

Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation, leads to variances increasing, from a relatively
low level of variance

I suggest this all leads us to a consensual reality model of the universe, granted
our particular consents may not be important in every situation, BUT, the fact that
physics seem to exist in such concepts of space and time that have no fabric,
they are a subset of such by a ven diagram
flabbergasted - 09 Dec 2006 23:34 GMT
> the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
> validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
>
> BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
> NOT the wave properties of particles

Do you ever understand anything that you read?  Try reading the
following article.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1

Pay particular attention to the section containing the statement

"The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one
electron in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira
Tonomura and co-workers at Hitachi in 1989 when they observed the build
up of the fringe pattern with a very weak electron source and an
electron biprism (American Journal of Physics 57 117-120)."

Be sure to read the followup letters further down the page.  There is a
beautiful series of photos showing the build up of the interference
pattern from a series of individual electrons passing through the
system.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1/1/bologna%2Dimage

This beautiful experiment shows both the particle and wave behavior of
the electron in a single experiment.

The rest of your drivel doesn't bear comment.
Hartmut Folter - 10 Dec 2006 01:13 GMT
>The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one electron
>in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira Tonomura and
>co-workers at Hitachi in 1989 when they observed the build up of the
>fringe pattern with a very weak electron source and an electron biprism

the work you cite, contains no experimental statistics

what was the precision of the electron generator at the weak source?
how was such precision measured?

experiments without statistics are not valid scientific evidence
wf3h - 10 Dec 2006 01:40 GMT
> >The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one electron
> >in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira Tonomura and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> experiments without statistics are not valid scientific evidence

tell it to galileo and newton.
flabbergasted - 10 Dec 2006 02:38 GMT
> >The next milestone - an experiment in which there was just one electron
> >in the apparatus at any one time - was reached by Akira Tonomura and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> experiments without statistics are not valid scientific evidence

The references to the refereed journal articles are given in the
article.  If you don't know how to do a literature search, then you
shouldn't be lecturing others on what constitutes valid scientific
evidence.
Lee Jay - 10 Dec 2006 20:19 GMT
> Be sure to read the followup letters further down the page.  There is a
> beautiful series of photos showing the build up of the interference
> pattern from a series of individual electrons passing through the
> system.
>
> http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1/1/bologna%2Dimage

That's just so cool it hurts!

Lee Jay
carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu - 10 Dec 2006 22:13 GMT
In talk.origins flabbergasted <bacon@rigidrotor.com> wrote:
>> the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
>> validity of Schrodinger's wave equation

>> BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
>> NOT the wave properties of particles

> Do you ever understand anything that you read?  Try reading the
> following article.

> http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/1

[...]
> Be sure to read the followup letters further down the page.  There is a
> beautiful series of photos showing the build up of the interference
> pattern from a series of individual electrons passing through the
> system.

You can also see a wmv movie of this:
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/em/doubleslit.cfm

Steve Carlip
Rusty Sites - 11 Dec 2006 00:22 GMT
> In talk.origins flabbergasted <bacon@rigidrotor.com> wrote:
>>> the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> You can also see a wmv movie of this:
> http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/em/doubleslit.cfm

Is that yellow box that says "Hitachi" a display connected to the
detector, a blowup of the detector, or something else, and isn't that
taking product placement a bit far?
Wakboth - 10 Dec 2006 07:10 GMT
Hartmut Folter kirjoitti:

> the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
> validity of Schrodinger's wave equation

More like De Broglie's wave-particle duality.

-- Wakboth
Robert Carnegie - 10 Dec 2006 19:57 GMT
> the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
> validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
>
> BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
> NOT the wave properties of particles

Is it possible that you mean "it only proves the wave properties of
particles, not the particle properties of waves"?

If so, would that even be controversial?  Do waves have particle
properties, particularly?  I mean waves in general, not photons and the
like.

And why aren't you cross-posting in alt.drugs.psychedelic this time?
neutralino@gmail.com - 10 Dec 2006 22:02 GMT
> the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
> validity of Schrodinger's wave equation
>
> BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
> NOT the wave properties of particles

You can repeat the experiment with neutrons and get similar results
(though I understand that the effect is a couple orders of magnitude
smaller).  The particle nature of waves can be demonstrated by the
photoelectric effect.

> in fact, since there is not even a hypothesis wherby the wave equation defaults to
> Newtonian mechanics under certain circumstances, I highly doubt its validity

Newtonian mechanics is just an aproximation of the more detailed
equations.

> I think it is more likely that particles can only be characterized as waves, NOT be waves,
> or exhibit wave properties, at least with the instrumental analysis we have today

In the end, photons are neither waves nor particles.  They are photons.
It is a finite ammount of energy that is moving between an electric
field and a magnetic field.

Amplitude is how much energy is moving, frequency is how fast it moves
from one to the other, and wavelength is a function of frequency and
permitivity/permisitivity of the medium.  Wavelength times frequency is
the velocity of propigation.

> for instance
> amplitude is a power function - easily explained by momentum of particles
> frequency - easily explained by flux of particles over time
> wavelength - simply said, particles can have color, due to absorption or lack thereof

Particles don't have colour, colour is an interpritation of frequency
ranges.  Colour applied to sub atomic particles is just shorthand...it
could just as easially been called "smell".

> I suggest if you pipe the known accuracy and precision of today's measurement equipment,
> into the wave equation, the probailities of phenomena would fall apart
>
> what does this have to do with origins?

nothing at all.
carlip-nospam@physics.ucdavis.edu - 10 Dec 2006 22:18 GMT
In talk.origins neutralino@gmail.com wrote:

>> the double-slit experiment is typically cited as empirical evidence of the
>> validity of Schrodinger's wave equation

>> BUT, the slit experiment, is ONE SIDED, it only proves the particle properties of waves,
>> NOT the wave properties of particles

> You can repeat the experiment with neutrons and get similar results
> (though I understand that the effect is a couple orders of magnitude
> smaller).  

You can also see interference of Buckyballs (C_60 and C_70), meso-tetraphenylporphyrin
(C_44 H_30 N_4), and even fluorinated fullerenes (C_60 F_48).  The latter has an
atomic weight of 1632 amu.  See http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/research/matterwave/.

Steve Carlip
Cygnus X-1 - 10 Dec 2006 23:57 GMT
> in fact, since there is not even a hypothesis wherby the wave equation
> defaults to
> Newtonian mechanics under certain circumstances, I highly doubt its validity

Bunk.

Using expectation values on the time-dependent Schrodinger wave
equation yields dV/dx = F = m*a.

I remember working this, either as a homework problem in quantum
mechanics or possibly in Ph.D Qualifier exams.

Might be able to find a version of the derivation in the Merzbacher or
Powell & Crasemann text.

Tom
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Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy
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Only knowledge is dangerous."  --Frank Herbert, "Dune Messiah"

THE_ONE - 15 Dec 2006 19:41 GMT
I have a question.

In the case of the Electron Double Slit experiment, the question is
where is there a case of frequency involved in the experiment that is
responsible for the wave interference pattern to be at the outcome of
the experiment ?

I assume that by releasing only one ELECTRON at a time, there is no
continuous frequency involved !

THE_ONE
Lee Jay - 15 Dec 2006 19:47 GMT
> I have a question.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I assume that by releasing only one ELECTRON at a time, there is no
> continuous frequency involved !

You're assumption is incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-Particle_duality#de_Broglie.27s_hypothesis

Lee Jay
 
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